So, There's No Hope. (Unhinged And Unwarranted Speculation)

[Isilel]

On 1/24/2026 at 12:11 AM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

No, no, I want him to get his Oathstone back and swear himself to good Skybreakers 

 

Szeth obeying a holder of his Oathstone had  always been contingent on him being wrong about the upcoming Desolation and return of the Radiants. Taravangian was very aware of it, which is why he lied to Szeth about Kaladin having a stolen honorblade after their first clash. Throwing away the Oathstone after the arrival of the Everstorm was wholly according to the tenets in which Szeth had been raised 

 

On 2/1/2026 at 7:27 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

As of The Lost Metal, the children of Ashyn have gotten to Scadrial.

 

Iriali aren't Ashynites, they are a separate people, who move from world to world on their Long Trail. IIRC, Roshar was their fourth. We don't know when they got to Roshar, but it must have been at some later date, since there hadn't been any among Ashynite refugees in the scene of their arrival. In fact, there aren't any hints of their presence in any visions of the past that we have seen until possibly the False Desolation, where some Radiants looked like they might have been Riran.

Edited February 3 by Isilel

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Szeth obeying a holder of his Oathstone had  always been contingent on him being wrong about the upcoming Desolation and return of the Radiants. Taravangian was very aware of it, which is why he lied to Szeth about Kaladin having a stolen honorblade after their first clash. Throwing away the Oathstone after the arrival of the Everstorm was wholly according to the tenets in which Szeth had been raised 

If he hadn't renounced his oaths, I'd agree with you.

But he has completely abandoned those tenets by renouncing his oaths.  I won't regard him as Szeth until he cares about rules again like he did before Kaladin got to him. 

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Iriali aren't Ashynites, they are a separate people, who move from world to world on their Long Trail. IIRC, Roshar was their fourth. We don't know when they got to Roshar, but it must have been at some later date, since there hadn't been any among Ashynite refugees in the scene of their arrival. In fact, there aren't any in any visions of the past we have seen until possibly the False Desolation, where some Radiants looked like they might have been Riran.

I refer to the presence of Chouta as a street food.  The symbolism of such a thing outcompeting and replacing the native culinary culture, combined with The Lost Metal comparing Autonomy to an invasive species, combined with the children of Ashyn being EXACTLY THAT on Roshar, combined with the events happening during a time when Autonomy decided Harmony didn't need seeing-the-future privileges anymore, all read as terrifying symbolism/foreshadowing to me of a fait accompli.

Edited February 2 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Tenets he has since completely abandoned by renouncing his oaths.  I won't regard him as Szeth until he cares about rules again like he did before Kaladin got to him.

I'll dig through my book, though I believe that his exact words were "I release you, I was not a good match for you."

He renounced Aux, not the oaths, as can be seen by his desire to find and reswear the skybreaker ideals.

3 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I refer to the presence of Chouta as a street food.  The symbolism of such a thing outcompeting and replacing the native culinary culture, combined with The Lost Metal comparing Autonomy to an invasive species, combined with the children of Ashyn being EXACTLY THAT on Roshar, combined with the events happening during a time when Autonomy decided Harmony didn't need seeing-the-future privileges anymore, all read as terrifying symbolism to me of a fait accompli.

We don't know that was brought by Rosharans. That could easily have been stolen by enterprising Scadrians like Felt, Axwindeth or others.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'll dig through my book, though I believe that his exact words were "I release you, I was not a good match for you."

He renounced Aux, not the oaths, as can be seen by his desire to find and reswear the skybreaker ideals.

I guess I don't really understand the exact relationship between ideals, oaths, and the spren.  It seemed to me that he did pretty much the same thing that Sizgil and Dalinar did.  But if it's a different thing than I ought to consider it differently.  And that means he might not need such extreme measures to recover as I thought.

It'd be beautiful if he can re-swear the ideals, but I'm not sure a being actually can re-swear the ideals (I don't think we know of any who have done so), and it'd be pretty lame if you could just renounce and re-swear and renounce and re-swear whenever it was convenient.  I'm hoping that rededication is something that can be done, but only in full sincerity and/or if it wasn't the oaths themselves that were abandoned.

I will regard him as Szeth again and accept it if he re-swears the ideals, but he better live them and not renounce them like Dalinar and Sigzil did.  It would be wonderful if the next Stormlight archive book allowed for Szeth to find a community of people who share his absolutism and for it to be okay to be the kind of person that he and I are.  I don't want him passing on Kaladin's teachings to them and acting like a Windrunner.

But that would require mister Sanderson to validate Skybreakers and I want that too much to risk jinxing it by hoping for it too hard.

Good points, Isilel and Frustration.  Well said.

(I'd still like him to find his Oathstone again, though, if only to use it as a paperweight or something, because the idea of his hypothetical kids playing with it gives me a lot of happiness.  Or putting it somewhere special because it's a historically significant rock and my Preservation-loving heart wants things that are important to be remembered and preserved (it can be put right by that one rock that Tien liked that was two different colors)).

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We don't know that was brought by Rosharans. That could easily have been stolen by enterprising Scadrians like Felt, Axwindeth or others.

Oh my gosh, that would be utterly hilarious if I've been worrying about a red herring this entire time.  Classic Mistborn surprise, an apparent clue being a cover for a different thing.  As Kelsier said, "there's always another secret".

Also if it was Axindweth specifically then we can add "framing innocent people for the presence of Chouta" to the list of her evil deeds right by "torturing one of the coolest characters in the whole setting", "giving Venli the voidlight sphere and setting her down the path that would lead to the Everstorm", and "kidnapping a bird".

Edited February 2 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I guess I don't really understand the exact relationship between ideals, oaths, and the spren.  It seemed to me that he did pretty much the same thing that Sizgil and Dalinar did.  But if it's a different thing than I ought to consider it differently.  And that means he might not need such extreme measures to recover as I thought (though I'd still like him to find his Oathstone again, if only to use it as a paperweight or something, because the idea of his hypothetical kids playing with it gives me a lot of happiness.  Or putting it somewhere special because it's a historically significant rock and my Preservation-loving heart wants things that are important to be remembered and preserved (it can be put right by that one rock that Tien liked that was two different colors)).

I hope he can re-swear the ideals, but I'm not sure a being actually can re-swear the ideals (I don't think we know of any who have done so), and it'd be pretty lame if you could just renounce and re-swear and renounce and re-swear whenever it was convenient.  I'm hoping that rededication is something that can be done, but only in full sincerity and only if it wasn't the oaths themselves that were abandoned.

I will regard him as Szeth again and accept it if he re-swears the ideals, but he better live them and not renounce them like Dalinar and Sigzil did.  I want Szeth to find a community of people who share his absolutism and for it to be okay to be the kind of person that he and I are.  I don't want him passing on Kaladin's teachings to them and acting like a Windrunner.

But that would require mister Sanderson to validate Skybreakers and I want that too much to risk jinxing it by hoping for it too hard.

I don't have the book on me so don't quote me just yet. (I'll take a look probably by the end of the week.) But the way I see it, it was a continuation of his disappointment with his relationship with 12124. I'm remembering him mildly complaining to Kaladin that Syl would have aided Kaladin if Kaladin was in trouble despite the fact that 12124 wasn't. Likewise how Szeth wasn't living up to a lot of 12124 expectations.

I took it as Szeth looking at that and deciding they didn't work well together and should find someone else.

27 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Oh my gosh, that would be utterly hilarious if I've been worrying about a red herring this entire time.  Classic Mistborn surprise, an apparent clue being a cover for a different thing.  As Kelsier said, "there's always another secret".

Also if it was Axindweth specifically then we can add "framing innocent people for the presence of Chouta" to the list of her evil deeds right by "torturing one of the coolest characters in the whole setting", "giving Venli the voidlight sphere and setting her down the path that would lead to the Everstorm", and "kidnapping a bird".

A: "What are you in for?"

B: "Murder, and you?"

A: "I kidnapped a bird and framed innocent people for chouta."

B: "... You monster."

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

 

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Iriali aren't Ashynites, they are a separate people, who move from world to world on their Long Trail. IIRC, Roshar was their fourth. We don't know when they got to Roshar, but it must have been at some later date, since there hadn't been any among Ashynite refugees in the scene of their arrival. In fact, there aren't any in any visions of the past we have seen until possibly the False Desolation, where some Radiants looked like they might have been Riran.

 

Quoting this again because I missed the implications.

Are those the ones that worship Cusicesh and had their temple destroyed by the collector guy who tattoos his writings about spren on himself?  I thought they were Ashynites, I didn't know that they were a separate population of long-term planetary nomads.

If they only arrived after the false desolation, then that makes Cusicesh helping them vamoose feel less like consequence-dodging for Ba-Ado-Mishram's justified crashout and more like Cusicesh making sure to get unaffiliated homies out of the danger zone for said crashout.  Almost like a subtle karmic reward for being able to live in a setting without becoming the main characters of it.  If you don't get involved with Important Plot Stuff, then sometimes the Important Plot Stuff doesn't get you.

Honestly, I was a little frustrated with the idea of Mishram waiting 4500 years to go all Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera on the inheritors of the taboo-breakers only to get Charlie-Brown-football-denied at the last second by Cusi Van Pelt.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't have the book on me so don't quote me just yet. (I'll take a look probably by the end of the week.) But the way I see it, it was a continuation of his disappointment with his relationship with 12124. I'm remembering him mildly complaining to Kaladin that Syl would have aided Kaladin if Kaladin was in trouble despite the fact that 12124 wasn't. Likewise how Szeth wasn't living up to a lot of 12124 expectations.

I took it as Szeth looking at that and deciding they didn't work well together and should find someone else.

Ah.  See, I read it as 12124 trying to protect or "protect" (depending on your poitn of view) Szeth from Kaladin-and-Syl, and Syl-and-Kaladin obliquely manipulating/"manipulating" Szeth into removing himself from a good/bad influence that might counteract their own (note how Kaladin has an "oh crap" reaction when 12124 shows up with Nalan and Szeth is no longer safely isolated from not-Windrunner-approved views).

But this reading would have Szeth refusing a bond that would be bad rather than convince the spren that it is good, making him the opposite of Navani with regards to the Sibling and Dalinar with regards to the Stormfather (as Aeshdan pointed out in this post:)

  

On 1/29/2026 at 5:29 AM, Aeshdan said:

@Aliroz-The-Confused, I would like to bring up another incident from the books which I think really fits with what you are saying here (I'm actually suprised you haven't brought it up yet), and that is Dalinar wrestling with the Stormfather in Rhythm Of War, overriding him and forcing the storm to do things that it wasn't intended to do. That made me very uncomfortable when I read it, and I remember thinking "Okay, Sanderson probably isn't going to do this, but this sequence really feels to me like foreshadowing that Dalinar is going to push the Stormfather too hard and break the Highstorms themselves".

(Sorry for not replying to this before.  Yeah, this is a really good point Aeshdan makes.  Dalinar also bullies the Stormfather a fair bit in Wind And Truth, and even at points before Rhythm of War.)

And it would also make Szeth kind of an opposite of Sigzil, in that Sigzil breaks a bond that he thinks is good while Szeth breaks one that he thinks is bad.

  

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

A: "What are you in for?"

B: "Murder, and you?"

A: "I kidnapped a bird and framed innocent people for chouta."

B: "... You monster."

Teehee, I can imagine the meme.

Edited February 2 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Quoting this again because I missed the implications.

Are those the ones that worship Cusicesh and had their temple destroyed by the collector guy who tattoos his writings about spren on himself?  I thought they were Ashynites, I didn't know that they were a separate population of long-term planetary nomads.

If they only arrived after the false desolation, then that makes Cusicesh helping them vamoose feel less like consequence-dodging for Ba-Ado-Mishram's justified crashout and more like Cusicesh making sure to get unaffiliated homies out of the danger zone for said crashout.  Almost like a subtle karmic reward for being able to live in a setting without becoming the main characters of it.  If you don't get involved with Important Plot Stuff, then sometimes the Important Plot Stuff doesn't get you.

Honestly, I was a little frustrated with the idea of Mishram waiting 4500 years to go all Alecto, Tisiphone, and Megaera on the inheritors of the taboo-breakers only to get Charlie-Brown-football-denied at the last second by Cusi Van Pelt.

Yeah those guys. We don't know when they showed up but they arrived after the desolations started at a the very earliest.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

  

On 2/2/2026 at 3:23 PM, Frustration said:

Yeah those guys. We don't know when they showed up but they arrived after the desolations started at a the very earliest.

 

I bet they're sad about having to leave Roshar and Cusicesh so unexpectedly.  Especially when it's entirely because of other people's actions.

Honestly, I'd really like if the Ashynite humans found themselves viewed unfavorably by others in the Cosmere.  Considering that Dalinar intentionally escalated the Odium situation to make it everybody else's problem, there's bound to be some resentment, or at least some good salt, from the other Shards, and from anyone who doesn't want to get wrecked by Retribution (which is just about everyone).

If all we knew of Shallan was the pages of chapter 147 where she interacts with Ala and talks to Kelsier (which I quoted on page 4), we'd see her much differently, and much less positively.  Frustration confirmed earlier in the thread that mister Sanderson intentionally writes so as to downplay the unsympathetic aspects of his protagonists to keep them sympathetic to readers.

Considering the genocide of the Listeners and the invasion of the Unclaimed Hills and Shattered plains, considering what happened to the Listeners and the Singers, and considering the timeline, if there are Ashynites on Roshar in The Lost Metal they are the same generations as in The Stormlight Archive.   I'd really like it if their atrocities towards the Singers ended up having consequences for how the children of Ashyn are seen by everyone else, for example, if "Aleth" became a linguistic root on several worlds for the concept of genocide, or some variation of "Kholin" became a linguistic root meaning "war crime", just as how "vandal" became a root referring to what the Vandals did.

I'd also really like it if the Scadrians managed to have an advantage in making friends and allies (paying off Kelsier's tendency towards trusting even when it's risky).  It would fit the theming of Harmony, and it would throw a much-needed bone for the guys and gals who have the weakest magic system, the most constrained god, the lowest population, and who have gotten no advantages (only nerfs, disadvantages, and bummers) from mister Sanderson since 2009 (technology doesn't count, it's obviously a setup for a rug-pull when Invention shows up, and anything the Scadrians come up with can be reverse-engineered by others).  It would also fit the theming of them opposing Autonomy, rejecting her Isolationism and "all must be separate" themes for the power of friendship.  It would fit how the ghostbloods have gals and fellas from all sorts of worlds.

But that would require giving the Scadrians a W and the Ashynites an L in some way, and that seems quite unlikely given the existing patterns.  Also that would be an uncomplicated win against Autonomy, which is unlikely to happen because Bavadin is, from what I've heard, one of mister Sanderson's favorite characters.

If we get plot-important distrust, resentment, or ill-will towards the children of Ashyn from the rest of the Cosmere, it will likely be as a setup for the Ashynites to have Character Development and prove themselves.  A setup for apologies and "learning not to judge people" Character Development for whoever judges the Radiants (like what we see with the Honorspren of Lasting Integrity and with Rlain).  A setup for making unlikely friends because the threat of Retribution is so bad that you have to ally with people you might not want to, and then realizing that they're more like you than you thought, for speeches about "we did bad but we're trying to do better".  In other words, a setup for the children of Ashyn to get what they want and be absolved for their wrongs, just like they always seem to do.

Edited February 5 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Qianweilian He/him]

53 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

for example, if "Aleth" became a linguistic root on several worlds for the concept of genocide, or some variation of "Kholin" became a linguistic root meaning "war crime", just as how "vandal" became a root referring to what the Vandals did.

I don’t really know if this has the possibility of happening. The Vandals were around for centuries. While “aleth” is somewhat connected to genocide, it really only happened twice, once with Sadees, and once with the listeners. I don’t really think that that’s enough to permanently affect language. The only war crime that was significantly outside the norm for Roshar is the burning of Rathalas, again a one off event, not enough to affect language. Despite the genocide against Native Americans, “America” is not synonymous with “genocide,” much less “Jackson.” (or many other presidents)

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

If all we knew of Shallan was the pages of chapter 147 where she interacts with Ala and talks to Kelsier (which I quoted on page 4), we'd see her much differently, and much less positively.

If all we knew about you, Aliroz, was one conversation that you had with the leader of a foreign secret organization—say the KGB, that you broke with on bad terms, attempted to assassinate your mentor, held your siblings hostage, while you are separated from your spouse for the foreseeable future, the god you knew had been replaced by a man you hate, everything you know about Earth is turned upside down, you’ve lost in a global conflict, and we don’t know any of this context, it wouldn’t be the same, would it?

[Immortal Platypus]

3 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I bet they're sad about having to leave Roshar and Cusicesh so unexpectedly.  Especially when it's entirely because of other people's actions.

My interpretation of the text wasn't that they left because of other people's actions, it was that they left because it was time to leave, because Cusicesh (or someone/thing above him). I'd be curious to hear why you see it the way you do.

Side note, after looking into it to see if there was confirmation on exactly why they left (which I didn't find, other than the fact that Cusicesh told them it was time), it seems that they might have traveled to Scadrial and might even have been the cause of the chouta there (in the same way that general Rosharans/Ashynites would have caused it). That would mean that the general population of Roshar, those originating from Ashyn, might not have even traveled to Roshar as of TLM.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I don’t really know if this has the possibility of happening. The Vandals were around for centuries. While “aleth” is somewhat connected to genocide, it really only happened twice, once with Sadees, and once with the listeners. I don’t really think that that’s enough to permanently affect language. The only war crime that was significantly outside the norm for Roshar is the burning of Rathalas, again a one off event, not enough to affect language. Despite the genocide against Native Americans, “America” is not synonymous with “genocide,” much less “Jackson.” (or many other presidents)

Yeah, it's obviously not going to happen.  The reason I used it as an example or point of comparison was to quickly and simply express the idea of reputation damage as a result of doing/participating-in/being-a-party-to Evil Heinous Crud, wherein sometimes when Jasnah, Kaladin, Shallan, or whatever-currently-living Knight Radiants try to make a good first impression on the inhabitants of other worlds, the reputation of what they did/participated-in/were-a-party-to precedes them.

Going from "first contact" to "friends now, peace treaty, allies" to "we have killed a quarter of them and have no plans on stopping" in less than a decade as the most recent point of comparison for "meeting new peoples/species" does not make people like Jasnah (whose brother and father were the kings in charge of this) come off well to potential new allies.  At some point, whoever they meet with is going to have to learn of these things because it's critical context for how things got to this point, and it's better they learn it sooner and from the Ashynites than later and from Retribution's minions or later and from some other source.  If it just gets swept under the rug and doesn't matter to anyone except the singers, I'm going to be quite disappointed.

The narrative of the Mistborn Trilogy harshly judges Kelsier for spending his youth thieving and living it up while Marsh tried to rebel against The Final Empire, because Mistborn presupposes a moral obligation to actively rebel against authority that does Evil Heinous Crud no matter how risky and no matter how powerful the authority.  But people like the Kholins (outside of Gavilar and Elhokar) and their associates face no such narrative condemnation for not rebelling against Elhokar for the Evil Heinous Crud that is the genocidal campaign for the Shattered Plains.  It seems to me that the Mistborn trilogy does morality on hard mode and The Stormlight Archive does morality on normal or easy mode.

I mean, surely Hoid must have known that the "Parshendi" were brain-trapped Singers, and Hoid clearly knew that the Alethi were extinguishing the last free population of the planet's native sentient species, so on the reread him showing up in The Way Of Kings to be a courtier to the Kholin monarchy comes off as an inscrutable trickster trying to play ???-dimensional chess against Rayse, and his "And while I am your friend, please understand that our goals do not completely align. You must not trust yourself with me.  If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I want, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen." bit in Words of Radiance comes off less as a warning and more of an understated confession that he's already chosen to let what happens to the Singers happen without trying to to stop it and that he's starting to choose to let horrible things happen to the humans without trying to stop it.

 

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

If all we knew about you, Aliroz, was one conversation that you had with the leader of a foreign secret organization—say the KGB, that you broke with on bad terms, attempted to assassinate your mentor, held your siblings hostage, while you are separated from your spouse for the foreseeable future, the god you knew had been replaced by a man you hate, everything you know about Earth is turned upside down, you’ve lost in a global conflict, and we don’t know any of this context, it wouldn’t be the same, would it?

Indeed, it wouldn't.  I wouldn't come off very well at all, I think, and it would showcase my worst qualities, the very qualities that would make me unsuitable as a negotiator or diplomat, which is why I'm neither of those things.

Having no other context, you'd have to conclude "this person is no good and should probably not be in charge of anything of life-or-death importance, ever.".

As sympathetic as these heavily-traumatized and realistically-flawed characters are, a great deal of that sympathetic-ness comes from the framing, from having a pipeline into their intentions via their point-of-view chapters, and from flashback chapters, crucial context which the in-universe inhabitants of the Cosmere do not have in the way we have it.  The Radiants are, in ways that extend to the mind, the heart, and the soul, broken-and-put-back-together, wounded-and-healing.  They're learning how to do right by themselves and right by other people, and it's natural, I think, for many of them to struggle with the sort of social interaction that might very well be urgently needed soon to get others to trust them.  Vasher is kind of the same way in Warbreaker; he's not charming, witty, or endearing like Denth and his friends, and it takes time for Vivenna to trust him and to figure out that he's a good person who is on the level but struggles to communicate effectively.

If mister Sanderson wants to explore these themes of mental illness, redemption, and troubled individuals in a multi-world context, it seems apt to explore the experience of "making new friends and getting people to trust me is an uphill battle, and it doesn't come as easily to me as it does to other people, leading to me having to work harder for the same result.  Not everyone is willing or able to understand or connect with me.".  However, he seems to have a tendency to have the Radiants talk to people, then have the people agree, and a lot of the time the Radiants seem to me to talk at people rather than with them (I do this, it doesn't work as well in real life or on the internet, it just alienates people and gives everyone an urge to prove me wrong).  It works, but I'd like to see it NOT work on people who aren't on Roshar.  I'd like to see "the ghostbloods have probably been active for centuries, in many places around the Cosmere" + "the children of Ashyn don't have a precedent for long-term good-faith interaction with anyone except themselves and beings spiritually devoted to them, and are just barely having their first interactions with other worlds" = "experienced/inexperienced, respectively, in making-friends/manipulating-or-scamming-people from other worlds".

  

1 hour ago, Immortal Platypus said:

My interpretation of the text wasn't that they left because of other people's actions, it was that they left because it was time to leave, because Cusicesh (or someone/thing above him). I'd be curious to hear why you see it the way you do.

Side note, after looking into it to see if there was confirmation on exactly why they left (which I didn't find, other than the fact that Cusicesh told them it was time), it seems that they might have traveled to Scadrial and might even have been the cause of the chouta there (in the same way that general Rosharans/Ashynites would have caused it). That would mean that the general population of Roshar, those originating from Ashyn, might not have even traveled to Roshar as of TLM.

I thought Cusicesh more or less went "I like you guys.  Ba-Ado Mishram's about to crash out.  Get out of here while you still can!  Don't be on this planet tomorrow!".  Or, in other words, Charlie Ba-ado and Cusi van Pelt, football denial except the football is people.

If it turns out that the Ashynites aren't on Scadrial I will be happy as a clam at high tide, because that means that the Ghostblood series might not actually be about the children of Ashyn like I thought it was going to be, and that means I only have to worry about Autonomy and Retribution, who are respectively slightly less scary and much less scary in terms of "likelihood that the Author's going to let them claim Scadrial".

Edited February 6 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Qianweilian He/him]

12 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

As sympathetic as these heavily-traumatized and realistically-flawed characters are, a great deal of that sympathetic-ness comes from the framing, from having a pipeline into their intentions via their point-of-view chapters, and from flashback chapters, crucial context which the in-universe inhabitants of the Cosmere do not have in the way we have it.  The Radiants are, in ways that extend to the mind, the heart, and the soul, broken-and-put-back-together, wounded-and-healing.  They're learning how to do right by themselves and right by other people, and it's natural, I think, for many of them to struggle with the sort of social interaction that might very well be urgently needed soon to get others to trust them.  Vasher is kind of the same way in Warbreaker; he's not charming, witty, or endearing like Denth and his friends, and it takes time for Vivenna to trust him and to figure out that he's a good person who is on the level but struggles to communicate effectively.

If mister Sanderson wants to explore these themes of mental illness, redemption, and troubled individuals in a multi-world context, it seems apt to explore the experience of "making new friends and getting people to trust me is an uphill battle, and it doesn't come as easily to me as it does to other people, leading to me having to work harder for the same result.  Not everyone is willing or able to understand or connect with me.".  However, he seems to have a tendency to have the Radiants talk to people, then have the people agree, and a lot of the time the Radiants seem to me to talk at people rather than with them (I do this, it doesn't work as well in real life or on the internet, it just alienates people and gives everyone an urge to prove me wrong).

Honestly, this is an astoundingly good point. The only real struggling Radiants in negotiations are Dalinar and Jasnah, one of whom who eventually convinces everyone anyways, and the other is debated by a god who attacks her philosophy and leaves her crying (at least internally). Kaladin converts Szeth to his mental health crusade in a matter of days, something that often takes years—or at least months—in the real world. Shallan gains the service of deserters about to attack her caravan, Navani convinces the Sibling in days (although I’ll excuse that one, as it was a life-or-death situation for the Sibling), etc. 

In Mistborn, negotiation is much harder. Yeden, while bought into Kelsier’s plan, goes rogue and decimates the skaa army. Jastes is unconvinced by Elend to take the koloss away (and is later executed by Elend, but not relevant), Cett only came over after Vin forced him to swear allegiance, Zane had to be killed by Vin, Yomen only after the koloss started killing everyone, etc. Miles is never convinced by Wax, nor his uncle, nor Telsin, and only got to use the Malwish ship after showing off the Bands of Mourning. 

Edit:

12 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

It seems to me that the Mistborn trilogy does morality on hard mode and The Stormlight Archive does morality on normal or easy mode.

This might be right too. Jasnah is “yay, democracy” and “we will have an elected senate and a ministerial exemplar” while doing absolute monarch mode. Elend grapples with the failures of his attempted democracy, and even respects losing until the world ending makes that impossible for a democracy to function effectively in a world that was ruled by an immortal dictator for a millennium.

Edited February 6 by Qianweilian

[Immortal Platypus]

10 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

In Mistborn, negotiation is much harder. Yeden, while bought into Kelsier’s plan, goes rogue and decimates the skaa army. Jastes is unconvinced by Elend to take the koloss away (and is later executed by Elend, but not relevant), Cett only came over after Vin forced him to swear allegiance, Zane had to be killed by Vin, Yomen only after the koloss started killing everyone, etc. Miles is never convinced by Wax, nor his uncle, nor Telsin, and only got to use the Malwish ship after showing off the Bands of Mourning. 

Although, there are exceptions. It doesn't take much convincing from Kelsier to get Breeze and Ham to agree to take down TLR, it takes a little more for Clubs, but not much, and Yeden agrees at first. I'm sure there are others, but I'm still in my re-read to remember Mistborn better, so I can't recall things right now.

[Qianweilian He/him]

50 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

Although, there are exceptions. It doesn't take much convincing from Kelsier to get Breeze and Ham to agree to take down TLR, it takes a little more for Clubs, but not much, and Yeden agrees at first. I'm sure there are others, but I'm still in my re-read to remember Mistborn better, so I can't recall things right now.

It’s true, there are. But Kelsier is an extremely charismatic person who has worked with Breeze, Ham, and Clubs for much of their lives. Yeden did buy into Kel’s plan, (which I wasn’t trying to argue), but he did break with it later to attack Holstep.

Edit: And as I said, more of the stuff Roz was talking about happens in Stormlight.

Edit2: I entirely forgot Elend’s complete failure to maintain power in the government of his making.

Edited February 6 by Qianweilian

[Isilel]

22 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I'd also really like it if the Scadrians managed to have an advantage in making friends and allies (paying off Kelsier's tendency towards trusting even when it's risky). 

 

If Ghostblood interference on other worlds looks anything like what they did on Roshar, not likely. 

Some of it was due to Iyatil going off the rails, sure, but most of it was at  Kelsier's direction. 

He was helping Gavilar bring back the Desolations, he ordered a kidnapping/murder of a Herald, he had some unsavoury plans for Ba-Ado-Mishram (Iyatil and Co had their own plans on top of that), he wanted the Ghostbloods to grab Urithiru and it's Oathgates for themselves and prevent anyone else from finding it, etc. There is no proof yet, but I, for one, am convinced that Axindweth was working for Kelsier when she gave Ulim to Venli. 

Kelsier was not just willing to let Roshar burn, but was actively pouring oil on the fire. In the name of protecting Scadrial, of course. Except that all of it actually helped put Scadrial in more danger in the end.

I see no reason to think that Rosharans  would steal the limelight in the Ghostbloods trilogy. Sanderson wouldn't want to spoil what's going on there ahead of the second half of Stormlight Archive and there is more than enough to learn about the Mawlish, Autonomy etc.

Re: certain Rosharan characters being able to convince people, they literally have supernatural abilities that help them do it. Kelsier used Breeze for the same purpose, BTW.

We have no idea how Jasnah's attempts at reforming society are going to play out either, so it is rather premature to compare her with Elend. Though, given her greater experience and historical knowledge, it would be very plausible for her to do better.

Edited February 6 by Isilel

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

 

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

Some of it was due to Iyatil going off the rails, sure, but most of it was at  Kelsier's direction. 

He was helping Gavilar bring back the Desolations, he ordered a kidnapping/murder of a Herald, he had some unsavoury plans for Ba-Ado-Mishram (Iyatil and Co had their own plans on top of that), he wanted the Ghostbloods to grab Urithiru and it's Oathgates for themselves and prevent anyone else from finding it, etc. There is no proof yet, but I, for one, am convinced that Axindweth was working for Kelsier when she gave Ulim to Venli. 

Kelsier was not just willing to let Roshar burn, but was actively pouring oil on the fire. In the name of protecting Scadrial, of course. Except that all of it actually helped put Scadrial in more danger in the end.

At this point, Kelsier could pull out a death ray and disintegrate an adorable kitten and my reaction would be, "Oh my gosh!  You know what this means?  This means kittens can be evil now!".

Edited February 6 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

We have no idea how Jasnah's attempts at reforming society are going to play out either, so it is rather premature to compare her with Elend. Though, given her greater experience and historical knowledge, it would be very plausible for her to do better.

Given her almost complete lack of basic human decency I have to disagree.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

If Ghostblood interference on other worlds looks anything like what they did on Roshar, not likely. 

Some of it was due to Iyatil going off the rails, sure, but most of it was at  Kelsier's direction. 

He was helping Gavilar bring back the Desolations, he ordered a kidnapping/murder of a Herald, he had some unsavoury plans for Ba-Ado-Mishram (Iyatil and Co had their own plans on top of that), he wanted the Ghostbloods to grab Urithiru and it's Oathgates for themselves and prevent anyone else from finding it, etc. There is no proof yet, but I, for one, am convinced that Axindweth was working for Kelsier when she gave Ulim to Venli. 

 I was, a few posts back, told that information without context (a few pages of conversation) is insufficient grounds to condemn a character.

We never get to read a Ghostblood point of view, except, technically, Kelsier's in The Lost Metal.  I base my guesses on how the Ghostbloods act on non-Roshar worlds on The Lost Metal rather than on The Stormlight Archive.

I believe this is intentional, and done for the same reason as the near-absence of Singer point-of-view content (as well as the near-absence of Spren point-of-view content):  to curate the reading experience to be maximally sympathetic to the children of Ashyn.

When mister Sanderson includes perspectives like Taravangian's, it serves to remind us why the reader ought to root for the Kholins against him.  When he includes perspectives like Moash, it reminds us why we hate Moash and want infinite suffering for him.

The absolute lack of Ghostblood points of view in The Stormlight Archive implies, to me, that mister Sanderson is worried that including them would in some way compromise the framing which keeps the Ashynite protagonists sympathetic to the reader.

Interestingly, even The Lost Metal lacks Ghostblood points of view, which to me implies that mister Sanderson doesn't want to let the reader start liking them too much.  This reminds me of the near-absence of certain skaa points of view in the original Mistborn trilogy.

I do not agree with you about Axindweth.

(Also, "it's" is a contraction.  You mean "Uruthiru and its Oathgates".)

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

I see no reason to think that Rosharans  would steal the limelight in the Ghostbloods trilogy. Sanderson wouldn't want to spoil what's going on there ahead of the second half of Stormlight Archive and there is more than enough to learn about the Mawlish, Autonomy etc.

They stole the limelight from the Singers.

Taravangian even stole Rayse's role as Final Boss, and after such an incredible buildup over so many books and so many years! (I can't even be mad about this one since it was done so well, but still, a massive bummer for anyone who wanted to see the people of Sel interact with the butthole who killed Aona and Skai).

Anything that contains the children of Ashyn becomes about the children of Ashyn, and anything that threatens their dominance over the story is ignored, downplayed, erased, shifted to be revealed multiple books later in a flashback, revealed to be wrong, hidden in a couple of paragraphs blanketed by hundreds of pages of love triangles and inner angst, undercut, or repurposed to fuel their stories.

The Stormlight Archive proves exactly how stories where Ghostbloods and Ashynites interact go, and how much limelight Ghostbloods get to have.

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

Re: certain Rosharan characters being able to convince people, they literally have supernatural abilities that help them do it. Kelsier used Breeze for the same purpose, BTW.

It's entirely different.  Emotional allomancy wears off.  Interaction with The Stormlight Archive's protagonists does not (see: Kaladin convincing Sigzil to kill his conscience).  Ten days with Kaladin rewrites your entire personality no matter how stubborn you are, and, as far as we can tell, it's permanent.

At this point I give it a few weeks before Ala switches loyalty to Shallan, given existing patterns.

Also, emotional allomancy was always presented as a terrifying magic and one of the most horrifying things in Mistborn.  The Windrunner Main Character Energy being that times infinity is presented as wholesome good influence.

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

We have no idea how Jasnah's attempts at reforming society are going to play out either, so it is rather premature to compare her with Elend. Though, given her greater experience and historical knowledge, it would be very plausible for her to do better.

 Spoilered for overly-wordy unreasonable flailing.

Spoiler

Considering that she's a heretic queen, she ought to have outright rebellion by the Vorin faithful.  Her authority is based only on power, not on the consent of the governed or the will of the divine.  In my opinion, the only reasons she hasn't had outright rebellion yet is because of 1) author favoritism, 2) her position of absolute power over Alethkar, wherein no rebellion against her can be expected to succeed, 3) her ability to kill anyone she wants by wanting them to be fire or smoke instead of flesh, 4) the restoration of the Singers to freedom from slavery giving the Alethi a common enemy, 5) the apocalypse making Odium and later Retribution a more urgent threat, 6) People who are problems to the Kholins, like Torol and Ialai Sadeas, tend to mysteriously and violently die.

She's already removed a means for wronged parties to seek recompense (honor-duels) and replaced it with her preferred system of arbitration.

All things considered, the Vorin church has been remarkably, incredibly, astoundingly patient with her.  Compare that to the nobles of Elendel.

EDIT:  Frustration said it better than I could have.  

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given her almost complete lack of basic human decency I have to disagree.

JASNAH HATE GANG REPRESENT!

*High-fives, backflips, poses*

Edited February 6 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

All things considered, the Vorin church has been remarkably, incredibly, astoundingly patient with her.  Compare that to the nobles of Elendel.

The nobles in WoA have far more power than the Vorin church, of which the entire structure (slave ardents) is designed to minimize political power and their theology is suspect. While they have been astonishingly patient, they aren't in a position to do anything.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

She's already removed a means for wronged parties to seek recompense (honor-duels) and replaced it with her preferred system of arbitration.

Jasnah detractions aside, this is very much a good thing. 

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Ten days with Kaladin rewrites your entire personality no matter how stubborn you are, and, as far as we can tell, it's permanent.

Except Moash. And I would argue it's not a complete override, but yes.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Also, emotional allomancy was always presented as a terrifying magic and one of the most horrifying things in Mistborn.  The Windrunner Main Character Energy being that times infinity is presented as wholesome good influence.

No, I wouldn't say it's presented as terrifying (breeze isn't a terrifying character), but more complex. Second point yes.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The Stormlight Archive proves exactly how stories where Ghostbloods and Ashynites interact go, and how much limelight Ghostbloods get to have.

Tbf, it is a story about Roshar and Rosharans. We'll see in Ghostbloods.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Taravangian even stole Rayse's role as Final Boss, and after such an incredible buildup over so many books and so many years! (I can't even be mad about this one since it was done so well, but still, a massive bummer for anyone who wanted to see the people of Sel interact with the butthole who killed Aona and Skai).

First of all, Rayse is not from Roshar, while Taravangian is. And yes, it was done very well, but not without reason. Rayse was very solidly defeated in both O and RoW, he ceased to be threatening. Taravangian is a far more terrifying foe who reintroduces tension.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Her authority is based only on power, not on the consent of the governed or the will of the divine.

That's how all governments work. Even democracies don't just ask you before they enforce their laws on you, regardless of whether you do or even can vote. It just turns out that the crucial supporters in democracies happen to be the general population as a whole.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

In my opinion, the only reasons she hasn't had outright rebellion yet is because of 1) author favoritism, 2) her position of absolute power over Alethkar, wherein no rebellion against her can be expected to succeed, 3) her ability to kill anyone she wants by wanting them to be fire or smoke instead of flesh, 4) the restoration of the Singers to freedom from slavery giving the Alethi a common enemy, 5) the apocalypse making Odium and later Retribution a more urgent threat, 6) People who are problems to the Kholins, like Torol and Ialai Sadeas, tend to mysteriously and violently die.

No, yes, no, yes, yes, yes.

Jasnah has (had) all she needs to stay in power. The Radiants, army, and what administration there is support her wholeheartedly. The opinion of highprinces, Vorinism, the common people, etc. doesn't actually matter as long as she keeps her crucial supporters. This isn't literary convience, but reality.

Edit: look up "Rules for Rulers" by CGP gray. It gets the concept across. If you want to read a book, then "The Dictator's Handbook" by Bruce Bueno De Mesquita & Alastair Smith covers it well.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

JASNAH HATE GANG REPRESENT!

*High-fives, backflips, poses*

Hopefully her book actually makes her a likeable character.

Edited February 6 by Qianweilian

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

That's how all governments work. Even democracies don't just ask you before they enforce their laws on you, regardless of whether you do or even can vote. It just turns out that the crucial supporters in democracies happen to be the general population as a whole.

No, that's how modernity insists all governments work (and modernity insists that that's how all governments always worked), because if it wasn't the legitimacy of all modern governance would be threatened. 

Spoilered for tedious rambling.

Spoiler

 

The idea that all governance is based on power and only on power is a construction invented to keep the anarchists (who would be much more of a hindrance to the powers that be if they figured out how perceived legitimacy, aesthetics, approval, and all the other things that social structures are based on actually work) and their spiritual twins the authoritarians (who would be much more of a hindrance to to the powers that be if they remembered that authority can derive from things other than power) under control.  Basically, the Neutral alignments teaming up to play the Lawful and Chaotic alignments against one another.

 

Pre-modern authorities almost invariably acknowledged greater authorities (most often God or gods).  Pre-modern cultures almost invariably had unwritten laws/customs/traditions that were beyond the capacity of any governing authority to change.

Modernity didn't invent the idea of having checks on the secularly powerful, it destroyed the idea by removing the checks that existed (often in the forms of organized religious hierarchies), placing extreme military capacity in the hands of centralized power structures to the point no resistance was possible, dissolving taboos against atrocity, fragmenting individual-based tyranny into committee-based tyranny (much harder to kill two rulers than one, and far harder than that to kill a dozen, and far harder than that to kill a hundred), inventing widespread information dispersion in easily-controlled forms, and teaching that reason was the only virtue (removing Pathos and Ethos from decision-making, leaving only Logos).  Then, after nearly destroying itself through the generations of its own nonsense, it slowly reconstructed the idea that there need to be guardrails for power structures.  Then, to spare itself embarrassment, it constructed a progress narrative where all of humanity prior to the last tiny sliver was Terrible and Less Civilized Than Us Now and Didn't Know Better, just in case anybody still had the nerve to question whether the ancients might have been on to something.

This sort of badness is the very thing that the Fantasy, the Western, and the Sci-fi are escapes from, and it has no business being in a fantasy book series.  It is also the sort of thing that the Kholins do, which is why they are so thoroughly redefining their world to no longer be a fantasy world, and their books to not be fantasy.  They enslave the fairies because the wild and free fairyland is a world that does not, on the thematic and emotional level, support their modernist desires for unchecked power and progress.  They create systems where organized religion is powerless because a world where the high priestess can tell the Emperor to go pound sand because a servant of the gods outranks a king of men is a world where something exists that is greater than the Kholins.  They renounce oaths and introduce soulless pragmatism because a world where "because I made a promise" is justification in itself is a world where there exists some transcendental Right and Wrong to which the Kholins may be found lacking.

At the end of Wind and Truth they have succeeded in getting Cultivation to scram (vanquishing the mother dragon from her hoard/treasure/world), making Honor and Odium the same enemy (a rival modernist, Taravangian, rather than the ancient mythical evil of Rayse), and banishing the Evil Spirit Of Excess Emotion (Nergaoul/the Thrill) while tentatively negotiating with the Rebellious Spirit Of Enlightenment (Sja-anat).  Truly, a masterful colonization of fairyland.

Further, they have subordinated the will of what divinity remains (the Sibling) to their own ends (so as to have free access to Towerlight without worrying about whether or not The Sibling will or can object to what they do-- no higher moral authority remains to judge the Radiants, no greater authority remains to ask anything of them, the only god remaining is the Enemy God).  They have made Roshar a world where Lift cannot remain an innocent child, where Chasmfiends are all but extinct, where the artificial machine for indoor lighting and heating replaces the hearth and the instant message replaces the single brave messenger on horseback, and where a growing bureaucracy manages the transition from the days of warrior-kings and prophecies to the days of nation-states and the scientific method.

I do not think that Elodi of the Singers and Gavilar Kholin of the Alethi are meant to be the same sort of all-authority-is-just-power king, and if there is anything that I get from The Stormlight Archive, it is a profound ache and sorrow that Elodi's world became Gavilar's, the same profound ache and sorrow from all of Sazed's recollections of extinguished religious traditions and Mare's dreams of flowers.

Perhaps The Stormlight Archive is a lamentation, a funeral dirge for the dying genre of fantasy as it succumbs to nuance, an elegy for Roshar.

Or, in other words, nuh-uh!  Authority's not just power.  I got... metaphors and stuff... and feelings about fairytales.  Just wait, it's gonna be a whole thing when some cool monarchs show up instead of these Kholin upstarts.

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

No, I wouldn't say it's presented as terrifying (breeze isn't a terrifying character), but more complex. Second point yes.

I always found Breeze and Alrianne to be utterly terrifying, in some ways more than the Steel Inquisitors.

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Tbf, it is a story about Roshar and Rosharans. We'll see in Ghostbloods.

No, it's a story about the children of Ashyn.  The Rosharans get less pagetime than Ashynite love triangles do.

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

First of all, Rayse is not from Roshar, while Taravangian is. And yes, it was done very well, but not without reason. Rayse was very solidly defeated in both O and RoW, he ceased to be threatening. Taravangian is a far more terrifying foe who reintroduces tension.

I never really felt like Rayse was defeated (until his death), same as I have never felt like Bavadin was defeated.  The murderer of Uli Da, Aona and Skai (with Bavadin's help if my theory is correct), and Tanavast, defiler of worlds (responsible for Sel and Threnody being the way they are), arch-enemy of Hoid, creator of Sja-anat, and architect of the main characters' pain and suffering, was still plenty threatening, especially knowing how many books there still were remaining.  On a logarithmic scale of 0 to 100 scariness, Rayse got up to 91 at peak and never dropped lower than 76.

It's just that Taravangian went from 0 to 80 the instant we figured out what kind of person he was in The Way of Kings, stayed there, and then went to 100 on the last sentence of chapter 114 of Rhythm of War.

 

  EDITED TO ADD:

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Edit: look up "Rules for Rulers" by CGP gray. It gets the concept across. If you want to read a book, then "The Dictator's Handbook" by Bruce Bueno De Mesquita & Alastair Smith covers it well.

That's exactly the kind of framework I'm criticizing Jasnah for having, though.  

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Jasnah has (had) all she needs to stay in power. The Radiants, army, and what administration there is support her wholeheartedly. The opinion of highprinces, Vorinism, the common people, etc. doesn't actually matter as long as she keeps her crucial supporters. This isn't literary convience, but reality.

None of that matters in terms of keeping power for now, perhaps, but in terms of Not Getting Your Face Stomped At The End Of Your Story, that kind of illegitimate tyranny makes promises that it just can't keep in a fantasy series.  You can't play tyrant games without winning tyrant prizes in this type of fiction, you know? (Not that she's gone that far, but it's early years yet, give her enough power and a thousand years and she'll give Rashek a run for his money).

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Hopefully her book actually makes her a likeable character.

What do you mean, "her book"?

EDIT:  WOOT WOOT MY 256th post!  16*16, yeah!

Edited February 7 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

No, it's a story about the children of Ashyn.  The Rosharans get less pagetime than Ashynite love triangles do

Alliroz, am I an American?

Because if you consider me to be you have to consider Kaladin Rosharan.

What about Herdazians or Horneaters? Both of them have both human and singer ancestry.

Heck Syl and Pattern are every bit as native to Roshar as Rlain and Venli are.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Alliroz, am I an American?

Because if you consider me to be you have to consider Kaladin Rosharan.

Doesn't work that way with planets, in my opinion.  Can't explain why, it just doesn't.

But since this thread has gone over such terminology disputes before, I'll concede the point that precisely zero people agree with me on this.

Fine, Kaladin is Rosharan.

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What about Herdazians or Horneaters? Both of them have both human and singer ancestry.

Wait, what?  I don't remember this ever being a thing?  Was this in a WOB?  This is absolutely terrifying and shatters what I thought I understood.

24 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Heck Syl and Pattern are every bit as native to Roshar as Rlain and Venli are.

Okay, fair, Syl and Pattern are Rosharan (though, to be fair, Syl's point-of-view content, added to Singer point-of-view content, is probably still less pages than Kholin Romance Subplots / Love Triangles Making Me Want To Barf content.  And, to be fair, I'm not sure I consider Syl to be entirely free-willed because the Nahel bond makes me incredibly uncomfortable for reasons I don't want to get into), I was just being salty about the lack of Singer content.

If The Stormlight Archive didn't exist, I'd be writing salt about Zane/Vin/Elend content taking up pages that should have been more skaa points of view.  Mister Sanderson's biggest flaw as a writer has always been his romance subplots (outside of Raoden and Sarene, and perhaps Tess and Charlie), and his second biggest flaw as a writer has always been his inordinate fixation on characters over worldbuilding as the core of stories when worldbuilding is what he's good at and the magic systems are what made the Cosmere a success in the first place.  Guy thinks that his worlds and magic systems are enjoyable-but-not-the-point structural necessities to write stuff about characters, when the Cosmere's characters have always been the weakest part of the books and function best as enjoyable-but-not-the-point structural necessities to explore the possibilities of the imagination.

Poor mister Sanderson thinks that The Stormlight Archive became popular because of its characters.  It became popular because epic canyons with giant enemy crabs are freaking awesome.  Everybody wants to read about fossil-resembling megafauna in the fantasy equivalent of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, but we're all just too prim and proper to admit to liking Hype Stuff That An Eight Year Old Thinks Is Cool, so we gotta smuggle it in in a crate full of Thoughtful Commentary On the Human Condition (which is also good, but the Coolest Thing I Ever Read to Good Writing ratio is far too skewed towards Good Writing in the later books of The Stormlight Archive for my taste).

Edited February 7 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Wait, what?  I don't remember this ever being a thing?  Was this in a WOB?  This is absolutely terrifying and shatters what I thought I understood.

WOBs yes

[Kansas Stormcursed he/him]

2 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Doesn't work that way with planets, in my opinion.  Can't explain why, it just doesn't.

But since this thread has gone over such terminology disputes before, I'll concede the point that precisely zero people agree with me on this.

Fine, Kaladin is Rosharan.

Wait, what?  I don't remember this ever being a thing?  Was this in a WOB?  This is absolutely terrifying and shatters what I thought I understood.

Okay, fair, Syl and Pattern are Rosharan (though, to be fair, Syl's point-of-view content, added to Singer point-of-view content, is probably still less pages than Kholin Romance Subplots / Love Triangles Making Me Want To Barf content.  And, to be fair, I'm not sure I consider Syl to be entirely free-willed because the Nahel bond makes me incredibly uncomfortable for reasons I don't want to get into), I was just being salty about the lack of Singer content.

If The Stormlight Archive didn't exist, I'd be writing salt about Zane/Vin/Elend content taking up pages that should have been more skaa points of view.  Mister Sanderson's biggest flaw as a writer has always been his romance subplots (outside of Raoden and Sarene, and perhaps Tess and Charlie), and his second biggest flaw as a writer has always been his inordinate fixation on characters over worldbuilding as the core of stories when worldbuilding is what he's good at and the magic systems are what made the Cosmere a success in the first place.  Guy thinks that his worlds and magic systems are enjoyable-but-not-the-point structural necessities to write stuff about characters, when the Cosmere's characters have always been the weakest part of the books and function best as enjoyable-but-not-the-point structural necessities to explore the possibilities of the imagination.

Poor mister Sanderson thinks that The Stormlight Archive became popular because of its characters.  It became popular because epic canyons with giant enemy crabs are freaking awesome.  Everybody wants to read about fossil-resembling megafauna in the fantasy equivalent of Southern Utah and Northern Arizona, but we're all just too prim and proper to admit to liking Hype Stuff That An Eight Year Old Thinks Is Cool, so we gotta smuggle it in in a crate full of Thoughtful Commentary On the Human Condition (which is also good, but the Coolest Thing I Ever Read to Good Writing ratio is far too skewed towards Good Writing in the later books of The Stormlight Archive for my taste).

Quite frankly, epic universes are everywhere. Not to minimize the impact of Stormlight and the Cosmere at large, but thenuniverse isn't what made it special. It's the stories and the characters. Without those, far fewer people would have read it or become hooked on it.

[Qianweilian He/him]

5 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Wait, what?  I don't remember this ever being a thing?  Was this in a WOB?  This is absolutely terrifying and shatters what I thought I understood.

Source:

Quote

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3400

Questioner

I really like how you have different fingernails for different peoples. Because I barely noticed, rereading for Stormlight, you've got the He--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Herdazians. 

Questioner

Herdazians.

Brandon Sanderson

That's because Herdazians are-- have Parshendi blood. Parshmen blood. They're one of the halv-- they're one of the mixed breeds. Horneaters *inaudible* too.

Questioner

Horneaters, um...they're not mixed with Parshendi are they?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are.

Questioner

That's where they get the red hair then.

Brandon Sanderson

That's where they get the red hair. And they actually can-- they call them Horneaters because they eat shell, and they actually can metabolize it which humans can't. Yeah. They've actually got, actually-- they've actually got different teeth than humans have.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5782

Mandi

Both Parshendi and Horneaters are able to see spren, ordinary humans can't. Is there a connection between these abilities, or do they come from completely different sources?

Brandon Sanderson

Horneaters are human/Parshendi hybrids. (There are several Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them.)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e930

 

Edited February 7 by Qianweilian