So, There's No Hope. (Unhinged And Unwarranted Speculation)

[therunner he/him]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Because he placed greater moral weight on obedience to the Oathstone than anything else.

Now clearly he was wrong in this, but it was moral consistency.

He was consistent in  the following of the Oathstone yes.  
But it didn't have greater moral weight, Szeth was clear that following Oathstones does not absolve him of his crimes, in fact that was the punishment.

I would say that  his morality overall was not consistent, as he was murdering people who were innocent, an act that was morally wrong. 

If your morality demands you:

1. Do some act (murder innocents because of Oathstone)
2. That act itself is deemed immoral (murdering innocents is bad)
3. Yet not doing that act is also immoral (disobeying Oathstone is bad)

then I would say your morality is not consistent.

Arguably this is the first case of SA criticizing what it later did with Skybreakers, obedience to a code that can be fallible, with no regards for if the rules actually make sense.

14 hours ago, listerfeend said:

It's almost like you don't understand the indoctrination and mental status of Szeth... 

I do.

It's just that I don't see how it has any bearing on moral consistency of the person in question.


EDIT: @Aliroz-The-Confused
 

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When a benevolent god tells you to stop what you are doing because it is an abomination, you should stop what you are doing.

Sibling is not a god, nor are they considered as such by most Rosharans, certainly not by any Vorins.

And notably, none of what Rosharans would consider gods (Honor, Cultivation, Odium) have issues with fabrials.

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Also, you seem to think that this is about reasoning/thinking ability.  I reject that framework, because I consider it to be an inherently evil framework to divide beings into "greater" and "lesser" on that basis.

If consideration and freedom are only owed to those "greater" beings who can run Reason.exe, then I am inherently lesser because my instance of that program is broken/corrupted.  I do not think like people think.

I said nothing of the sort. 

I just said that lesser spren are funcionally (and ecologically) equivalent to animals, and are treated as such by everyone there. Sibling is basically animal rights activist.

IF you don't have issues with using animals for labor or food, I don't think it is reasonable to criticize use of spren either. 
 

Edited February 18 by therunner

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

On 2/17/2026 at 9:45 PM, Immortal Platypus said:

I'm afraid that we simply have different views on this, and I don't think there's any evidence I could provide to change your mind. If the Sibling said that they weren't subsumed, you could say it's because of basically Stockholm Syndrome, and that's a valid position. At the end of the day, we have different views, and I don't think that yours can truly be proven wrong. 

I guess my basic question is this: What would it take to get you to change your mind about spren being subsumed by humans in the Nahel bond?

You can also replace the last part of that question with any other position you hold. I think it's important to consider what it would take to move you from your position, it's something I make certain that I do. For example, if we see that many of Dalinar's good deeds were motivated by bad intents, I think that could make me change my mind on his morality. If he saved Bridge 4 simply to spite Sadeas instead of because he valued their lives and they helped him, that would make me start to question him. It doesn't need to be an exact "this is all the evidence I'd need", just a general concept.

I already said what it would take for me to consider Navani as sincerely trying to be better, and what it would take for her to actually be doing better.

On 2/13/2026 at 1:36 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Sincerity, to me, would be stopping all fabrial research and banning it.  An actual attempt to do better would be outright outlawing the creation of fabrials, at bare minimum.  Following through on this attempt by destroying as many as possible of the fabrials that exist so the spren can be free is what it would take for me to consider Navani as having had a change of heart.  Otherwise, she stays in her place as the fictional character I hate fifth-most.

What I see is Navani trying to soothe the concerns of her own conscience, of The Sibling, and of the reader, while having no change of heart, only slight changes of method specifically to avoid confronting things that might lead to a change of heart.

I see the apparent "enjoyment" of the fabrial spren as eerily similar to the apparent "volition" of Enlightened spren and the apparent "contentment" of the abducted in Wayfarer, and it reminds me of Ulim's interactions with the Listeners (manufacturing consent for your own purposes).

For me to consider The Sibling to not be subsumed, either 1) at least some of what I just described would have to happen (or Navani would have to make some difficult and, indeed, rather costly and genuinely-detrimental-to-productivity steps in that direction, and then follow those by continually making progress in that direction), or The Sibling would need to break the bond with Navani and bond with someone else, because I genuinely think that bond is abusive, and I genuinely think that the situation with the "lesser" spren is one of questionable consent. 

I guess there's a fourth possibility:  A POV from The Sibling would face a steep and uphill battle to convince me that The Sibling isn't being mind-controlled or manipulated or subsumed, but it could, theoretically, be done.  Navani's POVs read, to me, like an abuser's manipulations and like an disingenuous and insincere apologia for exploiting the spren.

Or I'd need a POV from a "Lesser" spren to see it from that point-of-view.  Honestly, a couple pages of that, establishing that it's not just trained "happiness" behaviors that the humans are misinterpreting (it's a genuine trouble in real-life animal observation and experimentation--animals that are aware that they are being watched behave differently, and that makes it really hard to know what influence or impact that has.  Some animal behaviors were essentially unknown until the advent of certain miniaturizations in camera technology.  Also, people act differently when observed vs when not-observed.) would make me go "oh, I guess mister Sanderson didn't intend this to be nightmarish".

I'd like to be certain that the spren can and DO leave, and sometimes never come back, that they're not being kept from being their natural, wild, and free selves, that this new self-awareness isn't somehow a loss of innocence or somehow painful or traumatic.  I want them to be like the songbirds coming to a bird-feeder and then flying off (my grandmother always said that their song and their beauty was well worth the cost of the seeds and the feeder), or like bees doing their work and coming back to their hive-based-around-a-man-made-box (I think, so long as you don't take too much honey and are mindful to check for mold, diseases, and parasites, that there's not necessarily a moral problem with beekeeping).

The "lesser" spren are cute little beans, and I want them to be okay.

On 2/17/2026 at 9:45 PM, Immortal Platypus said:

If there's nothing that could change your mind, I think that's a dangerous place to be in, for anyone. 

You're right, it is dangerous, and I try to keep an open mind about almost everything.  The other side of this coin is that I think that being able to change your mind about everything is a dangerous place to be in, for anyone.  Almost everything can and should be re-evaluated.  A very small handful of things (supported by experience and application to reality) need to be regarded as absolute and certain (just like how every logic system has to have some axioms to start with, like, in mathematics, "things that are equal to the same thing are equal to each other") because you have to start somewhere.

Things I have views on which nothing will persuade me to give up my basic position on (spoilered for being long and veering off-topic)

Spoiler

I will not be persuaded that human trafficking is good.  I will not be persuaded that LGBTQ+ deserve less rights than cis/het people*, that religious organizations** deserve to pay taxes, that fascism or communism are good***, or that children deserve to be abused instead of loved****.

*That I cannot quickly and coherently state a foolproof means for identifying what someone else's gender identity or sexuality or lack thereof of either is that is immune to secrets, lies, or discriminating against people who aren't doing anything other than being their sincere and authentic selves, does not mean that I am unclear about the inherent rights involved, it means I'm not smart enough to come up with the perfect words.  Specific practices and laws are outside the scope of this thread, the point is that the principle is something I see as inherent and non-negotiable.  I think there are a lot of people who would agree with me on this.  I understand that there are many people, both in the past and in the present, who disagree with me on this, and I, respectfully, do not wish to argue about this online or IRL.

*I don't mean scams or parody religions, I mean genuine faiths.  That I cannot coherently and quickly state a foolproof means for evaluating such things hat is immune to secrets, lies, or discriminating against people who aren't doing anything other than practicing their sincere and authentic faith, does not mean that I am unclear about the inherent rights involved, it means I'm not smart enough to come up with the perfect words.  Specific implementations are outside the scope of this thread, the point is that the principle is something that I see as inherent and non-negotiable.  I think there are a lot of people who would agree with me on this.  I understand that there are many people, both in the past and in the present, who disagree with me on this, and I, respectfully, do not wish to argue about this online or IRL.

***That there are good people who have been radicalized or raised with terrible ideologies doesn't make those people bad (if they are bad it is from doing bad things, they will be judged in the end on their actions, not on category) or those ideologies good.  It is the ideology and the bad actions done for such which I regard as indefensible.  One can despise COVID without despising the people who have it, and one can regard the mislead and misinformed as having a lesser degree of culpability than those who profit from misinforming, misleading, and exploiting them (while still acknowledging free will, culpability, and responsibility).  

****I can't say perfectly how to raise or care for a child; that doesn't mean that kids don't deserve the best efforts.

 

  

On 2/17/2026 at 11:02 PM, therunner said:

EDIT: @Aliroz-The-Confused
 

Sibling is not a god, nor are they considered as such by most Rosharans, certainly not by any Vorins.

And notably, none of what Rosharans would consider gods (Honor, Cultivation, Odium) have issues with fabrials.

I said nothing of the sort. 

I just said that lesser spren are funcionally (and ecologically) equivalent to animals, and are treated as such by everyone there. Sibling is basically animal rights activist.

IF you don't have issues with using animals for labor or food, I don't think it is reasonable to criticize use of spren either. 
 

I think the Horneaters might consider The Sibling a god, since (at least some of them) consider spren to be gods (as far as I know).

Honor's dead, Cultivation's uncommunicative and inscrutable for the most part, and Odium's a butthole.  Also, I'm not certain, but I thought I remembered Tanavast shuddering or at least having a "I'm not comfortable with this, guys" reaction to the first Fabrial, though I'll admit he darn well could have forbade them and chose not to.

I have issues with certain ways of using animals for labor, and with certain ways of using animals for food.  Other ways I don't necessarily have problems with (at least in the context of real life).  I have issues with fabrials, and a lot of that is because I see them as enslavement, but at least part of that is because they represent the encroaching modernity, the draining away of wonder and joy, the subordination of the spiritual to the material, the progress that my preservation-aligned soul mourns.

Also, I never interpreted spren as being equivalent to animals, I always saw them more as fairies, ghosts, animist spirits.

And finally, I never said I was reasonable.  I said the exact opposite of that, repeatedly.

 

EDIT:  Woot woot 300th post.

Edited February 20 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

He was consistent in  the following of the Oathstone yes.  
But it didn't have greater moral weight, Szeth was clear that following Oathstones does not absolve him of his crimes, in fact that was the punishment.

I would say that  his morality overall was not consistent, as he was murdering people who were innocent, an act that was morally wrong. 

If your morality demands you:

1. Do some act (murder innocents because of Oathstone)
2. That act itself is deemed immoral (murdering innocents is bad)
3. Yet not doing that act is also immoral (disobeying Oathstone is bad)

then I would say your morality is not consistent.

This looks like  an ethics discussion with some clear thesis points. I hope you do not mind me stepping back in:

It seems to me what is questionable here is how a moral judge would assess Szeth's actions, and there is the option to imagine if that judge was himself Szeth or someone with access to Szeth's memories and using the culture of Shin as Szeth was raised in to be the one to judge him. Using that as a guide, this post will address each case one at a time, first a moral judgement based on my understanding of moral philosophy (I got an A in a 200s level Ethics class, that basically makes me an expert on this! /joke), Szeth's own feelings as I see them from the text, and what could be imagined as a sort of Shin jurist.

First, what would the two most popular moral theories of the modern world have said about Szeth. I am just going to run a quick test on Kant's Deontology and Bentham's Utilitarianism. Okay, Szeth did a long wrong there. The oathstone is kinda insane and dumb under both of the big Enlightenment moralities. Having killed people because of the oathstone just fails to compute in those systems, obviously what he did was wrong by those measure. Deontology has this blindness to cultural circumstances, so it is easier to just notice how murder uses people as a mere means to achieve an end and call it a contradiction of the good. I think Kant was okay with people killing murderers though, so if anyone Szeth killed was already a murderer he can reduce his guilt by that many ghosts. I do not think Roshar was a happier place for the Assassinations in White so Bentham is also not going to approve; Unless some of those people he killed were really sad and going to stay sad and miserable for the rest of their lives, then he could feel less bad about those ones.

But what about the standards of Shin culture? Well, that is where it gets weird. Shin culture hates doing violence too! Szeth hates himself for killing people to the point where most of what happens in his head before his therapy road trip of miracles is the screams of his victims. Sorry, I thought there would be more here, but... no. Shin culture seems to love to doom people to lives of moral evil while making a big deal of it. It is a really dumb society. Shallan is right, they do resemble children. 

[Immortal Platypus]

12 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I already said what it would take for me to consider Navani as sincerely trying to be better, and what it would take for her to actually be doing better.

yeah, I did see that. that's not entirely what I'm interested, but I am glad that you have a burden of proof to be met in such a situation. 

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 For me to consider The Sibling to not be subsumed, either 1) at least some of what I just described would have to happen (or Navani would have to make some difficult and, indeed, rather costly and genuinely-detrimental-to-productivity steps in that direction, and then follow those by continually making progress in that direction), or The Sibling would need to break the bond with Navani and bond with someone else, because I genuinely think that bond is abusive, and I genuinely think that the situation with the "lesser" spren is one of questionable consent. 

I want to clarify, because it seems to me that you're being at least a little inconsistent (but that might just be my limited understanding of your ideas). Do you think that the spren is subsumed in all Nahel bonds, or specifically the ones we see from the protagonists in SA? I recall you mentioning it for the Sibling and Syl, and I extrapolated that to all bonds, but I don't know if you actually said that. 

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 I guess there's a fourth possibility:  A POV from The Sibling would face a steep and uphill battle to convince me that The Sibling isn't being mind-controlled or manipulated or subsumed, but it could, theoretically, be done.  Navani's POVs read, to me, like an abuser's manipulations and like an disingenuous and insincere apologia for exploiting the spren.

I'd be interested to hear if you have a specific idea of what a Sibling POV would have to do to convince you they weren't subsumed, but it's not something that will bother me if I don't see it, so if you don't want to share, you don't have to.

Quote

 Or I'd need a POV from a "Lesser" spren to see it from that point-of-view.  Honestly, a couple pages of that, establishing that it's not just trained "happiness" behaviors that the humans are misinterpreting (it's a genuine trouble in real-life animal observation and experimentation--animals that are aware that they are being watched behave differently, and that makes it really hard to know what influence or impact that has.  Some animal behaviors were essentially unknown until the advent of certain miniaturizations in camera technology.  Also, people act differently when observed vs when not-observed.) would make me go "oh, I guess mister Sanderson didn't intend this to be nightmarish".

I would also like that POV, but I don't know how likely it is, considering that they don't seem to have much intelligence. Would you accept it if it was a deleted scene similar to the "I am a stick" interlude, or does it need to be part of the published book?

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 I'd like to be certain that the spren can and DO leave, and sometimes never come back, that they're not being kept from being their natural, wild, and free selves, that this new self-awareness isn't somehow a loss of innocence or somehow painful or traumatic.  I want them to be like the songbirds coming to a bird-feeder and then flying off (my grandmother always said that their song and their beauty was well worth the cost of the seeds and the feeder), or like bees doing their work and coming back to their hive-based-around-a-man-made-box (I think, so long as you don't take too much honey and are mindful to check for mold, diseases, and parasites, that there's not necessarily a moral problem with beekeeping).

that sounds great to me, and is what I think Navani is trying to work towards (but I can't say for sure, that was just my interpretation). 

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 The "lesser" spren are cute little beans, and I want them to be okay.

agreed, we just have different definitions of what is "ok", hence our disagreement. 

Quote

 You're right, it is dangerous, and I try to keep an open mind about almost everything.  The other side of this coin is that I think that being able to change your mind about everything is a dangerous place to be in, for anyone.  Almost everything can and should be re-evaluated.  A very small handful of things (supported by experience and application to reality) need to be regarded as absolute and certain (just like how every logic system has to have some axioms to start with, like, in mathematics, "things that are equal to the same thing are equal to each other") because you have to start somewhere.

I think that very few things need to be regarded as absolute and certain, if any. I would say that everything should be able to be re-evaluated, but that many things require an absurdly high burden of proof to change (so high that it would be nigh-impossible to change the opinion, but I would think that it is technically possible, just not plausible). Axioms are also ok, IMO, as long as you recognize that they are axioms, and might not be accepted by others. 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

11 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

First, what would the two most popular moral theories of the modern world have said about Szeth. I am just going to run a quick test on Kant's Deontology and Bentham's Utilitarianism. Okay, Szeth did a long wrong there. The oathstone is kinda insane and dumb under both of the big Enlightenment moralities. Having killed people because of the oathstone just fails to compute in those systems, obviously what he did was wrong by those measure. Deontology has this blindness to cultural circumstances, so it is easier to just notice how murder uses people as a mere means to achieve an end and call it a contradiction of the good. I think Kant was okay with people killing murderers though, so if anyone Szeth killed was already a murderer he can reduce his guilt by that many ghosts. I do not think Roshar was a happier place for the Assassinations in White so Bentham is also not going to approve; Unless some of those people he killed were really sad and going to stay sad and miserable for the rest of their lives, then he could feel less bad about those ones.

Modernity is lamesauce, though, we don't want Enlightenment nonsense up in our fiction, we read fiction to get away from that.

11 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

But what about the standards of Shin culture? Well, that is where it gets weird. Shin culture hates doing violence too! Szeth hates himself for killing people to the point where most of what happens in his head before his therapy road trip of miracles is the screams of his victims. Sorry, I thought there would be more here, but... no. Shin culture seems to love to doom people to lives of moral evil while making a big deal of it. It is a really dumb society. Shallan is right, they do resemble children. 

In THIS THREAD we respect the Shin, consarn it!

You smack-talk the Shin, I kick-a your shins!

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Modernity is lamesauce, though, we don't want Enlightenment nonsense up in our fiction, we read fiction to get away from that.

I find it strange and a bit offputting to speak in the plural like this. I would also say this forum is not itself fiction.

But since I have replied to you, I might as well give a piece on the who "sprensploitation" thing:

It seems like the historic analogy of progress here would be to start paying lesser spren wages in either light or spheres to allow them to choose their rewards for working. It is basically slavery otherwise. Funnily, I have heard being born into the world of animals described as a kind of negative afterlife that came with the punishment of being effectively made a slave to humans for a lifetime. By moving from a system of treating some spren as animals/slaves to treating them as workers there is a seeming improvement in things.

Also, please do not jokingly threaten me. I do not care for the precedent  it sets.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

I find it strange and a bit offputting to speak in the plural like this. I would also say this forum is not itself fiction.

I wasn't trying to refer to myself as plural, I was including myself in the generality of readers.  I think for most people, the appeal of fiction is that it isn't real, and the appeal of fantasy is the escape from modernity.

While this forum may not be fiction, it is about these fantasy novels, and I'm not sure that enlightenment thought is an appropriate framework to approach them.

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

But since I have replied to you, I might as well give a piece on the who "sprensploitation" thing:

It seems like the historic analogy of progress here would be to start paying lesser spren wages in either light or spheres to allow them to choose their rewards for working. It is basically slavery otherwise. Funnily, I have heard being born into the world of animals described as a kind of negative afterlife that came with the punishment of being effectively made a slave to humans for a lifetime. By moving from a system of treating some spren as animals/slaves to treating them as workers there is a seeming improvement in things.

This makes sense.

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

Also, please do not jokingly threaten me. I do not care for the precedent  it sets.

Understood, I won't do it again.

[therunner he/him]

22 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

 I think the Horneaters might consider The Sibling a god, since (at least some of them) consider spren to be gods (as far as I know).

Horneaters also consider Hoid a god, and he is okay with fabrials, And so are most other spren. 
So at best, one god (out of many) has issues with fabrials.

And Horneaters we do see don't have issues with fabrials themselves.

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Honor's dead, Cultivation's uncommunicative and inscrutable for the most part, and Odium's a butthole.  Also, I'm not certain, but I thought I remembered Tanavast shuddering or at least having a "I'm not comfortable with this, guys" reaction to the first Fabrial, though I'll admit he darn well could have forbade them and chose not to.

Tanavast had issues due to power it could grant If I recall correctly. 
Cultivation had space to raise this issue (she did visit the Tower), or employ her agents to stop it, and never did.

All of these are certainly more 'godly' than Sibling is, and never raise the issue.

The above doesn't mean Sibling isn't possibly right ( I do think they have some points, but goes a bit too far ), but they shouldn't be listened to because they are a 'god', because basing their authority on that immediately refutes the stances.

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I have issues with certain ways of using animals for labor, and with certain ways of using animals for food.  Other ways I don't necessarily have problems with (at least in the context of real life).  

I guess we are relatively close in these opinions then.

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Also, I never interpreted spren as being equivalent to animals, I always saw them more as fairies, ghosts, animist spirits.

I didn't up until Oathbringer, but there we saw Shadesmar where spren play the same ecological role as animal do in PR, and other Radiant spren use them for labor in exactly the same fashion humans/Singers use animals in PR.

Since then I considered them to be equivalent to animals, just from a different tree of life.

17 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

This looks like  an ethics discussion with some clear thesis points. I hope you do not mind me stepping back in:

...

But what about the standards of Shin culture? Well, that is where it gets weird. Shin culture hates doing violence too! Szeth hates himself for killing people to the point where most of what happens in his head before his therapy road trip of miracles is the screams of his victims. Sorry, I thought there would be more here, but... no. Shin culture seems to love to doom people to lives of moral evil while making a big deal of it. It is a really dumb society. Shallan is right, they do resemble children. 

I do not mind, in fact I welcome it, as I am not that well versed in ethics and morality. 

I do agree that Shin culture is quite contradictory, though it started with good intentions (likely their pacifism and taboos forming from those who refused to participate in First Desolation).

But I would also say that Szeth circumstances are somewhat unique, due to his neurodivergence. From his flashbacks, he was unusually rigid even by Shin standards, and most other Shin would likely say 'Crem the Oathstone' and simply ran away, or at the latest would refuse to follow orders to murder innocents. So not all cam be blamed on Shin society in general.

Edited February 19 by therunner

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I do agree that Shin culture is quite contradictory, though it started with good intentions (likely their pacifism and taboos forming from those who refused to participate in First Desolation).

Their pacifism is done really poorly though. They rely on having a lower caste who does all the things they call violent. I kind of hoped Kaladin would encounter this idea and then realize "Oh, watchers on the rim just makes monsters or some and victims of others even if our noble lies are enforced by magic that makes them real". But there is yet to be a Cosmere planet that does not seem to bend towards having a class of elites who manage access to both magic and violence.

[Nitpicking]

16 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

It seems like the historic analogy of progress here would be to start paying lesser spren wages in either light or spheres to allow them to choose their rewards for working. It is basically slavery otherwise.

That sounds like the way the spirits of Komashi are treated, until their enslavement (for real) by the Father Machine.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Cultivation had space to raise this issue (she did visit the Tower), or employ her agents to stop it, and never did.

Perhaps consider that the Tower is the Sibling's physical form. And, as Navani eventually realizes, it is also a fabrial. So the Sibling is a pre-Recreance fabrial, a spren who volunteered to become a tool. Just a really cool, complicated, powerful tool.

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 2/17/2026 at 5:14 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I don't like frameworks where personhood is a requirement for moral consideration (I believe that the rest of creation deserves moral consideration, even if people deserve more consideration than things).  I do not like frameworks where the ones who decide who or what deserves moral consideration do so on the basis of logos (I do not believe that logos is the best framework for confronting moral issues, or, at least, I do not believe that logos without other things (some of which, like pathos and ethos, are orthogonal to reason and logic) is more appropriate for confronting moral issues than an alloy of logos, pathos, and ethos, with other things).

I don't like drawing the line between "people, and thus deserving moral consideration" and "not-people, and thus not" because I think that when such a line is drawn, I may end on the not-a-person side of it.  I always related more to alien, robot, or fairy/fae/sprite characters than to human characters whenever both were in the same story, and I always connected more to the simpler side characters than to the main characters in just about everything, especially when said side characters serve the role of "understandable but incorrect, to be proven wrong and either 1) learn a lesson or 2) persist in error and provide a warning to the audience about being stubbornly wrong".

Basically, I'm risk-averse to the kind of frameworks that I feel have been (ab)used (by intellectually dishonest people, against the actual intent) to justify eugenics, "cures" for neurodivergence, and hierarchical categorization of humans.  For me, if the balance inclines, it inclines towards extending the "deserves moral consideration" category too much rather than not enough.

My views on the requirement to be the equivalent of people are heavily weighted by my fear that I am not equivalent to people. 

On 2/17/2026 at 3:47 PM, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Also, you seem to think that this is about reasoning/thinking ability.  I reject that framework, because I consider it to be an inherently evil framework to divide beings into "greater" and "lesser" on that basis.

If consideration and freedom are only owed to those "greater" beings who can run Reason.exe, then I am inherently lesser because my instance of that program is broken/corrupted.  I do not think like people think.

I don't disagree with you that "an alloy of logos, pathos, and ethos, with other things" is better than pure logos for making value judgements, or that "the rest of creation deserves moral consideration, even if people deserve more consideration than things". I just disagree with your assessment of the relative balance of moral consideration between souled and soul-less beings.

You may not "think like people think", but you do think. You can read and write, can consider abstract concepts and make value judgements. That's what separates sapient beings like you or me or Syl or Pattern from animals or subsapient spren, and I believe that the former have the god-given right to subdue the latter (which of course comes with duties regarding being a good steward).

On another point and moving this back to the original topic (IoTE spoilers):

Spoiler

Isles Of The Emberdark appears to show that the Malwish have conquered Scadrial and spread their influences among the stars, and are locked in a cold war with Roshar (the sole Rosharan representative seen so far is apparently a Skybreaker, so possibly Retribution still reigns over Roshar but Honor's legacy still survives in exile elsewhere).

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that end. When you spoke out defending Scadrial in this thread, all your focus seemed to be on the children of Elendel, the North Scadriens, and by all appearances that nation has been subjugated and that culture destroyed by the time of Isles Of The Emberdark. Assuming Sanderson doesn't have some unexpected plot twist in play, what are your thoughts? Is this a better end that you feared? Certainly it seems to me a very tragic ending, at least much so as the fall of Honor and the destruction of the Coalition at the end of Wind and Truth.

 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

I haven't read Isles of The Emberdark, The Sunlit Man, or Yumi And The Nightmare Painter.

I appreciate that I haven't been spoiled on them, and I'm not going to open spoiler tags for them.  I would appreciate if information on, from, or about these books were either kept in spoiler tags or not posted in this thread.

I'm worried that this thread will get flooded with spoilers for Isles Of The Emberdark once that book leaves the Spoiler Zone.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

3 hours ago, Aeshdan said:

You may not "think like people think", but you do think. You can read and write, can consider abstract concepts and make value judgements. That's what separates sapient beings like you or me or Syl or Pattern from animals or subsapient spren, and I believe that the former have the god-given right to subdue the latter (which of course comes with duties regarding being a good steward).

Is literacy the crux of that? Also, would a being who was to us as we are to say a crow or raven have the right to subdue and steward us as we might a corvid or octopus?

[therunner he/him]

19 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Their pacifism is done really poorly though. They rely on having a lower caste who does all the things they call violent.

I wouldn't say its done poorly, just contradictory. 

Their culture did have more violent periods in the past (the Shin Invasions), and on Roshar of all planets nation full of pacifist simply couldn't survive circa ~8 millenia.

So by necessity their culture has to make some allowance for violence. Currently that takes the shape of pushing that 'crime' on permanent underclass

Quote

But there is yet to be a Cosmere planet that does not seem to bend towards having a class of elites who manage access to both magic and violence.

Well, elites are formed from those who have some type of power, be it economical, martial, or social.  Adding magic into the mix just means that possibly those with magical power will rise to be the elites in their society.

And in pre-industrial society, access to magic generally puts you quite far over others, meaning you will have inherent advantage. Over time that will compound, especially if in the magic there is element heredity (like in Metallic Arts), proximity (like in Surgebinding), or plain inheritance (like in Awakening).

Even Elantrians formed a permanent elite class near Elantris, and that is despite them lacking any heradity (though the invitation mechanism possibly nulls that).

11 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Quote

Cultivation had space to raise this issue (she did visit the Tower), or employ her agents to stop it, and never did.

Perhaps consider that the Tower is the Sibling's physical form. And, as Navani eventually realizes, it is also a fabrial. So the Sibling is a pre-Recreance fabrial, a spren who volunteered to become a tool. Just a really cool, complicated, powerful tool.

What does that have to do with the fact that Cultivation doesn't seem to be opposed to modern design of fabrials?

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

12 hours ago, therunner said:

So by necessity their culture has to make some allowance for violence. Currently that takes the shape of pushing that 'crime' on permanent underclass

I am just shocked that a society with a heavily armed under class is not suffering more revolts or something.

Szeth started one, but he wrapped that up pretty fast.

I know warrior-slaves were a thing in a lot of societies, but the examples I know of for that all made those slaves entitled to a higher standard of living than the median person in that culture. The Janissaries of the Ottoman Sultans were enslaved as children, but they also got paid pretty well.

I guess the magic of honorblades and maybe Ishar liking Shin being like that while having done whatever with the Well of Control is why this contradiction stayed for so long. Or maybe Cosmere history just doesn't have dialectics most of the time because Mr Sanderson does not think of history like that.

[NameIess]

18 hours ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I haven't read Isles of The Emberdark, The Sunlit Man, or Yumi And The Nightmare Painter.

I appreciate that I haven't been spoiled on them, and I'm not going to open spoiler tags for them.  I would appreciate if information on, from, or about these books were either kept in spoiler tags or not posted in this thread.

I'm worried that this thread will get flooded with spoilers for Isles Of The Emberdark once that book leaves the Spoiler Zone.

I'm interested to see your reaction to Yumi and the Nightmare Painter. You should definitely read that one soon.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, ParaTulip said:

I am just shocked that a society with a heavily armed under class is not suffering more revolts or something.

Szeth started one, but he wrapped that up pretty fast.

I know warrior-slaves were a thing in a lot of societies, but the examples I know of for that all made those slaves entitled to a higher standard of living than the median person in that culture. The Janissaries of the Ottoman Sultans were enslaved as children, but they also got paid pretty well.

I guess the magic of honorblades and maybe Ishar liking Shin being like that while having done whatever with the Well of Control is why this contradiction stayed for so long. Or maybe Cosmere history just doesn't have dialectics most of the time because Mr Sanderson does not think of history like that.

Well how is a revolt supposed to overcome Honorblades?

Even if they overthrew one particular monastery their rebellion wouldn't last long against the Honorbearers and their acolytes.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

 

3 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

I know warrior-slaves were a thing in a lot of societies, but the examples I know of for that all made those slaves entitled to a higher standard of living than the median person in that culture. The Janissaries of the Ottoman Sultans were enslaved as children, but they also got paid pretty well.

I would dispute "a lot" here.  The Jannissaries of the Ottomans and the Mamluks are the only examples I can think of, and, as you said, those don't map very well to what we see in Shinovar, especially if you take into account the way that those situations changed over generations where the Watchers on the Rim seems to have not done so.

 

Interestingly, I actually approve of the Shin more than just about any other Ashynite culture, because they stayed in Shin like they were supposed to.

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

 

I would dispute "a lot" here.  The Jannissaries of the Ottomans and the Mamluks are the only examples I can think of, and, as you said, those don't map very well to what we see in Shinovar, especially if you take into account the way that those situations changed over generations where the Watchers on the Rim seems to have not done so.

 

Interestingly, I actually approve of the Shin more than just about any other Ashynite culture, because they stayed in Shin like they were supposed to.

Well, they just failed to leave during their invasion a thousand years back.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well, they just failed to leave during their invasion a thousand years back.

Yeah, that's on me for admitting to approving of something.

But, getting the thread back to "there is no hope for Scadrial", I did a count, and got these figures:

Civilization-inhabited Non-Autonomy Worlds:  Sel, Scadrial, Nalthis, Braize, Roshar, Threnody.  Six total.

Autonomy Worlds:  Taldain, Lumar, First of the Sun, Second of the Sun, Third of the Sun, Obrodai (poor Obrodai, claimed off-page in chapter epigraphs... Patji's letter is genuinely the scariest thing mister Sanderson ever wrote).  Six, probably not total.

As far as I know, every new whatever-adjective-means-that-one-or-more-stories-are-set-there world since 2010 has been an Autonomy world, with the singular exception of Threnody (the setting of a story that wasn't part of the original Cosmere plan, but was a side-thing done for a short-story collection involving multiple authors).

I don't think that there's any other civilization-inhabited Non-Autonomy worlds left in the Cosmere.  It's been 20 years since Elantris, I think we've gotten all we're going to get.

Whatever world the Aethers are from, I'm guessing is an Autonomy-world, because that one guy told his guys not to kill the Set guys, and if anyone did that with regards to Retribution's guys I'd assume certain things, so I'm assuming certain things here.  Whatever world Kelsier mentioned as a possible ally is also probably an Autonomy-world, because if I assume it is than I can't be surprised by a rug-pull wherein it turns out to be.

Edgli's alive, obviously.

The other Shards and their worlds, we haven't seen, except in the chapter-epigraph letters, and Edgli's letter is inconsistent with Harmony's letter (in its description of Valor's intentions and willingness to communicate with Hoid), which makes me think that Autonomy's been impersonating Valor to mess with Harmony, which makes me think that perhaps every shard Harmony has "talked to" has been Autonomy impersonating a dead shard (Invention, Whimsy, Mercy) and getting away with it because he's, as far as gods go, in his earliest infancy years.  This would explain why ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THE OTHER SHARDS helped Harmony against Bavadin, and it might also explain why none of them helped during the Catacendre (and perhaps why none helped Tanavast when he called).  They're all dead, Bavadin killed them and took over their worlds.

Frost's letter says it's been millennia since Rayse took the life of another of the sixteen, but says nothing about Bavadin.

My theory is that Bavadin helped Rayse against Aona and Skai, and possibly also against Uli Da.

This would leave the notable factions in the Cosmere as follows:

1: Autonomy/Autonomy worlds/Autonomy worshippers (second-scariest, because she's reportedly one of mister Sanderson's favorite characters, and everybody always insists that she's "complicated" rather than evil, no matter how freaking evil it is to invade worlds and do the whole Set thing)

2: Retribution/Retribution Worlds/ Retribution Worshippers (third-scariest, because he's the biggest evil and the Final Boss, and will probably destroy or conquer at least one world before being stopped... and Scadrial is his first target)

3: The Anti-Retribution coalition on Roshar (First scariest, because if they oppose you then you're the villain, and that means you lose, no matter what they do)

4: Edgli/Nalthis/the Nalthians (The only ones I'm neither scared of nor scared for)

5: Harmony/Scadrial/the Scadrians (imminently doomed, since The Lost Metal ended the way it did, meaning that "oh no oh no oh no we're doomed but at least the worst hasn't happened yet" is the best things are going to be, because a new series means things get worse.  Same way that Era 2 undercuts Era 1 and destroys its happy ending, the Ghostbloods series is probably going to have a similar starting-point relative to The Lost Metal's ending.  Also, since the transition between Eras meant that we haven't had actual Mistborns doing Mistborn things since 2008, the Ghostbloods series will almost certainly do a similar nerf on Allomancy and Feruchemy, assuming that such magics even exist... those of you who don't remember before The Alloy Of Law have no idea how much it hurt to have Mistborn transition to being something not involving Mistborns, or how much it hurt to have Aluminum become a thing and invalidate most of the magic system.)

6: Threnodites (imminently doomed, they have no shards)

7: Sel (imminently doomed, they have no Shards, )

Yes, I know that Dalinar and Retribution both claimed to see or be aware of other gods, but what if those were avatars of Autonomy?

I mean, Autonomy can just claim entire worlds offhandly in a paragraph.  And the whole foreshadowing with Trelagism being about how all the stars are Trell's eyes...

I think it's too late in the game to introduce new magic systems, new non-Autonomy worlds, and Shards we haven't met yet.  All the notable factions were either introduced in the first few years of the Cosmere (2005-2011) or were introduced in 2016's Arcanum Unbounded.

The only new world I've seen is Lumar, and that's obviously an Autonomy-world, given its weird setup with the moons, because bizarre orbit stuff is her jam.  Also, it's from a Secret Project, and those weren't originally intended to be published in the first place.  The fact that we're getting Mistborn movies and a The Stormlight Archive show instead of books means that we've passed the point of introducing new stuff because we're just going over old stuff.

People assume that Scadrial has some kind of advantage due to technology, but that's a fake advantage.  Having guns when the other side is pre-industrial isn't a method-of-solving-the-plot-and-winning that protagonist factions go around having, it's a method-of-winning-off-page at best, and more often it's a method-of-taking-over used by bad guys (monopolizing all the magic swords and using teleportation and planet-destroying magics is A-OK, because that's unique and interesting).  It's a setup for your enemies reverse-engineering your stuff; any innovation is a buff to everyone.  And, for crying out loud, Invention is/was its own shard, if that one or that one's worshippers ever show up they're gonna go all "lol, look at these arrogant Scadrians thinking they're clever.".

I think that the idea that Autonomy was threatened by Scadrial's technology is a misdirect created by Autonomy to trick her enemies into specializing into technology, and both Kelsier and Harmony took the bait.  But, even in Sci-Fi, unless it's cool technology, it's not gonna win you the day.  Don't be too proud of any technological terror you construct.

We waited 11 years for The Lost Metal, and that was the ending we got.  For all we know, the Set's still around and active, for all we know, there are other Wayfarers, for all we know, Autonomy can and will try again at any time, and for all we know, some of the missing ladies might have been taken off-world.  Yeah...  The happy ending is survival.  The book was written from 2020-2022, and it shows.  The evil undefeatable world-ending oppressive horror going "I'll withdraw for now" came off as downright joyous back then, because all fiction was less distressing than reality.

 

 

 

Yes, yes, I know my theory is wrong, all of my theories are wrong, that's why I don't make new theory threads.   I know there are all sorts of WOBs disproving any supposition I can come up with, and I know there's probably stuff in books I haven't read disproving them, I'm operating off of the actual words on the printed pages I've read, and I'm operating off of pattern recognition, and I'm operating off of "if I expect it, it can't surprise me, and if my ideas are sad enough they'll be less sad than what happens so I'll be relieved maybe", and I'm operating off of "maybe if I set my expectations as low as possible, then I can avoid being disappointed".

My point is that it's no longer fun to make up one's own Cosmere worlds because any world can just get got by Bavadin at any point like Obrodai and nobody will give a darn because the Cosmere is a horrifying place.

Edited February 21 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well how is a revolt supposed to overcome Honorblades?

Even if they overthrew one particular monastery their rebellion wouldn't last long against the Honorbearers and their acolytes.

My thought would be to do it during a weaping and hope to do some kind of coordinated decapitation strike, but I guess that is hard to pull off considering the timing and distances.

But then Ishar is there to do Lord Ruler shaped things in order to put it back.

It is interesting to imagine Shin as a something like a prettier Era 1 Scadrial. Ishar isn't visibly in charge, it seems like the leaders of Shin are an oligarchy, but if anyone threatens the system he can step in to put it back.

[Frustration]

54 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Autonomy Worlds:  Taldain, Lumar, First of the Sun, Second of the Sun, Third of the Sun, Obrodai (poor Obrodai, claimed off-page in chapter epigraphs... Patji's letter is genuinely the scariest thing mister Sanderson ever wrote).  Six, probably not total.

I honestly want to see Obrodai, it's just name dropped and then never touched again.

55 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The other Shards and their worlds, we haven't seen, except in the chapter-epigraph letters, and Edgli's letter is inconsistent with Harmony's letter (in its description of Valor's intentions and willingness to communicate with Hoid), which makes me think that Autonomy's been impersonating Valor to mess with Harmony, which makes me think that perhaps every shard Harmony has "talked to" has been Autonomy impersonating a dead shard (Invention, Whimsy, Mercy) and getting away with it because he's, as far as gods go, in his earliest infancy years.  This would explain why ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THE OTHER SHARDS helped Harmony against Bavadin, and it might also explain why none of them helped during the Catacendre (and perhaps why none helped Tanavast when he called).  They're all dead, Bavadin killed them and took over their worlds.

That's honestly interesting, I hadn't noticed that Harmony and Endowment say different things about Valor, you're right.

Though I doubt a shard could be fooled by an Avatar, they do have really good senses.

57 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

3: The Anti-Retribution coalition on Roshar (First scariest, because if they oppose you then you're the villain, and that means you lose, no matter what they do)

You have no idea how much this made me laugh.

57 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

6: Threnodites (imminently doomed, they have no shards)

Slight TSM spoilers, almost non-existent, like saying that Kaladin kills a lighteyes at the start of WoK level significance but I'll spoiler it just in case.

Spoiler

Even Hoid is scared of these guys. They're powerful.

 

59 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

7: Sel (imminently doomed, they have no Shards, )

Yeah I'm not bringing the WoBs in on this one. Unless you want me to. They don't say exactly what you're thinking, but it's along the same lines.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I think it's too late in the game to introduce new magic systems, new non-Autonomy worlds, and Shards we haven't met yet.  All the notable factions were either introduced in the first few years of the Cosmere (2005-2011) or were introduced in 2016's Arcanum Unbounded.

The only new world I've seen is Lumar, and that's obviously an Autonomy-world, given its weird setup with the moons, because bizarre orbit stuff is her jam.  Also, it's from a Secret Project, and those weren't originally intended to be published in the first place.  The fact that we're getting Mistborn movies and a The Stormlight Archive show instead of books means that we've passed the point of introducing new stuff because we're just going over old stuff.

Well we got Lumar, Komashi, Canticle, and whatever world FoD is on. I doubt that Autonomy has an avatar on Lumar as the Sorceress was only scared of Xisis and Hoid.

1 hour ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

People assume that Scadrial has some kind of advantage due to technology, but that's a fake advantage.  Having guns when the other side is pre-industrial isn't a method-of-solving-the-plot-and-winning that protagonist factions go around having, it's a method-of-winning-off-page at best, and more often it's a method-of-taking-over used by bad guys (monopolizing all the magic swords and using teleportation and planet-destroying magics is A-OK, because that's unique and interesting).  It's a setup for your enemies reverse-engineering your stuff; any innovation is a buff to everyone.  And, for crying out loud, Invention is/was its own shard, if that one or that one's worshippers ever show up they're gonna go all "lol, look at these arrogant Scadrians thinking they're clever.".

I have been saying this for five and a half years, thank you.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well we got Lumar, Komashi, Canticle, and whatever world FoD is on. I doubt that Autonomy has an avatar on Lumar as the Sorceress was only scared of Xisis and Hoid.

Well, Vin wasn't scared of Ruin until...

Yeah, you can't be scared of what you don't know is there.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I honestly want to see Obrodai, it's just name dropped and then never touched again.

I'm more invested in Obrodai than I am in Roshar, to be honest.  I want Obrodai to be saved or liberated or revealed-to-have-resisted-and-rejected-the-Avatar so bad.  At the very least if it got got I can imagine them and the Scadrians going "Whoa, we were both bullied by the same cosmic horror at the same time!  And Hoid didn't give a crud about either of us because he's obsessed with Roshar!  We are best friends now, time for buddy-cop adventures, kicking down doors, doing the hustle dance, and geeking out about our respective magic systems!"  SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP I'M ALLOWED TO DAYDREAM

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's honestly interesting, I hadn't noticed that Harmony and Endowment say different things about Valor, you're right.

I'm honestly kind of wondering if Valor is some kind of old friend or sweetheart of Hoid's, because Edgli's letter has genuine "Stay away from my homegirl/homeboy, you manipulative doimpus, I've got restraining orders on you!" undertones to me.

The Letters in general are fascinating.  I love how Hoid seems to be the screwup little brother of the Pre-Shattering bunch, the Pippin to the fellowship or the Gandalf to Arda's immortals.  I also think it's neat how the willingness to help Hoid, trust him, or assume the best of him seems to be absolutely inversely proportional to how long you've known him, with mortals (like Shallan) going, "Oh!  It's mah fren :)", Harmony going, "New Phone, who dis?  Wanna be frens?  I'm nice, you don't have to hide.  :)", the other shards going, "@%#$ you, and ^#$% your family, and &@^$ your dog", and Frost going, "Bro, I love ya like an annoying little brother, man, but HECK naw, everything you get involved in becomes an absolute freaking disaster, for the sake of everything that ever existed, STOP."

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You have no idea how much this made me laugh.

I haven't seen such author-favoritism towards (a) character(s) who grankles my bajankles since Judy Blume's Fudge books (Fudge was, in fact, the first character on the Hate List.  Seriously, that kid got NO consequences EVER for his constant bullcrud.).  My G.O.A.T. Ramona Quimby would never.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well we got Lumar, Komashi, Canticle, and whatever world FoD is on.

Don't know any of those worlds except Lumar, which has too much Orbital Shenanigans going on to not set off my Anti-Bavadin alarm bells (YOU'RE NOT JUMPSCARING ME WITH AN AUTONOMY REVEAL EVER AGAIN, MISTER SANDERSON!  I'M ON TO YOU!  Once and never again, once and never again, once and never again!).

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have been saying this for five and a half years, thank you.

Likewise, your Firepower Index expresses truths I have been trying to articulate for years.

Edited February 21 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Well, Vin wasn't scared of Ruin until...

Yeah, you can't be scared of what you don't know is there.

Don't know any of those worlds except Lumar, which has too much Orbital Shenanigans going on to not set off my Anti-Bavadin alarm bells (YOU'RE NOT JUMPSCARING ME WITH AN AUTONOMY REVEAL EVER AGAIN, MISTER SANDERSON!  I'M ON TO YOU!  Once and never again, once and never again, once and never again!).

Interesting. I'm tempted to break TES open again and start looking for this now.

19 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

I'm honestly kind of wondering if Valor is some kind of old friend or sweetheart of Hoid's, because Edgli's letter has genuine "Stay away from my homegirl/homeboy, you manipulative doimpus, I've got restraining orders on you!" undertones to me.

Well that's another one right on the money.

Dang you're doing really well at this lately.

19 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

The Letters in general are fascinating.  I love how Hoid seems to be the screwup little brother of the Pre-Shattering bunch, the Pippin to the fellowship or the Gandalf to Arda's immortals.  I also think it's neat how the willingness to help Hoid, trust him, or assume the best of him seems to be absolutely inversely proportional to how long you've known him, with mortals (like Shallan) going, "Oh!  It's mah fren :)", Harmony going, "New Phone, who dis?  Wanna be frens?  I'm nice, you don't have to hide.  :)", the other shards going, "@%#$ you, and ^#$% your family, and &@^$ your dog", and Frost going, "Bro, I love ya like an annoying little brother, man, but HECK naw, everything you get involved in becomes an absolute freaking disaster, for the sake of everything that ever existed, STOP."

 

Spoiler

 

 

22 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Likewise, your Firepower Index expresses truths I have been trying to articulate for years.

Really?

*Happy Frustration noises*

What parts?

[Immortal Platypus]

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

 

Yeah I'm not bringing the WoBs in on this one. Unless you want me to. They don't say exactly what you're thinking, but it's along the same lines.

IIRC, there's a WOB saying that someone could pick up the Dor and become a Vessel of Devotion/Dominion, but I don't think that's likely