Did book 5 affect your feelings of the whole series?

[christianrapper]

For me book 5 dropped this series from being a 9-10 to about a 6.5. I don’t even know that I can recommend Stormlight to anyone anymore with this 8 year break in between books. Book 5 was way too contrived for Todium to get the win. We got to see two radiants take the 5th oath and we didn’t see them do anything. They turned Szeth into a moron for one scene. What was the point in taking the 5th oath and then giving up the bond? That only happened so that Szeth could lose his arm. He could have easily done that after he finished fighting his last fights. 

[earthexile]

Szeth could not have held the 5th Ideal, for he had become his own lawmaker, and was finally able to tell his spren to buzz off. If a man is to make his own choices and follow his own heart, he can't move forward in a relationship that he doesn't want. 

And Kaladin couldn't do any cool Surgebinder spear fighting, because he'd realized how little his capacity for violence could actually help the situation. Besides, we'll get to enjoy superpowered Herald Kaladin in the future. 

I've seen people saying that Odium's victory was somehow a contrivance, but Dalinar more or less spells it out- there's no victory in perpetuating a race war for another thousand years. There's no victory in smashing gods together while the world turns to ash. There's no victory in submitting to Odium's rule. So the only sensible thing to do was flip the table, end the game, reshape the entire situation into one where Taravangian is playing defense against the universe instead of dominating Roshar for another fifty generations unhindered.

You can not defeat hate and darkness and ancient grudges with more violence. That, more than anything, seems to be the whole point of the story. You can become the Best At Killing, but if the enemy is hate itself, what use is that? Understanding, empathy, truly deciding to listen to those who hate you instead of meeting them blade-for-blade, these are how you actually make anything better for anyone. Sure, you have to pick up that spear and stab people when they're trying to stab you first, but that's not progress towards your goal. Just another of the tragedies you'd rather never happened.

Edited December 29, 2024 by earthexile

[Letryx13]

11 hours ago, christianrapper said:

For me book 5 dropped this series from being a 9-10 to about a 6.5. I don’t even know that I can recommend Stormlight to anyone anymore with this 8 year break in between books. Book 5 was way too contrived for Todium to get the win. We got to see two radiants take the 5th oath and we didn’t see them do anything. They turned Szeth into a moron for one scene. What was the point in taking the 5th oath and then giving up the bond? That only happened so that Szeth could lose his arm. He could have easily done that after he finished fighting his last fights. 

Totally get where you’re coming from. This is definitely my least favorite of Sanderson’s books so far. And I hate that we are going to have such a long wait with this cliffhanger. Having said that, it’s not completely a win for Todium. It’s a loss for Roshar, but the fact that Dalinar’s sacrifice move has gotten the attention of the other shards makes it more of a draw for Todium than an outright win. 
 

1 hour ago, earthexile said:

Szeth could not have held the 5th Ideal, for he had become his own lawmaker, and was finally able to tell his spren to buzz off. If a man is to make his own choices and follow his own heart, he can't move forward in a relationship that he doesn't want. 

And Kaladin couldn't do any cool Surgebinder spear fighting, because he'd realized how little his capacity for violence could actually help the situation. Besides, we'll get to enjoy superpowered Herald Kaladin in the future. 

I've seen people saying that Odium's victory was somehow a contrivance, but Dalinar more or less spells it out- there's no victory in perpetuating a race war for another thousand years. There's no victory in smashing gods together while the world turns to ash. There's no victory in submitting to Odium's rule. So the only sensible thing to do was flip the table, end the game, reshape the entire situation into one where Taravangian is playing defense against the universe instead of dominating Roshar for another fifty generations unhindered.

You can not defeat hate and darkness and ancient grudges with more violence. That, more than anything, seems to be the whole point of the story. You can become the Best At Killing, but if the enemy is hate itself, what use is that? Understanding, empathy, truly deciding to listen to those who hate you instead of meeting them blade-for-blade, these are how you actually make anything better for anyone. Sure, you have to pick up that spear and stab people when they're trying to stab you first, but that's not progress towards your goal. Just another of the tragedies you'd rather never happened.

I also agree with you, but I think it’s fair to say that Dalinar got the better of Taravangian. Not only did he manage to escape the trap Taravangian set for the contest, but he managed to trigger the one thing that Taravangian didn’t want to happen. The same thing Hoid had been trying to achieve since the Way of Kings. A mobilization of the shards and other forces in the cosmere. 

[christianrapper]

17 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Totally get where you’re coming from. This is definitely my least favorite of Sanderson’s books so far. And I hate that we are going to have such a long wait with this cliffhanger. Having said that, it’s not completely a win for Todium. It’s a loss for Roshar, but the fact that Dalinar’s sacrifice move has gotten the attention of the other shards makes it more of a draw for Todium than an outright win. 
 

I also agree with you, but I think it’s fair to say that Dalinar got the better of Taravangian. Not only did he manage to escape the trap Taravangian set for the contest, but he managed to trigger the one thing that Taravangian didn’t want to happen. The same thing Hoid had been trying to achieve since the Way of Kings. A mobilization of the shards and other forces in the cosmere. 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Yes. It left me with a nostalgic longing. Brandon smashed something wonderful. I applaud his courage to do so. But it makes me sad. Roshar without the Highstorms is no longer Roshar.

Edited January 1, 2025 by Oltux72
typo

[christianrapper]

I don’t think that Dalinar got the best of Taravangian. He just broke his oaths and released Odium. The only reason that the other shards ignored him is because he was stuck on Roshar. That was explicitly written in the books. He could have released him without giving him Honor. Taravangian still would have had to flee once he was released. Honor didn’t immediately leave Tanovast when he betrayed Bah Ado Mishram. He could have held one Honor until after Todium fled the planet. He just made Todium twice as strong. We literally see Jasnah suggest that Dalinar release Odium in a vision in that debate. This ending just didn’t make any sense to me. I don’t mind Todium winning but at least make him earn it. Have him out smart Dalimar. Don’t have Dalimar act like a complete idiot. Sanderson took all the good guys most powerful players off the board so that Todium can win. The more I think about it the worst this book gets to me. 

[+Child of Hodor]

The ending was much more of a ... then I was expecting. I don't like thinking about how long it is until book 6.

I'd argue that despite being free Taravangian is now more constrained than he was before. He's respecting the terms of the contest despite it being nullified just to keep Honor happy. He didn't kill Gavinor even though he wanted to because it would make Honor upset. Now he is being hunted by a bunch of shards he has to be stealthy in how he acts. The sapiant honor shard is a ticking time bomb that will cause Taravangian even more problems. 

It is sort of a pyrrhic victory for Taravangian because he took up that extra shard. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Child of Hodor

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, christianrapper said:

I don’t think that Dalinar got the best of Taravangian. He just broke his oaths and released Odium. The only reason that the other shards ignored him is because he was stuck on Roshar. That was explicitly written in the books. He could have released him without giving him Honor. Taravangian still would have had to flee once he was released. Honor didn’t immediately leave Tanovast when he betrayed Bah Ado Mishram. He could have held one Honor until after Todium fled the planet. He just made Todium twice as strong. We literally see Jasnah suggest that Dalinar release Odium in a vision in that debate. This ending just didn’t make any sense to me. I don’t mind Todium winning but at least make him earn it. Have him out smart Dalimar. Don’t have Dalimar act like a complete idiot. Sanderson took all the good guys most powerful players off the board so that Todium can win. The more I think about it the worst this book gets to me. 

Odium being free alone might not have gotten the other shard's attention. They didn't see fit to try and stop him after he killed Ambition, Mercy, and Dominion. True, they were more comfortable when he was stuck on Roshar, but Honor didn't manage to bind him to that system until some time after he came there.  We see that in the chapters from Tanavast's perspective.  On the other hand, now that he has twice the power, they can't afford to ignore him any longer.  It's like when May, Adolin, and Yanagon were playing towers together. Yanagon was the strongest at first, so the most logical strategy was for May and Adolin to team up. Dalinar sacrificed himself to create that situation. Only in this case, there are ten other shards for Odium to deal with.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, christianrapper said:

He could have released him without giving him Honor. Taravangian still would have had to flee once he was released. Honor didn’t immediately leave Tanovast when he betrayed Bah Ado Mishram. He could have held one Honor until after Todium fled the planet.

That's not possible for Dalinar. Tanavast was Honor's Vessel for thousands of years before his death, he kept it under his control and actively fought it to make it stay with him for a little longer. Since Tanavast's death, the power of Honor was so distrustful of people that it refused to accept any new Vessel, fearing they would break their Oaths like Tanavast did. Dalinar had no experience in keeping the power of the Shard under his control, was too fresh of a Vessel to even try keeping it under his control and he didn't break just one Oath, he broke them all. On top of that, Honor was sentient at this point, it had a mind of its own. There was no way for him to keep Honor with him for any second longer. Plus, Taravangian wasn't planning on going anywhere when released - he wanted to stay on Roshar and raise his army.

Dalinar's gamble required Taravangian to gain the Shard of Honor. only then would other Shards react to the danger Odium poses. Free Odium alone was not enough for them to act, they had ignored him in the past when he was killing Shards, they would have ignored him again. And Odium itself was already wounded from his battles with Ambition and Honor - alone he wasn't as big of a threat to others and was not enough to force them to unite. Forcing Taravangian to pick up sentient Honor made him the biggest threat in the entire Cosmere, the worst possible scenario happened. Every Shard was forced to take actions and it changed all of Taravangain's plans. He was planning to stay on Roshar and build his army for centuries before attacking other Shards - he couldn't do it because other Shards would have attacked him on Roshar so he was forced to leave Roshar and hide. Moreover, Honor has a mind of his own now, he's already forcing Taravangian to do things he wasn't going to do, like respecting already broken Oaths. The power of Honor also questions his reasoning about treating Gavinor - it is learning what's right and wrong, which in the future will be restraining Taravangian much more than he realizes. He might be a step away from becoming impotent like Harmony is. Taravangian didn't just become twice as powerful, he's now bound to Honor and restricted by what a sentient Shard thinks is right - he gained freedom and lost it at the same moment. 

2 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Have him out smart Dalimar.

Taravangian did it. He chose Gavinor as his champion, he conquered most of Roshar before the contest and showed Dalinar that no matter if Dalinar wins the contest or loses it, Taravangian has already won everything. 

[BinarySecond]

20 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Dalinar got the better of Taravangian

I thought the end of this book was monumental.

Dalinar truly outwitted almost everyone setting him up to a No-Win scenario. Taravangian in absolute shambles; he lost militarily, and philosophically.

I truly believe Cultivation wanted this outcome; she's left behind a few key pieces that can help but she was absolutely sick of Roshar and Honour+Odium.

Edited December 30, 2024 by BinarySecond

[Letryx13]

48 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Taravangian did it. He chose Gavinor as his champion, he conquered most of Roshar before the contest and showed Dalinar that no matter if Dalinar wins the contest or loses it, Taravangian has already won everything. 

I don't know if I agree with that. Taravangian thought he'd set up the perfect scenario, where no matter what happened he ended up with everything. But not only did Dalinar manage to find another option, a callback to their conversation about a chapter in the Way of Kings, he managed to force Taravangian into a situation he didn't want to be in. Yes, Taravangian won most of Roshar and his freedom, but the attention he got in the process will likely cost him in the end.

39 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

I thought the end of this book was monumental.

Dalinar truly outwitted almost everyone setting him up to a No-Win scenario. Taravangian in absolute shambles; he lost militarily, and philosophically.

I truly believe Cultivation wanted this outcome; she's left behind a few key pieces that can help but she was absolutely sick of Roshar and Honour+Odium.

Agreed. Frustrating in a lot of ways, but monumental.

I wouldn't say Taravangian is in shambles, but he's definitely not in the position he was hoping for. All because he wants power far more than he's ever acknowledged.

I doubt very much that Cultivation wanted this.  She was hoping that Taravangian would be willing to make the right choice and end the conflict, then tried to force him to make the right choice. Most likely she still has some cards to play, Lyft for example, but this isn't what she was hoping for.

[Aredor]

Quote

"Rarely, the wise will also seek—in loss—to flip the board and scatter the pieces. But if you do this, it is likely the last time you will play. This also is not an adage for towers."

This is exactly what Dalinar did here. Was it a bad choice? Maybe, but every other option was worse. If he'd killed Gav, the war still would have continued for a thousand years. If he'd let Gav kill him, then that's kind of the same thing. Both options were worse than flipping the board. 

[+robardin he/him]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. It left me with a nostalgic longing. Brandom smashed something wonderful. I applaud his courage to do so. But it makes me sad. Roshar without the Highstorms is no longer Roshar.

I thought WaT was, on its own, a very good book... But this sums up why I feel a bit down.

So much of the immersive worldbuilding from the first three books is now completely torn down. Not just in the form of plot developments, e.g., "you never realized what was REALLY going on / the true backstory of the Oathpact!", but, ...

Stormfather, highstorms infusing spheres, enabling listener form changes, and driving the entire ecosystem of rockbuds and curling-up plants; will we ever find out more about the giant spindly-legged walkers in highstorms?; Shardbearers with Blade and Plate; ... Heck, the Horneater Peaks losing Cultivation's Perpendicularity is implied to have stranded a large number of Horneaters in Shadesmar (the end of TLM), and maybe the Peaks aren't as warm any more either?

As you say, it's "courage" to end all of that, and what leads in to the ultimate convergence of Cosmere worlds/storylines, but it is "smashing something wonderful".

Kind of like how Mistborn Era 1 ended the "Final Empire", except that was always presented as kind of a dystopia, but then how "Mistborn Era 2" had no more Mistborn!

There are plenty of Roshar rooted mysteries left to explore, wonder about, and look forward to, but re-reading SA 1 through 4 again will feel "nostalgic" now, like re-reading "The Final Empire", eh?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

35 minutes ago, Aredor said:

This is exactly what Dalinar did here. Was it a bad choice?

Whom for? I am sorry, but this question is almost meaningless. For the human people of Alethkar now locked up in Urithiru or under Parshendi rule it was definitely a bad choice. I am afraid I need to paraphrase Nohadon: Every decision hurts somebody.

 

[LazarusLong]

Dalinar's decision was 100% dumb and the book does not convince me otherwise. As an analogy, let me take you to an alternate version of the American Civil War. Near the start, Abraham Lincoln realizes that the South is strong and there will be great bloodshed on both sides if they fight, and the South will be able to gain too much strength if he seeks peace. So instead, Lincoln names Jefferson Davis as his vice-president and kills himself, making the entirety of the United States turn into the Confederate States. Lincoln justifies this by saying that the other European powers will now get involved and defeat the Confederacy for him. And the author stand-in character says this was very smart for Lincoln to do.

Dalinar was dumb, and I would have been happy with an ending where our expectations got subverted and Dalinar lost because he was dumb. But What I'm not happy with is this attempt to gaslight readers into thinking that Dalinar was not in fact dumb. Wit was right originally, dalinar was an idiot. Then Sanderson's author insert powers took over and dumbed down Hoid.

[Soccorro]

1 hour ago, LazarusLong said:

But What I'm not happy with is this attempt to gaslight readers into thinking that Dalinar was not in fact dumb. 

I also didn’t like Hoid chapter. I was shocked when I read the end of Dalinar v Taravangian confrontation because Dalinar’s actions were nonsensical and then I got Hoid chapter where BS spoon feeds Dalinar’s so-called genius plan to readers through Hoid and tries to convince me that it was right decision to make. When the plan is impossible to understand without author’s far fetched explanation I don’t know what to say

[Lord Ruler Sylphrena He/Him]

50 minutes ago, LazarusLong said:

Dalinar's decision was 100% dumb and the book does not convince me otherwise. As an analogy, let me take you to an alternate version of the American Civil War. Near the start, Abraham Lincoln realizes that the South is strong and there will be great bloodshed on both sides if they fight, and the South will be able to gain too much strength if he seeks peace. So instead, Lincoln names Jefferson Davis as his vice-president and kills himself, making the entirety of the United States turn into the Confederate States. Lincoln justifies this by saying that the other European powers will now get involved and defeat the Confederacy for him. And the author stand-in character says this was very smart for Lincoln to do.

Dalinar was dumb, and I would have been happy with an ending where our expectations got subverted and Dalinar lost because he was dumb. But What I'm not happy with is this attempt to gaslight readers into thinking that Dalinar was not in fact dumb. Wit was right originally, dalinar was an idiot. Then Sanderson's author insert powers took over and dumbed down Hoid.

That's a bad comparison, your sense of scale is wrong. Imagine if Abraham Lincoln was given the choice between killing everyone in the USA or letting the Confederates secede and hoping they abandon slavery/rejoin on their own. Also Dalinar didn't surrender any territory to Odium the planet was already 90% conquered and it would have just been Azir, Alethkar and Herdaz (Maybe Shinovar it's status was a little unclear) that stayed independent even if they did win. Retribution straight up has to flee Roshar and the people he has left in charge might not be entirely loyal to him. It was between letting a genius schemer have 70% control of a planet with access to the most powerful magic in the Cosmere hands down and give him time to match or exceed the technological level of the other planets to reinforce his advantage. Oduim would definitely have no qualms micro managing Roshar and given them access to all the tech that the other shards refused to share with their own planets. Also without Oduim becoming Retribution the other shards would probably consider him as much of a threat as Autonomy and would let themselves get taken out 1 by 1 (Nobody helped Harmony when Scadrial was about to be wiped out). It's fine for you to disagree the other Shards probably have the same opinion as you but we were given a pretty good explanation as to why this was the right move and I find all the hate quite silly. At the end of the day it doesn't matter though a book for everyone is a book for no one and this book was my favorite in the series hands down. DALINAR KHOLIN IS THE GOAT and this ending was a great mixup from HoA.

[Ripheus23]

I had a long while ago assumed/guessed that the "logical way" for Sanderson to develop the SA saga and the Cosmere saga together, here, would mean giving Honor to Odium. I didn't have much of a good idea as to the details of how this would bind Odium, I had some crackpot theory about manipulating the fused Shard into creating and thereby Investing in a new planet so that it would be stuck there instead, but I did think that it made narrative sense to use the Sazed/Harmony scenario as a trope internal to this cosmere storyline, except then to subvert it by switching out "the protagonist takes two Shards to save the day" with "the protagonist gives a second Shard to an already-evil Vessel to save the day."

You can think of it like having to "do the math" in a more specific magic system, only in this case the thing is that Sanderson has to work out the workings of the inter-Shardic system, which poses the immediate "danger" of fourth-wall-weakening if not handled correctly. Like, on the one hand, it seems like the Shards can enchant whole planets in direct and indirect ways, giving rise to magic systems where things like the "fuel" and "form" and so on vary so much, so how can the inter-Shardic system be itself subject to almost any non-trivial restrictions as such? On the other hand, there are the narrative meta-laws of the magic systems, the story-telling reasons for developing them in a particular way. Don't make magic the answer to the major problems if the system is too powerful: make the magic, or even its very system, into the problem. Surgebinding/Radiance/etc. are staggeringly OP in a lot of ways in a sub-galaxy with a ton of potentially OP magic systems, so doesn't that give Sanderson a reason to do things like have major characters forswear their oaths, etc. in order to resolve the local plotline, which has reached only the intermission after all? Honor and Odium were both the problem, because of the powers they gave the other characters. So, to set up the back half, and other cosmere stuff, wouldn't Sanderson kind of like have to have Honor and Odium merge in a context where oath-breaking/being-unoathed is emphasized for the protagonists?

You might also think of it as Sanderson being genre-savvy in the way of drawing inspiration from many fantasy series, including LOTR, where getting rid of the final power in the story was the key plot point. This happened in the second Covenant series, too, when he gives his OP wedding ring to the god of evil. I think I've read that Sanderson is confirmed to have read some of the Covenant novels, and I'm pretty sure the Ryshadium were inspired in part by the Ranyhyn from those, so applying that information, and with the sacrifice-the-power scene being at the closest thing to an "intermission" in that series, too, I could see Sanderon thinking stuff like, "Well, the LOTR and Covenant narratives made pretty good internal sense, they're even some of the reasons why I came up with the narrative laws for my magic systems, so to apply the philosophical trope/theme underlying those stories, to this one, hmm..." and realizing that at least one plausible solution would be having the Shard of Honor given over to the Shard of Odium. I will admit that I had no precise expectation of who would do the giving, but having it be Dalinar in rough conjunction with one of his sons helping atone for the sin of Honor's first Vessel and his other son enduring his (the other son's) weakness by finding a means of taking up empowered armor first, then a Shardblade... It was the furthest thing from my mind, as I read the W&T Sanderlanche, that Sanderson had randomly stumbled into these scenes. It all clicked way too perfectly for me to think that. Even specific word choices, like "Retribution" as the name of the new super-evil, fit the inspirational background (e.g. the evil god in the Covenant novels is consistently, deeply portrayed as punishment-minded).

I should admit this too, though, I guess, then: at first, while actually reading that part of the book, I thought Dalinar really was just going to take up Honor and at least stalemate the situation. I mean, I was "praying" that he would give the Shard to Taravangian, I wanted my crackpot theory to come true, and I almost didn't even believe it when the one part of it at least happened. So I'm probably way biased in favor of this book 

[christianrapper]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

Taravangian did it. He chose Gavinor as his champion, he conquered most of Roshar before the contest and showed Dalinar that no matter if Dalinar wins the contest or loses it, Taravangian has already won everything. 

Taravangian didn’t do anything. He only was able to choose Gav because Dalinar went to the spiritual realm for what eventually turned out to be absolutely no reason.  Todium also was only able to conquer most of the world because of that spiritual realm side quest. Taravangian didn’t out smart Dalinar. It’s not like he tricked Dalinar into going there. Gav snuck in with Liift at the wrong time. Todium had nothing to do with that or the Ghostbloods being there at the wrong time for Dalinar. He also had nothing to do with the winnd runners acting like complete morons and letting the captured ghost bloods escape. Todium had Mary Sue type luck in this book. 

9 hours ago, LazarusLong said:

Dalinar's decision was 100% dumb and the book does not convince me otherwise. As an analogy, let me take you to an alternate version of the American Civil War. Near the start, Abraham Lincoln realizes that the South is strong and there will be great bloodshed on both sides if they fight, and the South will be able to gain too much strength if he seeks peace. So instead, Lincoln names Jefferson Davis as his vice-president and kills himself, making the entirety of the United States turn into the Confederate States. Lincoln justifies this by saying that the other European powers will now get involved and defeat the Confederacy for him. And the author stand-in character says this was very smart for Lincoln to do.

Dalinar was dumb, and I would have been happy with an ending where our expectations got subverted and Dalinar lost because he was dumb. But What I'm not happy with is this attempt to gaslight readers into thinking that Dalinar was not in fact dumb. Wit was right originally, dalinar was an idiot. Then Sanderson's author insert powers took over and dumbed down Hoid.

I don’t get why people are doing mental gymnastics to make any of Dalinar’s decisions in this book make sense. After book 4 he was in a position of strength. In 10 days he managed to squander all of that away. Sanderson turned Dalinar into a complete moron in one book. He sent all of his best fighters except Adolin away on side quests. He goes to the spiritual realm which deprives his armies of stormlight. Then he sacrifices himself so that Todium can’t use him, but that too was pointless. Somehow Taravangian was able to find a fake spiritual realm version of him and was able to use that. That’s some crappy writing. Imo book 5 just made everything that Dalinar did in books 1-4 completely worthless. Elhokar would have done a better job than Dalinar. Sanderson could have Taravangian win without turning all the good guys into idiots. 

[MagicMaggot]

For me the book mostly gave me a direction to look for what would be happening in the second arc, and how it would be different from the first. And I am perfectly content with the result. I can see the personal conflicts that can make for some interesting character arcs in Renarin, Jasnah, Adolin, Lift and most the Heralds, for example. I am already kind of hyped to explore the political and economical changes on Roshar, and I can see how the new situation could make groups like the Listeners (and their Willshapers!) so much more interesting than they were. I really want to see the characters explore the new possibilities and restrictions that Retribution's emergence brought to the magic of Roshar. I am interested in what form of conflict the renewed cosmere attention will bring to Roshar, and how they will get to a level where they can stand up to guns and golem armies. Waiting for more than half a decade is a downer for sure, but at least I trust this author to keep to something close to that schedule, and I have waited longer for less (and it isn't like I won't hopefully enjoy Ghostbloods and Elantris while waiting). 

So no, this book didn't really change my perspective on the series. I am as interested to see what happens next as ever. 

I mean, I agree that this wasn't the best SA book. And looking at how much it tried to set up for the next one, I don't think it ever could have been. But once again... I've waded through much, much, much worse middle-of-the-series slumps that were too busy setting up the next book than this. This one was at least still quite a fun read to me. I was never bored, some of the character arcs missed, but some hit me quite well, and I saw nothing that would me doubt the author's ability to deliver in the future. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by MagicMaggot

[Nitpicking]

2 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

I mean, I agree that this wasn't the best SA book. And looking at how much it tried to set up for the next one, I don't think it ever could have been. But once again... I've waded through much, much, much worse middle-of-the-series slumps that were too busy setting up the next book than this. This one was at least still quite a fun read to me. I was never bored, some of the character arcs missed, but some hit me quite well, and I saw nothing that would me doubt the author's ability to deliver in the future. 

You raise a good point. It probably isn't possible to judge this book fairly for 20 years or so . (My prediction is that the SA won't finish for 20 years.)

[AlmightyGir]

Quote

Did book 5 affect your feelings of the whole series?

No.

[Sedside she/her]

21 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Taravangian didn’t do anything. He only was able to choose Gav because Dalinar went to the spiritual realm for what eventually turned out to be absolutely no reason.

And only because neither Stormfather, nor Cultivation didn't want to just storming tell Dalinar all of this for totally ridiculous reasons looking like an excuse so we could have Dalinar in the Spiritual Realm.

[christianrapper]

On 12/30/2024 at 8:48 AM, Letryx13 said:

Odium being free alone might not have gotten the other shard's attention. They didn't see fit to try and stop him after he killed Ambition, Mercy, and Dominion. True, they were more comfortable when he was stuck on Roshar, but Honor didn't manage to bind him to that system until some time after he came there.  We see that in the chapters from Tanavast's perspective.  On the other hand, now that he has twice the power, they can't afford to ignore him any longer.  It's like when May, Adolin, and Yanagon were playing towers together. Yanagon was the strongest at first, so the most logical strategy was for May and Adolin to team up. Dalinar sacrificed himself to create that situation. Only in this case, there are ten other shards for Odium to deal with.

Honestly, I don’t even understand why Odium originally stayed on Roshar to begin with. Why didn’t he just leave and find another planet? Was it to get revenge on Honor? There were two other shards on Roahar. I am going to have to find those chapters and reread them. I must have either missed or forgotten something. We had so many flashbacks. Then we had the Sormfather’s/Tanovast’s flashbacks which made everything that the Stormfather ever said a lie. He literally said that he didn’t remember everything and that he didn’t control Dalinar’s visions. However, he remembered everything that Tanner did and his thoughts. 

[alder24]

23 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Taravangian didn’t do anything. He only was able to choose Gav because Dalinar went to the spiritual realm for what eventually turned out to be absolutely no reason.

Striking deals and using his agents to secure 90% of Roshar behind the coalition's back is nothing to you? 

If not for Gav, Taravangian would have chosen any other innocent person whom Dalinar also wouldn't have been willing to kill - Gav was just cherry on top. The contest wasn't about the fight, it was about philosophy and morality and Taravangian outsmarted Dalinar on this field. WaT ch 137:

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Gavinor was crying. It was such a cheap trick, to use him as a pawn—but at the same time, Dalinar understood the greater message here. Taravangian could have used some unnamed innocent just as easily, as this wasn’t about whether or not Dalinar was the better fighter. It was to force him to agree, one way or another, with Taravangian.
Kill Gav, and Taravangian’s philosophy proved correct. Walk away, and Dalinar would be forced to join him in advancing that philosophy anyway.

The contest was literally the same problem Taravangian and Dalinar discussed in OB - Nohadon's problem with 4 people, among which one was a criminal but nobody knew who he was. Taravangian chose to kill them all, Dalinar chose to release them all as for him hurting even one innocent person was unacceptable. This is the same moral dilemma Taravangian had presented Dalinar with. Gav being Odium's champion didn't matter at all, Taravangian did it for drama, it was all about forcing Dalinar to kill one innocent person, which would prove Taravangian's right. Any innocent person.

Dalinar's trip to the Spiritual Realm was absolutely necessary for him to Ascend to Honor. Without it, he wouldn't have been able to understand Honor and Ascend to it, which allowed him to find a third way out of this problem and checkmate Taravangian in the end. This wouldn't have worked if someone just told him all of this, he had to live through this to understand Honor. I don't know why people are so confused about it when it was presented so clearly in the book. WaT ch 139:

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He did. He fixated on the power’s perspective, watching Tanavast betray it time and time again. He took to heart the lessons of his realm: that in this case, the destination wasn’t about a place, but about a Connection. It was about who you had become, not about where you arrived.
The power surrounded him, and he slammed his hands together, opening a perpendicularity. Then he spoke to Honor the most important Words he might ever say. Words that only worked if he could say them truly.
“I understand you.”

 

23 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Todium also was only able to conquer most of the world because of that spiritual realm side quest.

Even if Dalinar was present this whole time, he wouldn't have been able to do anything to prevent secret talks between leaders of nations and Taravangian. There was nothing he could have done to stop them from switching sides in secret. Even Fen switched sides.

23 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Somehow Taravangian was able to find a fake spiritual realm version of him and was able to use that.

I agree with you here, I don't like this. 

40 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

Honestly, I don’t even understand why Odium originally stayed on Roshar to begin with. Why didn’t he just leave and find another planet? Was it to get revenge on Honor? There were two other shards on Roahar.

That's the reason. He wanted to kill them. Rayse's goal was to become the sole god in Cosmere and he wanted to do it by Splintering all other Shards. He went to Roshar because Honor and Cultivation settled there together, which gave him a weakness to use against them and also to raise an army, because his direct fight with Ambition weakened him too much and he was trying to find an indirect way to attack other Shards - with an army. 

And Cultivation threatened to gather other Shards and deal with Rayse, like they did with Adonalsium, if he were to leave Roshar. WaT ch 113:

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“DO IT, RAYSE,” KOR SAID WITH HER DRACONIC VOICE, “OR I WILL GATHER THE OTHERS AND YOU WILL BE DEALT WITH AS ADONALSIUM WAS.”
THE THREAT LOOMED. HE SEEMED TO WEIGH FIGHTING RIGHT THERE, BUT HE KNEW HE WOULD LOSE. THE PLANET MIGHT DIE, BUT HE WOULD LOSE.

 

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Valhalla (paraphrased)

Did Odium Splinter all the Shards for the same reason?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Some Shards he Splintered because he feared the Shard itself, and some Shards he targeted because he feared the Vessel. He was working his way down his list in order of the Shards and Vessels he felt would be most dangerous to his plans until he got stuck on Roshar.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2016)