So, There's No Hope. (Unhinged And Unwarranted Speculation)

[Qianweilian He/him]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

Again, so far, Scadrians did more damage to Rosharns than vice versa.

We learn in TLM that the Rosharan branch (which has a significant amount of Rosharans in it) is mostly outside of Kelsier's control. A lot of the "damage" committed by the Ghostbloods has in fact been from Rosharans.

6 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

you forgot the biggest damage:  Axindweth introducing Venli to Ulim and giving her the gemstone.

Tbf, this is someone entirely unaffiliated with Scadrial directly in league with Odium. It'd be a bit like judging Rosharans based on Moash or Sadeas.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I can't believe you forgot the biggest damage:  Axindweth introducing Venli to Ulim and giving her the gemstone.

Still, if the balance inclines, I'd say the children of Ashyn did far more damage to Roshar than the Scadrians.

Imagine if all we ever read of Shallan was that chapter I quoted, and all we knew of Roshar was from worldhopper accounts and ghostblood reports.  What sort of assumptions would we make?  How does it all look from outside?  

Or, imagine if we got the hypothetical novel series about the Listeners that I've mentioned before.  If the Stormlight Archive was Roshar Era 2.

Or, if we got a series set on Ashyn.

Or, what if we knew the Listeners who were mutilated by Bridge Four as well as we knew Bridge Four from the published pages, and knew Bridge Four as vaguely as we knew the Listeners who were mutilated by Bridge Four in the published pages?

It seems to me that in any framing other than the specific one we get, the picture that emerges is utterly horrifying.

The reason I worry about Scadrians ending up in breeding programs is that mister Sanderson has written seven Mistborn books in which Scadrians are forced into breeding programs and zero in which they are not.  The reason I worry about the children of Ashyn taking over a third world and ruining it is because of what they have done to two worlds already.  The reason I worry that Scadrial is not going to have a happy ending is because we have a grand total of zero happy endings that stick in the Mistborn books.

None of what I propose is appreciably worse or different than what has already happened, it's just that it's harder to rationalize when we are familiar with the "before".

I would dispute that being betrayed makes it acceptable to demand someone as payment.  Being intentionally distant is not the same thing as seeing someone as an object that can be traded.  None of that changes the fact that Shallan operates under the understanding that (1) she can treat beings as bargaining chips and (2) the consent of said beings is irrelevant because she only needs to negotiate with their "masters".  No amount of legitimate beef with someone is going to make that okay in my eyes.

I argue that taking the "warlike/violent/scary + historical and current atrocities + the dominant faction came into power through invasion within living memory + breaking the power of religious opposition = I think these guys are supposed to come off as scary" vibe check that we apply to the worshippers of Skai/Dominion, and applying it to worshippers of Honor and Cultivation, shows just how much the sympathetic point of view of the Cosmere colors the reader's perception, that someone having thoughts we can read, a likable personality, and a sad backstory can determine whether we root for conquerors or the conquered, can determine which sins the readers forgive, can determine whether the same action comes off as heroism or villainy.

True

6 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The fact that the Kholins were opposing Odium did a lot, and I mean a lot, to make them come off as good by comparison.  But Dalinar gave Honor to Taravangian and loosed him upon the Cosmere.  Dalinar rejected the previous Honor's plan and killed himself to make Retribution everyone's problem, Vin fulfilled the previous Preservation's plan and killed herself to make sure Ruin didn't become everyone's problem, and I respect the latter a heck of a lot more than the former.

Okay you had me up until this point. Vin didn't kill herself to make sure Ruin was no one else's problem. Vin wasn't even aware that there was anyone else for Ruin to be their problem.

Vin self-sacrificed to kill Ati because that was the only way to save her people.

For Dalinar the conditions were different. His people were already safe, the only way to endanger them was if he were to fight Odium in the same way Vin fought Ruin. Instead he had to think more long term.

Odium had already told Dalinar he intended to go to other worlds, and Dalinar verified that the other worlds were unconcerned and unprepared for the threat Odium posed to them.

If Dalinar hadn't done what he did Odium would have forced the humans to break the contract at some point, killed Cultivation and moved on to cause problems for other worlds on his own terms with his own armies, and would have continued just like he had with the previous four Shards.

Instead Dalinar forced the others to recognize Odium as a threat, while simultaneously putting Odium on the defensive.

Dalinar didn't make things worse for the rest of the Cosmere, he finally woke them up to the threat that was there the whole time they just chose to ignore.

It was a brilliant move that proved to be of greater advantage to the Shards of other worlds that were against Odium than to Odium himself.

Taravangian realized that, Hoid realized that, even the vision Dalinar had seems to indicate that the God Beyond wanted that outcome.

49 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

Suppose Fen was a critical part of enabling something like the Coalition Wars

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Fen causes a new Coalition war? With who and for what purpose?

I'm probably just misinterpreting that, so if it's obvious what you were trying to say you have permission to slap me(though not too hard, I do try to appear beautiful)

57 minutes ago, ParaTulip said:

 or, had her reform program been met with more resistance, providing support to the opposition to her reforms via marine supply.

No one in Alethkar really has the ability to resist Jasnah militarily.

House Sadeas the only ones who really tried are all dead now, with the implication(real or imagined in the minds of other highprinces really doesn't matter the affect is the same) that anyone who tries following their example will meet the same fate.

Honestly looking at that makes me think a little more about @Aliroz-The-Confused's point. The Kholins really did just kill anyone who got in their way. Huh. I Was not expecting to rethink the entire series when I opened this thread.

House Kholin controls all the Shards, Dalinar is king of the Radiants, and Jasnah herself is stronger than any military might that a Resistance force would be able to muster.

So any resistance would have to be political rather than militaristic. So all that Fen would be able to do is sell things to people with different political views than Jasnah.

Which I don't think even justifies seriously contemplating an assassination, much less actually planning it.

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

You are thinking that her plan to kill Fen is some immediately pending thing, that this is a "Any day now, I will kill that woman for making me pay too much for jewelry" type of situation.

Well if it's anything like Aesudan(who Jasnah was going to assassinate for nothing more than being a political, with the orders signed in hand and everything)then Jasnah probably has assassins already watching Fen, or at the very least contracts for that drawn up. The only thing Fen has done in the books to warrant that is "making her pay more for jewelry" type things.

Also I think maybe we make a new thread for this so we don't take over the current one, how does that sound?

[DoctaDajman]

8 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The reason I worry about Scadrians ending up in breeding programs is that mister Sanderson has written seven Mistborn books in which Scadrians are forced into breeding programs and zero in which they are not.  The reason I worry about the children of Ashyn taking over a third world and ruining it is because of what they have done to two worlds already.  The reason I worry that Scadrial is not going to have a happy ending is because we have a grand total of zero happy endings that stick in the Mistborn books.

Genuinely. This is why I am a sucker for spoilers. The beautiful part of Scadrials eras so far is that I have 2 jumping off points where I liked the ending and dont have to read further. 

The show Chuck is the perfect example... I binged seasons 1-4. I had to read spoilers as I was going. Once I got to the end of season 4 I heard what happened in season 5 as the series finalized and despised it so much... season 4 was where that series ended in my mind. The nerd got happily married to the girl he had a crush on for the last 4 seasons. Why waste my time to watch another 10 hours if the ending is going to break my heart?  

That is how I feel about Stormlight. The healing I knew was an issue in book 2 and then 3 it became inexcusable for me. I know this thread is about the people on Roshar but I feel like it is all of that system for me. 

I have cherry picked the parts with Vasher and read them for the awakening. I have no need to read RoW or WaT. I can live with the ending of Oathbringer and call it a good spot to be done with that series. Brandon may be the creator of the Cosmere but my brain and fantasy world can leave the future up to possibility that I enjoy. 

 

I will say that, from this discussion, Brandon has done an excellent job of turning Roshar into the epic fantasy that he wanted. It seems it is becoming a magic heavy game of thrones where he writes about the good the bad and the ugly. Not my personal cup of tea. 

Adolin killing Sadeas was a sad moment for me. Watching him deal with it felt legit. Maybe its because he isnt a magical demigod, but that story always felt pretty legit to me. But the other characters have gotten a bit too extreme for my liking. 

I like the pacing of scadrial books. I like that they are written from one sides point of view. I like a good guy and a bad guy. Miles, Marsh, Bleeder... when Brandon wrote their POV chapters and sections it was always giving so much more insight into the magic which I really liked. I dont have a desire to get inside of the bad guys head. Let them be the bad guys and let me enjoy their power without making them a focal point.  

 

Although I completely respect that everyone has their own preferences for fantasy... let them read and enjoy who and what they will... the stormlight just doesnt do it for me. I like the magic... if it wasn't for shards and Awakening I wouldnt read any of Stormlight. 

I much prefer reading about characters found on Scadrial and Nalthis. Stormlight is just a Venture down an avenue and style of writing fantasy I dont jive with. 

On 12/11/2025 at 4:07 PM, Frustration said:

I know this is months old, but I just want to say that this is one of the best descriptions of the Rosharan magic systems I have ever seen.

Thanks for that. 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Okay you had me up until this point. Vin didn't kill herself to make sure Ruin was no one else's problem. Vin wasn't even aware that there was anyone else for Ruin to be their problem.

Vin self-sacrificed to kill Ati because that was the only way to save her people.

For Dalinar the conditions were different. His people were already safe, the only way to endanger them was if he were to fight Odium in the same way Vin fought Ruin. Instead he had to think more long term.

Odium had already told Dalinar he intended to go to other worlds, and Dalinar verified that the other worlds were unconcerned and unprepared for the threat Odium posed to them.

If Dalinar hadn't done what he did Odium would have forced the humans to break the contract at some point, killed Cultivation and moved on to cause problems for other worlds on his own terms with his own armies, and would have continued just like he had with the previous four Shards.

Instead Dalinar forced the others to recognize Odium as a threat, while simultaneously putting Odium on the defensive.

Dalinar didn't make things worse for the rest of the Cosmere, he finally woke them up to the threat that was there the whole time they just chose to ignore.

It was a brilliant move that proved to be of greater advantage to the Shards of other worlds that were against Odium than to Odium himself.

Taravangian realized that, Hoid realized that, even the vision Dalinar had seems to indicate that the God Beyond wanted that outcome.

I wrote that sentence badly.  I think I should have written, "Leras had a plan which, in addition to other things, made sure Ruin didn't become everyone's problem.  Vin fulfilled that plan.  This required self-sacrifice.".  I think the text of The Hero of Ages is written in such a way as to not confirm or deny whether Vin was aware of other worlds when she was Preservation, on the one hand you'd think she'd mention it in her thoughts, but on the other it's hard to see how someone could be Preservation and not be aware of other worlds.

I think I should have written "Tanavast had a plan which, in addition to other things, made sure Odium didn't become everyone's problem. Dalinar rejected this plan.  This required self-sacrifice."

Your appraisal rests on Odium being able to force the children of Ashyn to break the contract.  My appraisal rests on Odium not being able to do that.

I also dispute Odium killing Cultivation as being guaranteed.  I just don't see Odium winning the Honor-and-Cultivation 2v1 without help, I think if He kills one then whichever He doesn't kill first takes Him out, and on the Koravellium-vs-Odium 1v1 I don't see why it's impossible that Cultivation could kill Odium (I think She set up Taravangian to become Odium as part of a plan to kill Odium, a plan which Dalinar thwarted by giving Honor to Taravangian).

I don't think Odium killed Devotion and Dominion without help, even with both of them wounded.  I think Autonomy helped.  I also speculate that Autonomy may have helped Odium against Ambition and Mercy.

The writer of the letter, the one who tells Hoid not to interfere, seems to agree with me with regards to Tanavast setting things up.  I think that letter was foreshadowing, especially the part about children stumbling around and breaking things they don't understand.

Because that's basically my read on the Kholins, as I've said before.

On 6/12/2025 at 5:02 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I interpret the Kholins as people who benefit greatly from systems they do not put effort into maintaining or even understanding, and then, when those systems fall apart, they act like it's the system's fault, and introduce something new which just so happens to aesthetically, morally, intellectually, or in some other way have great appeal to them and allow them to take credit as creators and doers... which is what they want because they're too darn proud to value the world they grew up in and would rather be remembered as controversial changers who did important things than as maintainers who prevented disaster.

In my view: Dalinar, in the end, chose to die rejecting all paths that he did not come up with, used his power to force his ideas upon the world and destroy all alternative possibilities to the one which leaves him remembered as a genius who did the shocking and unexpected and unforgettable, as the harshly-debated bringer of the new times who did important stuff, as the one who chose the arc of fate.  Because he could not, would not, maintain what he claimed and inherited, because he wouldn't dedicate himself to someone else's vision, wouldn't put in the work if it meant not getting the credit/blame/attention, wouldn't spend millennia holding it all together as the second in an unending sequence of Honors, wouldn't let it be Koravellium whose decisions put an end to Odium.
Because, in the end, he did not know that the task of royalty is to accept what passes to you and pass it on in turn to the next.  He did not know the way of kings.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I wrote that sentence badly.  I think I should have written, "Leras had a plan which, in addition to other things, made sure Ruin didn't become everyone's problem.  Vin fulfilled that plan.  This required self-sacrifice.".  I think the text of The Hero of Ages is written in such a way as to not confirm or deny whether Vin was aware of other worlds when she was Preservation, on the one hand you'd think she'd mention it in her thoughts, but on the other it's hard to see how someone could be Preservation and not be aware of other worlds.

I think I should have written "Tanavast had a plan which, in addition to other things, made sure Odium didn't become everyone's problem. Dalinar rejected this plan.  This required self-sacrifice."

Your appraisal rests on Odium being able to force the children of Ashyn to break the contract.  My appraisal rests on Odium not being able to do that.

Brandon goes through a lot of effort to show not only that Odium could do just that, but that he would.

It talks a lot about him torturing humans whose relatives are in the coalition nations and letting them know that. Abusing, breaking and other horrible type things to them until their relatives unable to bare it fought back trying to free them. That would put them in violation of the contract, and give Odium power over the coalition nations.

7 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I also dispute Odium killing Cultivation as being guaranteed.  I just don't see Odium winning the Honor-and-Cultivation 2v1 without help, I think if He kills one then whichever He doesn't kill first takes Him out, and on the Koravellium-vs-Odium 1v1 I don't see why it's impossible that Cultivation could kill Odium (I think She set up Taravangian to become Odium as part of a plan to kill Odium, a plan which Dalinar thwarted by giving Honor to Taravangian).

Well Dalinar couldn't fight Odium without killing everyone in Urithiru, so that option is off the table.

As for Cultivation's ability to handle Odium

Spoiler

Kaymyth

A lot of people were disappointed when Cultivation just yeeted herself off Roshar and fled. Is what happened what she expected to happen, or was this like her Plan C, her Plan F, Plan Z, like how many layers were there?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Cultivation does have more plans, but let's just say if Cultivation were as capable of handling Odium as she thought, we wouldn't need a book series.

Kaymyth

Oh my.

Brandon Sanderson

That's one thing to keep in mind, right? If Honor and Cultivation could handle Rayse, could handle Odium really, the power behind Rayse, The Stormlight Archive wouldn't need to be written. And so, I wouldn't count Cultivation out entirely, but I would say that Cultivation is part of the problem, not the solution, and that's how you should be looking at Cultivation. I mean, there's some good reasons that some members of the Heralds did not get along with her. And, you know, this is one of the problems that I run into in writing this book series is I want the viewpoint characters to be the ones that are solving problems, not necessarily the people who we can't really grasp and understand. And so, from the get-go, Cultivation I would, as I said, I consider Cultivation, you know she's part of the solution, but I also consider her part of the problem. So, there you are, I'll leave you with that. You are very much allowed to be disappointed in her and you should be.

Shardcast Interview (May 25, 2025)

So that wouldn't work.

12 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I don't think Odium killed Devotion and Dominion without help, even with both of them wounded.  I think Autonomy helped.  I also speculate that Autonomy may have helped Odium against Ambition and Mercy.

Possible, but if Odium knew he couldn't win a fight he wouldn't show up to it.

16 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I think I should have written "Tanavast had a plan which, in addition to other things, made sure Odium didn't become everyone's problem. Dalinar rejected this plan.  This required self-sacrifice."

Now that makes more sense, but I still disagree. I don't believe Tanavast's plan would work. I think he was in an almost non-functional state of mind when he made it, and Odium was playing the plan to his benefit.

[therunner he/him]

15 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I can't believe you forgot the biggest damage:  Axindweth introducing Venli to Ulim and giving her the gemstone.

Axindweth seems to be a free agent, so I don't blame Scadrial for her actions.  Though she does have the same Aviar as Mraize, so maybe she is Ghostblood? But I am not sure, so I give the benefit of the doubt.

Quote

Imagine if all we ever read of Shallan was that chapter I quoted, and all we knew of Roshar was from worldhopper accounts and ghostblood reports.  What sort of assumptions would we make?  How does it all look from outside?  

Bad, kinda how it looks bad that Scadrian organization sold a child to Fused (Lift, back in RoW) for political gain?
Luckily, we know more than that, and so we wouldn't judge an entire planet worth of people based on those actions, right?

Cherrypicking can make any point of view viable.

Quote

Still, if the balance inclines, I'd say the children of Ashyn did far more damage to Roshar than the Scadrians.

Why do you keep saying 'children of Ashyn', but 'Scadrians' ?

Also, Ashynites were on Roshar for ~7000 years, vs Scadrians interacting with Roshar for 2-3 decades. 
In those few decades they: 

• Helped unleash Odium (working with Gavilar, so not purely their fault)
• Worked with Odium to help them win Desolation (ensuring Odium would be free to leave system)

When Ashynites were on Roshar for 2-3 decades they, didn't do anything bad yet. It took roughly 50 years before the first conflict started.

So considering the sheer number of people, and the span of time, Scadrians are doing worse.

Quote

I would dispute that being betrayed makes it acceptable to demand someone as payment.  Being intentionally distant is not the same thing as seeing someone as an object that can be traded.  None of that changes the fact that Shallan operates under the understanding that (1) she can treat beings as bargaining chips and (2) the consent of said beings is irrelevant because she only needs to negotiate with their "masters".  No amount of legitimate beef with someone is going to make that okay in my eyes.

Since you say that no amount of legitimate beef is making it okay to trade people, I invite you to judge Kelsier (and Ghostbloods) for the same: 

• Kelsier helped Gavilar with the explicit condition of getting Kalak
  • I.e. Kelsier sees people as bargaining chips and cares not about their consent
• Ghostbloods (under Kelsier's orders) kidnap Kalak
  • Ala (that spren Shallan is bargaining about at end of WAT) was working on that mission, meaning she/it also ignores consent of others
• Ghostbloods sold a child to Fused (Lift in RoW), to get political 'in' with Fused
  • Again, this is them treating beings as bargaining chips

So there, Scadrian organization doing everything you are judging Shallan for, and systematically (unlike Shallan).
 

9 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

We learn in TLM that the Rosharan branch (which has a significant amount of Rosharans in it) is mostly outside of Kelsier's control. A lot of the "damage" committed by the Ghostbloods has in fact been from Rosharans.

Leadership of the Rosharan branch are still Scadrians (Iaytil), they were working for Scadrians (Kelsier) and sent there by Scadrians (Kelsier again). If Kelsier didn't organize Ghostbloods, they wouldn't be there, and as such responsibility does end with him.

Additionally, Kelsier in TLM claims the branch is outside his control, and yet as late as RoW he was in communication with Iyatil about seizing control of Oathgates. This was goal he assigned her, and she had to tell him it would not be possible. So they tried to at least get access, and started working with Fused (by selling them Lift). 

I.e. from the roughly 2-3 decades that we know Ghostbloods operated on Roshar, it seems that Kelsier was in charge for the entire time, except that last month or two. And even in WAT Iyatil is convinced Kelsier would be okay with their actions if they achieve their goals (which they didn't).

Would they act like that if Kelsier was on the site? I don't think so, at least not to this extent, but Kelsier is still the one who recruited Iyatil, and who let her run things for several decades.

Edited December 17, 2025 by therunner

[Frustration]

14 hours ago, therunner said:

Axindweth seems to be a free agent, so I don't blame Scadrial for her actions.  Though she does have the same Aviar as Mraize, so maybe she is Ghostblood? But I am not sure, so I give the benefit of the doubt.

Bad, kinda how it looks bad that Scadrian organization sold a child to Fused (Lift, back in RoW) for political gain?
Luckily, we know more than that, and so we wouldn't judge an entire planet worth of people based on those actions, right?

Cherrypicking can make any point of view viable.

Why do you keep saying 'children of Ashyn', but 'Scadrians' ?

Also, Ashynites were on Roshar for ~7000 years, vs Scadrians interacting with Roshar for 2-3 decades. 
In those few decades they: 

• Helped unleash Odium (working with Gavilar, so not purely their fault)
• Worked with Odium to help them win Desolation (ensuring Odium would be free to leave system)

When Ashynites were on Roshar for 2-3 decades they, didn't do anything bad yet. It took roughly 50 years before the first conflict started.

So considering the sheer number of people, and the span of time, Scadrians are doing worse.

Since you say that no amount of legitimate beef is making it okay to trade people, I invite you to judge Kelsier (and Ghostbloods) for the same: 

• Kelsier helped Gavilar with the explicit condition of getting Kalak
  • I.e. Kelsier sees people as bargaining chips and cares not about their consent
• Ghostbloods (under Kelsier's orders) kidnap Kalak
  • Ala (that spren Shallan is bargaining about at end of WAT) was working on that mission, meaning she/it also ignores consent of others
• Ghostbloods sold a child to Fused (Lift in RoW), to get political 'in' with Fused
  • Again, this is them treating beings as bargaining chips

So there, Scadrian organization doing everything you are judging Shallan for, and systematically (unlike Shallan).
 

Leadership of the Rosharan branch are still Scadrians (Iaytil), they were working for Scadrians (Kelsier) and sent there by Scadrians (Kelsier again). If Kelsier didn't organize Ghostbloods, they wouldn't be there, and as such responsibility does end with him.

Additionally, Kelsier in TLM claims the branch is outside his control, and yet as late as RoW he was in communication with Iyatil about seizing control of Oathgates. This was goal he assigned her, and she had to tell him it would not be possible. So they tried to at least get access, and started working with Fused (by selling them Lift). 

I.e. from the roughly 2-3 decades that we know Ghostbloods operated on Roshar, it seems that Kelsier was in charge for the entire time, except that last month or two. And even in WAT Iyatil is convinced Kelsier would be okay with their actions if they achieve their goals (which they didn't).

Would they act like that if Kelsier was on the site? I don't think so, at least not to this extent, but Kelsier is still the one who recruited Iyatil, and who let her run things for several decades.

An excellent counterpoint, I'll just add that the ghostbloods were looking for BAM to use her as a weapon, whether BAM wanted to or not.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

16 hours ago, therunner said:

Why do you keep saying 'children of Ashyn', but 'Scadrians' ?

Because I don't know the proper demonym for Ashyn, and don't want to get corrected for guessing it wrong.  I'm going based off of what might be described as "homeworlds".

I think "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Scadrial, Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin= Ashyn, Vasher/Zahel=Nalthis, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=???" terminology is internally consistent and works for what it's trying to keep track of.  In this context, this is what I use.

I think "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Roshar, Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin=Roshar, Vasher/Zahel=Roshar, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=Roshar" terminology is internally consistent and works for what it's trying to keep track of (world-inhabitance).

I think "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Scadrial, Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin=Roshar, Vasher/Zahel=Nalthis, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=???" terminology (???) is internally inconsistent.  This is what everyone else seems to use (this is probably me missing something that is obvious to everyone else); I don't understand why.

To my mind,  an internally consistent pattern would have either both Iyatil and Kaladin as Rosharans (if a population moving from one world to another changes which world counts as their "homeworld" for these descriptive purposes) or neither of them (if it doesn't). 

Edited December 17, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[First of the Tide He/him]

43 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Because I don't know the proper demonym for Ashyn, and don't want to get corrected for guessing it wrong.  I'm going based off of what might be described as "homeworlds".

I think "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Scadrial, Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin= Ashyn, Vasher/Zahel=Nalthis, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=???" terminology is internally consistent and works for what it's trying to keep track of.  In this context, this is what I use.

I think "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Roshar, Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin=Roshar, Vasher/Zahel=Roshar, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=Roshar" terminology is internally consistent and works for what it's trying to keep track of (world-inhabitance).

I think "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Scadrial, Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin=Roshar, Vasher/Zahel=Nalthis, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=???" terminology (???) is internally inconsistent.  This is what everyone else seems to use and (this is probably me missing something that is obvious to everyone else); I don't understand why.

To my mind,  an internally consistent pattern would have either both Iyatil and Kaladin as Rosharans (if a population moving from one world to another changes which world counts as their "homeworld" for these descriptive purposes) or neither of them (if it doesn't). 

I'd actually argue that it should be more tied to birthplace (for example, Texans are Texans, even though most of their lineage came from Germany. This is just a couple centuries, where as Ashyn to Roshar is millenia) So "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Silverlight(Lighter), Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin=Roshar, Vasher/Zahel=Nalthis, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=???"

I'm just laughing imagining going up to a Texan and calling them a "child of Germany" (not trying to make fun of you, I just can't stop laughing at the idea)

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Oh.

It's world-of-birth?  That makes a strange sort of sense, even if it's kind of random (a couple could have thirteen children born on thirteen different worlds, hypothetically).  I guess it's one of those things that's intuitive to everyone except me.

I really don't feel as though different places on Earth works for me as a metaphor for different worlds.  The continents have been joined and split in the past, and they rest upon the same mantle.  There's a physical contiguity from the very start.  The seas and oceans that separate continents are not voids but masses of water.  Worlds, though, weren't previously or originally conjoined, and are separated by empty void.  The same sun that shines over Tazmania shines over Arizona.  The same particles of water and air may, through natural cycles, go all over the world, but no naturally-occurring cycle moves water and air from Threnody to Sel to Taldain.

Worlds intuitively "feel" like they're "separate" in my mind, while different parts of a world intuitively "feel" like they're "connected".  It's some little-kid part of me that thinks you could dig a tunnel to the other side of the Earth but knows you can't dig a tunnel to the moon, I guess.

Edited December 17, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Immortal Platypus]

21 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I really don't feel as though different places on Earth works for me as a metaphor for different worlds.  The continents have been joined and split in the past, and they rest upon the same mantle.  There's a physical contiguity from the very start.  The seas and oceans that separate continents are not voids but masses of water.  Worlds, though, weren't previously or originally conjoined, and are separated by empty void.  The same sun that shines over Tazmania shines over Arizona.  The same particles of water and air may, through natural cycles, go all over the world, but no naturally-occurring cycle moves water and air from Threnody to Sel to Taldain.

Worlds intuitively "feel" like they're "separate" in my mind, while different parts of a world intuitively "feel" like they're "connected".  It's some little-kid part of me that thinks you could dig a tunnel to the other side of the Earth but knows you can't dig a tunnel to the moon, I guess.

For the record, I think your system of classifying people is interesting, and considering that you hold modern what-I-would-call-Rosharans (people living on Roshar whose ancestors are from Ashyn) responsible for the crimes of prior generations, the ones actually from Ashyn (please correct me if I'm wrong about that), it makes sense that that would be how you think of them. 

On a somewhat related note, I would like to posit that the worlds in the cosmere are also connected, in a very similar way to our continents, but on a larger scale and longer timeframe (that will make more sense momentarily). You speak of continents joining and splitting but still resting on the same mantle. The parallel in terms of worlds is that at some point thoughout the cosmere, assuming it follows a trajectory somewhat similar to our universe (which is, admittedly a large assumption), the planets, or the matter that makes them up, will shift and perhaps collide with one another, eventually separating off and creating new planets that will still rest in the same "mantle", in this case, the space-time continuum. As for the seas and oceans, the CR has a somewhat similar effect, with Scadrial's manifesting as a literal ocean (IIRC) and Roshar's manifesting as a sea of beads. Even without that, without technology, the seas are just as uncrossable as space, and with eventual technology, space is also (presumably) crossable. As for the sun, there's not a great parallel, but you could say that light from the same stars is present on the majority of the planets. As for water/air cycles, while they might not move in those current states, it does seem plausible to me that there will be matter that changes planets, even if it is one or two atoms at a time. So on Earth where, it would take decades, centuries, or thousands of years for many of these events to happen, it would take thousands, millions, perhaps billions of years in the cosmere - a different timeframe for a larger scale.

I don't intend this to be argumentative, it's just something I thought of when I read your post, and I thought it worth sharing.

 

On a completely unrelated note, @Aliroz-The-Confused, I'd like to apologize for any rudeness and/or unkindness I exhibited towards you. I certainly wasn't the nicest at times, particularly at the beginning of our conversation, and I'm sorry about that. If I had any negative effect on your mental state, please forgive me, it was not my intention.

[First of the Tide He/him]

43 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Oh.

It's world-of-birth?  That makes a strange sort of sense, even if it's kind of random (a couple could have thirteen children born on thirteen different worlds, hypothetically).  I guess it's one of those things that's intuitive to everyone except me.

I really don't feel as though different places on Earth works for me as a metaphor for different worlds.  The continents have been joined and split in the past, and they rest upon the same mantle.  There's a physical contiguity from the very start.  The seas and oceans that separate continents are not voids but masses of water.  Worlds, though, weren't previously or originally conjoined, and are separated by empty void.  The same sun that shines over Tazmania shines over Arizona.  The same particles of water and air may, through natural cycles, go all over the world, but no naturally-occurring cycle moves water and air from Threnody to Sel to Taldain.

Worlds intuitively "feel" like they're "separate" in my mind, while different parts of a world intuitively "feel" like they're "connected".  It's some little-kid part of me that thinks you could dig a tunnel to the other side of the Earth but knows you can't dig a tunnel to the moon, I guess.

Even in the real world, this isn't well defined(Chinese Americans, for example, might still call themselves "Chinese" for dozens of generations, or maybe only one or two) Both the way you defined it and the way I defined it are ways of working around this to be precise. I prefer my system, because it feels most aligned with how they think of themselves, but yours is a little more unambiguous.

Edit: I am trying very hard not to come off as racist. If I accidently offend you, I am very sorry. please communicate this with me, and I'll do my best to change my words in a more appropriate way.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Inactive said:

As for the sun, there's not a great parallel, but you could say that light from the same stars is present on the majority of the planets.

Ashyn and Roshar orbit the same star tho...

Edited December 17, 2025 by First of the Tide

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

1 hour ago, First of the Tide said:

Even in the real world, this isn't well defined(Chinese Americans, for example, might still call themselves "Chinese" for dozens of generations, or maybe only one or two) Both the way you defined it and the way I defined it are ways of working around this to be precise. I prefer my system, because it feels most aligned with how they think of themselves, but yours is a little more unambiguous.

Edit: I am trying very hard not to come off as racist. If I accidently offend you, I am very sorry. please communicate this with me, and I'll do my best to change my words in a more appropriate way.

I think there isn't any simple pattern which works for all contexts. I choose the homeworld-as-origin-planet-for-very-first-ancestors terminology-pattern at least partly to stress my intended point that the ones I call "the children of Ashyn" come off quite differently if every reference to them is also a reference to their past and current actions.  I don't like calling them "Rosharans" as much because it hides these actions and implies that they were always where they are now and that the status quo is how things always were, and I just don't feel that that's fair to the Listeners and the spren.  In a different thread, a different conversation, I might use a different pattern so as to not turn every thread into this exact conversation.

Edit:  As for trying not to come off as racist, the same goes for me.  If I accidentally say something offensive, please tell me and I'll do my best to fix it.

I think we would all prefer not to derail this into inadvisable real-life subjects.

Edited December 18, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[therunner he/him]

9 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Because I don't know the proper demonym for Ashyn, and don't want to get corrected for guessing it wrong.  I'm going based off of what might be described as "homeworlds".

I think "Homeworlds: Iyatil=Scadrial, Eshonai=Roshar, Kaladin= Ashyn, Vasher/Zahel=Nalthis, Hoid/Midius/Cephandrius/Wit=???" terminology is internally consistent and works for what it's trying to keep track of.  In this context, this is what I use.

Ah, thank you for explenation. 

I personally refer to using their 'culture', so to speak? 

I.e. Iyatil (while born in Silverlight) seems to adhere to cultural heritage of Southern Scadrians, and so I refer to her as Scadrian.

From that perspective, I see humans of Roshar as Rosharans, since well, they are. Kaladin is culturally closer to a Singer that lived in Alethkar (as we see in Oathbringer that awakened Singers seem to be culturally close to land they lived in), than he is to people who lived on Ashyn over 7000 years ago.

Also, regarding homeworlds, people that settled on Ashyn came from elsewhere, so technically they are not children of Ashyn. Best guess they came from Yolen, as that is the planet humans originated on in Cosmere. Scadrians were created by their Shards along with the planet, so technically they are native to Scadrial only.
 

5 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I think there isn't any simple pattern which works for all contexts. I choose the homeworld-as-origin-planet-for-very-first-ancestors terminology-pattern at least partly to stress my intended point that the ones I call "the children of Ashyn" come off quite differently if every reference to them is also a reference to their past and current actions.

I don't think I agree that this makes sense (to me at least). 

E.g. would it make sense in real-life to blame i.e. modern day people of Iraq for what Gilgamesh did? And those are only 5000 years apart.

Quote

I don't like calling them "Rosharans" as much because it hides these actions and implies that they were always where they are now and that the status quo is how things always were, and I just don't feel that that's fair to the Listeners and the spren.

I don't think it hides these actions, it simply shows how separate they are from that. 

Large part of ending of RoW was showing that humans are as much part of Roshar as Singers and spren, despite Raboniel's claims to contrary. When they arrived they weren't, but after 7000 years, they have become part of it.

Edited December 18, 2025 by therunner

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

E.g. would it make sense in real-life to blame i.e. modern day people of Iraq for what Gilgamesh did? And those are only 5000 years apart.

Different worlds do not work as a metaphor for different parts of the same world.  I don't agree with the premises of this comparison, as I think that nothing that humans can ever do on Earth is comparable to invading a planet.

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

Large part of ending of RoW was showing that humans are as much part of Roshar as Singers and spren, despite Raboniel's claims to contrary. When they arrived they weren't, but after 7000 years, they have become part of it.

I reject this interpretation of the ending of Rhythm of War.  It's too soul-crushing, too heartbreaking, too despairing, and (despite his obvious sadism) I don't think mister Sanderson is quite that cruel.

I do not think that the central message of the Cosmere is meant to be the Melian Dialogue's "the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must".

Edited December 18, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Schizoposting]

@Aliroz-The-Confused, I think a big problem with your argument(s) is that you make a lot of outlandish claims (e.g. Roshar is going to over Scadrial and genocide the local population) in a very confused and incoherent way, without adequately supporting said claims. For instance, when asked what's the essential difference between invading a different country on the same world, and invading a country on a different world, you basically said "they are different, because they are different", which is just begging the question. I do think that this has the potential to be a productive discussion, but it's held back by the way you're presenting your point of view. I would recommend for you to focus on the actual textual evidence, and on making your argument more logically rigorous. 

BTW, have you read Emberdark? It's very pertinent to this discussion, and I think that if you haven't read it, you should go read it.

[Qianweilian He/him]

7 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I do not think that the central message of the Cosmere is meant to be the Melian Dialogue's "the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must".

That's not how I see it. Yes, the original Ashynites did break their deal with the Singers, and they never really got punished for it. But that doesn't mean that the humans who live on Roshar now, them and and their ancestors, who have always lived there should be considered criminals, or even "children of Ashyn." According to the Roshar map/timeline, the Ashyn exodus was about 7000 years before the events of TWOK. That means if the first civilizations in Mesopotamia still lived to today from their estimated creation, then they would have existed for less than humanity has been on Roshar. I don't think it's fair to consider a human who was born and has lived on Roshar their entire life any less Rosharan than a singer.

[First of the Tide He/him]

@Aliroz-The-Confused is right, to an extent. Settling an entire new continent is quite different at least from the overtaking of Roshar, since in the real world, colonizers would aggresively take over, and then, after generations, the natives become intermixed with the colonizers, both socially and hereditarily. However, in the scenario of the overtaking of Roshar, we see that, even after millenia, there has been absolutely no intermixing aside from a few select scenarios before the first desolation and within the last 10 years before WoK. The 'children of Ashyn' are cultural descendants only of the culture of Ashyn and of the effects of the land of Roshar. Holding that distinct from the the 'culture of roshar' (the cultural practices and beliefs of the original inhabitants) is perfectly reasonable and valid. While people in Iraq today are very different from Gilgamesh (and other similar scenarios), there have been vast amounts of cultural, social, and hereditary mixing that has greatly changed the inhabitants of that place. An Ashynite, for the most part, only exchanged ideas with other Ashynites, and only had kids whose parents were both entirely Ashynite.

Being tied to the same land as someone else does not necesarily make you culturally the same, and making a distinction between those who have the original culture and those who are attempting to override it is valid and a positive step being taken in the real world. 'children of Ashyn' might not be the perfect term, but it is a clear and acceptable one. I might use Native Rosharan vs. Neo-Rosharan to show the cultural distinction, while still not degrading either one, but 'children of Ashyn' is clear and relevant directly to the conversation.

Dang that was longer than I expected.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I'd like to make an unfair comparison between the Children of Ashyn and the Nobles of Scadrial in the original Mistborn trilogy, in that both are the preferred peoples of immortal shard-splinter god-kings/queens (which immortal being(s) do horrible things in efforts to maintain the imprisonment of an evil god, and end up being compromised by said evil god, while claiming to represent the dead/broken/incapacitated good god), both are inheritors of conquest and see their position as natural and right, both claim the right to enslave beings which they define as "unintelligent" or "lesser" (remember when Elend asked Vin if Skaa were intelligent like people?), both have been the dominant population for an unimaginably long time, and both grankle my bajankles.

In Mistborn, we're supposed to go "Hey, that's some evil heinous crap, that's nonsense, nothing makes this okay." and in the Stormlight Archive we're supposed to go "Well that's kind of questionable but that's just the way it is and the evil god is REALLY evil, that takeover was a long time ago, they didn't know their Parshmen slaves were more than animals, it's supposed to be morally ambiguous, the ones alive now didn't build the system, that one made a sincere apology, this one gave up some of her power to get rid of the worst parts of what's going on, you can't expect people to be perfect, they're not the only ones who ever did evil heinous crap...".

I think a lot of why the children of Ashyn get absolved by the narrative and by readers as much as they do is because of the emotional attachments we form to the characters, because of the feelings the books make us feel, and because something in the story resonates with something within the reader in a way that speaks to the soul.  Because there's some of the coolest stuff you've ever read going on, and because we appreciate things that appeal to us (this is not a criticism, if it was, it would be a flaw to like art or music).  Not all of it, but a lot.  

I'm the same way.  I'm emotionally skewed with regards to the Mistborn books and Scadrial because that stuff resonates with me.  I can find the idealism and the flame of heroic goodness and human decency there, I can connect with it.  At some point, I stopped being able to find it in The Stormlight Archive.  Without that flame, what I find is the dark and the cold.

 

[First of the Tide He/him]

6 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

grankle my bajankles.

Wish I could rep just this. Cant't stop laughing. OUT LOUD. IN A LIBRARY.

You're right. They are very similar. When it comes to viewpoints, you make another good point. We almost always support the narrator first. That's part of why so many people saw Columbus as a hero for so long. (If you can't tell, i'm studying for APUSH, that's why all my examples are Apush-related)

But I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. In both stories, the ones we pull hardest for(Kal and Vin, for most casual readers) are the ones who are trying to change, and the ones who realize they might be wrong.

Kaladin and Vin both start out just trying to survive, with a hatred for higher ranked people(nobles/lighteyes), meet those highly ranked people, realize they're not all demons(fall for elend/knowing dalinar), and then try to stop hurting the other people those 'demons' are hurting(killing rashek/helping the listener group survive and siding with Leshwe).

And despite everyone absolutely HATING on Jasnah, she's trying to do something very similar to what Vin did after Elend became mistborn. Going around, taking control if she has to, and doing her best to help the people who get overlooked. Vin then demanded supplies, whereas Jasnah did not. 

Condemning Jasnah for attempting to help the little people at the cost of people in control, and for trying to take control is ridiculous, when Vin did something very similar, and is being so profoundly praised.

Also, who repped all my posts in this thread in a row, i'm getting so many notifications

Edited December 19, 2025 by First of the Tide

[therunner he/him]

9 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I'd like to make an unfair comparison between the Children of Ashyn and the Nobles of Scadrial in the original Mistborn trilogy, in that both are the preferred peoples of immortal shard-splinter god-kings/queens (which immortal being(s) do horrible things in efforts to maintain the imprisonment of an evil god, and end up being compromised by said evil god, while claiming to represent the dead/broken/incapacitated good god),

How are Rosharan 'preferred people' of immortal shard-splinter god-kings?  Singers chose to follow Odium instead of Honor, Honor never chose humans over Singers.

Yeah, Honor didn't pay attention to Singers for few centuries back before migration, because basically a serial killer moved into neighboring house!

Not to mention that e.g. Shin didn't violate the original treaty with Singers, as far as we know, and in fact have cultural taboo against it.

If you are making this comparison, current Rosharan humans have more in common with people like Wax, than with pre-Catecedre nobles. Of course, they are multiple apocalypses away from their roots, unlike Wax who is just one apocalypse away from his, and still gets the benefits of his noble lineage.

9 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

 both claim the right to enslave beings which they define as "unintelligent" or "lesser" (remember when Elend asked Vin if Skaa were intelligent like people?), both have been the dominant population for an unimaginably long time, and both grankle my bajankles.

Now, I will make clear I will not defend slavery, but Parshmen are unintelligent compared to humans and normal Singers.

We are explicitly told that unless told to do something, they just sit around and stare. They can talk only with extreme difficulty. If humans didn't take them in following sealing of BAM, Singers would be likely extinct at the moment. And I'll stress that this was not done on purpose, unlike what TLR did to Skaa.

Again, this does not excuse that humans enslaved them.

Comparatively, Skaa and nobles were originally (1000 years ago) mildly different, but by time of Era 1 those differences were wiped away. If you look at the heinous stuff e.g. Straff Venture is doing with Skaa, nothing on Roshar comes close.


And I would also stress that for 2500 years, between Last Desolation and False Desolation, humans and Singers both coexisted on Roshar, without one side dominating the other.

@First of the Tide

Quote

Settling an entire new continent is quite different at least from the overtaking of Roshar, since in the real world, colonizers would aggresively take over, and then, after generations, the natives become intermixed with the colonizers, both socially and hereditarily. However, in the scenario of the overtaking of Roshar, we see that, even after millenia, there has been absolutely no intermixing aside from a few select scenarios before the first desolation and within the last 10 years before WoK.

Except humans and Singers did intermix, Herdazians and Unkalaki are just the most prominent examples, both culturally and biologically.

Dawnchant was also originally the language of Dawnsingers, and is ancestor of Shin language and of Unkalaki language, another evidence of social intermixing.

And as we see in WAT flashbacks, singer/human intermixing was not particularly uncommon, between Desolations. And there was the 2500 years between Last and False Desolations, where humans and Singers coexisted.

Quote

The 'children of Ashyn' are cultural descendants only of the culture of Ashyn and of the effects of the land of Roshar. Holding that distinct from the the 'culture of roshar' (the cultural practices and beliefs of the original inhabitants) is perfectly reasonable and valid. While people in Iraq today are very different from Gilgamesh (and other similar scenarios), there have been vast amounts of cultural, social, and hereditary mixing that has greatly changed the inhabitants of that place. An Ashynite, for the most part, only exchanged ideas with other Ashynites, and only had kids whose parents were both entirely Ashynite.

That is plain wrong. 
Ashynite culture was virtually wiped away to the extent that no one knows they are from Ashyn to begin with. Nor do they know of Odium (important fixture for Ashynites), nor of Surges. 
Nor are Ashynites ethnically recognizable as any specific group of Rosharans.
They don't even speak the same language!

Desolations repeatadly reduced humanity to literal stone age, such that they had to be taught everything from scratch by Heralds (one of whom was not from Ashyn at all). And that is not even considering the 4500 years since Heralds left. That is nearly as long as recorded history here on Earth.

Even if they were originally homogeneous at Aharietam (they weren't), after 4500 they wouldn't be, especially since they did interact with Singers for nearly a half of that period, as BAM was sealed 'only' 2000 years ago.

Edited December 19, 2025 by therunner

[bmcclure7]

On 6/11/2025 at 5:30 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

NOTE:  This is all theory and speculation and opinion.

So, I realized that there is chouta on Scadrial, and I figure that those red-haired people who keep getting mentioned are Herdazians, and that means that there is a population of Rosharans living on Scadrial, and that means that there's no hope for the Scadrians, and that makes me sad.

I don't really want to see the Scadrians become slaves again.  I don't want to see species go extinct on Scadrial again.  I don't want the children of Ashyn to claim, desecrate, and then leave a THIRD world.

It's what's going to happen, though.  We're going to get Navani Kholin XVIII telling a first-generation Kandra that she's "just as native" as any Kandra.  We're going to see everything unique and interesting about Scadrial get commodified, made extinct, enslaved, exploited, trafficked, forgotten, or repurposed.  Because that's what they did to Roshar.  That's what Navani and Jasnah did to Roshar.  That's what the good guys, the honorable faction, of the Rosharan system, do.  None of what I describe is appreciably worse than what has already been done on Roshar, it's just that we never had a bunch of books to learn to care about the Listeners and the Spren in the way that we had for the Scadrians.

Slavery is no stranger to Rosharan societies.  Navani herself is innovating new ways to subordinate Spren to her whims and the material needs of humanity, and she's one we're supposed to be rooting for.

The Lord Ruler oppressed the Skaa for so, so long.  A millennia.  It has only been about three or four centuries that the Skaa have been free since then, that the Terris have not been selectively trafficking and breeding themselves just to stay alive.  And the Set, serving Bavadin, do the same thing with the ones they take.  Because that is what happens when outside Shards take an interest in Scadrial.

One can only hope that Scadrians are not interfertile with non-Scadrian humans, or else... eugh.  No way is anybody going to let them have reproductive autonomy, not when Feruchemy and Allomancy are genetically passed and the need to oppose Retribution is so great.  The Terris will probably go back to how they were in the times of the Lord Ruler, as will the Skaa.

And, honestly?  That's probably going to utterly break Kelsier and Harmony... especially Harmony, considering Tindwyl...  That's probably how we get Discord and why they will love him for it.

Because the Scadrians rejected Bavadin.  They rejected Autonomy, and stayed true to Harmony.  True to Ruin and Preservation.  And you can't reject Autonomy in favor of Harmony without repercussions, without an exploration of what it means to choose Harmony.

The Scadrians will, I predict, accept the Rosharans, as the Listeners and Spren did.  And they will end up just as the Listeners and Spren have.  Because they must.  Because it is the right thing to do.  Because the Rosharans in question are refugees, and that is worth everything.  The worth of a world, of a society, of a people, is in how they treat such.  To not accept the Rosharans would be to lose something irreplaceable and eternal.  Something worth more than freedom, more than autonomy, more than life, more than the world.  

For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his soul?

You’re overreacting in fact, we know for a fact that this hasn’t happened as we see Scadrial in era four. Additionally, I do not think that. Roshar could conquer Scadrial at least not at this point

On 6/11/2025 at 8:29 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I have never heard of such writings.  Perhaps you're talking about works which have not been in print yet?

Yeah, you need to read those books, Sunlit man and ember dark

Spoiler

Scadrial isn’t being oppressed by Roshar just the opposite they have their own interstellar empire, and are much too busy, oppressing others to worry about being oppressed themselves

 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Spoiler

So, as far as I can tell, The Lost Metal established that the Harmonium-Trellium bomb would have killed everyone in the Elendel basin, in addition to Bilming (a port city, whereas the basin is inland, implying that not only the basin would be depopulated but that what happened would reach the coast!) and that at least half of the population of the Northern Scadrian Continent lives in the Elendel basin (I can't find where this was mentioned, but I remember it being mentioned).  Assuming approximately equal populations in the Northern and Southern continents, that looks like about one fourth of the planetary population killed by one bomb and its aftereffects.

Now, I'm probably insane, but given the approximate real-life analogue for the setting of the Wax and Wayne novels (the American West in the late 1800s and beginning of the 1900s), my headcanon for  the number of people on the Northern Scadrian Continent is in the hundreds of thousands, possibly two or three million, but I can stretch that give the basin a population of four million, the rest of the continent a population of four million, and the southern continent a population of eight million for a thematically pleasing 16 million Scadrians (if eight million seems low for a continent, consider that in the early 1940s Australia had a population of six million).  This seems right for a world which is in some ways still recovering from being all but depopulated during the Catacendre (just as the analogous time-and-place in our history was a point of historically low population density for the region for both North and South America).  I'm imagining something like turn-of-the-twentieth-century Wyoming/Utah/Idaho/Arizona/Colorado/Nevada/New-Mexico population density as an upper bound, with Elendel being something like Salt Lake City 'cause I'm provincial like that and when the text says "biggest city in the world, the capital", my lizard-brain inserts the biggest city I'm familiar with.

My unexamined assumptions are, among other things, that the Elendel basin is analogous to the great basin, that the continents have roughly equal populations, that the basin being the most fertile part of the world implies that Scadrial's most arable land is the equivalent of Nevada (a real-life desert region), and that this is resolved by the rest of Scadrial having agricultural potential far lower than the Earth's equivalent of not-the-great-basin rather than having the rest of Scadrial have roughly equivalent agricultural potential to its Earth-analogues and having the Elendel Basin be far more agriculturally productive than (what I imagine as) its Earth-analogue.  I didn't think twice about any of these before writing this post.

Meanwhile, Roshar has teleportation, a magic system that can turn rocks into food, and is  associated with Cultivation, so I've always assumed that Roshar is the most populous world in the Cosmere, and by a LOT, because, the same way I assume that Invention's guys and gals have the best tech, I assume that the goddess of growth's planet would have the advantages you'd expect from that.  Add to that that it essentially has germ theory and advanced medicine to remove that major population barrier, plus instant communication to solve organization issues...

I don't think it's out of the question to assume a population figure for Roshar greater than Earth's population, given that we don't have teleportation and matter converters like Roshar does, and distribution capacity, rather than production capacity, is the limit on Earth's population at this point (growing enough food's not the problem, but food's no good if you can't get it to mouths, what makes sci-fi settings be able to have such huge population numbers is the exact stuff that Roshar has and Earth doesn't), but I assume a more conservative estimate of two billion.  For the purposes of this thread, I'm going to cut my conservative estimate in half, and then in half again, to get a figure of 500 million.  Not a concrete figure as much as an order-of-magnitude guess for the absolute minimum human population I'd expect a world fitting the textual descriptions of Roshar to have.

So, my assumption is that Scadrial is the least populous planet of the named inhabited planets by an extreme margin, and that Roshar is the most populous planet of the named inhabited planets by an extreme margin.

Spoilered for boring and unsupported speculation on population figures.

I know all my assumptions are probably wrong and there's probably some Word of Brandon proving me wrong, but this is the pattern I see when I connect the dots.

With Harmony paralyzed, blinded, and wounded (permanently, as far as I can tell) while Autonomy is unscathed and undefeated, I don't think Scadrial can hold out against whatever Bavadin tries next, much less against Retribution (who we know from Wind and Truth will go after Scadrial first).  My theory is that Autonomy's repeating a pattern of wounding those who could threaten her and letting Odium finish them off so they can't become (more of) a threat to her.

None of the patterns end well for the Scadrians.  Autonomy's dominions expand and expand.  Good gods die and bad gods emerge triumphant.  The children of Ashyn leave their broken world for a new one, take it over, break it, and then leave that ruined world for a new one.  Scadrial could end up like Obrodai (I might be spelling it wrong, under an avatar of Autonomy), or it could end up like Sel (wounded shard(s) attacked and destroyed), or it could end up like Roshar (claimed by the Children of Ashyn, who take everything from the original inhabitants).

Dalinar gave Honor to Taravangian.  Bavadin broke Scadrial's defenses. From the words I have read on the printed page, I can see no way that this ends well.

Having not read The Sunlit Man or Isles Of The Emberdark yet (I'm getting the latter for Christmas), I have to wonder if maybe what those books call Scadrians are Children of Ashyn being referred to by the name of their current world in the same way that in-universe sources refer to them as Rosharans.

On 12/19/2025 at 12:38 AM, therunner said:

How are Rosharan 'preferred people' of immortal shard-splinter god-kings?  Singers chose to follow Odium instead of Honor, Honor never chose humans over Singers.

I am referring to the Heralds, and comparing them to The Lord Ruler, with Jezerezeh especially fitting as one whose death allowed for the nightmarish events that would follow.

Edited December 21, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused
Expanded the sopiler section.

[therunner he/him]

3 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Having not read The Sunlit Man or Isles Of The Emberdark yet (I'm getting the latter for Christmas), I have to wonder if maybe what those books call Scadrians are Children of Ashyn being referred to by the name of their current world in the same way that in-universe sources refer to them as Rosharans.

You will find those books quite clear as to who those Scadrians are, and 'Children of Ashyn' they are most certainly not.

Quote

I am referring to the Heralds, and comparing them to The Lord Ruler, with Jezerezeh especially fitting as one whose death allowed for the nightmarish events that would follow.

That is even worse comparison.

Heralds ruled only during Desolations (Ishar's episode in Shinovar and Tukar after drinking Odium juice not-whithstanding), and other than that were held on Braize and tortured. And even during Desolations it was less ruling, and more trying to get everything in shape so that they could survive.

TLR ruled without a break as tyrant for 1000 years.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

18 hours ago, therunner said:

You will find those books quite clear as to who those Scadrians are, and 'Children of Ashyn' they are most certainly not.

Forget it.  If you all get to root for the children of Ashyn no matter what heinous deeds they commit, then I get to root for the Scadrians no matter what heinous deeds they commit.  If you all get to regard Kaladin and Shallan as good people despite what they've done, then I get to do the same for Kelsier.  Maybe this is going to the dark side, but in that case I'm going to do a kickflip off of the concept of fairness while flipping double birds at the concept of maturity.

I'm, honestly, a little bit tired of being told to be reasonable and evenhanded when those things seem to map to "accept that you're wrong for reasons that don't make sense to you" and "agree with everybody else's unspoken notions of morality".

Edited December 22, 2025 by Aliroz-The-Confused