How do you feel about inter-species…

[christianrapper]

Full Cosmere spoilers: How do you guys feel about inter-species dating? This is NOT about gay relationships so please don’t comment about that. I am definitely not about to get into that. I don’t know how I feel about humans dating listeners. No, that’s not racist. Humans dating other sapient species isn’t relatable to anything in the real world. It’s not like you dating an Asian, black person, white person, or anyone else outside of whatever race you are. It would be like you dating a sapient ape. Now just imagine yourself dating a sapient ape for a quick second. You can’t tell me that didn’t make you feel sick. How would you feel about dating someone like a listener. I am not talking about you as some omniscient reader who knows everyone’s thoughts and feelings. I mean the you now with your current hangups and that can only go by the way that characters look. I am not going to lie. If preventing a godlike being from waging war on humanity depended on me dating a sapient ape or shelled being then you guys better prepare for war because that’s not happening. Heck, if preventing a war depended on me marrying a Thaylen, you guys might be in trouble. Imagine Wax. He was dating a shape shifter and didn’t even know it. Dating in the Cosmere could definitely be tricky. You can find yourself unknowingly dating a spren or something and not even know it.

Edited January 10, 2025 by christianrapper
Clarification

[AlmightyGir]

Love is love. As long as both parties are capable of, and are consenting, what's the problem?

Your example of Wax is slightly different. His consent may have changed based on the with-held knowledge of the shape-shifting nature of his partner. But in the other cases we've seen (the most obvious being Rlain and Renarin), both parties are aware of the nature of each other's respective species, are capable of giving informed consent, and seem to do so.

The issue you're asking about is not one of inter-species relationships, but is instead one of trust between two individuals, where one of those individuals is deliberately witholding information.

[christianrapper]

On 1/7/2025 at 3:19 PM, cvamoca said:

Maybe it's telling that my favourites of this series are 2,1,3,5, and 4. I pretty much HATED 4. Most of Navani's stuff bored me, and all of depressed Kaladin. Adolin and Maya were my highpoints.

I'm here for the people and the planets, not the shards.

i've never gone further than book 2 of Mistborn. Though I love Elantris, Warbreaker.

 

I did know that, Urithuru is cut off from the rest of Roshar though aren't they? I'm sorry I have barnwork but will be back...

 

15 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

Love is love. As long as both parties are capable of, and are consenting, what's the problem?

Your example of Wax is slightly different. His consent may have changed based on the with-held knowledge of the shape-shifting nature of his partner. But in the other cases we've seen (the most obvious being Rlain and Renarin), both parties are aware of the nature of each other's respective species, are capable of giving informed consent, and seem to do so.

The issue you're asking about is not one of inter-species relationships, but is instead one of trust between two individuals, where one of those individuals is deliberately witholding information.

That Rlain/Renarin relationship is disgusting to me. Let’s not get into the same sex thing. I can’t imagine kissing a sapient shelled creature. Just imagine if apes were sapient and we have always known that. Now imagine yourself kissing a sapient ape. You can’t say that doesn’t make your skin crawl. That “love is love” phrase isn’t applicable to dating outside of your species. There are other practical problems with that also. There are things like introducing new diseases to the human population and other things like can you two even reproduce. 

[AlmightyGir]

I see this as being similar to Star-Trek. Humanoid is good enough for people to maintain relationships.

You're entitled to the way you feel, but I don't see this as a big deal.

[Argenti he/him]

24 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

Full Cosmere spoilers: How do you guys feel about inter-species dating? This is NOT about gay relationships so please don’t comment about that. I am definitely not about to get into that. I don’t know how I feel about humans dating listeners. No, that’s not racist. Humans dating other sapient species isn’t relatable to anything in the real world. It’s not like you dating an Asian, black person, white person, or anyone else outside of whatever race you are. It would be like you dating a sapient ape. Now just imagine yourself dating a sapient ape for a quick second. I am not going to lie. If preventing a godlike being from waging war on humanity depended on me dating a sapient ape or shelled being then you guys better prepare for war because that’s not happening. Heck, if preventing a war depended on me marrying a Thaylen, you guys might be in trouble. Imagine Wax. He was dating a shape shifter and didn’t even know it. Dating in the Cosmere could definitely be tricky. You can find yourself unknowingly dating a spren or something and not even know it.

While I probably wouldn't be attracted for a sentient ape (Too hairy and their proportions aren't attractive), beings like Sho-del,or singers aren't viewed as animalistic; not that would really stop anyone. I'd date a singer. They're close enough for Me.

The part about dating something odd and not knowing it doesn't really have anything to do with cross species. That's trust issues. I would be equally upset if my partner turned out to have been lying about their past as I would be if they where secretly an ape.

[MagicMaggot]

Singers are very, very human for an alien species. We had multiple singer pov's and while the writing tried to establish some differences in thinking... they really weren't much, and if they had instead been written as some human tribe, I probably wouldn't have noticed anything strange. They even physically very much resemble humans, though they can bond spren to change their bodies some. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly grew up with half-elves, -vulcans, -klingons and others as a pretty standard part of fantasy and sci-fi, and if that was made an issue, then usually to show how unnecessary and destructive the biases against them and their parents were. The singers fit neatly into the "humans with prostetics on their faces"-club I always knew. 

Wax's case certainly isn't the same, but while I won't discount the possibility of me personally having some hangups about dating a Kandra, it didn't bother me at all, when Wayne did it consensually.

The age- and power-differences in dating actually gave me more of a pause than the racial differences. Wit, the ancient Dawnshard, dating a 30-year-old? I guess I wouldn't forbid them if I could, but well, I can't say I expected or cheered for their long-term success. Or the idea of Dalinar as Honor, with his changed capacities trying to keep up a relationship with his wife, that was considered this book... That sounds too imbalanced.

[christianrapper]

20 minutes ago, Argenti said:

While I probably wouldn't be attracted for a sentient ape (Too hairy and their proportions aren't attractive), beings like Sho-del,or singers aren't viewed as animalistic; not that would really stop anyone. I'd date a singer. They're close enough for Me.

The part about dating something odd and not knowing it doesn't really have anything to do with cross species. That's trust issues. I would be equally upset if my partner turned out to have been lying about their past as I would be if they where secretly an ape.

If apes were sapient then they wouldn’t be viewed as animalistic. We would view them like Rosharans view Listeners. 

23 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Singers are very, very human for an alien species. We had multiple singer pov's and while the writing tried to establish some differences in thinking... they really weren't much, and if they had instead been written as some human tribe, I probably wouldn't have noticed anything strange. They even physically very much resemble humans, though they can bond spren to change their bodies some. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly grew up with half-elves, -vulcans, -klingons and others as a pretty standard part of fantasy and sci-fi, and if that was made an issue, then usually to show how unnecessary and destructive the biases against them and their parents were. The singers fit neatly into the "humans with prostetics on their faces"-club I always knew. 

Wax's case certainly isn't the same, but while I won't discount the possibility of me personally having some hangups about dating a Kandra, it didn't bother me at all, when Wayne did it consensually.

The age- and power-differences in dating actually gave me more of a pause than the racial differences. Wit, the ancient Dawnshard, dating a 30-year-old? I guess I wouldn't forbid them if I could, but well, I can't say I expected or cheered for their long-term success. Or the idea of Dalinar as Honor, with his changed capacities trying to keep up a relationship with his wife, that was considered this book... That sounds too imbalanced.

It’s easy to say that listeners are human when you know their inner thoughts and motivations. However, if one approached you then you wouldn’t know any of that. You wouldn’t be an omniscient reader. You would only go by the way they look. Listeners look more or less human by the forms that they take.  Those forms also influence their personalities. There’s a difference between being friendly with a listener and actually being physical with one. 

[NotLiamRoss He/Him]

37 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

There are things like introducing new diseases to the human population and other things like can you two even reproduce

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Herdazians and Horneaters both had some Singer ancestry which accounts for their stone nails and harder teeth respectively. This implies that at least as soon as a few thousand years ago, there was some human-Singer interbreeding that could produce offspring. 

In response to your sapient ape line of inquiry humans literally did this. We managed to interbreed so thoroughly with Neanderthals that Neanderthals as a separate species no longer exist today. It's not as far-fetched an idea as you might think. Now whether or not you would do it personally is your own choice and a different matter entirely, but it definitely wouldn't (and anthropologically didn't) stop many many other people.

[Doomdrinker she/her]

Well the Horneaters and the Herdazians both have singer ancestry so it was pretty heavily foreshadowed, the only surprise for me was that Rlain and Renarin where the first one we saw on screen as it where 

[Returned he/him]

31 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

Now imagine yourself kissing a sapient ape.

Humans are sapient apes, though I know that's not what you mean.

I don't care about inter-species relationships. It doesn't matter to me at all if someone else wants to do something like that (provided that the other party is capable of agreeing to it, and does so). Your claimed arguments broadly seem off-base to me: not all romantic or personal relationships require sexual interaction of any type (including human-human relationships), not all human couples are capable of reproducing, a disease that can spread among different species isn't necessarily going to be only a sexually transmitted disease (and new diseases crop up all the time, from a variety of sources).

You don't like interspecies relationships because you find them off-putting-- you find them gross. It's fine that you feel that way, but let's not pretend that your personal revulsion should have any relevance to anyone else, nor that it is more important than another person's finding it appealing. If it's all about the personal revulsion for you then it is exactly like opposition to the romantic relationships between groups you don't want to discuss. Do what you want, read what you want, like what you like, dislike what you dislike, but don't be surprised if "I think it's gross" doesn't resonate with people who don't already feel that way.

In the first post you said you wouldn't date a Thaylen-- why is that? You also say you don't know how you feel about a human-singer relationship, but later say you find the Renarin/Rlain relationship disgusting-- is that only due to the warform carapace?

[Treamayne]

57 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

like can you two even reproduce. 

Singers and Humans can reproduce. Horneaters and Herdazians are both descendants of Singer heritage. 

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Are Parshendi/human hybrids possible?

Brandon Sanderson

They are. In fact, both the Horneaters and the Herdazians are descendants of human/Parshendi, human/listener hybrids. And there's very, very small remnants of it; they are mostly human. But they have a bit of listener heritage, just like a lot of us have some Neanderthal heritage. They, perhaps, have a little bit more in their past.

So, yes, this is possible.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

Quote

Finallity (paraphrased)

We've seen a number of human/singer hybrids (Unkalaki and Herdazians) and even human/Aimian hybrids (Natans). How is such a thing possible biologically or is there some outside influence there?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that they (humans and parshendi/aimians) can interbreed because they were made by the same person, or rather that they were made with the same intent, that they were made that way on purpose. They don't have a common heritage or anything though.

English Reading Series at BYU 2018 (Feb. 23, 2018)

Quote

Questioner

On Roshar, the Alethi, their hair breeds... I was wondering, what happens if, say, Adolin and Shalan have a child. Does that child have red and black and golden hair? Does this mean that at some point in the future you could have a rainbow haired child?

Brandon Sanderson

You can have a rainbow haired child on Roshar. Do know that the hair breeds true. It's easy for it to be bred out.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

I'm sorry if these things bother you, but they are, and will be part of the Cosmere - because species differentiation in the Cosmere - and even genetics - is not the same as it is for us. Having Intent and Investiture as a basic component of Reality (in the Matter-Energy-Investiture cycle) makes it different. That's also why Adolin's hair is Golden-Blonde with locks of "Alethi" Black (showing shared Ririan and Alethi heritage) rather than one gene being dominant and mostly or completely supressing the recessive gene. 

It's okay for you to not like it, it's okay for others to be fine with it.
If it really bothers you, then I would suggest maybe asking yourself if this series is for you, or if this would bother you enough to eliminate some or all of the Cosmere from further reading - because I doubt this is going away. It is fundamental to the Cosmere for reasons that have not yet been fully explained. 

Thank you for your time and consideration. 

 

Edit: Also please remember that you can use (or edit) Support and Discuss tags in your topic title to indicate if you want to commiserate with like-minded Sharders, or accept friendly debate from opposing viewpoints (hostile arguing should be avoided or it will be reported, so lets all remain civil please - great job so far).
Summary from that link:

Spoiler

That’s where these tags come in. After a lot of discussion, we’ve come up with a simple two-tag model: [Discuss] and [Support]!

[Discuss] should be used to signal that you are open to:

• More in-depth digging into a topic 
• Disagreements or challenges to your ideas
• Debate and collaborative theorycrafting

[Support], on the other hand, indicates that you want to:

• Talk about something that bothers you, without being criticized for being bothered
• Express joy, appreciation, or enthusiasm, knowing that others in the thread will respond with the same vibe
• Have a more casual conversation, avoiding nitpicking and debate

“But what is a tag and how do I use it?” I hear you asking. Basically, using [Discuss]/[Support] will function the same as the tags in topic titles that indicate spoilers. Simply add the appropriate tag to the end of your topic title in square brackets, like so:

• THEORY! Aons are Shardblades in Disguise! [Discuss]
• Way of Kings Needs More Balat POVs [Support]

And of course, keep spoilers out of topic titles!

 

Edited January 9, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Reckless Disregard]

If they’re cool with it, I’m cool with it 

 

[Darvys]

I find it disgusting personally, knew it was coming, knew my brain would filter it out when it did, at first I was annoyed it would involve Renarin since I was curious about his arc, but from the preview we got in WaT, I won't be missing much, so meh, have at it, it's the least of my worries relating the future of these stories.

[MagicMaggot]

40 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

There’s a difference between being friendly with a listener and actually being physical with one. 

Sure, and physically it would probably make a lot of difference what form we are talking about. Would I like to get physical with an armored warform? Unlikely, that sounds uncomfortable in all kinds of ways. The envoyform fashion spreads looked fine enough though, if it came to that, and I'd expect a lot less sharp edges and more pronounced fun parts on mate forms...

And that's assuming that it is about physicality, which it doesn't necessarily have to be to start something. 

Edited January 9, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Argenti he/him]

 

1 hour ago, MagicMaggot said:

Singers are very, very human for an alien species. We had multiple singer pov's and while the writing tried to establish some differences in thinking... they really weren't much, and if they had instead been written as some human tribe, I probably wouldn't have noticed anything strange. They even physically very much resemble humans, though they can bond spren to change their bodies some. I can only speak for myself, but I certainly grew up with half-elves, -vulcans, -klingons and others as a pretty standard part of fantasy and sci-fi, and if that was made an issue, then usually to show how unnecessary and destructive the biases against them and their parents were. The singers fit neatly into the "humans with prostetics on their faces"-club I always knew. 

Wax's case certainly isn't the same, but while I won't discount the possibility of me personally having some hangups about dating a Kandra, it didn't bother me at all, when Wayne did it consensually.

The age- and power-differences in dating actually gave me more of a pause than the racial differences. Wit, the ancient Dawnshard, dating a 30-year-old? I guess I wouldn't forbid them if I could, but well, I can't say I expected or cheered for their long-term success. Or the idea of Dalinar as Honor, with his changed capacities trying to keep up a relationship with his wife, that was considered this book... That sounds too imbalanced.

Yes, like you said, Singers are downright normal as far Alien romances go. If one gets disturbed by crab-people kissing humans, they're very much not prepared for people kissing straight up Crabs, or Insects, or things with way to many eyes.

There are weirder things that people are attracted to. Some people think the color blue is attractive

5 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Sure, and physically it would probably make a lot of difference what form we are talking about. Would I like to get physical with an armored warform? Unlikely, that sounds uncomfortable in all kinds of ways. The envoyform fashion spreads looked fine enough though, if it came to that, and I'd expect a lot less sharp edges and more pronounced fun parts on mate forms...

And that's assuming that it is about physicality, which it doesn't necessarily have to be to start something. 

Especially with how the singers are almost Asexual while in other forms, physically doesn't really matter. 

[rabidhexley]

This is the oddest discussion to me lol. Inter-humanoid species dating is like totally standard stuff for speculative fiction. What if Rlain was an Elf instead? Would that be okay? Elves aren't human either. Is romancing Asari crew members in Mass Effect gross?

 

Singers are just another take on the huge library of humanoid fantasy/sci-fi races. Is it just weird because they have shells?

Edited January 9, 2025 by rabidhexley

[Ahriman he/him]

9 minutes ago, rabidhexley said:

This is the oddest discussion to me lol. Inter-humanoid species dating is like totally standard stuff for speculative fiction. What if Rlain was an Elf instead? Would that be okay? Elves aren't human either. Is romancing Asari crew members in Mass Effect gross?

It's very common, but it's interesting to me because I often find that nonhumans in fantasy/science fiction are too human. To use your Mass Effect example, I did find the concept of romance with aliens in that game sonewhat offputting (though I wish I could have played as one), and I was disappointed that mistrusting aliens in general was treated the same as racism. I've always found the general comfort with interspecies relationships odd. Not necessarily bad, but I've always wondered why "Is this acceptable?" is rarely treated as a decent question within these narratives or in real-world discussion of them.

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

9 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Full Cosmere spoilers: How do you guys feel about inter-species dating? This is NOT about gay relationships so please don’t comment about that. I am definitely not about to get into that. I don’t know how I feel about humans dating listeners. No, that’s not racist. Humans dating other sapient species isn’t relatable to anything in the real world. It’s not like you dating an Asian, black person, white person, or anyone else outside of whatever race you are. It would be like you dating a sapient ape. Now just imagine yourself dating a sapient ape for a quick second. I am not going to lie. If preventing a godlike being from waging war on humanity depended on me dating a sapient ape or shelled being then you guys better prepare for war because that’s not happening. Heck, if preventing a war depended on me marrying a Thaylen, you guys might be in trouble. Imagine Wax. He was dating a shape shifter and didn’t even know it. Dating in the Cosmere could definitely be tricky. You can find yourself unknowingly dating a spren or something and not even know it.

Well, I think stormlight/fantasy is a little diffrent for me than reality or hard scifi.

Humans and Singers are diffrent species? Sure. But they are also literally created by the same God. As far as we know, neither evolved in this universe. They were just made. Singers and humans were created so closely in resemblance they can interbreed. So I feel like Adonalsium condoned them getting it on

l

Would I find it odd to date a warform? Sure. But if others don't they are welcome to it.

So long as the consent angle is clear I'm okay with it.

In high fantasy humans dating elves is a thing even though the age and power gaps are often insane.

The dating a Kandra thing was a little more icky to me. Because you're in some ways dating a corpse. And there was definitely dubious consent going on.

 

On that note. Technically humans on scadrial are as closely related to rosharans as singers are. They to were made from scratch independently from other humans.

And come on, what's wrong with Thaylens. They just have long eyebrows, and are definitely human, just not a type that exists on roshar.

[christianrapper]

14 hours ago, Returned said:

Humans are sapient apes, though I know that's not what you mean.

I don't care about inter-species relationships. It doesn't matter to me at all if someone else wants to do something like that (provided that the other party is capable of agreeing to it, and does so). Your claimed arguments broadly seem off-base to me: not all romantic or personal relationships require sexual interaction of any type (including human-human relationships), not all human couples are capable of reproducing, a disease that can spread among different species isn't necessarily going to be only a sexually transmitted disease (and new diseases crop up all the time, from a variety of sources).

You don't like interspecies relationships because you find them off-putting-- you find them gross. It's fine that you feel that way, but let's not pretend that your personal revulsion should have any relevance to anyone else, nor that it is more important than another person's finding it appealing. If it's all about the personal revulsion for you then it is exactly like opposition to the romantic relationships between groups you don't want to discuss. Do what you want, read what you want, like what you like, dislike what you dislike, but don't be surprised if "I think it's gross" doesn't resonate with people who don't already feel that way.

In the first post you said you wouldn't date a Thaylen-- why is that? You also say you don't know how you feel about a human-singer relationship, but later say you find the Renarin/Rlain relationship disgusting-- is that only due to the warform carapace?

So here’s the question. If you were on Roshar could you see yourself kissing a war form listene? 

[MagicMaggot]

Is this really supposed to be a "how f...mateable are warforms to you"-discussion? 

You know they don't have to stay in warform all the time?

[RedBlue]

38 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Is this really supposed to be a "how f...mateable are warforms to you"-discussion? 

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what is happening.

[Asininity]

This whole thread is just bizarre to me.

I thought forums like this were primarily for crackpot theory-crafting and painstaking analysis of the tiniest details that most readers miss. I did not expect people to be so deeply invested in questions like, “would you storm a crab-person?” or “what sexually transmitted diseases might be involved?” What the hell? xD

[Geoffray]

Maybe this will help...

 

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/blogs/blog/on-renarin-and-rlain

 

 

[bmcclure7]

17 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Full Cosmere spoilers: How do you guys feel about inter-species dating? This is NOT about gay relationships so please don’t comment about that. I am definitely not about to get into that. I don’t know how I feel about humans dating listeners. No, that’s not racist. Humans dating other sapient species isn’t relatable to anything in the real world. It’s not like you dating an Asian, black person, white person, or anyone else outside of whatever race you are. It would be like you dating a sapient ape. Now just imagine yourself kissing a sapient ape for a quick second. You can’t tell me that didn’t make you feel sick. How would you feel about being physical with someone like a listener. I am not talking about you as some omniscient reader who knows everyone’s thoughts and feelings. I mean the you now with your current hangups and that can only go by the way that characters look. I am not going to lie. If preventing a godlike being from waging war on humanity depended on me dating a sapient ape or shelled being then you guys better prepare for war because that’s not happening. Heck, if preventing a war depended on me marrying a Thaylen, you guys might be in trouble. Imagine Wax. He was dating a shape shifter and didn’t even know it. Dating in the Cosmere could definitely be tricky. You can find yourself unknowingly dating a spren or something and not even know it.

 

Humans and singers can breed together meaning that they must share enough DNA that they can be considered pretty much the same species. How that works I have no idea Cosmere mumbo-jumbo

[CtrlAltDepressed]

14 hours ago, Ahriman said:

I've always found the general comfort with interspecies relationships odd. Not necessarily bad, but I've always wondered why "Is this acceptable?" is rarely treated as a decent question within these narratives or in real-world discussion of them.

Because at the end of the day people are people. Wether they are old or young, large or small, yolish or singer - thats a person. This extends to spren too, it seems. Its clear that Brandon wants us to view all of these different groups as people. I think there is some alien prejudice involved in this discussion because people are imagining real life aliens. Thats why this is acceptable (imo).

 

These aren't real life aliens. They are a species that has been living in concert with humans for THOUSANDS of years. Its not like a singer hopped off a spaceship and immediately started dating a human. Even if that was the case, they all have a common creator. Ado clearly intended for species to be able to breed, or they wouldn't have allowed that. 

 

There is a lot of this in the cosmere. We have Wax and Wayne both dating Kandra (who are far more inhuman than singers, they literally eat humans). We have heralds dating humans when they are basically spren. We have Hoid dating Jasnah even though he knew her great great great great great great grandpa. We have Syladin basically comfirmed. 

 

People are people, and this is a fantasy universe. I expect us to see all kinds of relationships. Dragons with humans, humans and sho-del, shard and human, sleepless and dragon, spren and sho-del could all be possible.