So, There's No Hope. (Unhinged And Unwarranted Speculation)

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

NOTE:  This is all theory and speculation and opinion.

So, I realized that there is chouta on Scadrial, and I figure that those red-haired people who keep getting mentioned are Herdazians, and that means that there is a population of Rosharans living on Scadrial, and that means that there's no hope for the Scadrians, and that makes me sad.

I don't really want to see the Scadrians become slaves again.  I don't want to see species go extinct on Scadrial again.  I don't want the children of Ashyn to claim, desecrate, and then leave a THIRD world.

It's what's going to happen, though.  We're going to get Navani Kholin XVIII telling a first-generation Kandra that she's "just as native" as any Kandra.  We're going to see everything unique and interesting about Scadrial get commodified, made extinct, enslaved, exploited, trafficked, forgotten, or repurposed.  Because that's what they did to Roshar.  That's what Navani and Jasnah did to Roshar.  That's what the good guys, the honorable faction, of the Rosharan system, do.  None of what I describe is appreciably worse than what has already been done on Roshar, it's just that we never had a bunch of books to learn to care about the Listeners and the Spren in the way that we had for the Scadrians.

Slavery is no stranger to Rosharan societies.  Navani herself is innovating new ways to subordinate Spren to her whims and the material needs of humanity, and she's one we're supposed to be rooting for.

The Lord Ruler oppressed the Skaa for so, so long.  A millennia.  It has only been about three or four centuries that the Skaa have been free since then, that the Terris have not been selectively trafficking and breeding themselves just to stay alive.  And the Set, serving Bavadin, do the same thing with the ones they take.  Because that is what happens when outside Shards take an interest in Scadrial.

One can only hope that Scadrians are not interfertile with non-Scadrian humans, or else... eugh.  No way is anybody going to let them have reproductive autonomy, not when Feruchemy and Allomancy are genetically passed and the need to oppose Retribution is so great.  The Terris will probably go back to how they were in the times of the Lord Ruler, as will the Skaa.

And, honestly?  That's probably going to utterly break Kelsier and Harmony... especially Harmony, considering Tindwyl...  That's probably how we get Discord and why they will love him for it.

Because the Scadrians rejected Bavadin.  They rejected Autonomy, and stayed true to Harmony.  True to Ruin and Preservation.  And you can't reject Autonomy in favor of Harmony without repercussions, without an exploration of what it means to choose Harmony.

The Scadrians will, I predict, accept the Rosharans, as the Listeners and Spren did.  And they will end up just as the Listeners and Spren have.  Because they must.  Because it is the right thing to do.  Because the Rosharans in question are refugees, and that is worth everything.  The worth of a world, of a society, of a people, is in how they treat such.  To not accept the Rosharans would be to lose something irreplaceable and eternal.  Something worth more than freedom, more than autonomy, more than life, more than the world.  

For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his soul?

Edited June 12, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[BigBadBagsworth He/him/his]

My reaction: “whelp. That’s a pretty pessimistic reaction to Chouta.”

Edited June 12, 2025 by BigBadBagsworth

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Furthermore, Midius/Hoid/Cephandrius is obviously involved with this.  He plays favorites with worlds and with peoples, and it's obvious that his favorites are the Roshar system and the Rosharans (especially Alethi).  For someone who's supposed to always put the cosmere first, and who's supposed to be mysterious and otherworldly and unknowable everywhere he goes, he unerringly favors the children of Ashyn... heck, he's literally and figuratively in bed with Jasnah Kholin.

And that makes me wonder whether he planned it like this, whether he was eyeing up Scadrial as a backup planet for his favorites for a long time.

Dang.  Retribution is scary, but I think I'm just as scared of the good guys.

[BigBadBagsworth He/him/his]

See my previous comment.

 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

It is the correct reaction to Chouta, my friend.

I also genuinely think that Rosharan humans are fundamentally incapable of caring about the rest of the Cosmere as anything other than a resource to exploit.  In all of the hundreds of thousands of words that have been written on Roshar, I have not found a single instance of a Rosharan ever feeling anything about the rest of the Cosmere other than indifference, disgust, or desire.  Even Mraize's desire to "see" is a desire to explore, to know, to understand and make his own.  Everyone else, on the other hand?  They've all shown that they're able to work together and positively collaborate (the Ghostbloods... other than those who are on or from Roshar, who have clearly gone rogue or are at least starting to at the higher levels).  So, in light of this, I consider the idea that Rosharan humans can have any better-than-neutral regard for the rest of the universe to be headcanon at best, and headcanon directly contradicted by thousands of pages of evidence to the contrary at worst, in intentional and specific contrast to everyone else.

 

Note how Shallan removed Iyatil's mask after she died.  That's stripping a corpse, taking off her clothes, violating cultural and religious taboos.  This is the basic level of respect and understanding Sanderson sets up his protagonists to have.  The readers' affection for Shallan and sympathy for her trauma does a lot of heavy lifting in downplaying the horror of this and making it seem unremarkable.

Edited June 13, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

...

But we've had glimpses into far-future cosmere and Scadrial is ahead of Roshar (TSM, Emberdark previews). Certainly they haven't been subjugated.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I have never heard of such writings.  Perhaps you're talking about works which have not been in print yet?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

2 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I have never heard of such writings.  Perhaps you're talking about works which have not been in print yet?

The Sunlit Man

Clearly shows scadrians.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Well, then.

It appears I am a grade-C doofus.

Move along.

 

 

(Though I might, perhaps, have something of a point in supposing that we readers underestimate the extent to which the sympathetic points of view of the Rosharan protagonists lead us to excuse and justify the ways in which these same protagonists casually commit heinous actions, and that this same sympathetic storytelling masks the extent to which the Rosharans are, in-universe, terrifying and threatening-- especially for those who do not have such a pipeline into the intentions of the Kholin family.  I also think I might have a point in thinking of Harmony and Kelsier as being at least partially motivated by anxieties and dreads of past atrocities being repeated; and I think I have a point about Hoid playing clear favorites and un-favorites.)

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

44 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Well, then.

It appears I am a grade-C doofus.

Move along.

 

 

(Though I might, perhaps, have something of a point in supposing that we readers underestimate the extent to which the sympathetic points of view of the Rosharan protagonists lead us to excuse and justify the ways in which these same protagonists casually commit heinous actions, and that this same sympathetic storytelling masks the extent to which the Rosharans are, in-universe, terrifying and threatening-- especially for those who do not have such a pipeline into the intentions of the Kholin family.  I also think I might have a point in thinking of Harmony and Kelsier as being at least partially motivated by anxieties and dreads of past atrocities being repeated; and I think I have a point about Hoid playing clear favorites and un-favorites.)

yes. You have good points. (And yes, an argument could be made that these future 'scadrians' are just like how the rosharians are 'rosharians' (Them not actually being from roshar) I don't want that to be true, but it might). I agree with most of the points. However,

But they are so feelings! (Also, (WaT Spoilers) Jasnah abolished slavery)

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

8 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

NOTE:  This is all theory and speculation and opinion.

So, I realized that there is chouta on Scadrial, and I figure that those red-haired people who keep getting mentioned are Herdazians, and that means that there is a population of Rosharans living on Scadrial, and that means that there's no hope for the Scadrians, and that makes me sad.

I don't really want to see the Scadrians become slaves again.  I don't want to see species go extinct on Scadrial again.  I don't want the children of Ashyn to claim, desecrate, and then leave a THIRD world.

It's what's going to happen, though.  We're going to get Navani Kholin XVIII telling a first-generation Kandra that she's "just as native" as any Kandra.  We're going to see everything unique and interesting about Scadrial get commodified, made extinct, enslaved, exploited, trafficked, forgotten, or repurposed.  Because that's what they did to Roshar.  That's what Navani and Jasnah did to Roshar.  That's what the good guys, the honorable faction, of the Rosharan system, do.  None of what I describe is appreciably worse than what has already been done on Roshar, it's just that we never had a bunch of books to learn to care about the Listeners and the Spren in the way that we had for the Scadrians.

Slavery is no stranger to Rosharan societies.  Navani herself is innovating new ways to subordinate Spren to her whims and the material needs of humanity, and she's one we're supposed to be rooting for.

The Lord Ruler oppressed the Skaa for so, so long.  A millennia.  It has only been about three or four centuries that the Skaa have been free since then, that the Terris have not been selectively trafficking and breeding themselves just to stay alive.  And the Set, serving Bavadin, do the same thing with the ones they take.  Because that is what happens when outside Shards take an interest in Scadrial.

One can only hope that Scadrians are not interfertile with non-Scadrian humans, or else... eugh.  No way is anybody going to let them have reproductive autonomy, not when Feruchemy and Allomancy are genetically passed and the need to oppose Retribution is so great.  The Terris will probably go back to how they were in the times of the Lord Ruler, as will the Skaa.

And, honestly?  That's probably going to utterly break Kelsier and Harmony... especially Harmony, considering Tindwyl...  That's probably how we get Discord and why they will love him for it.

Because the Scadrians rejected Bavadin.  They rejected Autonomy, and stayed true to Harmony.  True to Ruin and Preservation.  And you can't reject Autonomy in favor of Harmony without repercussions, without an exploration of what it means to choose Harmony.

The Scadrians will, I predict, accept the Rosharans, as the Listeners and Spren did.  And they will end up just as the Listeners and Spren have.  Because they must.  Because it is the right thing to do.  Because the Rosharans in question are refugees, and that is worth everything.  The worth of a world, of a society, of a people, is in how they treat such.  To not accept the Rosharans would be to lose something irreplaceable and eternal.  Something worth more than freedom, more than autonomy, more than life, more than the world.  

For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his soul?

This is quite a bleak take from fantasy tacos lol

WAT and TSM spoilers:

Roshar is moving into a brand new era away from their negative traits such as slavery and warmongering. The Kholins are the main forces behind that (Jasnah freeing all Listeners in RoW and giving them their own legally recognized land in WaT, Navani turning the fabrial-spren relationship symbiotic instead of slavery, Renarin doing away with monarchs and establishing democracy, etc). Doing something like that really isn’t in character with the modern Rosharans. Scadrial will change, but for the better. It’ll have more cultures than ever before rather than fewer. 

There are other things about this too (like the fact Scadrians have airships, skyscrapers, and firearms, while the Rosharans have swords, shields, and floating planks of wood or future Scadrians being shown going strong with spaceships and technology in The Sunlit Man) but the main reason I don’t think this will happen is Brandon Sanderson himself. At the end of the day the Cosmere is a hopeful tale. There’s plenty of trauma and dark points along the way but it’s not a grimdark world. At the end of the day, the heroes are victorious, society progresses away from its more negative aspects, characters grow, develop, and redeem themselves, and good triumphs in the end. The Cosmere is about progress, redemption, and nuance and I believe we’re headed for a better, multicultural Scadrial, not an enslaved one.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

39 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

Navani turning the fabrial-spren relationship symbiotic instead of slavery,

Ehhhh, this one is dubious. It is more like she's started a process of domesticating and training spren instead of just abducting them. That's not really symbiosis; in real life humans don't have a symbiotic relationship with our livestock. But yeah, Jasnah's whole project was about trying to get the portion of Roshar that she coudl control to stop being one of overwhelming special privilege and oppression.

[Qianweilian He/him]

I don't understand how this would occur. The migrants don't appear to be hostile (for now), and they have no investiture, and no political or economic power. Obviously this can change, but I don't think they could do this.

12 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

We're going to get Navani Kholin XVIII telling a first-generation Kandra that she's "just as native" as any Kandra. 

If they see themselves as Scadrians and assimilate (at least partially), then why would they enslave their own people? This seems incompatible.

Also, I think that some take over is unlikely also because Scadrial is supposed to be an Earth parallel. Either consciously or subconsciously, the Basin seems to have taken on some aspects of the United States, especially the West and the North. There's a frontier, it's basically a federation, and now immigrants are appearing. One of the only things that is significantly different are the nobility that the Basin has. Because of this, I find it unlikely that conflict is going to spring up.

Also, as NerdyAarockra says, there are works set in the future with powerful Scadrians. Sunlit Man, 6th of the Dusk 2 preview, we know that Scadrial has a "cold war" with the Malwish in era 3, and we know that era 4 is both space, and some of the final books in the Cosmere.

[DiePie]

I'm sorry, but you sound like a Scadrian political pundit.

14 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I also genuinely think that Rosharan humans are fundamentally incapable of caring about the rest of the Cosmere as anything other than a resource to exploit.

Like they're still living breathing people. People who will commit atrocities if given power and an incentive, and whose ancestors will try to make the best of the world they are given. As far as Rosharans go, I'd find it hard to argue that Herdazians specifically are going to rise up and take over Scadrial. Also feels like a good time to remind you that the wars between humans and singers were deliberately inflamed by the shards of the system. Which, Brandon appears to be setting up again with the Scadrial vs. Roshar battle. At least someone is on the side of Scadrial, at least.

[Qianweilian He/him]

4 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I'm sorry, but you sound like a Scadrian political pundit

See what it sounds like when you replace Scadrian with American, Scadrial with America, TLR with King George, Roshar with Mexico, and Rosharan with Mexican. Sounds like the most racist, alt-right thing ever.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

13 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

But yeah, Jasnah's whole project was about trying to get the portion of Roshar that she could control to stop being one of overwhelming special privilege and oppression.

I think that's what Jasnah intends, and what she thinks she's doing, but I'm not sure that that's what she's actually making happen.

For example, outlawing the honor duels.  Those were a way for Alethi to get legal recourse they wouldn't otherwise be able to (just as duels served that purpose historically), and, furthermore, there were many regulating factors mandating a fair fight.  In historical societies that allowed duels, the social and societal function of such was to resolve conflicts without escalating them (part of Moash's frustration in Words of Radiance is that he can't just straight-up call out Elhokar and duel him... in other words, that the social structures which were supposed to grant him means to seek recourse are not available as they ought to be), and we can assume that they served this function for the Alethi.  Jasnah is replacing this with a legal system full of rules written by her and people like her, a world in which verbal disputation, rather than physical violence, reigns as the arbiter, and that overwhelmingly favors scholars, the charismatic, the literate, the intelligent, and, in short, Jasnah and people who remind Jasnah of herself.

I think it would be very messed up to get rid of the Azish's complicated paperwork system and have them solve problems in the traditional Alethi ways, to take from their children their papers and pens and give them swords and spears.  I think it's similarly messed up to take away the spears and swords from Alethela's children and give them papers and pens.  Some kids love reading and writing, some love fighting, climbing, and exploring, and just because one way of life is closer to ours (as modern readers) doesn't make it inherently better.  How is an illiterate darkeyes supposed to navigate Jasnah's reforms, her world of wit and reason and papers?  It will take generations to adapt, and I think we underestimate the impact the replacement of "rights we know how to use and how to build a life off of" with "rights that are new and unfamiliar and require literacy which we don't have" has for the vast majority of Alethi.

If we didn't have a pipeline into Jasnah's intentions, it would be very easy to suppose that she is restructuring her society to benefit people like her at the expense of those she regards as 'barbaric' and 'brutish', or, in other words, shifting the axis of privilege to a bureaucratic clerical scholarly class.

Jasnah, in many ways, tries to have her cake and eat it, too.  She expects people to adhere to the rules, and then rewrites those rules when she doesn't like them.  She expects Queen Fen to be willing to sacrifice everything for the coalition but is not willing to do the same with her own domain and makes preparations to assassinate friends and allies while expecting them not to do the same.  She wants the personal loyalty that is the backbone of any feudal system to be maintained while she systematically undermines that system and then is disappointed when the system kicks back.  These are intentional characterizations, I think, and they give her depth and come organically from her personality, and I think Mr. Sanderson, though characters such as Queen Fen, is showing us the consequences of things we as readers have been ignoring and excusing because magical warrior queens who can make you explode and love reading are really cool.

 

 

5 hours ago, DiePie said:

I'm sorry, but you sound like a Scadrian political pundit.

Like they're still living breathing people. People who will commit atrocities if given power and an incentive, and whose ancestors will try to make the best of the world they are given. As far as Rosharans go, I'd find it hard to argue that Herdazians specifically are going to rise up and take over Scadrial. Also feels like a good time to remind you that the wars between humans and singers were deliberately inflamed by the shards of the system. Which, Brandon appears to be setting up again with the Scadrial vs. Roshar battle. At least someone is on the side of Scadrial, at least.

My whole point is that, regardless of what the consequences are and regardless of what the past is, the present needs of refugees outweigh all other concerns.  My whole point is that, in the choice between harmony and autonomy, the correct choice is harmony and love of one's fellow man.  Even if it costs you your home planet.

 

5 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

See what it sounds like when you replace Scadrian with American, Scadrial with America, TLR with King George, Roshar with Mexico, and Rosharan with Mexican. Sounds like the most racist, alt-right thing ever.

I don't think that that's quite fair.  Your metaphor assumes that TLR was not Scadrian and that there was a Rosharan population indigenous to Scadrial prior to TLR.   Mexico and the United States are on the same continent, separated only by a state-created border (an artificial thing that does not naturally exist).   Roshar and Scadrial are not only entirely separate planets, but were created by different deities.  And my entire thesis is that the Scadrians should and must accept the Rosharans because it is the right thing to do, because no matter what they have done or might do, they are people and nothing can change that.  

Edited June 12, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

3 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I think that's what Jasnah intends, and what she thinks she's doing, but I'm not sure that that's what she's actually making happen.

For example, outlawing the honor duels.  Those were a way for Alethi to get legal recourse they wouldn't otherwise be able to (just as duels served that purpose historically), and, furthermore, there were many regulating factors mandating a fair fight.  In historical societies that allowed duels, the social and societal function of such was to resolve conflicts without escalating them (part of Moash's frustration in Words of Radiance is that he can't just straight-up call out Elhokar and duel him... in other words, that the social structures which were supposed to grant him means to seek recourse are not available as they ought to be), and we can assume that they served this function for the Alethi.  Jasnah is replacing this with a legal system full of rules written by her and people like her, a world in which verbal disputation, rather than physical violence, reigns as the arbiter, and that overwhelmingly favors scholars, the charismatic, the literate, the intelligent, and, in short, Jasnah and people who remind Jasnah of herself.

I think it would be very messed up to get rid of the Azish's complicated paperwork system and have them solve problems in the traditional Alethi ways, to take from their children their papers and pens and give them swords and spears.  I think it's similarly messed up to take away the spears and swords from Alethela's children and give them papers and pens.  Some kids love reading and writing, some love fighting, climbing, and exploring, and just because one way of life is closer to ours (as modern readers) doesn't make it inherently better.  How is an illiterate darkeyes supposed to navigate Jasnah's reforms, her world of wit and reason and papers?  It will take generations to adapt, and I think we underestimate the impact the replacement of "rights we know how to use and how to build a life off of" with "rights that are new and unfamiliar and require literacy which we don't have" is for the vast majority of Alethi.

If we didn't have a pipeline into Jasnah's intentions, it would be very easy to suppose that she is restructuring her society to benefit people like her at the expense of those she regards as 'barbaric' and 'brutish', or, in other words, shifting the axis of privilege to a bureaucratic clerical scholarly class.

Jasnah, in many ways, tries to have her cake and eat it, too.  She expects people to adhere to the rules, and then rewrites those rules when she doesn't like them.  She expects Queen Fen to be willing to sacrifice everything for the coalition but is not willing to do the same with her own domain and makes preparations to assassinate friends and allies while expecting them not to do the same.  She wants the personal loyalty that is the backbone of any feudal system to be maintained while she systematically undermines that system and then is disappointed when the system kicks back.  These are intentional characterizations, I think, and they give her depth and come organically from her personality, and I think Mr. Sanderson, though characters such as Queen Fen, is showing us the consequences of things we as readers have been ignoring and excusing because magical warrior queens who can make you explode and love reading are really cool.

 

 

My whole point is that, regardless of what the consequences are and regardless of what the past is, the present needs of refugees outweigh all other concerns.  My whole point is that, in the choice between harmony and autonomy, the correct choice is harmony and love of one's fellow man.  Even if it costs you your home planet.

 

I don't think that that's quite fair.  Your metaphor assumes that TLR was not Scadrian and that there was a Rosharan population indigenous to Scadrial prior to TLR.   Mexico and the United States are on the same continent, separated only by a state-created border (an artificial thing that does not naturally exist).   Roshar and Scadrial are not only entirely separate planets, but were created by different deities.  And my entire thesis is that the Scadrians should and must accept the Rosharans because it is the right thing to do, because no matter what they have done or might do, they are people and nothing can change that.  

The abolishing of duels seems like a good thing in my opinion. Roshar is moving in a more civilized direction where disputes can be settled legally and peacefully rather than whipping out a pointy stick and plunging it into the other fellow who wronged you. Here in America I’d say our society is a lot better off because dueling was outlawed. People no longer kill each other during disagreements and I’d imagine this will be similar for Roshar. Jasnah’s new legal system will have flaws, that’s inevitable. However on the whole it’s designed to right wrongs and solve issues in a just and peaceful manner. A world in which verbal disputation, rather than physical violence reigns as arbiter seems a much better place. Jasnah is not working off elitism, she’s genuinely trying to make a better world for everyone. I disagree that it’s messed up to take away Alethi children’s weapons and replace them with pens and paper. Children shouldn’t be taught to war from a young age. I agree that just because something is modern doesn’t mean it’s automatically better, but that’s not what’s going on here. We’ve seen how this current system fails: Listeners are enslaved and thought of less than human, Alethi pillage and murder for “honor”, there’s a clear class system with darkeyes being treated as lesser than lighteyes. You mentioned the example of dueling being a cleaner way of solving disputes that allowed darkeyes to be on the same level as lighteyes but that’s just not true. Moash was frustrated because he couldn’t duel Elhokar due to his rank and when Kaladin tried to challenge Amaram he was immediately imprisoned. Roshar’s current system is in many ways simpler and has positive attributes, but it is also deeply flawed, brutal, and unjust. I agree that Jasnah has deep intentional character flaws, but they are being adressed as wrong and her actions have helped the people of Roshar who are oppressed under the current system. With her undergoing more character growth coupled with the good she’s done now, I think it’s safe to say Roshar is in good hands.

[DoctaDajman]

@Aliroz-The-Confused

I'll be honest. I have always felt that Roshar was way too tilted power wise. 

But I always imagined Scadrial would be the initial aggressor in the conflict. I think we are more likely to see that Scadrial starts off a massive war and then peace talks come about as shards continue to get consumed and smashed together. 

I imagine the cosmere as simply being all of the magics mushed together and a bit of each being seen on every planet before too long. The Metallic arts will make a lot of technological advancements possible while the pure investiture of the lights will be able to supercharge and power so much of what is going on. We saw pure liquid investiture used for allomancy and it seemed to reach lerasium + levels of Strength. I dont know if it would work even better with stronger metalborn but I really dont think Brandon will end his Cosmere tale with one planet dominating and making slaves of all others... 

He has never claimed that the planets and systems of magic were meant to be balanced either... Roshar is powercreep to the max. Roshar and the powergaps between ideals makes Blizzard Games World of Warcraft Cataclysm and Mists of Pandarea look like the poster child of balanced power progression. 

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

4 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Jasnah, in many ways, tries to have her cake and eat it, too.  She expects people to adhere to the rules, and then rewrites those rules when she doesn't like them

That is just what it is to wield power as a sovereign. Jasnah's position is one where she thinks the power of monarchy is bad in the abstract, but that she is wholly willing to use it to achieve good ends. This doesn't make her aims false. She is still clearly against slavery as well as aristocratic class privilege and sexism.

Also, the kind of reform Jasnah is doing doesn't actually require mass literacy. Elsewhere, I have made the point that she is basically doing the Napoleonic reforms, including introducing a new law code. France was not that widely literate in the early 19th century. The thing Jasnah should gain in place of the feudal ties that she can't use any more is a wild devotion among the common people, though the fact her reforms were in place for less than a year might mean no one even got to enjoy them.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

That is just what it is to wield power as a sovereign. Jasnah's position is one where she thinks the power of monarchy is bad in the abstract, but that she is wholly willing to use it to achieve good ends. This doesn't make her aims false. She is still clearly against slavery as well as aristocratic class privilege and sexism.

Also, the kind of reform Jasnah is doing doesn't actually require mass literacy. Elsewhere, I have made the point that she is basically doing the Napoleonic reforms, including introducing a new law code. France was not that widely literate in the early 19th century. The thing Jasnah should gain in place of the feudal ties that she can't use any more is a wild devotion among the common people, though the fact her reforms were in place for less than a year might mean no one even got to enjoy them.

The "Enlightenment" was very much not a good thing in my opinion, so that's hardly consoling for anyone who prefers Narnia to A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court.

And there is, as far as I can tell, no indication that Jasnah is going to gain a wild devotion among the common people, and the foreshadowing seems to me to be hinting that she's about to hit a massive backlash from the common people who don't actually like having their way of life turned upside down for a heretic lighteyed queen's ideas of benevolent reform, and might, just might actually like some of the traditions and aspects of the society that used to function more properly before the Kholin family took over and stopped maintaining them.

None of the Bridge Four guys object to the duels.  They express discontentment that they're not allowed to participate in them, and the way in which this feels bitter and raw implies to me that perhaps prior to the last couple of centuries or maybe even just prior to the Kholin monarchy, someone like Moash could, in fact, have called out someone like Elhokar and resolved it to his satisfaction or death.

And, sure, maybe Jasnah's new legal labyrinth doesn't require mass literacy, but it sure as heck will require guides, scribes, interpreters, advocates, and an entire literate class of middlemen between the people and justice... and those guys aren't going to perform any of those services for free.

I interpret the Kholins as people who benefit greatly from systems they do not put effort into maintaining or even understanding, and then, when those systems fall apart, they act like it's the system's fault, and introduce something new which just so happens to aesthetically, morally, intellectually, or in some other way have great appeal to them and allow them to take credit as creators and doers... which is what they want because they're too darn proud to value the world they grew up in and would rather be remembered as controversial changers who did important things than as maintainers who prevented disaster, and I think it's valid to interrogate that from the point of view of those who do not have the benefit of narrative representation through plot relevance or Point-of-View characterization.

Especially the Vorin churches, which have been astoundingly patient and accepting of Jasnah, all things considered.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

@Aliroz-The-Confused

I'll be honest. I have always felt that Roshar was way too tilted power wise. 

But I always imagined Scadrial would be the initial aggressor in the conflict. I think we are more likely to see that Scadrial starts off a massive war and then peace talks come about as shards continue to get consumed and smashed together. 

I imagine the cosmere as simply being all of the magics mushed together and a bit of each being seen on every planet before too long. The Metallic arts will make a lot of technological advancements possible while the pure investiture of the lights will be able to supercharge and power so much of what is going on. We saw pure liquid investiture used for allomancy and it seemed to reach lerasium + levels of Strength. I dont know if it would work even better with stronger metalborn but I really dont think Brandon will end his Cosmere tale with one planet dominating and making slaves of all others... 

He has never claimed that the planets and systems of magic were meant to be balanced either... Roshar is powercreep to the max. Roshar and the powergaps between ideals makes Blizzard Games World of Warcraft Cataclysm and Mists of Pandarea look like the poster child of balanced power progression. 

Honestly, I am exited for the implications of 2 worlds each with their own god, warring.

[Xaladin he/him]

You can’t kill hope without first killing Kelsier. And good luck with that.

[DoctaDajman]

1 hour ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Honestly, I am exited for the implications of 2 worlds each with their own god, warring.

And it isn't just 2 worlds with their respective God.  The shards from each of these worlds are conjoined and more powerful than singular shards from other worlds.  Although I am unsure what Retribution is going to do for the Rosharans. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

16 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The "Enlightenment" was very much not a good thing in my opinion

Please tell me you don't mean this "Enlightenment." Also, I'm not sure how this has to do with a couple of maybe Rosharan migrants with street food taking over Scadrial

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

AUSTRAILIANS FOUGHT A WAR AGAINST BIRDS

AND LOST

TWICE

things don't always go the way you think they will

THE GREAT EMU WARS