Scadrial vs. Roshar post KoW

[Immortal Platypus]

39 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Yes, but Scadrial has the industrial capacity to make planes far faster than you can make radiants or fused. During ww1, the United States produced about 15,000 planes. During ww2, they produced 295,959 aircraft. 300,000 biplanes would most likely kill all the Skybreakers/Heavenly Ones

we don't need to produce more Radiants or Fused. They can heal, and thus, not die. Also, Focused Ones could probably act as low range AA guns. And the US is significantly larger, and has significantly more resources (to my understanding) than the Basin. The Everstorm would also make flying planes on Roshar quite tricky.

Quote

They mentioned in the book that they were only a few months away, and they recovered all the Set's stuff

With Autonomy's (or at least, her Avatar's) direct intervention they got that far. The last little while would likely take longer than the first part, especially because presumably no one there actually knows how it works.

Quote

Fair, but you have to remember, bullets are not the only things they have. Scadrial has dynamite and artillery, which would most likely destroy the fused.

kill? Maybe, depending on how fast they heal. Destroy? nope, they'd be back. they're not bound on Braize.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

we don't need to produce more Radiants or Fused. They can heal, and thus, not die. 

Two issues with this, aluminum bullets and unless the battle is specifically happening on Roshar, limited Investiture 

[ALAKA]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

And as of TLM, Scadrial lacks all of the knowledge to build nukes.

Scadrial is c1900 (submachine guns, electric lights), so it's about 45 years away. Unless their physics knowledge is underdeveloped? Do we have indicators of that?

Roshar has observed some weird observation phenomena with spren which sound quantumy - but they're certainly behind (and quantum physics isn't what you need for a nuke AFAIK)

[Immortal Platypus]

58 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Two issues with this, aluminum bullets and unless the battle is specifically happening on Roshar, limited Investiture 

My point is that either side will hold their planet, but not take the other. So if I talk about benefits for Roshar, it's probably in the event of Scadrial attacking Roshar. I think that's more likely anyway. Also, can Radiants not heal from aluminum weapons? Is that confirmed? I thought that gold Mistings could, so assumed Radiants can too.

56 minutes ago, ALAKA said:

Scadrial is c1900 (submachine guns, electric lights), so it's about 45 years away. Unless their physics knowledge is underdeveloped? Do we have indicators of that?

Roshar has observed some weird observation phenomena with spren which sound quantumy - but they're certainly behind (and quantum physics isn't what you need for a nuke AFAIK)

They do have light/anti-light which can be used for very large bombs. not nukes, but potentially of similar destructive capacity. and Scadrial has Harmonium and some Trellium, which accomplish similar effects.

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

Also, can Radiants not heal from aluminum weapons? Is that confirmed? I thought that gold Mistings could, so assumed Radiants can too

Brandon hasn't canonized it in a book yet, but he has said that aluminum interferes with Investiture based healing 

[Immortal Platypus]

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Brandon hasn't canonized it in a book yet, but he has said that aluminum interferes with Investiture based healing 

Do you have the WOB?

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

A single lashing could take out a plane. Because of the way they fly, a single Lashing, changing gravity (or a half Lashing removing it) would take them out of the contest. If any get caught, they're in trouble. And some will get caught. Their planes would get whittled down until there aren't enough for their purposes. Reverse Lashings would also affect them, making it quite dangerous to fly if there are Windrunners in the area.

Yes, but as I said planes don't have to fight with Fused/Skybreakers (Windrunners are stuck in Urithiru). With modern industry they can outproduce their losses and send hundreds or thousands of planes while there is only a very limited amount of Rosharan flying units that simply can't be everywhere at once. Sending planes where there are no Fused/Skybreakers will guarantee no losses. 

EDIT:

Considering that at first planes were made mostly out of wood and cloth, it seems that they would indeed be susceptible to Lashings. However aluminum was still a main metal used in airplane construction and as soon as in 1915, Germany made a first full metal plane with its fuselage made out of aluminum - they would be fully immune not only to Lashings but also to Shardblades. 

18 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

The Set's rocket didn't work. And that was with an Avatar of Autonomy's help.

The big one didn't work (because it was a decoy), smaller did but were not capable of delivering such a gigantic payload to Elendel. Smaller tactical bombs would fit on smaller rockets. The Basin now has all of Set's notes and scientists, they can improve them. TLM ch 55:

Quote

They’d sailed out into the ocean to run tests. But the rockets had failed, or at least they hadn’t performed to desired levels. They couldn’t quite reach Elendel—though the notebook was full of ideas to get them to go the little farther they needed.

 

16 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

The Everstorm would also make flying planes on Roshar quite tricky.

The Everstorm is spreaded too far and that makes it weak, it's basically just a rain with some wind now. Not ideal conditions for flying but not terrible either. WaT ch 147:

Quote

Adolin. The Everstorm blanketed the entire land—not as violent as it had been at times, true, but pervasive. It seemed that in expanding it to the entire continent, Odium had been forced to let it weaken. It was wind and rain, mostly, with little lightning.

 

15 hours ago, ALAKA said:

and quantum physics isn't what you need for a nuke AFAIK

Oh, you need it very much.

 

14 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

My point is that either side will hold their planet, but not take the other.

Agreed.

14 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

Also, can Radiants not heal from aluminum weapons? Is that confirmed? I thought that gold Mistings could, so assumed Radiants can too.

Yes, healing can't be done around aluminum. 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Edited December 19, 2024 by alder24

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

Would Fused who are defeated off-world still be able to be regenerated? Is the Everstorm bound to Roshar?

If Roshar gets to bring a source of light and has a never-ending supply of soldiers I don't think there is much the Scadrians can do about it.

[Qianweilian He/him]

27 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Would Fused who are defeated off-world still be able to be regenerated? Is the Everstorm bound to Roshar?

If Roshar gets to bring a source of light and has a never-ending supply of soldiers I don't think there is much the Scadrians can do about it.

Here's what they get to do about it: guns

[Immortal Platypus]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The Everstorm is spreaded too far and that makes it weak, it's basically just a rain with some wind now. Not ideal conditions for flying but not terrible either. WaT ch 147:

Yes, but I feel like Retribution could remove it from most of the planet (like he did for Azir), and make it stronger, like the original Everstorm. He could also probably bring highstorms back, making it even worse for flying. In addition, even if neither of these things happen, scadrians wouldn't be experienced pilots and wouldn't have all the tech we do today. Flying in stormy weather was typically not done in that time-frame because it was dangerous, sometimes even being grounded because of low-level clouds. Also keep in mind that in early planes you are completely exposed to the weather. The cold could be solved with medallions (in united planets) and/or natural Ferrings, but that would greatly limit how many pilots they have, thus limiting how many planes they can field at any given time. Add in the potential of losing these medallions (which could be quite dangerous if Rosharans figure them out and start using them) and/or their Ferrings, you almost don't want to field your planes at all.

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The big one didn't work (because it was a decoy), smaller did but were not capable of delivering such a gigantic payload to Elendel. Smaller tactical bombs would fit on smaller rockets. The Basin now has all of Set's notes and scientists, they can improve them. TLM ch 55:

I forgot about that one, you're right. I do think that it would take a significant amount of time to improve this design, as it took them a while to get here, and that was with the direct help of an Avatar, but they could feasibly improve, especially in a war-time economy.

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Yes, but as I said planes don't have to fight with Fused/Skybreakers (Windrunners are stuck in Urithiru). With modern industry they can outproduce their losses and send hundreds or thousands of planes while there is only a very limited amount of Rosharan flying units that simply can't be everywhere at once. Sending planes where there are no Fused/Skybreakers will guarantee no losses. 

EDIT:

Considering that at first planes were made mostly out of wood and cloth, it seems that they would indeed be susceptible to Lashings. However aluminum was still a main metal used in airplane construction and as soon as in 1915, Germany made a first full metal plane with its fuselage made out of aluminum - they would be fully immune not only to Lashings but also to Shardblades. 

Windrunners are currently stuck in Urithiru, but they have Elsecallers (or at least one) who could take them into the CR and into the fight (once they learn how to use Elsegates). Alternatively, in a united planets situation, you could use Dai Gonarthis.

I wonder how effective reverse Lashings could be. It could seriously mess up planes, if the Lashings are close enough. Depending on the strength of the Windrunner, the amount of Light used, and the height of the plane, I expect that a reverse Lashing could affect them from the ground. This does assume that Windrunners want to help, so it may not be likely, but it is an option.

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 Yes, healing can't be done around aluminum. 

  Hide contents

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

So if the bullet remains in their skin, they can't heal, but if it leaves they can? Interesting. I would expect that some of the Fused, like the Focused Ones could just shoot it out of themselves, similar to the rocks they launch at the Shattered Plains fortifications. Now silver bullets could be quite dangerous, because I don't think Fused could get rid of them as easily.

30 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Would Fused who are defeated off-world still be able to be regenerated? Is the Everstorm bound to Roshar?

If Roshar gets to bring a source of light and has a never-ending supply of soldiers I don't think there is much the Scadrians can do about it.

they would probably be called back to Braize and return. I don't expect the Everstorm could travel to Scadrial very easily.

2 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Here's what they get to do about it: guns

guns don't help if you can't kill the people you're fighting. *cough Focused Ones cough*

[alder24]

47 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Would Fused who are defeated off-world still be able to be regenerated? Is the Everstorm bound to Roshar?

It's bound to Roshar. And they would be able to be reborn, but only on Roshar. It was very difficult for the old Odium to move his Everstorm from Braize to Roshar, moving it to Scadrial is impossible. 

48 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

If Roshar gets to bring a source of light and has a never-ending supply of soldiers I don't think there is much the Scadrians can do about it.

The light situation is now all messed up because there are no Highstorms, no Bondsmiths, you have to pray once a day to get Warlight. Not ideal. Moreover, time dilation makes everything into a nightmare for Rosharans as supplying anything to Scadrial can take years from a Scadrian perspective. A month on Roshar is a few years on Scadrial now. 

And yeah, Scadrians have guns - swords and numbers don't matter much against machine guns and artillery. 

 

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

I wonder how effective reverse Lashings could be. It could seriously mess up planes, if the Lashings are close enough. Depending on the strength of the Windrunner, the amount of Light used, and the height of the plane, I expect that a reverse Lashing could affect them from the ground. This does assume that Windrunners want to help, so it may not be likely, but it is an option.

I don't think it would be very effective. Reverse Lashing works against small projectals, planes are gigantic compared to arrows. You would need way too much investiture to affect a plane. 

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

So if the bullet remains in their skin, they can't heal, but if it leaves they can? Interesting.

Yes.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

I would expect that some of the Fused, like the Focused Ones could just shoot it out of themselves, similar to the rocks they launch at the Shattered Plains fortifications.

I doubt it because it's the belts on the outside that are doing the shooting and force stuff, bullets might break them (even if that's the only thing they could penetrate).

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

Now silver bullets could be quite dangerous, because I don't think Fused could get rid of them as easily.

Oh yeah, I wonder how silver bullets would affect healing. That's an interesting question to ask Brandon. 

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

guns don't help if you can't kill the people you're fighting. *cough Focused Ones cough*

Let me introduce you to a beautiful art - artillery!

[Qianweilian He/him]

I'd like to add that the Scadrians have Hemalurgy as well. Even though it got nerfed in TLM, Scadrial can still basically make supersoldiers. 

Also they have Kandra, which unlike Lightweavers, are pretty much undetectable.

[Immortal Platypus]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And yeah, Scadrians have guns - swords and numbers don't matter much against machine guns and artillery. 

They don't have machine guns yet, do they?

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I don't think it would be very effective. Reverse Lashing works against small projectals, planes are gigantic compared to arrows. You would need way too much investiture to affect a plane. 

It would require a lot of Investiture, but if it stops planes from flying over you and scouting, it might be worth it.

Quote

I doubt it because it's the belts on the outside that are doing the shooting and force stuff, bullets might break them (even if that's the only thing they could penetrate).

But the Focused Ones could (I assume) use Tension on themselves like they do with the belts and do the same(ish) thing.

Quote

Oh yeah, I wonder how silver bullets would affect healing. That's an interesting question to ask Brandon. 

It negates Investiture, so I think it would prevent it, just like aluminum, and it would prevent the Focused Ones from shooting the bullets back out.

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Let me introduce you to a beautiful art - artillery!

How much of that does Scadrial have? It can't be too much. If the Focused Ones could outrange it, or Heavenly Ones carry rocks and drop them on it, or anything else damages/destroys it (including potentially the Everstorm) Scadrians would be in big trouble. 

1 minute ago, Qianweilian said:

I'd like to add that the Scadrians have Hemalurgy as well. Even though it got nerfed in TLM, Scadrial can still basically make supersoldiers. 

They're not exactly experts in it. In addition, you're trading more soldiers for stronger ones, but leaving some of the power behind. not quite as useful as a "supersoldier."

Quote

Also they have Kandra, which unlike Lightweavers, are pretty much undetectable.

Pretty much undetectable is quite the overstatement. If they don't even speak any of the Rosharan languages, it would be quite difficult for them to pull off the disguise. In addition, they'd need to know all the things that they'd be expected to, which they probably wouldn't.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Ookla the Arbiter

[Qianweilian He/him]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

They're not exactly experts in it. In addition, you're trading more soldiers for stronger ones, but leaving some of the power behind. not quite as useful as a "supersoldier."

I mean, they do have the Lord Mistborn's book and Wax felt confident enough to place multiple spikes in TLM.

Also, they could use Fused or Rosharan troops for hemalurgy

Edited December 19, 2024 by Qianweilian
Clarification

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

They don't have machine guns yet, do they?

They do. TLM ch 23:

Quote

At the other end of the room, the gangsters had built a little fortification out of sandbags—and now one of them snapped a large multibarrel rotating machine gun onto a tripod. Military grade, liquid cooled and chain fed, with bullets longer than a person’s palm. Those had been developed in case of a Malwish invasion, and were illegal to smuggle out of Elendel.

 

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

But the Focused Ones could (I assume) use Tension on themselves like they do with the belts and do the same(ish) thing.

I don't think so, it looks like they can only use it on belts. Additionally, Tension is highly restricted by investiture, anything that's just a bit invested would resist it (although it may work differently for Fused as Cohesion does, maybe belts are a part of their body). Even if they could, I don't think you could use Tension to shoot bullets out of your body like that. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few?

Brandon Sanderson

...Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of The Stormlight Archive the way that I did is because I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. 

Questioner

Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers--I mean, everybody has two--but this power you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of-- like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch for that order.

Questioner

So architects or combat engineers fill that order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, stuff like that, but also, just kind of like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. 

Questioner 2

Can they do that to living flesh?

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's the general, the more Invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things... Even a small amount of extra Investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck Stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

How much of that does Scadrial have? It can't be too much. If the Focused Ones could outrange it, or Heavenly Ones carry rocks and drop them on it, or anything else damages/destroys it (including potentially the Everstorm) Scadrians would be in big trouble. 

We don't know how much, but they do have some. They also have AA guns. And they have modern industry that can easily start mass production of lots of artillery pieces, replacing every loss and more.

[StanLemon]

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

They don't have machine guns yet, do they?

They do, the Set uses them in TLM

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

It would require a lot of Investiture, but if it stops planes from flying over you and scouting, it might be worth it.

I can only really see this working at Urithiru. Reverse Lashings are pretty Investiture expensive even for smaller items

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

But the Focused Ones could (I assume) use Tension on themselves like they do with the belts and do the same(ish) thing.

Possibly. It's been implied that Dalinar’s displays of superhuman strength were because of Tension 

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

It negates Investiture, so I think it would prevent it, just like aluminum, and it would prevent the Focused Ones from shooting the bullets back out.

I wish we had more information on Silver. It's got some purification aspect to it but who knows how it might react with other Investiture 

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

How much of that does Scadrial have? It can't be too much. If the Focused Ones could outrange it, or Heavenly Ones carry rocks and drop them on it, or anything else damages/destroys it (including potentially the Everstorm) Scadrians would be in big trouble. 

Scadrial has been preparing for a cold war and a potential civil war. My guess, a lot of artillery. The Heavenly Ones might be able to do that assumingthey can be accurateat dropping boulders while staying out of rifle range, but the Focused Ones almost certainly can't out range artillery 

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

They're not exactly experts in it. In addition, you're trading more soldiers for stronger ones, but leaving some of the power behind. not quite as useful as a "supersoldier."

I agree with this. Unless Scadrial wants to start making Koloss en mass, I don't think Hemalurgy will be very effective in this war

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

Pretty much undetectable is quite the overstatement. If they don't even speak any of the Rosharan languages, it would be quite difficult for them to pull off the disguise. In addition, they'd need to know all the things that they'd be expected to, which they probably wouldn't.

Kandra are good at picking up nuance and adaptingto expected behavior, and if they can get some Medallions that would solve the communication issue. Though admittedly they probably wouldn't be too helpful in the short term

[Immortal Platypus]

22 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

I mean, they do have the Lord Mistborn's book and Wax felt confident enough to place multiple spikes in TLM.

Also, they could use Fused or Rosharan troops for hemalurgy

using Fused or Radiants for Hemalurgy would be pretty tricky. You'd need to hit an extremely mobile foe on a battlefield in a specific spot.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so, it looks like they can only use it on belts. Additionally, Tension is highly restricted by investiture, anything that's just a bit invested would resist it (although it may work differently for Fused as Cohesion does, maybe belts are a part of their body). Even if they could, I don't think you could use Tension to shoot bullets out of your body like that. 

  Hide contents

Questioner

So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few?

Brandon Sanderson

...Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of The Stormlight Archive the way that I did is because I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. 

Questioner

Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers--I mean, everybody has two--but this power you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of-- like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch for that order.

Questioner

So architects or combat engineers fill that order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, stuff like that, but also, just kind of like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. 

Questioner 2

Can they do that to living flesh?

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's the general, the more Invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things... Even a small amount of extra Investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck Stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

I got the impression that the belts were their body, similar to how Magnified Ones can make more carapace of how El replaces his carapace with metal. It could be a suit, I feel like a suit would be able to be cut by a Shardblade more easily. I think it's possible to use Tension like that, but it sure wouldn't be pleasant.

Quote

We don't know how much, but they do have some. They also have AA guns. And they have modern industry that can easily start mass production of lots of artillery pieces, replacing every loss and more.

I don't know about "easily." could it replace the losses? Probably. Would it require a war-time economy, and directing a majority of resources at the factories. Wouldn't be pleasant, but feasible.

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I can only really see this working at Urithiru. Reverse Lashings are pretty Investiture expensive even for smaller items

Urithiru or anywhere that Retribution is actively providing Light, or at the Well of Control, or the hightstorm (if Retribution allows them to return).

Quote

Possibly. It's been implied that Dalinar’s displays of superhuman strength were because of Tension 

If that's the case than Focused Ones in melee combat are even more of a nightmare.

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I wish we had more information on Silver. It's got some purification aspect to it but who knows how it might react with other Investiture 

I think there's a WOB about it negating Investiture (or something similar), but I don't have time to find it right now.

Quote

Scadrial has been preparing for a cold war and a potential civil war. My guess, a lot of artillery. The Heavenly Ones might be able to do that assumingthey can be accurateat dropping boulders while staying out of rifle range, but the Focused Ones almost certainly can't out range artillery 

I think there's a comment about how they've been doing stuff like that for millennia. Maybe in the Azimir plotline? Either that or Shattered Plains. Also, Deepest Ones would be a threat to artillery. If they can catch Scadrians off guard, that artillery is in trouble. Similar things could be done with Willshapers, who would be very dangerous; they have Transportation to get there and Cohesion to destroy the machines.

Quote

Kandra are good at picking up nuance and adaptingto expected behavior, and if they can get some Medallions that would solve the communication issue. Though admittedly they probably wouldn't be too helpful in the short term

Can Kandra use medallions? I feel like it might interfere with them somehow. And they still wouldn't know important things. They could impersonate a foot soldier reliably, but not Fused or generals, so probably not too useful. potentially still helpful though.

[therunner he/him]

On 12/18/2024 at 4:05 PM, alder24 said:

Nowhere in that moment was a machine gun mentioned. The golem was able to withstand the gun fire because it had half a jar of pure Dor to immediately heal every bits of roseite that were chopped off.

Spheres of light won't provide the same amount of investiture as a jar full of liquid Dor.

Half a jar of Dor is about 10000 BEUs. Stormlight is sufficiently investiture dense that sunlight on Canticle is directly compared to that, and based on Nightblood consumption rate, Radiants do easily move in the range of hundreds to low thousands of BEUs. So yeah, few bags of spheres do likely have comparable Investiture to half a jar of Dor.

Combine that with the fact that roseite without link to Investiture is extremely brittle, whereas Shardplate is nearly unbreakable even without Stormlight, and I would say that Roseite golem does provide a good baseline for resiliency of Plate.

And thank you for correction on the fact it was not machine guns.

Quote

That's not true, Set did it all and now with Set being wiped out, their notes and scientific documents would fall into the Basin hands. Plus Wax also has a little knowledge which would help. In TLM epilogue 7 it was said that the Basin was considering building nukes:

Not true, Set did it only with the help of Avatar, and they are only considering trellium-ettmetal bombs, not full on nukes.

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Things in the Basin are changing now. The cold war is starting, the arms race is beginning. Planes will be developed very soon. Just a reminder, the first plane was invented in 1903, not even 11 years later they were used in WW 1.

We don't know how will the things change, see how Roshar changed in only 10 days. So I won't speculate on how Basin will develop technologically, especially since they are already developing much slower than Sazed expected.

So I will only compare Roshar at the end of WAT and Scadrial at the end of TLM.

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But yes, they would be inferior to Fused/Radiants. The thing is, they don’t have to compete with them. They can still be used for scouting or bombing missions and they will certainly quickly outnumber flying units of Roshar. How many Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers are there? A few hundreds at best? They can’t be everywhere at once a a few thousands of plane created via modern industry can easily stretched Rosharan air units too thin. 

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Yes, but as I said planes don't have to fight with Fused/Skybreakers (Windrunners are stuck in Urithiru). With modern industry they can outproduce their losses and send hundreds or thousands of planes while there is only a very limited amount of Rosharan flying units that simply can't be everywhere at once. Sending planes where there are no Fused/Skybreakers will guarantee no losses. 

Yes they do have to compete with them.

WW1 plane had average speeds of at most 140 mph, Radiants and Fused are faster than that at 200 mph (and those are Rosharan miles). So planes will be slower, less maneuverable, and larger targets.

On number front, Roshar has hundreds of Skybreakers, and comparable number of Heavenly Ones.
Scadrial has zero actual planes, and they are at least decade away.

Production wise, they won't outnumber Rosharan air units anytime soon. US produced 15000 planes in WW1 over 4 years, and that is with population 100 million. Basin has one fifth of the population, and would not be protected (since until they actually start producing planes, Rosharans can do whatever they want). At most they would produce few hundred per year.

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Considering that at first planes were made mostly out of wood and cloth, it seems that they would indeed be susceptible to Lashings. However aluminum was still a main metal used in airplane construction and as soon as in 1915, Germany made a first full metal plane with its fuselage made out of aluminum - they would be fully immune not only to Lashings but also to Shardblades. 

There were few, but vast majority of planes used in WW1 were bi-planes that didn't have aluminum construction. And they don't use pure aluminum, but aluminum alloy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7075_aluminium_alloy) as aluminum is too soft on its own.

Since the alloys use for planes are at most 90% aluminum (less than duralumin), they likely won't be as resistive to Invested arts.

And again, Scadrial won't have such planes for ~15 years or so, whereas Roshar has Fused and Skybreakers now.

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Not that different, planes turn and accelerate as well. The strength of AA guns is that they cover the entire sky in explosive bullets. 

WW1 planes turn much slower than any Surgebinder, and don't accelerate continuously.
Plus, they are much smaller targets, like 20x smaller (on surface area).

AA guns are not nearly as effective, otherwise air superiority wouldn't be a thing. And importantly, they aren't everywhere and are dependent on supply lines to get bullets, which are vulnerable.

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That's not true, it was a tiniest sliver of Trellium, not a whole spike. Less than a gram considering he used only half a gram of Harmonium.

Ok, thanks for correction, To that i will only say that Roshar can produce anti light - light bombs much more easily, since they're can produce their own Investiture for them.

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Thankfully, Set once again did all the work for them and Wax took their notes. They can build rockets.

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The big one didn't work (because it was a decoy), smaller did but were not capable of delivering such a gigantic payload to Elendel. Smaller tactical bombs would fit on smaller rockets. The Basin now has all of Set's notes and scientists, they can improve them.

Set  had to abandon their plans for using them to deliver bomb, I doubt they will be as functional as you expect.

Ettmetal-trellium bombs require gigantic electric currents, you won't be able to fit appropriate generator on a small rocket. Ettmetal-trellium bombs are rather difficult to miniaturize.

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Some do. The Set, Kandra, Ghostbloods, even Wax and Marasi - there are enough people on Scadrial that have a deep understanding of Hemalurgy that can use it to be dangerous. Plus this knowledge can be easily shared with more people as the only thing needed for Hemalurgy to work is a piece of metal and a bit of insight. Future sight abilities can help with accurate placement of spikes - well, Kandra started to manufacture Atium and there are of course Oracles who can burn electrum.

None of these have any deep understanding of Hemalrugy, they are slightly beyond where TLR was. They cannot create new Hemalurgic construct, and they can only spike out powers.

They have no idea how to transfer those knowledge to a completely different species, much less that species possessed by Cognitive Shadows. Different species have different bindpoints.

Oracles won't help, knowing your future is useless in targeting spike, Atium will help, but then you have to choose, produce more Atium or develop bombs? Because you need Trellium for both, and that is limited.

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And how do you do it mid-fight? Dalinar did it. It's not that big of a deal. You can always set up a trap like Melishi did.

I must have missed the part where either Dalinar or Melishi spiked someone mid-combat.
This example is completely irrelevant.

Spiking someone mid-combat is a big deal, literally only examples we see are guided by Ruin. So no, mid-combat spiking won't happen.

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You can't ignore time dilation as that's a key component of Roshar at this moment. It's a massive problem that Rosharans have to face in their fight against Scadrians that favors Scadrial on both attack and defense. I think it’s one of the most important things in this discussion. 

Similarly, key component is the fact that Scadrial is unable to get stuff into Cognitive realm, there is only one perpendicularity, and it is not easily accessible.
Yet I don't see you discuss that key issue.

I ignore the time dilation, because taking it into account is impossible. We cannot tell what will happen on Scadrial in the meantime, and speculating on their relativ development is dangerous. I.e. in TSM, which is about 2-3 centuries into the future, Scadrial and Roshar are near peers, despite Roshar having ~80 years less time to develop.

Is it because Roshar is much faster in scientific endeavors? Or because Scadrial got slowed down? Or because Roshar started as far more militarily capable? We cannot answer any such question with any certainty, so I won't engage with them.

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No, a normal sword. WaT ch 11:

I stand corrected.

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True, but on the other hand guns are faster than thoughts. One bullet is enough to kill them. It's a risky strategy.

Eh. No they are not. You need to pull trigger (i.e. have thought) to shoot a gun, which still takes time to propagate. Hushed ones release body immediately, plus likely have improved reflexes due to being Invested (Radiants do, even on second and third Oaths).

So no, shooter won't "outdraw" Hushed one.

And one bullet won't be enough, they are still Fused and heal. Shooter would have to hit gemheart, which would be quite lucky shot on teleporting target.

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Thanks for the correction, no idea how I missed that 0 at the end of Sig's energy. As my excuse I say only that it was past midnight and I was a bit sleepy. Still, missing that 0 is embarrassing. 

As for the bullet weight, I assume it’s 0.03 kg after a very quick google search - again it was late.

You're right then, most bullets probably won't harm them, maybe some lucky shots into eyes. However I would say they will penetrate them but not very deep. They could slowly drain them out of Voidlight, but to kill them explosives or a bigger caliber is a must. Aluminum bullets however might hurt them even more - they will dig only into their skin, but prevent healing and break their belts held by tension. 

No problem, it happens.

Aluminum bullets won't break tension, they don't interrupt powers. And it is important to note, that Scadrial does not actually use pure Aluminum bullets, but some alloy. We have yet to see how that interacts with Investiture, since e.g. duralumin is regular metal as far as resisting Investiture goes, and that is ~96% aluminum.

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Do we? All three of those things are invested and Awakened clothes or ropes do not resist being cut by a normal knife at all. 

I'd say so.

All three of those are much more Invested than any Awakened clothes, and are metallic. So they are starting as more resilient and have much more Investiture to boot. 

Also, Investiture does shield living things against damage even on relatively low levels (as seen in TSM), so heavily Invested item might be similar (being Invested does count as 'alive' as seen again in TSM).

Plus, half-shards are much more resistive, and they likely use Tension, since they use Radiant spren in making, so would be comparable to Focused Ones.

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You'll be surprised, artillery in WW 1 was quite accurate. A single gun can fire several rounds per minute, there are dozens or hundreds of guns firing at one area - it guarantees hitting the Fused with that amount of fire.

It was...against stationary targets. Accurate artillery requires knowledge of terrain, and literally calculated firing solution. You won't be able to do that against moving target.

Sure, you can use multiple to just blast whole areas, but then you create juicy target for e.g. Skybreakers or Heavenly ones to bombard.

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A single artillery piece can zero in on a moving target, that's not impossible at all. 

No, they cannot. Today maybe, with computer assisted targeting, but WW1 ones? No chance.
You don't use artillery against moving targets (unless they are slow moving).

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That's irrelevant, my single point here was air superiority is not everything, you need ground forces to press that advantage. 

Air superiority isn't everything, if there are other facts that prevent it from being effective.
On Scadrial, those factors are not there.

As for ground units, Roshar has more of those by order of magnitude.

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In urban combat Mistings can also move in any direction, the difference is that Radiants/Fused can't use their superior speed because they would smash into a building. They also have to move slower to avoid g-forces due to constant twists and turns of streets (g-forces are canon in books, not in physics I know). Kaladin's fight with Leshwi at the beginning of RoW showed us that even Kaladin considered fighting low to the ground and near the people as too fast, too risky.

That's precisely why they have to go down and engage Mistings. They can stay high in the air, but by doing this Allomancers would be killing their ground troops. They need to fight them and to do that they need to go lower, where they lose many advantages of their Lashings.

No they cannot, they are still limited by present metal, that limitation will always be there.
G-forces will apply to Coinshots and Lurchers as well, and those are not Invested to heal any damage caused, nor more resilient.

 

So again, Coinshots and Lurchers are inferior to Gravitation Surgebinders in all situations, they have less control over direction and magnitude of acceleration and they are less resilient.

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How many Thunderclasts are there? Only two? And they need weeks to regenerate? Not impressive. Artillery says they're obsolete.

Three. And they need weeks to regenerate only when killed by Shardblade, otherwise they can just create new body.

So Scadrial literally cannot put them down, because they lack Invested weapons do that. Artillery won't say they are obsolete, when they spawn right next to it.

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They are a threat indeed, but they have a limited amount of jumps and are moving as a visible light. Just aim and shoot when they are appearing.

How do you aim at something that appears right behind you and immediately grapples you, like Lezien did to Kaladin?

Guns won't help you at all, Hushed Ones by their nature turn any engagement into hand-to-hand one, and there they have massive advantage.

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Kandra can do the same. Seekers can be used as guards.

Yes on Kandra.
No on Seekers, Lightweaving is quite, and so far detectable only by white sand.

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War pairs with swords against machine guns and artillery fires? Well? Not possible. Only Fused are posing a real threat here, not even Regals can compete with guns. 

You would use Fused to break weapon placements, then send in Regals. Stormform should be especially useful, with all the metal from guns.
And you would equip them with e.g. half-shards, or some armor. Their carapace is already quite strong, even Warform has carapace comparable to steel plate, Stormform carapace is stronger, and Direform stronger than even that.

Steel plate IRL is strong enough to stop even modern small arms.

So Regal armor won't stop machine gun fire, or rifles, but hand-guns likely yes.

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Good thing he's dead and others of his kind are not nearly as impressive as he was. In WaT it was also said that they are rare, a few, maybe tens at best. They can't be everywhere.

You don't need them everywhere, just send them to breakdown weapons placements, and places where Scadrians are dug in.
Or use Deepest Ones.

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One Fused is not a whole command chain, you can't expect a single person to micro-manage everything. Humans would do better but still not that good as their mindset is set in medieval tactics. They would also struggle to adapt. Our history is full of examples of tactics not adapting to technology.

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While they don't have experience, they do have an army and strategists and they have shown adaptability by developing means to defend the Basin against the Malwish. They've been arming themselves for 6 years now. They have a much better idea on how to use guns in war than Rosharans do. 

Roshar has Blackthorn, likely the best 'living' strategist and tactician in Cosmere after Mink.

They would adapt relatively fast.

Scadrian would also have to adapt to fighting Invested warriors, something that is completely unknown to them. See how poorly Azish did, and they had some knowledge and practical experience.
Single Windrunner of 3rd Oath would be revelation on par with new Mistborn appearing, and we saw how Mistborn tore through regular Mistings.

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No, it didn't. WaT ch 34:

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“Singers attack through aggression and momentum,” Adolin explained. “They’re not formation fighters—they usually flood across a battlefield in a rush, fighting in expert pairs trained to defend one another. We often have superior tactics, but each of their soldiers is stronger, tougher, and harder to kill than a human."

They would be just mowed down by machine guns. 

That is before the fight in Azir started, one where Fused did adapt rather fast, and that was commanded by Abidi (who was quite insane).

They first tried strong push, that nearly succeeded. After it was repelled by Shardbearers, they switched tactics to slowly getting control of the dome, by building their own building. When that was not proceeding fast enough, they sent for more Fused, and for a Thunderclast.
So they had two tactics, use Fused to break from inside out, or if that fails, have Thunderclast to break the dome. And they succeeded.

 

So they pivoted tactics several times.

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They aren't idiotic, but those are the same mistakes generals at the beginning of WW 1 did. They didn't realize how machine guns and artillery changed everything and were sending waves of people straight into a dense gun fire. The same will happen here. 

I am sorry, but that is rather large misconception about WW1.  You don't have to be military genius to realize after one engagement that running at machine gun without fire is idiotic, and general in WW1 did know that.

However, on western front they got stuck in trench warfare, where often the only way to make progress was to push against e.g. machine guns and artillery. They did those because they didn't have other options for progress. But Fused do, they can send in Husked Ones or Masked ones, or Focused Ones. Or use Skybreakers and Heavenly Ones to destroy artillery and machine gun nests from air.

The only way this would happen is if somehow this became a trench war, but very nature of Fused prevents that. You don't get stuck in trench if you can easily send troops beyond enemy lines.

23 hours ago, StanLemon said:

And on the subject of nukes, sure they don't have literal nukes but they do have WMDs

Hoid makes a whole point in RoW about how antiquated war tactics of Roshar are inferior to modern technology. The only hope Roshar had is their vastly larger manpower and Fuzed. But those numbers might not even mean much when a single bomb can obliterate thousands of Rosharan soldiers

Roshar is also capable of creating such bombs now, and much more easily that Scadrial.

Plus, unlike Scadrial, they will have easier time delivering them, thanks to air superiority.

18 hours ago, ALAKA said:

Scadrial is c1900 (submachine guns, electric lights), so it's about 45 years away. Unless their physics knowledge is underdeveloped? Do we have indicators of that?

Roshar has observed some weird observation phenomena with spren which sound quantumy - but they're certainly behind (and quantum physics isn't what you need for a nuke AFAIK)

Well, they did take century longer than expected to discover radio, so they are proceeding about 2/3 as fast. That would put nukes nearly 70 years away.

They also seem to lack full theory of electromagnetism, which would put their physics more in-line with 1880s.

And yes, quantum physics is very much needed for nukes, along with special relativity.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Everstorm is spreaded too far and that makes it weak, it's basically just a rain with some wind now. Not ideal conditions for flying but not terrible either. WaT ch 147:

Retribution still controls Everstorm, he could intensify it.

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Agreed.

Yes, healing can't be done around aluminum. 

While true, Scadrial is not using pure aluminum for bullets, likely lessening this effect.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The light situation is now all messed up because there are no Highstorms, no Bondsmiths, you have to pray once a day to get Warlight. Not ideal.

Fused also get Light from Song of Prayer, this likely still functions.

Plus, the entire discussion so far ignores Fabrials. How about AoE painrials? Combine field effect of suppresor with painrial (optionally use aluminum for directional effect).
Drop this on Scadrian positions, and you have them out of combat.

[Argenti he/him]

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

Retribution still controls Everstorm, he could intensify it.

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As far I can tell, the only reason it's weak is because Retribution wants  it to be. It's not weak or spread out, it's just weakened because he doesn't want to kill everyone. Not quickly at least.

[therunner he/him]

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

As far I can tell, the only reason it's weak is because Retribution wants  it to be. It's not weak or spread out, it's just weakened because he doesn't want to kill everyone. Not quickly at least.

That is likely. Frankly it is well within power of a Shard to have Highstorm-level Everstorm across entire continent, and there is no other Shard in the system restricting him.

I'll still assume he can only intensify it in small areas to err on side of caution, simply because that is something certain from evidence available.

[Argenti he/him]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

That is likely. Frankly it is well within power of a Shard to have Highstorm-level Everstorm across entire continent, and there is no other Shard in the system restricting him.

I'll still assume he can only intensify it in small areas to err on side of caution, simply because that is something certain from evidence available.

Yeah I see no reason he wouldn't be able to. It's also worth saying that Retribution could just kill any scadrial that steps foot into the roshar system, he can smite now. Harmony can not, since he's so divided. Discord might be able to, but that's a whole different beast.

[StanLemon]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Yeah I see no reason he wouldn't be able to. It's also worth saying that Retribution could just kill any scadrial that steps foot into the roshar system, he can smite now. Harmony can not, since he's so divided. Discord might be able to, but that's a whole different beast.

Counterpoint, Retribution is trying to hide from the other Shards and not actively monitoring Roshar

[Argenti he/him]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Counterpoint, Retribution is trying to hide from the other Shards and not actively monitoring Roshar

Which would probably change if roshar got invaded.

[therunner he/him]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Counterpoint, Retribution is trying to hide from the other Shards and not actively monitoring Roshar

While true, he is present enough to enforce everstorm, and use ti to grant light to those who ask.
So he is monitoring it to some extent.

Also, if we start bringing in other Shards, we have to ask ourselves how will Autonomy exploit situation on Scadrial? And we know they will, since that will be large part of plot in Era 3. So i think we best leave them out of it.

[Qianweilian He/him]

This makes me start wondering if Harmony's intent will allow him to act to permit balance, or if he straight up can't really act.

If it's the former, than I could see him defending Scadrial, but also leaving Roshar alone..