So, There's No Hope. (Unhinged And Unwarranted Speculation)

[Isilel]

On 1/11/2026 at 3:59 AM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The children of Ashyn betrayed and imprisoned Ba-Ado Mishram at a peace meeting. 

 

So, there is something that I wanted to point out - you are being very inconsistent, IMHO. On one hand, you admire Scadrians for following Preservation's plan and praise "thy will be done" stance vis-a-vis gods. Yet here, when Rosharan humans followed a direct command of their god - it is _them_ whom you call treacherous, not the supposedly benevolent honorable(heh) god whom they have obeyed. That's the problem with "thy will be done" - it is only as good as a given god's plan.

You also continue to blame humans for the Recreance, when we now know that Radiant spren had initially offered the powers and bonds entirely of their own volition and on their own initiative, that the decision to break oaths was mutual and again made because Honor suddenly told them, in no uncertain terms that these powers were going to destroy Roshar!

 

On 1/11/2026 at 3:59 AM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

This was after violating the promise to stay in Shin Kak Nish. 

 

They couldn't really survive there, though at that point in time. The whole thing is rather reminiscent of the fall of the Roman Empire to the Goths, who were also given "refuge", but denied means to support themselves, so that they were forced to sell their children into slavery for food. Eventually they rebelled and the rest is history.

 

On 1/11/2026 at 3:59 AM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

This was also after Honor, Cultivation, and the spren all abandoned and betrayed the singers in favor of humanity, leaving them with only Odium and the unmade as gods.  This was after destroying their original homeworld

 

We don't yet know who betrayed whom first. Didn't Leshwi say "they (i.e. spren)  have finally  forgiven  us" or something along these lines, when she learned about Venli and Timbre?

As to Ashyn, while humans weren't blameless, again you blame them exclusively, when the lion's share of responsibility belonged to the gods involved.

As I have already pointed out earlier in the thread, I wholly agree with you about singers not being given enough focus and dislike it.

Oddly, there is the same tendency in Scadrial books. None of the PoV characters are proper skaa. IIRC, Dockson didn't have a PoV, or if he had,  it was very brief.

In part it was because Sanderson flubbed his worldbuilding a bit - in this grim, cruel world he made Vin and Spook "too young for the mills/mines" as teenagers! When iRL they would have been old enough to work at 7 or so if enslaved, or even merely poor. 

And I am not sure that those missing skaa PoVs would have been as complimentary to Kelsier as you believe, given that his actions often lead to bloody repression of people for whom he had ostensibly intervened. Like, when he had saved that girl from rape-murder and killed Tresting and Co didn't he expect most of the plantation skaa to get slaughtered in retaliation? And wasn't he rather surprised to discover that they had survived and joined Yeden's army?

It is easy to say that the skaa situation was already untenable - when faced with imminent death or that of loved ones as a result of someone else's actions, most people aren't appreciative. 

Finally, I am not sure why you think that so much of Scadrial's population resides in Elendel Basin in Era 2 - I was under impression that the Mawlish were significantly more numerous. Yes, their weather conditions are harsher, but they have learned to deal with them and even with the Ice Death, after the Catacendre they were much more numerous than the survivors of the Final Empire.

 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

 

11 hours ago, Isilel said:

In part it was because Sanderson flubbed his worldbuilding a bit - in this grim, cruel world he made Vin and Spook "too young for the mills/mines" as teenagers! When iRL they would have been old enough to work at 7 or so if enslaved, or even merely poor. 

SERIOUS EXPLANATION

Actually, I think that that's more realistic than the alternative for not-enslaved youth.  Child labor, at least in the specific form we see in the mines and mills of the industrial revolution, didn't really become a thing until the industrial revolution, simply because it was the industrial revolution that made such exploitation possible with improvements in lighting and heating making it possible to get enough output from such small workers as to be functional, and improvements in agricultural productivity allowing for fewer workers in the fields.

Improvements in medicine also allowed for greater exploitation of humans--the susceptibility of children and elderly to disease is much higher without advanced medicine, and thus pre-modern non-enslaved populations tend not to work their children and elderly in tight, cramped conditions in which sickness is known to spread (they tended to work them in other conditions, in different ways, but not mills or mines).

In a society without indoor plumbing, quite a lot of effort goes into getting water, either from wells or pumps.  In a society without indoor heating, quite a lot of effort goes into tending the hearth (the Greeks and Romans had a goddess whose entire job was the tending of the hearth--putting it up there with war, death, love, etc. as one of the basic things people do).  And so on and so on and so on, and you'd be surprised how much of it was done by children and teenagers.  Every quality-of-life improvement that the Final Empire doesn't have places it further and further away from the kind of society that can sustainably have the specific flavor of youth-labor exploitation where it's the rule rather than the exception for non-enslaved kids and teenagers to work in mills and mines (arguably it isn't sustainable in real life, and is associated with specific civilizations during times of great change).  And if there's one thing Rashek's going for, it's a stable-period kind of tyranny, not a transitional-period kind.

Also, Vin was on the run for much of her childhood and then living with Camon's gang on the relative downlow, so she's actively trying to stay on the fringes of Luthadel's society, which means her situation isn't as representative of how most of the skaa in Luthadel live as it might seem.  And Spook's uncle, Clubs, was a skilled carpenter who took him in (successful enough at his carpentry that nobody thinks it's weird that he owns his own place, which believably puts Clubs in a social strata where Spook being an apprentice carpenter to him and thus spending his time at Clubs' place rather than working for someone else checks out)

So, I'd argue that, rather than mister Sanderson missing a trick here, it's him and his editor Moshe Feder keeping the worldbuilding on point.

SILLY EXPLANATION

But of course!  Rashek knows that he would get arrested for violating child labor laws!  What do you think he is, some kind of... unscrupulous person?  I'll have you know that the Interdimensional Cosmere Kid/Youth Betterment Service is very active in making sure that everybody in the cosmere has an entirely wholesome and pleasant childhood, and is in no way understaffed, dealing with a backlog going back to before the Shattering, incompetent, lazy, or a front for a dog-fighting ring that gets its money by scamming elderly dragons into donating their hoards to "charity".

Click here to donate to I.C.K.Y.B.S.

Edited January 21 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Isilel]

16 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Actually, I think that that's more realistic than the alternative for not-enslaved youth.  Child labor, at least in the specific form we see in the mines and mills of the industrial revolution, didn't really become a thing until the industrial revolution, simply because it was the industrial revolution that made such

 

Nothing on the substance of my argument that you condemn Rosharan humans for the same things that you praise First Era Scadrians for?

But about child labor - you are wrong, children worked in mines since time immemorial:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/5wHsCeWHFw

Not to mention that Final Empire was frozen at about the stage of early industrial revolution, but without firearms, which is why they had mills in the sense of factories, which Vin pretended to be too young to be of age to work at, as a teenager(!).

Not sure what you are on about health and better conditions during the industrial revolution, which both declined catastrophically iRL. They only began to improve towards the late 19th century. 

Nor do I understand why you think that enslaved children iRL led lives of leisurely idelness at any point in history, like Spook seems to have done and Vin pretended to.

Apprenticeships throughout the ages also commonly started at the age of 7. Until obligatory schooling was introduced, that is. 

This inconsistency with the grimmer aspects of FE worldbuilding stuck out like a sore thumb to me from my first read.

And it was a missed opportunity to have Spook be a proper skaa, with the requisite life experience.

Edited January 21 by Isilel

[therunner he/him]

23 hours ago, Isilel said:

We don't yet know who betrayed whom first. Didn't Leshwi say "they (i.e. spren)  have finally  forgiven  us" or something along these lines, when she learned about Venli and Timbre?

Yes she did. 

From what we know the timeline was :

1. Humans don't fit in Shinovar -> want more space
2. Singers don't want humans out -> Some humans try to go out anyway, wars break out
3. Singers betray Honor and align with Odium, become Fused -> spren likely abandon them at this point at latest
4. Honor creates Heralds
   • All of the above points is roughly few decades
5. Centuries/millennia later -> spren bond humans creating Surgebinders

From what has been revealed, Singers turned away from Honor/Cultivation and signed with Odium, because they didn't want to obey them in helping humans, and didn't want humans leaving Shinovar.

This could be considered an example of Singers also not respecting the gods, just like humans don't.

Edited January 21 by therunner

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Nothing on the substance of my argument that you condemn Rosharan humans for the same things that you praise First Era Scadrians for?

If I respond to everything all at once, the post will be too long.

Also, I do not regard the Rosharan humans' devotion as sincere.  They obeyed only when it benefitted them, and disobeyed otherwise.  That puts them in the same category as Wax and Wayne, of whom I do not approve.

As for the radiant spren at that point, as far as I can tell they were already bonded (otherwise the Radiants wouldn't be Radiants), and I'm not sure, after Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth, that I regard bonded spren as truly having free will.

@TheRunner, that's not how I remember the order of those happenings, but, then again, I'm stupid and can't find my notes on Wind and Truth.

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

But about child labor - you are wrong, children worked in mines since time immemorial:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/5wHsCeWHFw

I was talking about non-enslaved children, and your counterexample is an enslaved child.  I'm not sure that that actually contradicts what I wrote.  I guess I phrased my prior post poorly, I was trying to say that child labor of the specific type associated with the mills and mines of the industrial era was the exception rather than the rule for non-enslaved children prior to the industrial revolution, because other forms of child labor were the norm for such, being so normalized and ubiquitous as to not be recognized as labor but seen as necessary functions of living.

But that's probably outside the scope of this thread.

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Nor do I understand why you think that enslaved children iRL led lives of leisurely idelness at any point in history, like Spook seems to have done and Vin pretended to.

I did not mean to imply that I thought enslaved children lived "lives of leisurely idleness".  I meant to imply that the vast majority of non-enslaved children in history lived lives that contained leisure and idleness in addition to an almost-unimaginable-to-us amount of work.

I would dispute your characterization of Spook as having led a life of leisurely idleness relative to, say, Elend Venture, though I would say that it could be described that way relative to, say, Jassa.

  

On 1/19/2026 at 11:02 PM, therunner said:

BTW did you finally read The Sunlit Man, or Emberdark? If so, I would love to hear your opinion on Scadrians there.

No, my copy of Isles Of The Emberdark has not arrived yet.  I kind of dread it a little, since you're clearly looking forward to me reading it, and you don't seem to be alone in that.

I have not read The Sunlit Man.

Edited January 21 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

As for the radiant spren at that point, as far as I can tell they were already bonded (otherwise the Radiants wouldn't be Radiants), and I'm not sure, after Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth, that I regard bonded spren as truly having free will.

Really? Why is that?

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Just now, Frustration said:

Really? Why is that?

the Nahel bond is a sharing of thoughts, of feelings, of intentions, of soul.  The Radiants' priorities become their spren's priorities.  The Radiants' values become their spren's values.  And all the while, the spren is convinced that these are his or her own feelings and thoughts, because the Radiant genuinely thinks that they are the spren's feelings and thoughts.  The Radiants do not want to blame themselves, they want the spren to choose it of their own free will and volition.  So that's exactly what happens.  

Much of this is almost certainly unconscious and unintentional (Kaladin and Sylphrena both seem to think of Sylphrena as having free will), but it's hard not to see echoes of Navani subsuming the sibling and Sja-anat's "enlightenment" of her forcibly-adopted "children" in the way that bonded spren have, throughout the series, prioritized their radiants over themselves, over Honor (after Taravangian took up Honor), over principles, over everything.

Every time a bonded spren insists it's choosing for itself I just can't stop thinking about those poor corrupted Oathgate-spren insisting that they're acting of their own volition.

If the protagonists of Stormlight lived their oaths and kept their promises with the same constancy and fullness as their spren show in their devotion to them, I'd regard the influence as being more mutual (both parties giving up some of their free will), but, as-is, Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth show that the Nahel bond can be exploitative and abusive, and my paranoid dumb-as-a-rock lizard-brain goes NONONOBADBADBADRUNRUNRUN whenever it recognizes the pattern of Dubious Consent or Questionable Volition, especially when that pattern links to the pattern of Learning To Break Rules, Compromise, And Do Things One's Younger Self Would Not Approve Of.

Oh, rusts, ruins, streaks, beans, shades, storms, and almonds... that's what's wrong with me.

I look at the nahel bond, and see my younger self, the memory of being slowly subsumed.  The justifications for everything, the testing of boundaries, every reasonable and nuanced persuasive argument for why I should stop refusing and kill my conscience.  At my moment of truth, I refused to do what I knew was wrong; I ended the love that could have defined my life, for right, for good, for principle, for my faith, for my soul, for nothing that can be measured and weighted or proven but everything that's actually true and real.

I just realized why I like the stories I like.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

the Nahel bond is a sharing of thoughts, of feelings, of intentions, of soul.  The Radiants' priorities become their spren's priorities.  The Radiants' values become their spren's values.  And all the while, the spren is convinced that these are his or her own feelings and thoughts, because the Radiant genuinely thinks that they are the spren's feelings and thoughts.  The Radiants do not want to blame themselves, they want the spren to choose it of their own free will and volition.  So that's exactly what happens.  

Much of this is almost certainly unconscious and unintentional (Kaladin and Sylphrena both seem to think of Sylphrena as having free will), but it's hard not to see echoes of Navani subsuming the sibling and Sja-anat's "enlightenment" of her forcibly-adopted "children" in the way that bonded spren have, throughout the series, prioritized their radiants over themselves, over Honor (after Taravangian took up Honor), over principles, over everything.

Every time a bonded spren insists it's choosing for itself I just can't stop thinking about those poor corrupted Oathgate-spren insisting that they're acting of their own volition.

Would it change you mind if the Oathgate spren WERE acting of their own will?

I can't say 100% that they were, but all evidence does support it.

Spoiler

Oversleep

Will there be Enlightened spren of other Radiant Orders than Truthwatchers, and why does Sja-anat like Truthwatchers so much?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason Sja-anat likes Truthwatcher spren the most is because they are the most willing. And she considers what she's doing offering Enlightenment, not corrupting. And she considers their willingness to be a part of this. Outside observers might consider her methods less... involving less volition on the parts of some of the spren that she touches. They might argue with her on that point. In this case, as it comes with the two Truthwatcher spren that you see in the books, they both went to what they are willingly. Fully willingly to become what they are. They are, you might say, participants in her plans. So that's why she wants them.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14512

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Oh, rusts, ruins, streaks, beans, shades, storms, and almonds... that's what's wrong with me.

I look at the nahel bond, and see my younger self, the memory of being slowly subsumed.  The justifications for everything, the testing of boundaries, every reasonable and nuanced persuasive argument for why I should stop refusing and kill my conscience.  At my moment of truth, I refused to do what I knew was wrong; I ended the love that could have defined my life, for right, for good, for principle, for my faith, for my soul, for nothing that can be measured and weighted or proven but everything that's actually true and real.

I just realized why I like the stories I like.

You did good king

Edited January 21 by Frustration

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Wow, I wish I had a magic "mister Sanderson is my friend and confirms my headcanon as canon despite it contradicting what the person I'm talking to gathered from reading the actual books" button.

Getting real darn tired of these WOBs.

I hope mister Sanderson starts answering all reader questions with "Read and Find Out" from now on.

Not mad at you, Frus, just mad at mister Sanderson.

Edited January 22 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Usseewa]

5 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Not mad at you, Frus, just mad at mister Sanderson.

I have this jokething in my head that goes "@Frustration, you really live up to your name!" or smth like that.. cuz u always give the perfect WoB to disprove a @Theory or something. Anyway that just means ur knowledgeable 'n stuff.

Edited January 22 by Theory

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Wow, I wish I had a magic "mister Sanderson is my friend and confirms my headcanon as canon despite it contradicting what the person I'm talking to gathered from reading the actual books" button.

I actually changed my username from Booknerd to Frustration because of that exact emotion.

 

8 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Getting real darn tired of these WOBs.

I hope mister Sanderson starts answering all reader questions with "Read and Find Out" from now on.

Please don't put that idea in his head, I live off of those.

9 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Not mad at you, Frus, just mad at mister Sanderson.

I know the pain all too well. You're beyond chill with me.

4 minutes ago, Theory said:

I have this jokething in my head that goes "@Frustration, you really live up to your name!" or smth like that.. cuz u always give the perfect WoB to disprove a @Theory or something. Anyway that just means ur knowledgeable 'n stuff.

Why thank you, I kind of built a name here off of it.

As for why:

See the linked thread above.

That day scarred me, and I decided to never be caught off guard by a WoB ever again.

Spoiler

JK jk. I just have an insatiable thirst for knowledge that led me to read every single WoB that we have.

Well, there might have been a little scarring involved.

 

[therunner he/him]

9 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

@TheRunner, that's not how I remember the order of those happenings,

Which part? 

• Oathpact was formed as reaction to Fused existing, and Honor being afraid Surges would destroy Roshar like they destroyed Ashyn. 
  • I.e. Singers must have joined Odium before Honor started actively supporting humans.
• Human Surgebinders only appeared in later desolations (known since Oathbringer I think), so spren didn't actively start supporting humans until much later

 

Conclusion, Singers betrayed Honor, Cultivation and spren and joined Odium during First Desolation.

 

That humans started the First Desolation after leaving Shinovar (after attempts to try and negotiate with Singers didn't go anywhere) is not in dispute I think.

Quote

As for the radiant spren at that point, as far as I can tell they were already bonded (otherwise the Radiants wouldn't be Radiants), and I'm not sure, after Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth, that I regard bonded spren as truly having free will.

Oh, really? 
The two books where bonded spren are shown to be actively, willfully and systematically lying to their bonded Radiants?

• Stormfather, who lied to Dalinar about the extent of his powers and purpose
• Pattern, who lied to Shallan since book one about being her only spren, and in RoW actively lies to her about using the seon box, leading her to think he is the traitor

How did they decide to do that, if they don't have free will?  Or continue to do that, if the bond brainwashes them?


It also disregards the fact that:

• Both the Radiant and the spren can choose to break the bond of their own volition
• Bonded spren are shown numerous times to question their Radiant and to push them to change
  • Syl with Kaladin in WoR -> she is pushing him to be better, how would that work if she doesn't have free will and is subsumed by his own thoughts?
    • By that rationale, are all good acts of bonded spren are then actually those of Radiants? Is it Kaladin who is pushing himself to be better, with no external influence?
  • Timbre and Venli in RoW -> Timbre is constantly disappointed in Venli and is pushing her to be more active and courageous, and contradicts her multiple times on her racist against humans (e.g. when Venli wants to ignore the imprisoned Radiants, Timbre pushes her to try and help them)
  • Stormfather and Dalinar -> They constantly but heads, and in WAT we see Stormfather constantly lied to him
  • Sigzil and Vienta -> If she was subsumed as you describe, she would not be angry at him for breaking the bond. After all, she is now free no? Or she would know exactly his intent to protect her (good) in breaking the oath.
    • Since this breaking of Oath is something you heavily critized Sigzil for earlier, I am a bit confused by your stance now. Wouldn't it be honorable to release another creature from bondage like that?

So I think there is a lot of evidence against your thesis. 

Sometimes people (and spren) just change, like everything else. Sometime it is the human who was more changing to do (most Radiant examples from books 1-3) and sometime it is the spren who has some growing to do (Navani and Sibling for example EDIT: though Navani also shifts her stances, and it has been only 10 days)

Quote

the Nahel bond is a sharing of thoughts, of feelings, of intentions, of soul.  The Radiants' priorities become their spren's priorities.  The Radiants' values become their spren's values.  And all the while, the spren is convinced that these are his or her own feelings and thoughts, because the Radiant genuinely thinks that they are the spren's feelings and thoughts.  The Radiants do not want to blame themselves, they want the spren to choose it of their own free will and volition.  So that's exactly what happens.  

Yes, Nahel bond is sharing of soul. 

Which means your argument can be trivially inverted, it is the Radiants who are subsumed by spren.

• Spren's values become Radiants values
  • Would TWoK Kaladin ever become friends with Lighteyes nobles? Must be spren influencing him!
• Spren's thoughts become their thoughts
  • Would Kaladin protect the man responsible for his brothers death? Must be spren brainwashing him!

 

Or you know, both the Radiants and the spren change as a result of their relationship, nothing nefarious going on. 
Which is what the book repeatably tells us is what is actually happening, no brainwashing or stealing of free will.

 

If you want an example of someone who was brainwashed, look no further than Dalinar and his interaction with Cultivation.


EDIT: And notably, arguing that bonded spren are brainwashed, completely undercuts the climax of Adolin's trial. "WE CHOSE" as Maya said quite forcefully, and as other formerly bonded spren clearly also feel, based on their actions in WAT. 

I sincerely doubt that we should see Honorspren in Lasting Integrity as correct considering their underhanded tactics, and the narrative clearly arguing otherwise.

Edited January 22 by therunner

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

TheRunner, you are right and I am wrong about everything, always.  I know this, you know this, your dog knows this.  Given that, there is no point in engaging with you, because, contrary to popular belief, I do not actually enjoy being an intellectual sandbag for wiser minds to relentlessly correct no matter what I think or write.

You're going to disprove anything I write anyways, so why even write?  Why even think or imagine or try to understand, if all that results is wrong thought after wrong thought after wrong thought?

You insist on reasonable discussion and will allow no unreasonable expression to go uncorrected, even when I restrict it to one specific thread.

And before anybody starts typing "but, Roz, you made some good points-" think about whether you're typing that because you want to be right and fair-minded and correct me, and think about whether or not correcting someone's attempts to concede makes that person feel as though he or she did something right or is capable of doing something right.

My interpretation, incorrect as it may be, is this: I think the narrative presents the Honorspren in Lasting Integrity as wrong because they are Honorspren and not Reasonspren, because they do not prioritize the things the protagonists prioritize.  If you measure everything by Reason's yardstick, everything but Reason looks crooked and wrong.  If you always have reasonable discussion, you deny all other forms of thought the chance to thrive.

Reason is a virtue.  Take care, lest it become your only virtue.

Edited January 22 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[therunner he/him]

10 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Reason is a virtue.  Take care, lest it become your only virtue.

I don't value only reason.  I also think it is important to, e.g. give others benefit of doubt (kind of mercy in my mind), show understanding of complicated situations, extend helping hand, etc.

However, when presenting a statement as fact, and basing a discussion as if something was fact, reason becomes necessary to judge if the statement in question is truthful or not. And if statement cannot survive such examination, then it behooves everyone to re-examine how they came to that statement in the first place.

Because sometimes, emotions and feelings can lead us not to Honor, but to Odium. Like hating on entire human population of planet, for actions others take as well, or even for actions they never took at all.


If I cared only about reason, I wouldn't be here in the first place.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I don't value only reason.  I also think it is important to, e.g. give others benefit of doubt (kind of mercy in my mind), show understanding of complicated situations, extend helping hand, etc.

However, when presenting a statement as fact, and basing a discussion as if something was fact, reason becomes necessary to judge if the statement in question is truthful or not. And if statement cannot survive such examination, then it behooves everyone to re-examine how they came to that statement in the first place.

Because sometimes, emotions and feelings can lead us not to Honor, but to Odium. Like hating on entire human population of planet, for actions others take as well, or even for actions they never took at all.


If I cared only about reason, I wouldn't be here in the first place.

There are truths that cannot survive such examination.  There are truths that cannot be proven.  There are paths to truth outside of Reason's map. There are things which are right, which cannot be coherently expressed in such a manner as to fit within the strict confines of logic or survive the cruel arena of critical thought.  Reason is a pesticide for error, but modernity's method of crop-dusting everything with it is not without consequence to the soil.

You warn me not to treat opinion as fact.  Fact is an unwelcome anachronism in the context of fantasy, as foreign to a fairy-tale as a saxophone or fax machine would be.  Of my three favorite genres of novel, the fantasy is the backwards temporal escape from modernity, the western is the spatial escape from modernity, and the science-fiction is the frontwards temporal escape from modernity.  All of them point to a longing which our modern lives cannot satisfy, a yearning for the wonder of a not-yet-ruined world.

Navani Kholin, as well as Jasnah, Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin, Shallan, and Taravangian, all are philisophical and thematic colonizers of Roshar's fairyland, cynical modernists who think in terms of "fact", have no issue with dissection of the human form, insist that the "objective" is real and the "subjective" is nothing but experiential, and who are, in effect, "Connecticut Yankees in King Arthur's Court".

For all their reason, it is only Kaladin, least educated and most mystical of the lot, who arrives at the insight that the invasion of the Shattered Plains is not justified, an insight which leads him to... stay on the same dang side and have sad feelings about it and seek absolution from Rlain so he can stop having sad feelings about it.

Perhaps this "fact"-based rationality, this early-stage modernity, is why they are so comfortable with genocide, having the tools of reason to rationalize it to themselves, and having the fixation on progress that was the hallmark of reality's largest atrocities.

 

As soon as "WE CHOSE" happens, the last major non-evil philisophical/moral/narrative obstacle to the narrative of the rightness of the protagonists is gone.  They are no longer on trial in the eyes of the readers or the author, pardoned of all sins past, present, and future.  More than that, the very basis on which they may be questioned is eroded as the Kholins claim (perceived) moral superiority over the Honorspren of Lasting Integrity, depriving those Honorspren of the moral authority to judge humanity.  The other holdouts for absolutism are cleared away in Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth, culminating with Szeth, the last absolutist, being corrected until he breaks down, accepts "healthy" thoughts and "clearsighted" regard for his own worth and volition, and dies rather than stay an inconvenient metatextual reminder of what Kaladin just destroyed.

Strangely, the trial of Adolin and its climax is the point where the Honorspren cease to exist as beings whose perspectives and priorities are allowed to threaten the heroic framing of the protagonists, becoming nothing more than another bunch of fallible, flawed, compromised, contemptible, "believable" characters who are all too human.  Mister Sanderson makes them messy and "real"... just like Ishar will later be revealed to have done.  And, just as with Ishar, this process ends in the spiritual becoming temporal, in the immortal becoming mortal, in the killing of that which was not meant to be killed, once Navani invents anti-spren weapons and gives them to Odium's minions.

I find it fascinating that the trial for humanity ends in a mistrial through the prosecution destroying their case by trying to cheat.  Interesting that humanity never gets a fair trial.  I do not think that they would be acquitted in a fair trial, and I think mister Sanderson knows that.  So rather than prove that humans are worthy, he portrays the Honorspren of Lasting Integrity as being unworthy.  And then in later books he jettisons the very idea of right and wrong as anything more than "benefits the children of Ashyn / does not benefit the children of Ashyn". So, yeah, I would very much like to see that moment undercut, as so many of my favorite moments have been undercut.

It's also interesting to me that the Honorspren of Lasting Integrity lose because of a fact they did not know and could not possibly have known.  I know that feeling.

Edited January 22 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Szeth, the last absolutist, being corrected until he breaks down, accepts "healthy" thoughts and "clearsighted" regard for his own worth and volition, and dies rather than stay an inconvenient metatextual reminder of what Kaladin just destroyed.

He's not dead, and I don't know that he's abandoned absolutism so much as decided that he's done being a pawn for other people.

 

I would be very sad if he didn't retain at least some of that fire we saw in him the prologues. That drive to do what he felt was right regardless of the cost is what makes him an interesting character.

Edited January 22 by Frustration

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

He's not dead, and I don't know that he's abandoned absolutism so much as decided that he's done being a pawn for other people.

 

I would be very sad if he didn't retain at least some of that fire we saw in him the prologues. That drive to do what he felt was right regardless of the cost is what makes him an interesting character.

Wait, wait, Szeth survived?  When did this happen?  I swear I remember reading his death and crying.

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Wait, wait, Szeth survived?  When did this happen?  I swear I remember reading his death and crying.

Always?

These are the epigraphs for WaT chapters 146 and 147

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But it was not a complete success, as I have not heard the Wind—neither has Szeth—in years. Save that one whisper.

Regardless, she lives, so perhaps the Oathpact, as it was, held well enough? Even without Szeth to fill the hole?

Or perhaps, as champion of the Wind, Kaladin was able to do something in the end right before he died, which turned Retribution’s ire from the spren.

"This account will not be without flaws. But it is the best I have been able to create from available information—and from the witness of my husband, Szeth, and the witness of the black sword he bears. For I myself helped him bury the Knight of Wind’s body, the day after Stormfall.

The day that everything changed."

Brandon did consider killing him but changed his mind while writing.

 

I hope that brings some happiness to you.

Edited January 22 by Frustration

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Oh, wait, now I remember.

Szeth renounced his oaths.

He is dead to me, he isn't Szeth any more, I must have convinced myself he died because it hurt less.

[Frustration]

35 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Oh, wait, now I remember.

Szeth renounced his oaths.

He is dead to me, he isn't Szeth any more, I must have convinced myself he died because it hurt less.

My guy.

I'm trying to help.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Again, not your fault, I'm just salty because Szeth was one of, if not the only character in fiction I ever related 100% to and then mister Sanderson, on fully understanding that kind of person, went "this is wrong, such a person needs to become somebody else and should stop thinking and feeling the things he or she thinks and feels.  This person's thoughts and feelings are invalid and need to be corrected and improved.  Roshar has no place for this kind of person unless he or she fundamentally changes." (or, at least, that's how it felt to read it.  I'm not sure mister Sanderson intended such a message.).

It's okay, I can still write fanfiction in which Szeth can run over Kaladin's stupid feet with a mack truck and slap him upside the head for that ten-day psychological torment session.

Bonus points if he gets Kaladin to admit that he did it out of revenge for Beld (honestly, that headcanon is the only way I made it through those chapters... imagining that somewhere, the ghost of Beld and the ghosts of all the minor characters and randos Szeth killed were all wearing "we deserved more pagetime" jackets and having a party at their killer's distress).

Edited January 23 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

There are truths that cannot survive such examination.  There are truths that cannot be proven.  There are paths to truth outside of Reason's map. There are things which are right, which cannot be coherently expressed in such a manner as to fit within the strict confines of logic or survive the cruel arena of critical thought.  Reason is a pesticide for error, but modernity's method of crop-dusting everything with it is not without consequence to the soil.

Truths that cannot be proven are not truths, they are beliefs or opinions. 

Some of those we may regard as 'deeper' truths, like beliefs in any number of religions, or our opinions on what is morally/ethically correct. None of these are provable, and so we have been arguing over those, well, for millennia.

However, when discussing what happens in a book some things can be proven or disproven. Me saying Kaladin has blue skin can be disproven by the book, and so any argument I make based on that (e.g. "He is literally son of Tanavast, he has blue skin!") will be rightfully dismantled.

Like you saying Szeth was killed, or that Nahel Bond is brainwashing spren. You came to these statements by not liking what was happening on page, and coming up with your own headcanon to make it more satisfying for yourself. 
That is fine, but once you start bringing those headcanons to discussions as if they were facts, you inevitably set yourself up to be corrected, because those things, well they never happened.

And claiming something happened or is true when it didn't is either an error or a lie, and either should be called out.

Quote

Fact is an unwelcome anachronism in the context of fantasy, as foreign to a fairy-tale as a saxophone or fax machine would be.

I disagree, especially when discussing what happens in those works of fantasy. 

E.g. me saying that in LOTR, Gandalf is exploiting hobbits to do his dirty work might look passably correct at a glance, but it is clearly incorrect. 
In-world, facts might not be as they are, but when discussing the literature facts are important.
 

Quote

Of my three favorite genres of novel, the fantasy is the backwards temporal escape from modernity, the western is the spatial escape from modernity, and the science-fiction is the frontwards temporal escape from modernity.  All of them point to a longing which our modern lives cannot satisfy, a yearning for the wonder of a not-yet-ruined world.

People have always been imaging things other than their present, it has nothing to do with modernity. 

Any number of myths are effectively fantasy with religious overtones (e.g. Gilgamesh, Roman and Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology), and people have been writing things akin to science-fiction even back in Roman times.
 

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cynical modernists who think in terms of "fact", have no issue with dissection of the human form, insist that the "objective" is real and the "subjective" is nothing but experiential,

... those are literally the dictionary definitions of those words.
I don't even know what to say.

Quote

objective /əb-jĕk′tĭv/

adjective

1. Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.
   "objective reality."
2. Based on observable phenomena; empirical.
   "objective facts."
3. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: synonym: fair.
   "an objective critic."

Quote

subjective /səb-jĕk′tĭv/

adjective

1. Dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world.
2. Based on a given person's experience, understanding, and feelings; personal or individual.
   "admitted he was making a highly subjective judgment."
3. Not caused by external stimuli.

 

Quote

For all their reason, it is only Kaladin, least educated and most mystical of the lot, who arrives at the insight that the invasion of the Shattered Plains is not justified, an insight which leads him to... stay on the same dang side and have sad feelings about it and seek absolution from Rlain so he can stop having sad feelings about it.

Kaladin is not the least educated, he is the least privileged.  Kaladin certainly received more formal education than e.g. Dalinar ever did, considering his schooling from his father. 

Nor did Kaladin ever had an opportunity to switch side, or reason to, considering the war very quickly shifted from "conquest/punitive war for assassination of leader" to "apocalypse, round 34".

Quote

Perhaps this "fact"-based rationality, this early-stage modernity, is why they are so comfortable with genocide, having the tools of reason to rationalize it to themselves, and having the fixation on progress that was the hallmark of reality's largest atrocities.

You mean like Scadrians? 

Who experiment on godmetals, are scientifically investigation their magical powers granted by gods, and who have commited more genocides in the last 1300 years, than Rosharans did? 

Every single Allomancer among protagonists of MIstborn have among their ancestor nobles, some more some less, but all of them do. So if sins of the fathers approach is relevant for Roshar, so we too can blame them.

Quote

The other holdouts for absolutism are cleared away in Rhythm of War and Wind and Truth, culminating with Szeth, the last absolutist, being corrected until he breaks down, accepts "healthy" thoughts and "clearsighted" regard for his own worth and volition, and dies rather than stay an inconvenient metatextual reminder of what Kaladin just destroyed.

You may have missed the fact that Szeth was breaking down since literal prologue of the first book because of lack of trust in himself and his absolutism.

Without either one of those, Szeth would be in much better place mentally. And in the end it is not his moral convictions that Szeth abandons, he instead rediscovers his trust in himself, one that was taken from him by Ishar's lies and manipulations.

And of course, he doesn't die.

7 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I find it fascinating that the trial for humanity ends in a mistrial through the prosecution destroying their case by trying to cheat.  Interesting that humanity never gets a fair trial.  I do not think that they would be acquitted in a fair trial, and I think mister Sanderson knows that.  So rather than prove that humans are worthy, he portrays the Honorspren of Lasting Integrity as being unworthy.  And then in later books he jettisons the very idea of right and wrong as anything more than "benefits the children of Ashyn / does not benefit the children of Ashyn". So, yeah, I would very much like to see that moment undercut, as so many of my favorite moments have been undercut.

The trial is about whether or not Adolin (and current humans) can be held responsible for crimes that:

1. They didn't know happened until ~2 years ago.
2. Was committed by their ancestors not themselves.

Generally speaking, 1) doesn't excuse a crime, but 2) very much means that the person accused didn't commit crimes. 
The whole 'sins of the father' things has been considered problematic IRL for millenia, even Bible warns against it.

Quote

Deuteronomy 24:16. 16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.

And finally, even before "We chose" moment, there is clear dissent in Honorspren ranks, they are not a monolith (what with multiple scenes of dissenters being removed from the chamber).  It is Honorspren leadership that has clear goal they want to get, and are not interested in a fair trial.

So if you want to treat Honorspren as arbiters of humanity, then their judgements is 'meh, maybe?' at worst.

Quote

It's also interesting to me that the Honorspren of Lasting Integrity lose because of a fact they did not know and could not possibly have known.  I know that feeling.

In most of the moments you have been corrected, it was literal text of the books that was used, not WoBs or anything. 
Those are things you could have known.
 

Quote

It's okay, I can still write fanfiction in which Szeth can run over Kaladin's stupid feet with a mack truck and slap him upside the head for that ten-day psychological torment session.

Ah yes, another of Kaladins crimes: Trying to talk someone out of suicide.

 

Edited January 23 by therunner

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Ah yes, another of Kaladins crimes: Trying to talk someone out of suicide.

To be fair it was Kaladin who(unintentionally) talked him into suicide to begin with.

 

And @Aliroz-The-Confused how does Szeth saying he is releasing 12124 because they don't fit together and his desire to find the Slybreaker dissenters and join them shape your feelings?

Edited January 23 by Frustration

[Usseewa]

On 1/21/2026 at 10:57 PM, Frustration said:

I just have an insatiable thirst for knowledge that led me to read every single WoB that we have.

...all 16,280 of them?

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Theory said:

...all 16,280 of them?

ALL of them.

Even the unsearchable ones that you have to dig through the individual events to find.

Every. Single. One.

I've even considered digging through the audio files we haven't transcribed WoBs for yet, but I've decided it's not worth the time when I can't even hear what's being said.

Edited January 23 by Frustration