Scadrial vs. Roshar post KoW

[NameIess]

This post was made at the behest of @Frustration, who is currently absent from the Shard.

There's another book out, so that means it's time to begin this debate again! How do you think the events of KoW affect the Scadrial vs. Roshar dynamic? Considering that the Stormfather's dead and Stormlight no longer exists to power Radiants, I'd say it changes things quite substantially.

To kick things off, here's how I see it.

First of all, nothing's really changed in the Radiant vs. Mistborn debate. We did see more of Division, but it doesn't seem to be too dangerous against a Mistborn considering it's most potent use requires touch, a very bad idea against someone who can leach your Stormlight. If the Mistborn has access to all sixteen metals, coins, and a pair of aluminum daggers and the Radiant gets their weapon of choice (for Radiants below the third ideal) and a normal amount of Stormlight, these are my opinions:

A Radiant of the Second Ideal or a squire will have an even to losing matchup against the Mistborn, depending on Order. Elsecallers and perhaps Lightweavers could potentially take the Mistborn by surprise from the Cognitive realm, but the Mistborn can hard counter any order by a sneak attack leeching, so that's mostly a moot point.

A Radiant of the Third Ideal has a even to winning matchup depending on Order. The more combat focused orders will have an advantage, while the others will be pretty even.

Fourth Ideal and above, the Radiant has a winning matchup. Shardplate is just too strong in a straight-up fight.

the Mistborn can of course kill a Radiant of any ideal by sneaking up, leeching them, then stabbing them. Assuming they're not noticed.

 

Now, onto the fun part: Scadrial vs. Roshar. Who wins in a war between the worlds? Since Roshar's currently experiencing time dilation, let's go with a few scenarios:

Scenario #1: War between end of Era 2 Scadrial and immediately post-KoW Roshar. No Return, and we'll assume that Azir and Urithiru won't interfere.

Scenario #2: War between Roshar and Scadrial immediately after the time dilation ends. We'll have to speculate a lot on this, but that's our specialty, right? Also no interference from Azir or Urithiru.

Scenario #3: War between Roshar and Scadrial after the time dilation ends, with whatever interference you speculate would happen from Azir, Urithiru, and any other peoples free from Retribution's control.

[alder24]

Oh no, I don't know if I'm ready for this. Without Frustration it's not the same  

I think everything changed because Radiants are essentially out of the equation now. No Bondsmiths, most Radiants are stuck in Urithiru, unable to get out, or use any light other than the Towerlight, which can't be transported out of the Tower. The only Radiants that can participate are Listener's Willshapers (which are a neutral faction), Retribution's Dustbringer, Skybreakers and potentially a few Enlightened Radiants working for Retribution (which I don't know any if any were said to be on his side. Sja-Anat switched sides and works for Ghostbloods now). Those will have access to Warlight directly from Retribution. 

However, I think Skybreaker's allegiance is uncertain. They've joined Odum only because of Nale and now he is thinking more clearly and he's rejoined the Oathpact, standing strongly in opposition to Retribution. I wouldn't be surprised that if this news ever reaches Skybreakers, they will abandon Retribution en masse, probably choosing neutrality or joining dissenters. But that's speculative so let's assume they remain loyal to Retribution.

This means Taravangian can right now muster around 2000 Fused (out of 4000 in total, the rest is too insane to participate in war as stated somewhere in the book), a few hundred Radiants (mainly from two Orders), and thousands of Regals. That's not impressive when you remember that Sigzil and Adolin with their limited forces were able to hold against the overwhelming forces of Odium for so long. However, his aces are Unmades who now can leave Roshar and they can cause significant havoc  - but Mishram is probably against Taravangian now, Sja-Anat might work for Scadrial, Thrill is making new friends at the bottom of the ocean - that's 3/9 out of the game, including his most powerful Unmades.

Considering that there are at least 20,000 Metalborn in the Basin alone and they all have modern weaponry at their disposition - guns, machine guns, tnt, artillery, trains and dreadnoughts - regular foot soldiers from Roshar stand no chance against Scadrial, Rosharan Invested troops look extremely weak compared to what we had after the release of TLM. 

And that's not mentioning logistics as Rosharans quite literally lost all access to the Cognitive Realm and are unable to even leave their planet, unless Odium and Listeners grant them access to the only perpendicularity left on the planet (which was empty, it's not working yet, it's only just begun to fill and it will take years before it gets full). Fortunately for Taravangian, Dai-Gonarthis can create Elsegates in places of massive concentration of investiture (which don't exist anymore on Roshar until Retribution's perpendicularity becomes full), but the cost is apparently so high that even Rayse was not willing to pay it (destruction of Roshar???) So they can create a perpendicularity in a close proximity of an already existing perpendicularity on Scadrial (which doesn't really make any difference, it's almost the same place anyway).

And then there is the time dilation. This means no supply trains can be reasonably established from Roshar, even providing a steady supply of Warlight from Roshar is impossible because of massive time differences between those two words. The logistics of this war are a real nightmare now.

This all makes me think that Scadrians might have a much better chance at launching an invasion on Roshar than Rosharan would have at invading Scadrial. Still it doesn't mean Scadrians would have won invading Roshar, but I think in defence Scadrial would probably win after a brutal conflict against Retribution's forces as they are right now (that's scenario 1 I think).

In scenario 2 I think it would be even worse for Roshar. 80 years of technological progress on Scadrial compared to 10 on Roshar. Even if Taravangian gives them tech comparable to Era 2, Scadrial will have 80s tech (which is M1 Abrams tank and F16 jets and many other things that are still used by US today!!). They would be blasted into oblivion by Scadrial without even using their Metalborn. I even believe Scadrial would be able to successfully conquer Roshar.

If Urithiru, Azir, Narak and Taravangian were to unite, then I think they would win even without Bondsmiths. But that's unrealistic for now. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

I think all scenarios will result in Roshar getting wiped. Scadrial has guns, nukes, planes, and factories in addition to Atium, Lerasium, medallions, metalborn, etc. Roshar has vastly inferior technology and lost the Radiants. In the first two scenarios, guns will wipe the non-shardbearers. In the last one, I suspect logistics and canned food will carry the Scadrians. The high storm is gone and only a weak ever storm remains, which means the expedition won't be caught off by the storms. The higher oxygen content of Roshar will make the average Scadrian troop there perform incredibly well and make the non invested Rosharan troops fare extremely poorly on Scadrial. If you take the time dilation into effect, I think there is no contest. Retribution fled Roshar. 

 

Edit: If the Scadrial wants to control Roshar, they should act now. I didn't even mention Hemalurgy, kandra, or koloss

Edited December 17, 2024 by Qianweilian

[Isilel]

After Kaladin's fight with Nale showed that living Radiant armor can also be damaged and rendered non-functional for a time by heavy blows,  I'd say that a Mistborn with access to guns and aluminium bullets/shotgun shells filled with aluminium shot, alongside with normal ammunition, would have a very good chance of defeating most 4th Ideal Radiants one on one. 

And if they have access to harmonium grenades, it would be pretty much a slam-dunk. Load it with chromium allomancy, direct and activate it with a Steelpush/Ironpull  then repeatedly shoot the de-powered adversary.

Now that I think about it, a Coinshot with such gear would already be quite dangerous. Ditto Steelrunner, though another grenade activation mechanism would be required. They would need  Leecher  support to re-charge their grenades, but such combination would make for a very effective fighting team.

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

After Kaladin's fight with Nale showed that living Radiant armor can also be damaged and rendered non-functional for a time by heavy blows,  I'd say that a Mistborn with access to guns and aluminium bullets/shotgun shells filled with aluminium shot, alongside with normal ammunition, would have a very good chance of defeating most 4th Ideal Radiants one on one.

Doubtful.

After what we see what Taln can do, in much weakened state, I would say Heralds hit far above any gun. They are stronger than even Shardplate, and that is already 20x over human. Nale tosses Kaladin in Plate like he is nothing. Such punches will carry more momentum and more energy than nearly any gun.

In addition, Roseite can take machine gun fire, and that is at least comparable to Living Plate (both being made of heavily Invested material).

EDIT: (couldn't stop myself )

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I think all scenarios will result in Roshar getting wiped. Scadrial has guns, nukes, planes, and factories in addition to Atium, Lerasium, medallions, metalborn, etc. Roshar has vastly inferior technology and lost the Radiants. In the first two scenarios, guns will wipe the non-shardbearers. In the last one, I suspect logistics and canned food will carry the Scadrians. The high storm is gone and only a weak ever storm remains, which means the expedition won't be caught off by the storms. The higher oxygen content of Roshar will make the average Scadrian troop there perform incredibly well and make the non invested Rosharan troops fare extremely poorly on Scadrial. If you take the time dilation into effect, I think there is no contest. 

Scadrial does not have nukes, that requires access to Trellium (non-Scadrial shardmetal). At most they have ettmetal bombs.

Scadrial does not have planes, Southerners have invested flight machines (somewhat more advanced than what Roshar has).

Scadrial does not have Lerasium, they don't know how to create it (likely due to lack of Intent).

Southern Scadrial has medallions, however they are much more limited than we were lead to believe (see Wax's comments in TLM).

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Retribution fled Roshar. 

But can still act, like provide Warlight, or determine where and how Everstorm functions (like its removal from Azir). If Retribution wanted, it could concentrate it wherever Scadrians appear.

Scadrians would face immortal, unkillable Fused, in-addition to some Radiants.

And if we are considering united planets like you seem to, then Roshar has all of the Radiants + Urithiru + Unoathed. And now Radiants can move freely to other planets.

In scenario with united planets Roshar wins simply due to Harmony being unable to act, unlike Retribution, if we ignore rest of Cosmere.
If not, then both Shards are off the table, but Retribution is capable of actively providing his followers with Investiture, something Harmony is unable to do.

Couple hundreds of full Radiants + thousands of Fused + Warlight on demand = very difficult to kill army. Battle of Shattered Planes in WaT showed how outclassed most other worlds are at the moment. How would Scadrians kill something like Focused Ones? They are nearly impervious to Shardblades. Combine with Unmade like Dai-Gonarthis who could Elsegate forces, or Windrunners who can trivially move at 200 mph while transporting troops, and Scadrial would have little chance.

To summarize:

• For united planets, Roshar has following advantages
  • Air superiority (Windrunners and Skybreakers)
  • Investiture superiority (Warlight availability , plus Invested soldiers on Roshar end are much stronger and have large numbers)
    • I'll note that we saw Warlight in gemstones in RoW, and there it didn't have any issues with leaking from Gemstones faster than Stormlight
  • Far superior mobility (Elsegates and Windrunner transports)
  • Logistics (Soulcasters and ability to manifest in Shadesmar)
  • On Roshar, they have Everstorm
• Scadrial has
  • Better long range weaponry

Scadrial would be hard pressed to use their advantage, as Roshar would have full air superiority, which is basically all you need to win. Combine with Radiants, Fused and Regals and you have all you need to win.

But that is just united scenario.

More realistic scenario, is much more complicated.

Scadrial consists of at least 3 nations:

• Basin - which is politically unstable
  • have access to metalborn (circa 20 000 of all metalborn together, of all ages. Battle ready would be at most ~5000)
  • some knowledge of Hemalurgy (Ghostbloods), but that is not all that useful (you trade more troops for fewer)
• Malwish - freshly unified
  • have access to medallions, but lack metalborn
• Maskless
  • ???

So there is political division that could be exploited. Roshar is comparatively more unified, but as a result lacks Radiants (outside of Skybreakers and Dustbringers). However, those Radiants are somewhat weakened by their flawed philosophy, so very few will have Plate (if any). There is about 2000 Fused who are battle ready however, and that is probably the greatest advantage Roshar holds.

1 v 1, Fused would take Metalborn guns included (some like Husked Ones or Focused Ones would be basically hard counter to any guns), so Scadrial would have to primarily rely on strength of regular soldiers. However, Roshar has far larger population, and Singers (primary forces to be used) mature about twice as fast as humans, and Regals are better in all physical attributes.

So Scadrial is outnumbered, enemy has better mobility (even without Radiants) and is stronger. So I would say Scadrial still loses.

Final analysis would include the time warp, but that basically renders this discussion moot.

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by therunner

[ALAKA]

50 minutes ago, therunner said:

Scadrial does not have nukes, that requires access to Trellium (non-Scadrial shardmetal). At most they have ettmetal bombs.

Presumably they would have regular non-magical nukes like we have. Sunlit Man references nuclear power plants which Nomad must have seen *somewhere*

[Qianweilian He/him]

You mention radiants, but if I recall correctly, I don't believe we know if regular humans can use Warlight.

You're right, I probably did somewhat overstate the new Rosharan disadvantages and the Scadrian advantages, and the Everstorm would provide constant investiture on Roshar, but I think you may also be underestimating the impact of guns, factories, and modern logistics on warfare.

[Isilel]

@therunner:

IMHO, you are really underestimating the effectiveness of allomantic grenades charged with Leeching followed by gunfire and/or explosives. The Focused Ones use Investiture to become so dense. Take it away and they are sitting ducks.

Regarding Radiant plate, 4th Oath Radiants got killed during the Desolations, which means that it can be broken with regular melee weapons.  Guns, explosives, Steelpushing and Leeching can only make it easier.

And the Basin has everything it needs to  develop conventional airplanes. In fact, I was shocked that models inspired by the  early 20-eth century aircraft didn't yet  appear in TLM.

But I am not claiming that Scadrial as of the end of TLM could conquer Roshar. As you said, Scadrial has a low population that is not united versus an active inimical deity + perpetual storm, etc. But it would be able to defend itself in case of an attack, if none of it's large factions joined Retrivangian.

As to Era 3 Scadrial vs Roshar in the second half of SA, we'll see, won't we? In a decade or so.

[Qianweilian He/him]

Scadrial would probably win in a prolonged conflict due to it's superior technology and powers that are honestly just more sustainable, whereas I see no way for Roshar to successfully hold Scadrial. Scadrial's technology will make it impossible for Retribution to hold any real territory on Scadrial. Also I suspect Harmony's intent will allow him to maintain the status quo.

[alder24]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Scadrial does not have nukes, that requires access to Trellium (non-Scadrial shardmetal). At most they have ettmetal bombs.

The Basin has some Trellium confiscated from the Set, they can create a few warheads with that.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Scadrians would face immortal, unkillable Fused

If you spike out Fused Connection to Odium, I think they won't be unkillable anymore.

But even beside that, they will respawn on Roshar, where time dilation will prevent them from joining the fight immediately. They would have to waste days, weeks, or even months to get back to the front lines. Fused are of course a force to be recon with, but time dilation screws them massively if the fight is happening on Scadrial.

And we now know that cracking their gemhearts will take away most of their powers and Scadrians have a lot of explosive devices that can do just that. Rain of bullets will kill them too. Guns basically nullify their 7,000 years of fighting experience because they fight mostly hand to hand. They aren't that unkillable.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

How would Scadrians kill something like Focused Ones? They are nearly impervious to Shardblades.

Good thing that you've mentioned it because the book provided us with all necessary information to determine if Scadrians can kill them. WaT ch 63:

Quote

“Four Lashings,” Vienta whispered, “at three hundred feet should be enough, judging by the metrics you provided me.”
Sigzil gained some distance with a few Lashings, then came back in low, using four Lashings in repeated succession. He skimmed across the top of the plateau, darting past skirmishing groups, the speed of his passing making pooled water split behind him in a wake—flashing red from reflected lightning above. He came in at a Focused One. The creature glanced at him at the last second, and took a Shardspear in the face.

Rosharan g is 6.86 m/s^2, times 4 it's 27.44, 300 feet is 91.44 meters, times 1.1 to convert from Rosharan feet gives 101 meters. From this we can calculate using free fall equations that when Sig speared the Focused One, he was moving at the speed of 74.45 m/s, which is like 10% of WW1 weapons' muzzle velocity . Even revolvers from the mid XiX century reach at least 3 times that speed. I think Scadrians will be more than well equipped to kill the Focused Ones with their guns. 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Scadrial would be hard pressed to use their advantage, as Roshar would have full air superiority, which is basically all you need to win.

There were a few wars lost despite having air superiority, most notably the Chinese Civil War, Vietnam War, or wars in Afghanistan for example. You need more than that to win.

Scadrians have AA guns which would certainly give Radiants and Fused more than a headache, but more importantly Rosharans would be forced to engage on Scadrian terms. By this I mean they won't be able to fully utilize their maneuverability, altitude and speed because Lurchers and Coinshots would dominate the lower altitudes and from there they would harass ground forces causing heavy casualties. Rosharan air forces would have to come down and fight for lower altitudes with Allomancers, where they would be vulnerable to all kinds of guns and Metalborns would be able to utilize buildings and cramped twisty streets to force their enemies to move much slower than they could move in the open air. Scadrians can use terrain and tactics to their advantage and with this nullify most advantages the Surge of Gravitation have, equalizing the fight between them.

[StanLemon]

On the Scadrial nuke subject. Even ignoring the Trellium part, Bands of Morning showed that So Scadrial has city destroying bombs already 

[NameIess]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Rosharan g is 6.86 m/s^2, times 4 it's 27.44, 300 feet is 91.44 meters, times 1.1 to convert from Rosharan feet gives 101 meters. From this we can calculate using free fall equations that when Sig speared the Focused One, he was moving at the speed of 74.45 m/s, which is like 10% of WW1 weapons' muzzle velocity . Even revolvers from the mid XiX century reach at least 3 times that speed. I think Scadrians will be more than well equipped to kill the Focused Ones with their guns. 

Sigzil was using a Shardspear and has a lot more mass than a bullet. I’d say the Focused Ones are still safely bullet-resistant.

 

[Immortal Platypus]

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Rosharan g is 6.86 m/s^2, times 4 it's 27.44, 300 feet is 91.44 meters, times 1.1 to convert from Rosharan feet gives 101 meters. From this we can calculate using free fall equations that when Sig speared the Focused One, he was moving at the speed of 74.45 m/s, which is like 10% of WW1 weapons' muzzle velocity . Even revolvers from the mid XiX century reach at least 3 times that speed. I think Scadrians will be more than well equipped to kill the Focused Ones with their guns. 

To be fair, he speared them with a Shardblade, which would be a little different than normal bullets. Although, thinking about it, skewering with a Blade might be harder because Investiture resists Investiture? I'm not sure how that works. So bullets would probably either be more effective or less effective (depending on how this whole Investiture resists Investiture thing works). If they're less effective, discounting Leechers (which is a big thing to ignore), the Focused Ones could heal the damage off. If they're more effective, the Sigzil+Spear combo still had a lot more mass than a bullet.

Quote

But even beside that, they will respawn on Roshar, where time dilation will prevent them from joining the fight immediately. They would have to waste days, weeks, or even months to get back to the front lines. Fused are of course a force to be recon with, but time dilation screws them massively if the fight is happening on Scadrial.

...

Scadrians have AA guns which would certainly give Radiants and Fused more than a headache, but more importantly Rosharans would be forced to engage on Scadrian terms. By this I mean they won't be able to fully utilize their maneuverability, altitude and speed because Lurchers and Coinshots would dominate the lower altitudes and from there they would harass ground forces causing heavy casualties. Rosharan air forces would have to come down and fight for lower altitudes with Allomancers, where they would be vulnerable to all kinds of guns and Metalborns would be able to utilize buildings and cramped twisty streets to force their enemies to move much slower than they could move in the open air. Scadrians can use terrain and tactics to their advantage and with this nullify most advantages the Surge of Gravitation have, equalizing the fight between them.

All of this assumes a fight on Scadrial. Personally, I'm of the opinion that neither side could realistically hold the other side's planet, especially if we consider non-unified planets. I think this favors Roshar more than Scadrial, leading to a stalemate. I think this would happen either way, but I think it would be at least a little closer this way. The Unoathed + Radiants is probably about equal to (or even less than) the capability of medallions, more commonplace chromium grenades, and the other benefits Scadrial gains.

4 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

You mention radiants, but if I recall correctly, I don't believe we know if regular humans can use Warlight.

Presumably they can because they can use Towerlight, and Warlight holds Stormlight inside it. If Retribution wanted, he could probably separate his halves into Stormlight and Voidlight if he really needed to anyway.

Edited December 17, 2024 by Ookla the Arbiter

[FleetFoot14]

I think that it’s more even than some may think.

 

If we’re talking about Shard vs Shard, I have my money on Retribution. His intent doesn’t have the same limitations as Harmony. He will do whatever it takes to win.

 

One should never underestimate experience on a battlefield. With the Fused, we’re talking about Commanders with thousands of years of experience in war. Humans also have plenty of experience at war. I’d argue that Roshar has a far higher understanding of Military Science. Which means they’ll have a better leadership structure with more disciplined soldiers, civilians are more accustomed to life during a war (and living in a war economy), they’ll be better at responding and adapting to new technologies (and perhaps reverse engineering them), and they’ll be better at running supply lines (and interrupting enemy supply lines).

 

On the time dilation: Roshar will have ~10 years to prepare for war. I’d expect the Retribution aligned areas will be heavily focused on that. Scadrial will have ~80 years, but their focus will be different. Harmony, as mentioned before is constrained in his ability to act. Kelsier and the Ghostbloods can and will do everything they can do to protect the planet, but Kelsier has fewer resources and less influence than a Shard.

 

Technology and science in general: Scadrial definitely has the edge here. They have WMDs, lots of aluminum, leechers, and much, much more. But I wouldn’t count Roshar’s science out. They have access to light and anti-light, which are incredibly destructive. Their knowledge of sound and rhythms will certainly help them develop weapons and defenses against allomancy. They also have better access to the Cognitive Realm.

 

I'd bet on a stalemate that leads to a long, drawn out war. Or Roshar figures out how to destroy a whole planet.

[Qianweilian He/him]

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

So bullets would probably either be more effective or less effective

This shows just how much random guessing goes on on this site

[Immortal Platypus]

17 minutes ago, FleetFoot14 said:

Technology and science in general: Scadrial definitely has the edge here. They have WMDs, lots of aluminum, leechers, and much, much more. But I wouldn’t count Roshar’s science out. They have access to light and anti-light, which are incredibly destructive. Their knowledge of sound and rhythms will certainly help them develop weapons and defenses against allomancy. They also have better access to the Cognitive Realm.

I forgot about that. With those, both planets could potentially create big bombs (Scadrial using Ettmetal with or w/o trellium and Roshar with light and anti-light). This could potentially lead to MAD in this planetary warfare. Or it could lead to first and second strike doctrine, which would encourage the use of the WMDs. I would bet MAD as both planets could survive the WMDs and fire back with their own.

5 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

This shows just how much random guessing goes on on this site

I didn't even guess!  but it is an important thing to consider, as it would alter the war if Focused Ones are less impervious to bullets than Shardblades. I doubt it, because we see spears penetrate less than a Blade (I think), so bullets wouldn't be more effective than a Blade.

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, Ookla the nostealnamepls said:

Sigzil was using a Shardspear and has a lot more mass than a bullet. I’d say the Focused Ones are still safely bullet-resistant.

Considering that Sig speared that Focused one right though his head and towed him to the ground, a bullet with only 3x less energy than Sigzil's entire body had (I did the math, assuming he weighs 80 kg) would still penetrate their skin. Maybe it won't pass right through their body, but it will dig deep into their flesh and damage vital organs, like the brain, heart or a gemstone for example. Guns are still a threat to them.

 

29 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

To be fair, he speared them with a Shardblade, which would be a little different than normal bullets. Although, thinking about it, skewering with a Blade might be harder because Investiture resists Investiture? I'm not sure how that works. So bullets would probably either be more effective or less effective (depending on how this whole Investiture resists Investiture thing works). If they're less effective, discounting Leechers (which is a big thing to ignore), the Focused Ones could heal the damage off. If they're more effective, the Sigzil+Spear combo still had a lot more mass than a bullet.

Seems like it's a matter of density. A normal Shardblade strike did cut a little bit into their skin but was stopped. I don't think it's because of investiture resistance, I think it's because their body is super-dense. My first reaction to them was "Brandon made Fused into cheese." 

33 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

All of this assumes a fight on Scadrial. Personally, I'm of the opinion that neither side could realistically hold the other side's planet, especially if we consider non-unified planets.

Agreed.

 

18 minutes ago, FleetFoot14 said:

One should never underestimate experience on a battlefield. With the Fused, we’re talking about Commanders with thousands of years of experience in war.

I would say Fused commanders might be a disadvantage because of their long spanning experience. They are like spren, hyper-focused on their own thing, their own intent and that leaves them unwilling to change and adapt (just ask Lezian). Confronted with modern military tactics they would struggle to reorganize and improve their methods - just look at how Singers were fighting during the Final Desolation, in war pairs not in proper large scale formations. They've already shown that they can't adapt to modern standards of war, which leaves them extremely vulnerable to Scadrians who can implement modern weaponry together with modern tactics. It would be like early days of WW 1, Fused would be sending tens of thousands to die under concentrated artillery and machine gun fire in general assaults that have no chance of success.

[StanLemon]

43 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

To be fair, he speared them with a Shardblade, which would be a little different than normal bullets. Although, thinking about it, skewering with a Blade might be harder because Investiture resists Investiture? I'm not sure how that works.

This is the implication from the text. The Blade lost it's supernatural sharpness because the leather straps were too Invested. So the Blade had no more effect that it would against leather armor, something guns are quite good at penetrating

[Immortal Platypus]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Seems like it's a matter of density. A normal Shardblade strike did cut a little bit into their skin but was stopped. I don't think it's because of investiture resistance, I think it's because their body is super-dense. My first reaction to them was "Brandon made Fused into cheese." 

That's what I was thinking too, but I was thinking that there is the possibility of it being because of Investiture. Are the "belts" part of their carapace, or an outfit? I didn't think density mattered to a Shardblade, and the only reason I can think of that if blocks them is that it's both Invested and very dense; the Investment accounts for the ability to block Blades, while the density accounts for the capability to block other weapons. I know that eventually cheese could break a Shardblade (what a great WOB), but I got the impression that that didn't have to do with density blocking the Blade, but rather, pressure being exerted on its sides.

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is the implication from the text. The Blade lost it's supernatural sharpness because the leather straps were too Invested. So the Blade had no more effect that it would against leather armor, something guns are quite good at penetrating

I didn't get that from the text. What I got is that for some reason, Tension made it so their skin was harder to penetrate than normal. I'm pretty sure we see normal spears not work against it, and that doesn't make a ton of sense if it's just because of Investment. I feel like spears can penetrate leather armor.

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, Isilel said:

@therunner:

IMHO, you are really underestimating the effectiveness of allomantic grenades charged with Leeching followed by gunfire and/or explosives. The Focused Ones use Investiture to become so dense. Take it away and they are sitting ducks.

It is more difficult to leech actively used Investiture, so we can't say if leeching grenade could shut them down like that.

And at this point, allomantic grenades are about as very rare, so you would not have them on every battlefield. Right now we saw more Focused Ones than Allomantic grenades.

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Regarding Radiant plate, 4th Oath Radiants got killed during the Desolations, which means that it can be broken with regular melee weapons.  Guns, explosives, Steelpushing and Leeching can only make it easier.

Steelpushing is completly useless against Plate, it cannot even penetrate wooden shields.

Guns, again we saw Roseite golem, and that withstood machine gun fire. Plate is going to be comparable if not better.

And Desolations have Fused like Focused Ones, who are quite powerful and Thunderclasts, which can easily account for dead 4th Oath Radiants.

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13 hours ago, ALAKA said:

Presumably they would have regular non-magical nukes like we have. Sunlit Man references nuclear power plants which Nomad must have seen *somewhere*

 

Sunlit man is at least ~1 century in the future, likely 2.

And as of TLM, Scadrial lacks all of the knowledge to build nukes. Frankly, Roshar is actually closer, since they are already on track to discover quantum phenomena.

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And the Basin has everything it needs to  develop conventional airplanes. In fact, I was shocked that models inspired by the  early 20-eth century aircraft didn't yet  appear in TLM.

But they don't have them yet, and they are explicitly quite slow in developing.  And those planes are still far inferior to just a Windrunner.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

The Basin has some Trellium confiscated from the Set, they can create a few warheads with that.

Depends on how much. Single spike worth was unable to destroy more than a room.

Plus they don't have any easy means of delivering the payload, they don't have rockets.

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If you spike out Fused Connection to Odium, I think they won't be unkillable anymore.

Scadrians don't have that level of knowledge of Hemalurgy.

They barely understand about bindpoints in humans, and you want them to do that on completely different species? And how would you do that mid-fight?
That won't happen.

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But even beside that, they will respawn on Roshar, where time dilation will prevent them from joining the fight immediately. They would have to waste days, weeks, or even months to get back to the front lines. Fused are of course a force to be recon with, but time dilation screws them massively if the fight is happening on Scadrial.

That is why i explicitly ignored time dilation, that renders the entire discussion pointless.
Or more precisely, it would only allow situation where Scadrial tries to attack Roshar, but Scadrial won't be able to get large forces there as they don't have easy access to Shadesmar.

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And we now know that cracking their gemhearts will take away most of their powers and Scadrians have a lot of explosive devices that can do just that. Rain of bullets will kill them too. Guns basically nullify their 7,000 years of fighting experience because they fight mostly hand to hand. They aren't that unkillable.

Gemheart that was cracked by Shardblade, and nothing else so far.

I think Fused will be fine.

Husked Ones would be especially problematic against any force rellying on guns, since they would simply teleport right next to them.

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Rosharan g is 6.86 m/s^2, times 4 it's 27.44, 300 feet is 91.44 meters, times 1.1 to convert from Rosharan feet gives 101 meters. From this we can calculate using free fall equations that when Sig speared the Focused One, he was moving at the speed of 74.45 m/s, which is like 10% of WW1 weapons' muzzle velocity . Even revolvers from the mid XiX century reach at least 3 times that speed. I think Scadrians will be more than well equipped to kill the Focused Ones with their guns. 

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Considering that Sig speared that Focused one right though his head and towed him to the ground, a bullet with only 3x less energy than Sigzil's entire body had (I did the math, assuming he weighs 80 kg) would still penetrate their skin. Maybe it won't pass right through their body, but it will dig deep into their flesh and damage vital organs, like the brain, heart or a gemstone for example. Guns are still a threat to them.

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Considering that Sig speared that Focused one right though his head and towed him to the ground, a bullet with only 3x less energy than Sigzil's entire body had (I did the math, assuming he weighs 80 kg)

Thank you for the calculation, however you neglect the fact that for penetration depth, momentum is often better for first order analysis.

1. Weight of WW1 rifle/machine gun bullet is about ~12 grams. Its momentum would be p = 0.012*744 = 744.012 .
2. Sigzil + Shard weight at about ~80 kg (they are tall and reasonably muscular). Their momentum is p = 80*74.4 = 5952

Also, your energy calculation is off

• KE = 1/2mv^2
  • Bullet KE = 1/2*0.012*744^2 = 3321 J
  • Sigzil KE = 1/2*80*74^2 = 219040 J

So the Sgizil has 8x the momentum, and 65x  the energy of a WW1 machine gun bullet. So the bullet would certainly not penetrate, nor damage any organs (which would be easily healed) or gemheart.

Further, such strike to the head as Sigzil did would not be deadly with a gun (I hope i remember correctly it was to the head), as Focused One would simply heal it. And head is the least protected part of their Focused Ones body, strike anywhere else would be far more difficult.

Also, from Shardplate/Half-shard vs Shardblade interaction, we know that Invested materials are more resistant against non-Invested materials than Invested ones. I.e. if there is active Investiture in Focused One (likely is), they will resist non-invested strikes even better than they do Shardblade strikes.

As such, Scadrial lacks personell weaponry to kill Focused Ones, they won't even hurt them much. Artillery could likely damage them, but hitting human sized target with WW1 artillery on purpose is...not likely.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

There were a few wars lost despite having air superiority, most notably the Chinese Civil War, Vietnam War, or wars in Afghanistan for example. You need more than that to win.

Chinese civil war had casualties unsustainable for Scadrial.
Vietnam war had dense jungle and Afghanistan difficult mountaines terrain, both of which made it difficult to hold ground. Basin has neither of these advantages.

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Scadrians have AA guns which would certainly give Radiants and Fused more than a headache, but more importantly Rosharans would be forced to engage on Scadrian terms.

Very early AA guns that would trying to hit constantly accelerating target (very different from plane at mostly constant velocity), that is smaller than any plane.  Wax in TLM is somewhat worried about Malwish ''planes'' and those are much larger, slower and fly lower than both Radiants and Fused, those AA guns would not do much.

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 By this I mean they won't be able to fully utilize their maneuverability, altitude and speed because Lurchers and Coinshots would dominate the lower altitudes and from there they would harass ground forces causing heavy casualties.
...
Scadrians can use terrain and tactics to their advantage and with this nullify most advantages the Surge of Gravitation have, equalizing the fight between them.

Do explain how Lurchers and Coinshots would dominate at lower altitueds?
They are far inferior to Mistborn, and Mistborn are inferior to anyone with Surge of Gravitation. They would be dropping like flies, and unlike Fused, they won't get reborn.

Even in corridors, Gravitation is still superior to Coinshots and Lurchers (at least Radiant version). It can accelerate in any direction, with any acceleration, neither of which Allomancers can do. There is no situation where Allomancer is better at flight.

Fused would have more of a disadvantage in corridors, but they can choose not to engage and simply drop rocks on any such buildings. Or invite Thunderclast. Or send one Husked One to hunt them down in corridords. Or Masked One to cause chaos and steal their weaponry/ammo.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I would say Fused commanders might be a disadvantage because of their long spanning experience. They are like spren, hyper-focused on their own thing, their own intent and that leaves them unwilling to change and adapt (just ask Lezian). Confronted with modern military tactics they would struggle to reorganize and improve their methods - They've already shown that they can't adapt to modern standards of war,

While yes, Fused would have more difficulty adapting their tactics, their tactics would do pretty well.
I mean, Lezian would slaughter anyone except Miles in Era 2, they simply have no way to counter someone like that.

Plus El is quite open thinker, so they could still be fine. Or they could leave their tactics to humans, who would be more adaptable.

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just look at how Singers were fighting during the Final Desolation, in war pairs not in proper large scale formations.

And that changed once Fused started leading them.

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which leaves them extremely vulnerable to Scadrians who can implement modern weaponry together with modern tactics.

What modern tactics? Basin has never fought anything even approaching a war, they have zero experience.
Malwish do have experience, however they lack knowledge of how to utilize metalborn in any large numbers.

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It would be like early days of WW 1, Fused would be sending tens of thousands to die under concentrated artillery and machine gun fire in general assaults that have no chance of success.

No it wouldn't.

The Azir parts clearly showed Fused adapting their tactics and not just mindlessly sending people to a meatgrinder. It was still a meatgrinder battle, but that was due to the chokepoint.

If there was machine gun fire or artillery, they could simply send in Husked Ones to break the weapon placement (similar to how Lezian was used in RoW to break formation on the stairs), or drop stones on them from up-high, or send in Thunderclast (like they eventually did with the dome).

Fused are not as idiotic as you are potraying them to be.


 

Edited December 18, 2024 by therunner

[alder24]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Guns, again we saw Roseite golem, and that withstood machine gun fire. Plate is going to be comparable if not better.

Nowhere in that moment was a machine gun mentioned. The golem was able to withstand the gun fire because it had half a jar of pure Dor to immediately heal every bits of roseite that were chopped off. TLM ch 51:

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Some soldiers continued to fire. Others up and ran. Chips blasted off the construct, but the holes filled in immediately. The jar of pure Investiture— still half full—had been overgrown by the roseite and was near the rear of the large stone figure, its glow illuminating TwinSoul from behind.

Spheres of light won't provide the same amount of investiture as a jar full of liquid Dor.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

And as of TLM, Scadrial lacks all of the knowledge to build nukes.

That's not true, Set did it all and now with Set being wiped out, their notes and scientific documents would fall into the Basin hands. Plus Wax also has a little knowledge which would help. In TLM epilogue 7 it was said that the Basin was considering building nukes:

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No harmonium meant no airships. And no Investiture bombs, though trellium was the rarer component of that particular device. Unfortunately, the Basin had enough of both metals squirreled away to be dangerous. And despite his arguments against it, the Basin had been looking into developing weapons using those remnants.

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

But they don't have them yet, and they are explicitly quite slow in developing.  And those planes are still far inferior to just a Windrunner.

Things in the Basin are changing now. The cold war is starting, the arms race is beginning. Planes will be developed very soon. Just a reminder, the first plane was invented in 1903, not even 11 years later they were used in WW 1.

But yes, they would be inferior to Fused/Radiants. The thing is, they don’t have to compete with them. They can still be used for scouting or bombing missions and they will certainly quickly outnumber flying units of Roshar. How many Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers are there? A few hundreds at best? They can’t be everywhere at once a a few thousands of plane created via modern industry can easily stretched Rosharan air units too thin. 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Depends on how much. Single spike worth was unable to destroy more than a room.

That's not true, it was a tiniest sliver of Trellium, not a whole spike. Less than a gram considering he used only half a gram of Harmonium. TLM ch 15&16:

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“I’ll get a tiny sliver of trellium,” Steris said, “so we don’t have to use the entire spike.”
[...]
“How much harmonium did you use in here? A few grams?”
“Around half a gram.”

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Plus they don't have any easy means of delivering the payload, they don't have rockets.

Thankfully, Set once again did all the work for them and Wax took their notes. They can build rockets.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Scadrians don't have that level of knowledge of Hemalurgy.

They barely understand about bindpoints in humans, and you want them to do that on completely different species? And how would you do that mid-fight?
That won't happen.

Some do. The Set, Kandra, Ghostbloods, even Wax and Marasi - there are enough people on Scadrial that have a deep understanding of Hemalurgy that can use it to be dangerous. Plus this knowledge can be easily shared with more people as the only thing needed for Hemalurgy to work is a piece of metal and a bit of insight. Future sight abilities can help with accurate placement of spikes - well, Kandra started to manufacture Atium and there are of course Oracles who can burn electrum. 

And how do you do it mid-fight? Dalinar did it. It's not that big of a deal. You can always set up a trap like Melishi did.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

That is why i explicitly ignored time dilation, that renders the entire discussion pointless.
Or more precisely, it would only allow situation where Scadrial tries to attack Roshar, but Scadrial won't be able to get large forces there as they don't have easy access to Shadesmar.

You can't ignore time dilation as that's a key component of Roshar at this moment. It's a massive problem that Rosharans have to face in their fight against Scadrians that favors Scadrial on both attack and defense. I think it’s one of the most important things in this discussion. 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Gemheart that was cracked by Shardblade, and nothing else so far.

No, a normal sword. WaT ch 11:

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Adolin. He absently shoved Adolin aside and raised a sword to finish off the fallen Windrunner. Adolin leaped in and deflected the blow with his oversized sword, which he held in a strange grip: one hand on the hilt, one hand on the unsharpened section right above the crossguard.
With obvious surprise at being challenged, Abidi swept for Adolin—who ducked, stepping in close, and expertly rammed the tip of his sword between two pieces of carapace on the Fused’s side. It crunched as Adolin shoved it in deep.
The Fused gasped, and the red light in his eyes flickered. Abidi ripped himself back off the sword, managed to dodge Adolin’s follow-up attack, then tried to flee into the sky. He made it ten feet before his Voidlight gave out and he crashed into the beads and was sucked beneath the surface.

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Husked Ones would be especially problematic against any force rellying on guns, since they would simply teleport right next to them.

True, but on the other hand guns are faster than thoughts. One bullet is enough to kill them. It's a risky strategy.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Thank you for the calculation, however you neglect the fact that for penetration depth, momentum is often better for first order analysis.

1. Weight of WW1 rifle/machine gun bullet is about ~12 grams. Its momentum would be p = 0.012*744 = 744.012 .
2. Sigzil + Shard weight at about ~80 kg (they are tall and reasonably muscular). Their momentum is p = 80*74.4 = 5952

Also, your energy calculation is off

• KE = 1/2mv^2
  • Bullet KE = 1/2*0.012*744^2 = 3321 J
  • Sigzil KE = 1/2*80*74^2 = 219040 J

So the Sgizil has 8x the momentum, and 65x  the energy of a WW1 machine gun bullet. So the bullet would certainly not penetrate, nor damage any organs (which would be easily healed) or gemheart.

Thanks for the correction, no idea how I missed that 0 at the end of Sig's energy. As my excuse I say only that it was past midnight and I was a bit sleepy. Still, missing that 0 is embarrassing. 

As for the bullet weight, I assume it’s 0.03 kg after a very quick google search - again it was late.

You're right then, most bullets probably won't harm them, maybe some lucky shots into eyes. However I would say they will penetrate them but not very deep. They could slowly drain them out of Voidlight, but to kill them explosives or a bigger caliber is a must. Aluminum bullets however might hurt them even more - they will dig only into their skin, but prevent healing and break their belts held by tension. 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Also, from Shardplate/Half-shard vs Shardblade interaction, we know that Invested materials are more resistant against non-Invested materials than Invested ones. I.e. if there is active Investiture in Focused One (likely is), they will resist non-invested strikes even better than they do Shardblade strikes.

Do we? All three of those things are invested and Awakened clothes or ropes do not resist being cut by a normal knife at all. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

As such, Scadrial lacks personell weaponry to kill Focused Ones, they won't even hurt them much. Artillery could likely damage them, but hitting human sized target with WW1 artillery on purpose is...not likely.

You'll be surprised, artillery in WW 1 was quite accurate. A single gun can fire several rounds per minute, there are dozens or hundreds of guns firing at one area - it guarantees hitting the Fused with that amount of fire. A single artillery piece can zero in on a moving target, that's not impossible at all. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Chinese civil war had casualties unsustainable for Scadrial.
Vietnam war had dense jungle and Afghanistan difficult mountaines terrain, both of which made it difficult to hold ground. Basin has neither of these advantages.

That's irrelevant, my single point here was air superiority is not everything, you need ground forces to press that advantage. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Very early AA guns that would trying to hit constantly accelerating target (very different from plane at mostly constant velocity), that is smaller than any plane.  Wax in TLM is somewhat worried about Malwish ''planes'' and those are much larger, slower and fly lower than both Radiants and Fused, those AA guns would not do much.

Not that different, planes turn and accelerate as well. The strength of AA guns is that they cover the entire sky in explosive bullets. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Do explain how Lurchers and Coinshots would dominate at lower altitueds?
They are far inferior to Mistborn, and Mistborn are inferior to anyone with Surge of Gravitation. They would be dropping like flies, and unlike Fused, they won't get reborn.

Even in corridors, Gravitation is still superior to Coinshots and Lurchers (at least Radiant version). It can accelerate in any direction, with any acceleration, neither of which Allomancers can do. There is no situation where Allomancer is better at flight.

In urban combat Mistings can also move in any direction, the difference is that Radiants/Fused can't use their superior speed because they would smash into a building. They also have to move slower to avoid g-forces due to constant twists and turns of streets (g-forces are canon in books, not in physics I know). Kaladin's fight with Leshwi at the beginning of RoW showed us that even Kaladin considered fighting low to the ground and near the people as too fast, too risky.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Fused would have more of a disadvantage in corridors, but they can choose not to engage and simply drop rocks on any such buildings.

That's precisely why they have to go down and engage Mistings. They can stay high in the air, but by doing this Allomancers would be killing their ground troops. They need to fight them and to do that they need to go lower, where they lose many advantages of their Lashings. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Or invite Thunderclast.

How many Thunderclasts are there? Only two? And they need weeks to regenerate? Not impressive. Artillery says they're obsolete.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Or send one Husked One to hunt them down in corridords.

They are a threat indeed, but they have a limited amount of jumps and are moving as a visible light. Just aim and shoot when they are appearing.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Or Masked One to cause chaos and steal their weaponry/ammo.

Kandra can do the same. Seekers can be used as guards.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

While yes, Fused would have more difficulty adapting their tactics, their tactics would do pretty well.

War pairs with swords against machine guns and artillery fires? Well? Not possible. Only Fused are posing a real threat here, not even Regals can compete with guns. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

I mean, Lezian would slaughter anyone except Miles in Era 2, they simply have no way to counter someone like that.

Good thing he's dead and others of his kind are not nearly as impressive as he was. In WaT it was also said that they are rare, a few, maybe tens at best. They can't be everywhere.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Plus El is quite open thinker, so they could still be fine. Or they could leave their tactics to humans, who would be more adaptable.

 

One Fused is not a whole command chain, you can't expect a single person to micro-manage everything. Humans would do better but still not that good as their mindset is set in medieval tactics. They would also struggle to adapt. Our history is full of examples of tactics not adapting to technology.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

And that changed once Fused started leading them.

No, it didn't. WaT ch 34:

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“Singers attack through aggression and momentum,” Adolin explained. “They’re not formation fighters—they usually flood across a battlefield in a rush, fighting in expert pairs trained to defend one another. We often have superior tactics, but each of their soldiers is stronger, tougher, and harder to kill than a human."

They would be just mowed down by machine guns. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

What modern tactics? Basin has never fought anything even approaching a war, they have zero experience.

While they don't have experience, they do have an army and strategists and they have shown adaptability by developing means to defend the Basin against the Malwish. They've been arming themselves for 6 years now. They have a much better idea on how to use guns in war than Rosharans do. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Malwish do have experience, however they lack knowledge of how to utilize metalborn in any large numbers.

I don't consider Malwish as a part of the war, just as I don't consider Urithiru as well. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Fused are not as idiotic as you are potraying them to be.

They aren't idiotic, but those are the same mistakes generals at the beginning of WW 1 did. They didn't realize how machine guns and artillery changed everything and were sending waves of people straight into a dense gun fire. The same will happen here. 

[StanLemon]

16 hours ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

didn't get that from the text. What I got is that for some reason, Tension made it so their skin was harder to penetrate than normal. I'm pretty sure we see normal spears not work against it, and that doesn't make a ton of sense if it's just because of Investment. I feel like spears can penetrate leather armor.

Sigzil seems to think that it's because of the Voidlight. I'm sure some of the stopping power is from density, but it's doubtful it's enough to stop anything more than low caliber bullets

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Their skin wraps must somehow use Voidlight to push back the spear.

And on the subject of nukes, sure they don't have literal nukes but they do have WMDs

9 hours ago, therunner said:

And as of TLM, Scadrial lacks all of the knowledge to build nukes. Frankly, Roshar is actually closer, since they are already on track to discover quantum phenomena.

South Scadrial had bombs decades before the events of Era 2 that were capable of destroying the city of Elendel.

 

Hoid makes a whole point in RoW about how antiquated war tactics of Roshar are inferior to modern technology. The only hope Roshar had is their vastly larger manpower and Fuzed. But those numbers might not even mean much when a single bomb can obliterate thousands of Rosharan soldiers

 

[Qianweilian He/him]

Retribution is mad at Dalinar for a reason. Roshar would not have a fun time in war.

[Immortal Platypus]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Things in the Basin are changing now. The cold war is starting, the arms race is beginning. Planes will be developed very soon. Just a reminder, the first plane was invented in 1903, not even 11 years later they were used in WW 1.

But yes, they would be inferior to Fused/Radiants. The thing is, they don’t have to compete with them. They can still be used for scouting or bombing missions and they will certainly quickly outnumber flying units of Roshar. How many Heavenly Ones and Skybreakers are there? A few hundreds at best? They can’t be everywhere at once a a few thousands of plane created via modern industry can easily stretched Rosharan air units too thin. 

A single lashing could take out a plane. Because of the way they fly, a single Lashing, changing gravity (or a half Lashing removing it) would take them out of the contest. If any get caught, they're in trouble. And some will get caught. Their planes would get whittled down until there aren't enough for their purposes. Reverse Lashings would also affect them, making it quite dangerous to fly if there are Windrunners in the area.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Thankfully, Set once again did all the work for them and Wax took their notes. They can build rockets.

The Set's rocket didn't work. And that was with an Avatar of Autonomy's help.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Sigzil seems to think that it's because of the Voidlight. I'm sure some of the stopping power is from density, but it's doubtful it's enough to stop anything more than low caliber bullets

Looks like @alder24 and @therunner did the math and agreed that bullets wouldn't be very effective.

43 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Retribution is mad at Dalinar for a reason. Roshar would not have a fun time in war.

neither would Scadrial. War is messy, and I don't think either would win.

[Qianweilian He/him]

56 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

A single lashing could take out a plane.

Yes, but Scadrial has the industrial capacity to make planes far faster than you can make radiants or fused. During ww1, the United States produced about 15,000 planes. During ww2, they produced 295,959 aircraft. 300,000 biplanes would most likely kill all the Skybreakers/Heavenly Ones

56 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

The Set's rocket didn't work.

They mentioned in the book that they were only a few months away, and they recovered all the Set's stuff

56 minutes ago, Ookla the Arbiter said:

Looks like @alder24 and @therunner did the math and agreed that bullets wouldn't be very effective.

Fair, but you have to remember, bullets are not the only things they have. Scadrial has dynamite and artillery, which would most likely destroy the fused.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Qianweilian
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