The Fourth Shard?

[feruchemicalrockband]

So, with the reveal of the 4th moon and tone on Roshar, it seems like there may have been a 4th Shard there all along. Current front-runners for who it is are Valor and Reason, as they are both Shards who can't be found.

Personally, I prefer Reason as the 4th Shard since some other Shards have been able to contact Valor, and it would be odd to contact someone without knowing where they are. There has been some discussion that only the Shards within the Rosharan System were unable to contact Valor-with external Shards being able to-but that's another topic entirely.

If it is Valor, I have a suspicion that the current state of Roshar was manipulated by her. If we look back on when Taravangian took Odium, the primary emotion he felt wasn't anger, or hatred, or lust for power, all emotions specifically stated to be loved by Odium. He specifically felt Bravery, something even he felt was surprised by. What if Valor has been on Roshar this whole time, and gave Taravangian the slightest push, rioting his courage to take up Odium? To help get Roshar, and the entire Cosmere, out of its old state?

Again, I kind of prefer for it to be Reason, because Valor having been on Roshar when others were communicating with her seems unlikely, but this sort of twist is pretty fun too.

 

This second point only requires having a fourth Shard, but I also believe I have the answer to what exactly Nohadan is. We see Taravangian save his city by taking them all into the Spiritual Realm, and making them a new home there. What if this is what happened to Nohadon and his people? Living in an eternal Spiritual City, placed there by the 4th Shard? We don't know the reason, but I suspect it has something to do with "Unity", as we see that Melishi and Ba-Ado-Mishram both seemed to hear "Unite them". Maybe Nohadon was given the Unite Dawnshard for safekeeping in the Spiritual Realm by the fourth Shard, and anyone sufficiently connected to the Spiritual Realm (minus Shards) could hear it?

[StanLemon]

I suspect that Valor is actually the "Survival Shard" it would make for an interesting foil on what people would expect of them. As for if there is another Shard on Roshar, it would feel like Reason would be likely to me. Especially if Nohadon is an avatar of Reason like some suspect 

[Elder]

Given the level of activity in the cognitive realm, I feel like if there is a 4th shard in Roshar it should be Reason. Plus I think that would be a good shard for Jasnah to interact with.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Elder

[LiftisaDragon]

Could you explain the 4th tone? Missed that 

[The Sovereign]

It does make sense for Reason to be attracted to the Math Planet.

[Elder]

Could also be Autonomy. You know how she gets.

[Ewery1]

3 hours ago, LiftisaDragon said:

Could you explain the 4th tone? Missed that 

It was when the chasmfiends were singing when the highstorm came, Venli noticed they sang 4 Pure Tones.

[Elder]

29 minutes ago, Ewery1 said:

It was when the chasmfiends were singing when the highstorm came, Venli noticed they sang 4 Pure Tones.

The chasmfiends (and the Reshi Island Greatshells) value boldness.  That sounds more like Valor than anything… though it seems to me that Valor isn’t involved… yet.  Could be autonomy.  

[DiePie]

the thing is, the moon falling to Roshar definitely symbolizes something, right?

I don't think it existed when humans reached Roshar (Honor never mentions it during Dalinar's visions, right?), and if the timing has anything to do with it, then I think (unfortunately) the 4th shard hasn't had a meaningful direct influence on Roshar in a very long time.

[Mack]

In regards to the Four Tones bit, for those that wish to reread, it's Chapter 60: Come and See. Chapter starts from Adolin's POV and then switches to Venli where she views the chasmfiends singing with four tones. 

I personally hate the idea of a 4th Shard being on Roshar all this time. However Valor is a dragon and Wit says they are "tricky lizards who hide where you least expect them" in chapter 21 of Wind and Truth. 

But there is a lot of weird stuff about Natanatan/Narak/The Shattered Plains. 

1. Site of the fourth moon/dead moon crash sight. At some point before the Shattering Roshar had a 4th moon. Shattered Plains seems to be where it fell. But my gut says fragments of the moon probably scattered all over Roshar. See point 6
2. In the past when Odium and Honor clash at Natanatan. Their brief fight seems to create anti-light. My question is does this happen whenever a Shard clashes or is it a result of the moon fragments underneath Natanatan?
3. The metal under Narak, fragments of the dead moon, can hide things from the Shards. There were people that were previously hidden from Tanavast that he sees while Natanatan is being destroyed. He calls them Watchers so maybe the Sleepless. 
4. Tanavast concludes this metal is something "greater than aluminum"
5. Natanatan is destroyed in a cymatic pattern becoming the Shattered plains. All the dawn cities cymatic patterns of their own. Are moon fragments under Kholinar, Vedenar, etc?
6. Odium ends up placing his perpendicularity there? I'm not exactly sure on this point. It seems like that's what it is in Venli chapters and the he places it there after Ba-Ado-Mishram attempted to usurp his power. And at the end of the book the pool fills with the Black and Blue light and Venli hears the Rhythm of War/Retribution's tone.

I'm beginning to wonder if these moon fragments being "greater than aluminum" is something like Duralumin. Acting as an investiture amplifier or something. Might explain why when the Highstorm and the Everstorm initially clashed it was so violent. 

[just1ndc]

My immediate reaction to hearing about the 4th moon was that it potentially represented Adonalsium and fell after the shattering. The book mentioned Adonalsium's 4 attributes and I assumed there might be a connection there. It also made me consider whether or not Adonalsium would have had a god metal. The Atium marsh was compounded to stay alive in Mistborn didn't disappear after ruin fused with Preservation to become Harmony. So theoretically, an Adonalsium metal should exist somewhere in the Cosmere, why not on Roshar?

[Ewery1]

1 hour ago, just1ndc said:

My immediate reaction to hearing about the 4th moon was that it potentially represented Adonalsium and fell after the shattering. The book mentioned Adonalsium's 4 attributes and I assumed there might be a connection there. It also made me consider whether or not Adonalsium would have had a god metal. The Atium marsh was compounded to stay alive in Mistborn didn't disappear after ruin fused with Preservation to become Harmony. So theoretically, an Adonalsium metal should exist somewhere in the Cosmere, why not on Roshar?

Wait I buy this - especially because of Braize. If Braize is attracting souls (investiture) that could be because it is Adonalsium’s “shardpool”. Would also help explain their interest in the Rosharan system.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Ewery1

[teknopathetic he/him]

We know the moons were there before the shards arrived, correct?

So to me the moons were likely for 4 spren of Adonalsium:

1. The Night

2. The Stone

3. The Wind

4. The ???  

Makes me wonder if there used to be a spren of Truth that was perhaps killed or coma-fied at some point since we get so much mention of Truth in the story.  Maybe during the shattering?
 

The horneaters mention a god of the water though, so maybe that is a candidate. The pure lake could be a hint as well that there was a water deity. The planet is mostly water, so a water deity makes a lot of sense. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[ScavellTane]

 

Quote

MoriWillow

You once told us that one of the Dawnshards was different from the others. As of the events of this novella, is that still true?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: MoriWillow is referring to this WoB .
Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)

The fourth moon might be connected to this since its disappearance is pre-Shattering(?).

[Acolyte of Radiance]

8 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

We know the moons were there before the shards arrived, correct?

So to me the moons were likely for 4 spren of Adonalsium:

1. The Night

2. The Stone

3. The Wind

4. The ???  

Makes me wonder if there used to be a spren of Truth that was perhaps killed or coma-fied at some point since we get so much mention of Truth in the story.  Maybe during the shattering?
 

The horneaters mention a god of the water though, so maybe that is a candidate. The pure lake could be a hint as well that there was a water deity. The planet is mostly water, so a water deity makes a lot of sense. 

Time?

[Argenti he/him]

It wouldn't fit with the rest of them to be concepts, the rest are all psychical things, Time is possible, but I think the sea is more likely. I wonder if there's a singerform for breathing underwater?

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 hours ago, Argenti said:

It wouldn't fit with the rest of them to be concepts, the rest are all psychical things, Time is possible, but I think the sea is more likely. I wonder if there's a singerform for breathing underwater?

The Horneaters say the Gods of the Water helped them build thier home in the mountains, so maybe that is a clue that water is still around but hiding. Maybe the 4th moon had a lot of water and it crashing down brought is with it. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

18 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

We know the moons were there before the shards arrived, correct?

So to me the moons were likely for 4 spren of Adonalsium:

1. The Night

2. The Stone

3. The Wind

4. The ???  

Makes me wonder if there used to be a spren of Truth that was perhaps killed or coma-fied at some point since we get so much mention of Truth in the story.  Maybe during the shattering?
 

The horneaters mention a god of the water though, so maybe that is a candidate. The pure lake could be a hint as well that there was a water deity. The planet is mostly water, so a water deity makes a lot of sense. 

5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

The Horneaters say the Gods of the Water helped them build thier home in the mountains, so maybe that is a clue that water is still around but hiding. Maybe the 4th moon had a lot of water and it crashing down brought is with it. 

My only guess is Time. The Wind said in ch 86 that Time is her cousin - this could be metaphorical, or literal.

And I agree, rather than the 4th moon being of some hidden Shard, I think it represents either a dead Old Magic spren, or Adonalsium himself. Do we know that there were 4 moons before the Shattering? What if there was just one moon and during the Shattering it was shattered as well into 4 pieces, one of which fell on Roshar? 

Rosharan moons are very small, comparable to Phobos, which is around 11 km in radius - that's not a lot of space for water. However, Phobos is way too small to even have liquid water on the surface, because it needs an atmosphere and for that you need more mass. Without atmosphere, water would evaporate, ice too because it's too close to the sun.

Spoiler

Peter Ahlstrom

Roshar's moons are much much closer than our moon. Their elliptical orbits bring them closer to Roshar's surface during the night than geosynchronous altitude.

Robot Aztec

Are the tides funky for moons then? Or are moons too small?

Peter Ahlstrom

They are very small. Think Phobos and you'll be in the ballpark.

Miscellaneous 2014 (Feb. 27, 2014)

 

[LiftisaDragon]

On 12/11/2024 at 5:36 PM, Elder said:

The chasmfiends (and the Reshi Island Greatshells) value boldness.  That sounds more like Valor than anything… though it seems to me that Valor isn’t involved… yet.  Could be autonomy.  

Makes me wonder if mandras haven’t been Spren of valor this entire time

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Here is the quote from the book about the chasmfiend singing.

Spoiler

Chasmfiends could sing. Each of the beasts rose on an array of feet, turning a thick neck skyward and releasing a QUARTET of harmonizing notes, for they could call with multiple voices at once. Venli had been warned, but she still thought it remarkable, as she found something familiar in the notes. They vibrated within her, deep down to her gem heart. There were tones to the planet, separate from the rhythms her people heard. Perhaps these were the tones of the gods. But if that was the case, why four?

I think a 4th shard hiding in the system could be really cool if done correctly. For instance, the Iriali. 

This is what SR hoid says:

Spoiler

“Im a puppet for raw investiture, propped up and speaking like a sock on a Childs hand.” He cocked his head. “Damn. Is this how the Iriali feel all the time? No wonder they’re so storming odd’

I think the theory that the Iriali are Reason / Valor is very solid right now. So yea, there was a 4th shard in the system technically, but it appeared to everyone else to be just a group of migratory people. 

[adouloumis]

A bit of a hasty theory here, feel free to poke holes. My hypothesis is that the moons correspond to the Dawnshards and not to the Shards invested in Roshar and thus the 4th moon is an indication of the Dawnshard that is different from the others and not a hiding shard (though I like that theory too).

We assumed that because there were 3 Shards and 3 moons, they correspond to each other, perhaps falling in Brandon's trap using the shard colors for the moons. But:

1)The whole system was made by Adonalsium for some puprose, predating the arrival of the Shards.

2)There is no mention in Tanavast's POVs to any shard creating moons.

3)Tanavast does not consider the possibility that another shard is there as a result of the 4th moon's existence. And that is specifically after searching for other shards. So he does not think that the moons and the shards are connected.

4)I find something very sus about Venli's description of the chasmfiend singing. She mentions in WaT that these are PERHAPS the tones of the gods:

Quote

Chasmfiends could sing. Each of the beasts rose on an array of feet, turning a thick neck skyward and releasing a QUARTET of harmonizing notes, for they could call with multiple voices at once. Venli had been warned, but she still thought it remarkable, as she found something familiar in the notes. They vibrated within her, deep down to her gem heart. There were tones to the planet, separate from the rhythms her people heard. Perhaps these were the tones of the gods. But if that was the case, why four?

But she knows the tones of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. From RoW:

Quote

 

It felt wrong to be using his Light to practice her Surgebinding, but the stones whispered that it was well. Odium and his tone had become part of Roshar, as Cultivation and Honor—who had not been created alongside the planet—had become part of it. His power was natural, and no more wrong or right than any other part of nature.

Venli searched for something else. The tone of Cultivation. Odium’s song could suffuse her, fueling her powers and enflaming her emotions, but that tone … that tone had belonged to her people long before he’d arrived. While she searched for it, she listened to her mother’s songs in her mind. Like chains, spiked into the stone so they’d remain strong during storms, they reached backward through time. Through generations.

 

So why does she now say that PERHAPS these were the tones of the gods? I think that what she listens to here are the Dawnshards, not the Shards in Roshar. A Dawnshard would also explain why a Shard cannot see there, the creation of Anti-Light and the weird enhancement of investiture during the Odium/Honor clash and Everstorm/Highstorm clash.

Now for the speculation: The moons are where the Dawnshards were housed by Ado during Roshar's creation and are still related to them in some way. The one Dawnshard that is different is related to its moon having fallen, probably rendering it unusable/unholdable. The Dawnshard shrouds the area from Shardic vision but still interacts with large amounts of Investiture in its vincinity. Odium placed his well there during his clash with Honor, masking it with Honor's strike against Natan and the Dawnshard. From WaT:

Quote

Until, Timbre guessed, someone arrived who was bonded to both a spren of Odium and a spren of Honor. Venli. Had Odium somehow masked his pool using Honor? Or was it something else? What had the stones said …

Pieces of the sky, fallen here. Watched over by strange people. Secrets even the gods didn’t understand.

I like the 4th Shard theories and I think there is textual/metatextual evidence to support them. But I think if there is a 4th Shard in the 4th moon, that is specifically because of its properties in hiding things and not the other way around.  And I could see how a shard (say Reason) took a Dawnshard post Shattering, incapacitated it in some fashion to prevent Ado's reform and then sat there hiding, while its neighborhood grew crowdy. Then tasked the new, strange people (Aimians most likely) that Tanavast/Venli mention to do the same for a different Dawnshard, which they then took to their new home after Honor smashed their old one.

 

 

 

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, adouloumis said:

A bit of a hasty theory here, feel free to poke holes. My hypothesis is that the moons correspond to the Dawnshards and not to the Shards invested in Roshar and thus the 4th moon is an indication of the Dawnshard that is different from the others and not a hiding shard (though I like that theory too).

I think that makes the most sense. I would give you a rep if I still had one today... 

The strange people are most definitely Sleepless, as in Day 3 epigraphs we had Sleepless writing about travelling to the 4th moon and during Venli's journey she saw a purple Cremling, which most likely was a Sleepless too. They know about Odium's perpendicularity and the broken moon and it's probably because they know it's related to Dawnshards. WaT ch 41 epigraphs:

Quote

We must travel to the Well of Control, within the shroud of the fragments of the dead moon.

WaT ch 70:

Quote

To her right, a purple cremling sat atop a bulbous frond. It seemed to be watching her, and she hummed a happy rhythm to it.

[Elder]

What about the Purelake.  Gigantic, freshwater body with a ton of holes in the floor and invested fish (kinda like that one Island with invested birds)… 

The epigraphs mentioned the “Well of Control, within the shroud of the fragments of the dead moon."

Odium… could be control?  But I doubt it.  Sounds more like Autonomy.

Nevermind.  Control sounds exactly like Retribution, and that’s definitely Narak.

 

Edited December 13, 2024 by Elder

[TheoreticalMagic]

If there is a fourth Shard and its been here this whole time, without anyone knowing....it definitely fits the parameters of "one that just wants to hide and survive" - it was already on Roshar when the others got there, having been Invested in the fourth moon that crashed into it, and it couldn't just up and leave Roshar once the others got there without them realizing it had been there, which maybe Reason didn't want them to know for whatever reason (heh)....and then by the time Odium got there, it figured there was REALLY no way to up and leave without him noticing it, so instead it decided to shelter in place and just hide and survive, trying to outlast all the others and their conflict.

Which also fits with the fragments of the shattered moon reacting to Honor and Odium's conflict AND messing with Shard sight.....its Reason, deliberately throwing sand in their eyes every time their conflict brings them near enough to discovering its presence.

And I could easily see Reason finding a way to nudge things in a preferred direction by subtly influencing things like the discovery of Towerlight....and I believe Brandon's also said that the Shard that just wants to hide and survive might have at some point changed its mind about that actually being the best path forward and adopting a different approach.

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 12/13/2024 at 12:14 PM, adouloumis said:

A bit of a hasty theory here, feel free to poke holes. My hypothesis is that the moons correspond to the Dawnshards and not to the Shards invested in Roshar and thus the 4th moon is an indication of the Dawnshard that is different from the others and not a hiding shard (though I like that theory too).

We assumed that because there were 3 Shards and 3 moons, they correspond to each other, perhaps falling in Brandon's trap using the shard colors for the moons. But:

1)The whole system was made by Adonalsium for some puprose, predating the arrival of the Shards.

2)There is no mention in Tanavast's POVs to any shard creating moons.

3)Tanavast does not consider the possibility that another shard is there as a result of the 4th moon's existence. And that is specifically after searching for other shards. So he does not think that the moons and the shards are connected.

4)I find something very sus about Venli's description of the chasmfiend singing. She mentions in WaT that these are PERHAPS the tones of the gods:

But she knows the tones of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. From RoW:

So why does she now say that PERHAPS these were the tones of the gods? I think that what she listens to here are the Dawnshards, not the Shards in Roshar. A Dawnshard would also explain why a Shard cannot see there, the creation of Anti-Light and the weird enhancement of investiture during the Odium/Honor clash and Everstorm/Highstorm clash.

Now for the speculation: The moons are where the Dawnshards were housed by Ado during Roshar's creation and are still related to them in some way. The one Dawnshard that is different is related to its moon having fallen, probably rendering it unusable/unholdable. The Dawnshard shrouds the area from Shardic vision but still interacts with large amounts of Investiture in its vincinity. Odium placed his well there during his clash with Honor, masking it with Honor's strike against Natan and the Dawnshard. From WaT:

I like the 4th Shard theories and I think there is textual/metatextual evidence to support them. But I think if there is a 4th Shard in the 4th moon, that is specifically because of its properties in hiding things and not the other way around.  And I could see how a shard (say Reason) took a Dawnshard post Shattering, incapacitated it in some fashion to prevent Ado's reform and then sat there hiding, while its neighborhood grew crowdy. Then tasked the new, strange people (Aimians most likely) that Tanavast/Venli mention to do the same for a different Dawnshard, which they then took to their new home after Honor smashed their old one.

 

 

 

Building off this theory, I'm going to add three more speculations:

1) The shattered moon is the fourth Dawnshard. (That is to say, the shattered moon is currently holding one of the four Divine Commands). Perhaps all four moons were Dawnshards at one point, before the Seventeen took the four Commands and used them to Shatter Adonalsium. Anyway, at some point in between the Shattering and Honor and Cultivation arriving on Roshar, one of the Commands was returned to the moon that once held it.

2) The command for the Moon Dawnshard is "Destroy". We already know two of the Commands are "Change" (something into something else) and "Exist" (keeping something as itself). It's logical to guess that the other two are something like "Create" (making something out of nothing) and "Destroy" (making something into nothing).

3) After it was invested in the moon, the Command was turned on itself, shattering the moon and making it fall from the sky. The fragments of the broken moon are collectively the fourth Dawnshard, and to extract the Command it would be necessary to find and unite them all together. Something like Thanos's trick in Endgame, where he used the Stones to reduce the Stones to particles and scatter them across the universe so they couldn't be used again.

Edited January 24, 2025 by Aeshdan