So, There's No Hope. (Unhinged And Unwarranted Speculation)

[Usseewa]

Just now, Frustration said:

ALL of them.

Even the unsearchable ones that you have to dig through the individual events to find.

Every. Single. One.

I've even considered digging through the audio files we haven't transcribed WoBs to yet, but I've decided it's not worth the time when I can't even hear what's being said.

U srs? That's...a lot. How long did it take?

[Frustration]

Just now, Theory said:

U srs? That's...a lot. How long did it take?

About two weeks of grinding, plus a little extra.

[Usseewa]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

About two weeks of grinding, plus a little extra.

By the Survivor. Was it worth it?

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, Theory said:

By the Survivor. Was it worth it?

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

Yes, and I recommend you do as well.

 

 

Edited January 23 by Frustration

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

To be fair it was Kaladin who(unintentionally) talked him into suicide to begin with.

I don't interpret it as entirely unintentional, to be honest (though certainly that wasn't his conscious intention).  Kaladin's earlier conversations with Szeth at that point gave me the same visceral "!!!!!!!!" that Moash's attempt to persuade Kaladin to do that in Rhythm of War, or any dialogue between Navani and The Sibling.  It got better near the end, but still... Kaladin made it onto the hate-list for a bit there.  Guy yo-yos between it and the approve-list.

Just as Moash could have been someone truly good, someone more like Kaladin, Kaladin could have been someone truly horrible, someone more like Moash.  It is to Kaladin's credit that he recognized that and moderated his approach, but it was too close for comfort, and it's another "oh snap, this won't get me the result I want, better try something else" method-shift rather than a true change of heart.

 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

And @Aliroz-The-Confused how does Szeth saying he is releasing 12124 because they don't fit together and his desire to find the Slybreaker dissenters and join them shape your feelings?

Szeth is unrecognizable, though.  He renounced his oaths.  He threw away his Oathstone.  He's an oathbreaker now.  He doesn't care about rules anymore.  He's autonomy-themed now, just like everybody else, when he was the one truly devotion-themed character among the children of Ashyn.  He's a rebel, a dissenter, a traitor to his convictions.

I hope he recovers from what Kaladin did to him and returns to his true, unreasonable, uncompromising, volition-rejecting self.

But even if he does, he's still an oathbreaker and that hurts.

EDITED TO ADD:  Here's hoping he retrieves his Oathstone and dedicates himself to the true Skybreakers (the dissenters, who will, given the patterns of mister Sanderson's writing, be revealed to be evil and wrong or at least in need of correction by the Windrunners).

 

EDIT: Yes, I know my interpretation is wrong and bad.  I know it's almost certainly contrary to mister Sanderson's intentions.  You don't have to point it out.  Just let me have a little hope, okay?  I mean, the Jasnah-Taravangian-Fen thing gives me hope.

Edited January 23 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

EDIT: Yes, I know my interpretation is wrong and bad.  I know it's almost certainly contrary to mister Sanderson's intentions.  You don't have to point it out.  Just let me have a little hope, okay?  I mean, the Jasnah-Taravangian-Fen thing gives me hope.

Wait, why does such a depressing(even by your standards) type of event bring you hope? And/or why do you hope for it?

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

The Jasnah-Taravangian-Fen confrontation in Wind and Truth is one of my favorite things in all of literature.

So, even though every scene in the original Star Wars is a favorite scene, one of the most especially favorite scenes for me is our introduction to the force as truth.  The admirals on the Death Star talk about how the senate has been dissolved and the last checks on tyranny are being swept away.  Admiral Motti insists on the primacy of the material over the spiritual, talks smack on Darth Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" (and if you've never seen Star Wars before because it's 1977, all you have to go off of at this point is Obi-wan's words about the force and science fiction / space opera just as often has false-faith-disproved or the triumph of human cleverness/progress over the mystical as it has the mystics be correct, and it's early in the movie and the plot seems to be hinging on the stolen data tapes and the Death Star so you don't know what kind of story this is going to be), claims that the Death Star is the greatest power in the universe, and after going on in such a way for a bit, loses his breathing privileges.  Darth Vader steps forward, lifts a hand, and does to Motti what every religious person ever wants to do to Richard Dawkins.  We also get one of the great one-liners, I find your lack of faith... disturbing.

I love this moment because it entirely validates Obi-wan's words and Luke's innocent, sincere, faith.  If the dark side of the force is real, then the force is real.  It's like something straight out of a medieval morality play, with Darth Vader as the devil whose abuse of the evil/impious/tyrannical reminds the audience that if demons exist then so do angels, if heck exists then so does heaven, and if the adversary exists then so does the Lord.  And it reminds the audience that those who bully others, who oppress, who base their authority on nothing but power inevitably get chumped by bigger fish and find that removing-all-rules-except-the-rule-of-the-strong isn't quite so fun once you're not the strongest.

The Kholins, paragons of reason, after making themselves powerful above all other mortals in their world, after paving fairyland and putting the fairies in little devices like Dr. Robotnik, after winning every argument and killing everyone who could oppose their authority, while striving to gain the power of Honor, after committing atrocities (genocide, slavery, putting up with Sadeas's atrocities when they have power over him and are actually in charge), after claiming thousands and thousands of pages for themselves and their friends/backstories/love-triangles/feelings, after subordinating the spiritual to the material, after subsuming The Sibling and getting off scott-free with the readers' love and approval... finally get a consequence.

Finally.

A single, shining consequence.  A "no" to their intents.  A point where the protagonists actually don't get everything they want like they always do.

A failure of reason, not because it is not a virtue, but because it is not the only virtue, and Jasnah has made it her only virtue, and has made power her only basis of authority.  Because she destroyed the systems that produced her without understanding how they worked.  Because here, and now, is a bigger fish.  Here and now, the Atheist finds herself against a god.  Right when it matters, right when it counts... Brandon Sanderson, after years of treating Jasnah's atheism with more care and respect than any atheist fiction author has ever or will ever give the specific faith that he and I share, grins and says "I got ya real good, didn't I, Aliroz?  You thought I changed and now didn't care at all about the things that matter to ya?  Silly you, I was ten steps ahead the entire time."

I love it, because it validates at least some aspects of some of my views on oaths, honor, ideals, and pre-modern ways of life.  Had she been "unreasonable" and not been so pragmatic, she could call upon Fen's obligations to her, but she and her family burned away all considerations in matters of power except for power itself.  Jasnah has to confront that she cut the branch she was standing on.  She cannot negotiate in good faith.  She cannot be trusted.  She is her father's daughter.

And Taravangian is very much like her.  And that's beautiful, because it means he's using the same flawed playbook, the same bullying methods, the same chicanery.  Which means he, too, may one day find himself up against a greater power.

Which means that he, too, may be cutting the branch on which he stands.  And the bigger they are, the harder they fall.  And that gives me a lot of hope.

Because the play doesn't end the way the devil wants, no matter how scary he is.  Because neither the dark side nor the technological terror they've constructed prevail at the end of the film.  Because virtue, effort, cleverness, and maybe a little bit of luck go a long way for the good... not all the way, but enough... and something divine makes up the difference.

Get wrecked, Taravangian (eventually).

Edited January 23 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

46 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The Jasnah-Taravangian-Fen confrontation in Wind and Truth is one of my favorite things in all of literature.

So, even though every scene in the original Star Wars is a favorite scene, one of the most especially favorite scenes for me is our introduction to the force as truth.  The admirals on the Death Star talk about how the senate has been dissolved and the last checks on tyranny are being swept away.  Admiral Motti insists on the primacy of the material over the spiritual, talks smack on Darth Vader's "sad devotion to that ancient religion" (and if you've never seen Star Wars before because it's 1977, all you have to go off of at this point is Obi-wan's words about the force and science fiction / space opera just as often has false-faith-disproved or the triumph of human cleverness/progress over the mystical as it has the mystics be correct, and it's early in the movie and the plot seems to be hinging on the stolen data tapes and the Death Star so you don't know what kind of story this is going to be), claims that the Death Star is the greatest power in the universe, and after going on in such a way for a bit, loses his breathing privileges.  Darth Vader steps forward, lifts a hand, and does to Motti what every religious person ever wants to do to Richard Dawkins.  We also get one of the great one-liners, I find your lack of faith... disturbing.

I love this moment because it entirely validates Obi-wan's words and Luke's innocent, sincere, faith.  If the dark side of the force is real, then the force is real.  It's like something straight out of a medieval morality play, with Darth Vader as the devil whose abuse of the evil/impious/tyrannical reminds the audience that if demons exist then so do angels, if heck exists then so does heaven, and if the adversary exists then so does the Lord.  And it reminds the audience that those who bully others, who oppress, who base their authority on nothing but power inevitably get chumped by bigger fish and find that removing-all-rules-except-the-rule-of-the-strong isn't quite so fun once you're not the strongest.

The Kholins, paragons of reason, after making themselves powerful above all other mortals in their world, after paving fairyland and putting the fairies in little devices like Dr. Robotnik, after winning every argument and killing everyone who could oppose their authority, while striving to gain the power of Honor, after committing atrocities (genocide, slavery, putting up with Sadeas's atrocities when they have power over him and are actually in charge), after claiming thousands and thousands of pages for themselves and their friends/backstories/love-triangles/feelings, after subordinating the spiritual to the material, after subsuming The Sibling and getting off scott-free with the readers' love and approval... finally get a consequence.

Finally.

A single, shining consequence.  A "no" to their intents.  A point where the protagonists actually don't get everything they want like they always do.

A failure of reason, not because it is not a virtue, but because it is not the only virtue, and Jasnah has made it her only virtue, and has made power her only basis of authority.  Because she destroyed the systems that produced her without understanding how they worked.  Because here, and now, is a bigger fish.  Here and now, the Atheist finds herself against a god.  Right when it matters, right when it counts... Brandon Sanderson, after years of treating Jasnah's atheism with more care and respect than any atheiest fiction author has ever or will ever give the specific faith that he and I share, grins and says "I got ya real good, didn't I, Aliroz?  You thought I changed and now didn't care at all about the things that matter to ya?  Silly you, I was ten steps ahead the entire time."

I love it, because it validates at least some aspects of some of my views on oaths, honor, ideals, and pre-modern ways of life.  Had she been "unreasonable" and not been so pragmatic, she could call upon Fen's obligations to her, but she and her family burned away all considerations in matters of power except for power itself.  Jasnah has to confront that she cut the branch she was standing on.  She cannot negotiate in good faith.  She cannot be trusted.  She is her father's daughter.

And Taravangian is very much like her.  And that's beautiful, because it means he's using the same flawed playbook, the same bullying methods, the same chicanery.  Which means he, too, may one day find himself up against a greater power.

Which means that he, too, may be cutting the branch on which he stands.  And the bigger they are, the harder they fall.  And that gives me a lot of hope.

Because the play doesn't end the way the devil wants, no matter how scary he is.  Because neither the dark side nor the technological terror they've constructed prevail at the end of the film.  Because virtue, effort, cleverness, and maybe a little bit of luck go a long way for the good... not all the way, but enough... and something divine makes up the difference.

Get wrecked, Taravangian (eventually).

So I was actually meaning the hope that Szeth gets an oathstone back, and swear himself to evil skybreakers...

 

 

But this is beautiful too, and also answers another question I had.

Also I'd agree the characters never having any setbacks or failures really undercuts stormlight as a series.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

No, no, I want him to get his Oathstone back and swear himself to good Skybreakers (I'm just worried that mister Sanderson will never write good Skybreakers because he hates them.)

[Frustration]

Just now, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

No, no, I want him to get his Oathstone back and swear himself to good Skybreakers (I'm just worried that mister Sanderson will never write good Skybreakers because he hates them.)

Well his only stated goal at the end of WaT was to find these other Skybreakers, so there's some hope for you.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

To tell the truth, I'd like the last half of The Stormlight Archive to be from Singer points of view, with only as many pages of human points-of-view as we've had Singer points-of-view so far.  And, in the final book, have no human points of view, and no human characters mentioned as specific individuals or by name, just like how The Way Of Kings contains no named Singers, nor any specific references to individual Singers.

[Myst He/Him]

3 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

No, no, I want him to get his Oathstone back and swear himself to good Skybreakers (I'm just worried that mister Sanderson will never write good Skybreakers because he hates them.) 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well his only stated goal at the end of WaT was to find these other Skybreakers, so there's some hope for you.

So, I’d like to hear your views on the Skybreakers, specifically the ones that branched off from Nale. My understanding is that you agree with Nale’s side(if not please correct me) and I’d like to know what happens there. Also, what are your thoughts on Nomad?(edit: don’t worry about Nomad till you’ve read Sunlight)

I will say, I’ve been spectating this for a bit, and I find this kinda fascinating, this isnt really something I’ve thought about. 

Edited January 24 by Mistfallen Soldier

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Mistfallen Soldier said:

So, I’d like to hear your views on the Skybreakers, specifically the ones that branched off from Nale. My understanding is that you agree with Nale’s side(if not please correct me) and I’d like to know what happens there. Also, what are your thoughts on Nomad?

I will say, I’ve been spectating this for a bit, and I find this kinda fascinating, this isnt really something I’ve thought about. 

He hasn't read the Sunlit Man yet

[Myst He/Him]

Just now, Frustration said:

He hasn't read the Sunlit Man yet

Ah, I must have missed it, my bad. Ignore the part about nomad then

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

To be fair it was Kaladin who(unintentionally) talked him into suicide to begin with.

Yeah, that was a bit of a fail on his part. 

Then again, it was technically a success in that it was first example of Szeth putting what he wants first.
It's just that Szeth has been so used and abused, that he want to die. The man need calm and peace, not a mission (and luckily he gets that). 

Plus, Kaladin did try to kill himself not even a week ago, you don't fully shrug off that sort of thing, so him not being at his A game is fine.

7 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The Kholins, paragons of reason, after making themselves powerful above all other mortals in their world, after paving fairyland and putting the fairies in little devices like Dr. Robotnik, after winning every argument and killing everyone who could oppose their authority, while striving to gain the power of Honor, after committing atrocities (genocide, slavery, putting up with Sadeas's atrocities when they have power over him and are actually in charge), after claiming thousands and thousands of pages for themselves and their friends/backstories/love-triangles/feelings, after subordinating the spiritual to the material,and getting off scott-free with the readers' love and approval... finally get a consequence.

If Kholins were paragons of reason they would

• TWoK:
  • Kill Sadeas-> they actually don't have power of him, they are co-equal noble houses
    • And Adolin does do that eventually
• Oathbringer
  • Dalinar would release Odium to wider Cosmere back in early Oathbringer, and spare himself the headache of dealing with other people's problems 
    • Let other Shards clean up their mess for once, Honor and Cultivation have been dealing with it for 8 millenia, other Shards can deal.
  • Jasnah would kill Renarin in Oathbringer
    • That was explicitly called out by narrative (and her spren) as irrational yet right choice
• WAT
  • Navani would not start research into using willing spren in fabrials
    • After all, the old ones work, why do more research just on ethics right?
  • Dalinar would not send Windrunners to try and save Herdaz, and instead they might have used them more strategically
    • Again, literally called out by narrative (through Jasnah) as irrational
  • (Arguable) Dalinar would kill Gavinor. It would win him the contest, he would be alive, and Odium would once again be someone elses problem
    • Luckily, he took the more difficult choice, and forced the people who should have been dealing with Odium all this time (other Shards) to actually deal with him.

So Kholins actually act against reason all the damn time. 

Jasnah is the one that is trying to be rational all the time (and even she has brighter moments), and it does rightfully bite her in the bum in WAT. 
But even she has her bright spots, thought they just highlight her hypocrisy at the moment.

Quote

after subsuming The Sibling

Once again, bonded spren are not subsumed, no matter how much you don't like it.

Quote

A failure of reason, not because it is not a virtue, but because it is not the only virtue, and Jasnah has made it her only virtue, and has made power her only basis of authority. 
...
I love it, because it validates at least some aspects of some of my views on oaths, honor, ideals, and pre-modern ways of life.  Had she been "unreasonable" and not been so pragmatic, she could call upon Fen's obligations to her, but she and her family burned away all considerations in matters of power except for power itself.  

You may be surprised to hear this, but I like that scene for this exact reason as well.

And its not even that if she wasn't so 'pragmatic', she would be able to call upon Fen's obligation to her. It seemed to me that if Jasnah was more 'unreasonable' as you say, and didn't have e.g. assassination plans for other leaders, Fen would side with her there, and Jasnah wouldn't even have to ask.

But Jasnah didn't trust anyone other than herself, and her reason (with some minor exceptions), and it caught up with her.

Quote

And Taravangian is very much like her.  And that's beautiful, because it means he's using the same flawed playbook, the same bullying methods, the same chicanery.  Which means he, too, may one day find himself up against a greater power.

Yep. 

Though I would prefer if his comeuppance comes not from greater power, but from number of lesser powers. 
I don't really like the 'strength justifies the means' approach, but hey so long as the consequences come.

Quote

A point where the protagonists actually don't get everything they want like they always do.

I think it is a bit obscured by the narrative focusing a lot on the individual people, but the protagonist side has been losing since Book 2.

• WoR: They don't stop the Everstorm from coming (explicit goal for most of the book)
• Oathbringer: They do stop Dalinar from turning, but they lose Jah Kaved (military on par with Alethkar and Khabranth).
• RoW:  They don't get Ishar on their side, they only take back what they lost in the same back, so no progress there. And Taravangian Ascends, completely ruining the battle of champions plan (though they don't know it yet).
• WAT: They lose. Honor is absorbed by Retribution, Stormfather is killed, Urithiru is isolated, most of Roshar is under Odium's side control and Coalition is reduced to..central Azir?

 

And honestly, I am glad that Odium won in WAT. Not for his sake, but because Singers do deserve that. They deserve to have more of the land for themselves, just like humans in early Roshar history did deserve more space as well. 

And maybe they will finally learn to work together for good of all, as like Navani and Raboniel showed, together they can achieve more than they can separate.

Edited January 24 by therunner

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

completely ruining the battle of champions plan (though they don't know it yet).

The battle of champions plan was a plan to just start a cold phase in the endless war between Singers and Humans of Roshar though. It was a dumb plan. Tanavast was dumb. Hoid is dumb. Everyone who believed in the contest of champions plan was a dupe; I feel most bad for Jasnah in this since it hurts her reputation to be made into a dupe.

Suppose the day of the contest came and Rayse as Odium put up a normal chicken for a champion which Dalinar strangled and cooked for dinner, winning the contest. Sure. This theoretically traps Rayse on Roshar for a thousand years. He won't start anything, but eventually someone's pig or chull is going to walk over the border and cause an incident.

I really wish exploring the details of how a peace under the terms of the contest is never going to last was itself part of the contest instead of concluding that in the spirit world. Having the contest itself be defeated by Taravangian working through the logic of it like a lawyer or a judge might have been an interesting thing. Honestly, I wish the Contest was more like a debate than "I spent 20 years raising your grandson to hate you as of chapter 105 of this book, so.... gg?"

But I guess that would resolve too much and Mr Sanderson wants to make this go on for 5 more implausibly long books.

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

Hoid is dumb.

The only thing Hoid wanted was to keep Odium trapped. He didn't care about Roshar.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

The battle of champions plan was a plan to just start a cold phase in the endless war between Singers and Humans of Roshar though. It was a dumb plan. Tanavast was dumb. Hoid is dumb. Everyone who believed in the contest of champions plan was a dupe; I feel most bad for Jasnah in this since it hurts her reputation to be made into a dupe.

Suppose the day of the contest came and Rayse as Odium put up a normal chicken for a champion which Dalinar strangled and cooked for dinner, winning the contest. Sure. This theoretically traps Rayse on Roshar for a thousand years. He won't start anything, but eventually someone's pig or chull is going to walk over the border and cause an incident.

I really wish exploring the details of how a peace under the terms of the contest is never going to last was itself part of the contest instead of concluding that in the spirit world. Having the contest itself be defeated by Taravangian working through the logic of it like a lawyer or a judge might have been an interesting thing. Honestly, I wish the Contest was more like a debate than "I spent 20 years raising your grandson to hate you as of chapter 105 of this book, so.... gg?"

But I guess that would resolve too much and Mr Sanderson wants to make this go on for 5 more implausibly long books.

It likely would have worked quite well under Rayse as he was just as sick of the war as the Rosharans were. He wanted to start conquering other places.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

The battle of champions plan was a plan to just start a cold phase in the endless war between Singers and Humans of Roshar though. It was a dumb plan. Tanavast was dumb. Hoid is dumb. Everyone who believed in the contest of champions plan was a dupe; I feel most bad for Jasnah in this since it hurts her reputation to be made into a dupe.

Not under Rayse. Rayse wanted this longer break to reconsolidate his power and to manipulate future for better outcome. 

Plus cold phase of war is still a massive upgrade to the status quo.

And frankly it wasn't that dumb, if you work with the constraints of

• Not wanting to destroy Roshar with Surges
• Want to keep Odium bound

Tanavast formulated this plan when he was dying, and knew future generations would fight a war against a Shard.
You have no hope of doing that, unless something like contest is in effect, or you have Shard on your side as well.

Quote

Suppose the day of the contest came and Rayse as Odium put up a normal chicken for a champion which Dalinar strangled and cooked for dinner, winning the contest.

Chicken wouldn't count as willing champion, so that won't fly.

Quote

Sure. This theoretically traps Rayse on Roshar for a thousand years. He won't start anything, but eventually someone's pig or chull is going to walk over the border and cause an incident.

The contract is to cease hostilities and maintain peace from Rayse. It would allow him to defend his territory, but only to the extent of maintaing peace.

So it still limits possible extent of hostilities for the next millennium (unless some future representative of Honor breaks the agreement somehow).

Quote

I really wish exploring the details of how a peace under the terms of the contest is never going to last was itself part of the contest instead of concluding that in the spirit world.

The contract has in-built requirement of maintaining peace, and not working against Coalition allies or their kingdoms.
That alone is pretty robust guarantee of limited hostilities.

It would allow Rayse to act against any unaffiliated countries, but those would have to become unaffiliated of their own volition with no meddling from Rayse at all.

But if e.g. Coalition country attacked Odium country, the contract as written isn't broken, as Dalinar never promised any end of hostilities from his side. But it would allow Odium to defend his territory, as that could be construed as maintaining the peace as set by the contract.

Final wording of the contract below

Spoiler

Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.”

“Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.”

“And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.”

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

7 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

The only thing Hoid wanted was to keep Odium trapped. He didn't care about Roshar.

I'd argue that Hoid is severely emotionally compromised when it comes to the children of Ashyn, consistently prioritizing them over just about everything that isn't his beef with Rayse or his beef with Bavadin.

I mean, he was involved in them coming to Roshar, and I'd bet he was involved with the ones that are now on Scadrial.

UNRELATED:  WOOT WOOT MY 200TH POST!

[Aeshdan he/him]

@Aliroz-The-Confused, I would like to bring up another incident from the books which I think really fits with what you are saying here (I'm actually suprised you haven't brought it up yet), and that is Dalinar wrestling with the Stormfather in Rhythm Of War, overriding him and forcing the storm to do things that it wasn't intended to do. That made me very uncomfortable when I read it, and I remember thinking "Okay, Sanderson probably isn't going to do this, but this sequence really feels to me like foreshadowing that Dalinar is going to push the Stormfather too hard and break the Highstorms themselves".

[Nitpicking]

On 1/24/2026 at 5:16 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I mean, he was involved in them coming to Roshar, and I'd bet he was involved with the ones that are now on Scadrial.

Ruin and Preservation made the humans of Scadrial. They aren't from Ashyn.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

As of The Lost Metal, the children of Ashyn have gotten to Scadrial.

Edited February 1 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Qianweilian He/him]

20 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

As of The Lost Metal, the children of Ashyn have gotten to Scadrial.

Only a few refugees; it’s much different then when the entire population of Ashyn arrived on Roshar.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Spoiler

If they convinced Harmony to prefer them (as they did to Cultivation and Honor), violated agreements and committed taboos and atrocities, lobotomized, enslaved, and committed genocide/species-icide against the Scadrians, drove Kandra to near-extinction, and then pouted and were sad about their unhappy childhoods and asked forgiveness multiple books later and got it, and soaked up thousands and thousands of pages with their little love triangles and inner anguish and then got to be Officially Good People for feeling some measure of guilt about unrelated atrocities they did to each other, and then lectured the Scadrians about how they have just as much right to Scadrial as anyone and got to be metaphysically proven right, it would be entirely morally and tonally consistent with what they have done.  If anything, it would be LESS bad then what they have done, since a lot of what they did isn't included in this paragraph.

The ONLY difference in my opinion is that we've had multiple books to connect to the Scadrians, and we have not had such for the Singers.

"I'm sorry about killing a quarter of the non-enslaved remnants of your people within a decade of first contact, and the mass lobotomization and millennia of slavery we did to the rest of the species, and about taking every place in the world and invading the very last place where you'd all hidden from us, and all the times we negotiated in bad faith, and the various other atrocities and refusals to accept surrenders, but my people needed places to live.  I'm sorry, we cool now?  Also, you're attractive, we should date.  I need to go have complicated feelings about my father now.  It'll be all heartwarming when we are friends, it'll represent reconciliation and making everything right even if it doesn't actually change anything." "Aww heck yeah, pagetime!  And a cute cuddle-buddy!  Woot woot!  Let's be adorable weirdos together!  I never really fit in with my kin anyway, they bullied me, but now I have the fangirls and fanboys!" is my interpretation of the Renarin-Rlain dynamic (still a better love story than Twilight).  To be fair, it's also pretty close to my interpretation of the Elend-Vin dynamic, so maybe I just don't like heir-to-slaveowning-nobility/heir-to-slavery-and-infinite-bummers "oh wow, I didn't realize that beings like you were capable of intelligent thought!" romances.

No one wins arguments against a Windrunner.  You either get convinced, or you get proven wrong.

The children of Ashyn are a narrative black hole that bends everything to orbit them.  What they want, they eventually get.  A story containing them inevitably bends to be about them.  To oppose them is to become the antagonists and thus inevitably lose.  To criticize them is to be proven wrong, and be that one character in the story who exists to be wrong and to be proven wrong (like Sekeir).  To befriend them is to either become an extension of them, to nobly sacrifice yourself for them, or to absolve them, unless you betray them in which case you're unforgivable.  To dislike them is to be at best tragically wrong or not thinking clearly or unfairly emotionally compromised by things that happened long ago and don't matter, and it is usually to learn your lesson about forgiveness and not being judgmental (even if your entire DEAL is being a fairy made of Righteous Judgement).

+++ Quoted from The Way Of Kings, page 269, chapter 15
Dalinar left the fallen chasmfiend behind.  He understood each step in the process of what had happened during those six years.  He'd even hastened some of them.  Only now did he worry.  They were making headway in cutting down the Parshendi numbers, but the original goal of vengeance for Gavilar's murder had been forgotten.  The Alethi lounged, they played, and they idled.

Even though they'd killed plenty of Parshendi--as many as a quarter of their originally estimated forces were dead--this was just taking so long.  The siege had lasted six years and could easily last another six.  That troubled him.  Obviously the Parshendi had expected to be besieged here.  They'd prepared supply dumps and had been ready to move their entire population to the Shattered Plains, where they could use these Heralds-forsaken chasms and plateaus like hundreds of moats and fortifications.

The estimate that "their numbers were three-quarters their prior strength" from page 269 of The Way Of Kings seems, in context, to refer to the listeners as a population.

For reference, the portion of Poland's population lost to the Second World War in 1939-1945, if one includes military deaths, civilian deaths from actions classified as crimes against humanity, and civilian deaths from diseases and famine directly related to the war, is approximately seventeen percent.

Spoilered for unnecessary rambling and incoherency, as well as double standards and unfairness.

I don't like what they do to neat fictional settings, and any number upwards of zero of them showing up in a cool fictional world is a sign that everything's about to become way less interesting and a lot worse for whoever's already there.  So it only being a few of them isn't any real help unless I can be confident that they're not going to become the main characters of Scadrial.

I just... don't relate to them like I used to (especially with each book revealing more and more horrible secrets about them).  I relate more to characters like Sekeir and pre-getting-"fixed"-by-Kaladin Szeth, because I, too, exist as the one who is wrong and needs to learn better.  I'm basically the Sekeir of this forum.

Edited March 5 by Aliroz-The-Confused