adouloumis

Yes, I know there are a million threads like this one. But there is a reason for that: its fun to make them. So here goes my effort. And now we know all 16 shards and half the Dawnshards so with only two missing pieces we maybe have a real shot at figuring it out. Presuppositions 1) I assume that the missing two Dawnshards are along the lines of Unite/Bind and Divide/Break. We have no evidence to that and could easily be along the lines of Feel and Think to account for the many Shards that are cognitive concepts. However I think the Dalinar is Unity thing is related to a Dawnshard, so we go with this. Obviously if this is wrong, everything else here is wrong as well. So for the purposes of this thread the 4 Dawnshards are: Change: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that something change, adapt, or become something new" Exist: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that something comes alive, perseveres or remains unchanged" Unite: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that two become one, that something is added or what has been decreed remains bound" Break: "the will and knowledge of a deity demanding that one becomes two or that something is lessened" 2) I assume that each Dawnshard manipulates a spiritual quantity. Fortune for Change the quantity relating to the future. Identity for Exist since this has to do with the sense of self. Connection of course for Unite. And that leaves Investiture for Break (taking from the era 2 spiritual feruchemical table, this is a very classic line of theorizing). However the allomantic/feruchemical tables are stated to be works in progress, enhanced as Scadrial's understanding of the cosmere increases. So I postulate that this table is wrong and there is a 4th spiritual quantity that is yet unknown to Scadrial. I think that quantity will be related to the Anti-Light creation (and will probably reach Scadrial during the next era). Let's call it Phase (since it is the phase that changes to cause destructive interference with normal Light) and correlate it with the 4th Dawnshard of Break. 3) I assume that Adonalsium was split as following: The 4 Dawnshards split his body of investiture into 4 Clusters, assigning it Intents according to their Commands. Then in order to prevent his chance of reforming the murderers did it again into each cluster. So let's say, after the first splitting they took the Change Cluster and "filtered" it again into 4. So you have the Change-Change Shard, Change-Unite Shard, Change-Exist Shard etc. This is again a very classic line of theorizing and supported by the mural in Aimia. However, in combination with the 2nd presupposition this leads into the following: There are 4 Shards that their Intent corresponds to a Dawnshard Command and 12 that their Intent corresponds to 2 Dawnshards. If indeed the Dawnshards manipulate spiritual quantities it stands to reason that the 4 Shards with singular Dawnshardic command are each the best at manipulating their respective quantity, while each of the other twelve have some affinity to two of the quanitities but are not the best at anything. This aims to explain differences between the Shards such as their ability to see the future. If this line of speculation is correct, there will be one Shard that corresponds to Change-Change that will be the best at seeing the future, three more will be better than the others (Change to Exist etc.) and the twelve others will have some capacity but are about the same. 4)This line of thinking provides the limitations I imposed during the characterisation of the Shards in their Dawnshardic components. i) Cultivation is better than Honor in future sight. ii) Preservation is better than Ruin in future sight iii) Stated in WaT by T-Odium is that Odium and Honor are similar while Ruin and Preservation are different. I assume this means that they belong to the same Cluster iv) Ruin and Odium both refer to their passion, in italics. I will reference the relevant wob soon but this is deliberate and relevant. While this could be a cultural thing between Ati and Rayse or something else entirely, I take it to assume that they belong to the same cluster. Another line of speculation that I decided to ignore is how Ruin and Preservation are unable to create by themselves, but able to do so together. Since it is stated that the Dawnshards are the power of creation it would make sense that all 4 Dawnshards are represented between them. I was however unable to make this work. Assigning Shards to their Dawnshardic components The reasoning up to here is the part I am most proud of, the individual assignments get messy and are very much subject to interpretation of words. I find myself changing my mind constantly and will continue to do so until we have more information. I will assume that each intent is described in a form of "X in order to Y" eg. "Exist in order to Exist" or "Exist for the sake of Existence". So in order of descending certainty: Honor: Unite for the sake of Unity The divine sense of oaths and laws, even natural ones. Honor again and again binds others, even other Shards to agreements, he makes sense as the master of Connection. Cultivation: Exist for the sake of Change The divine sense of boundless growth. She is better at future sight than Honor and this makes sense if Change is one of her Dawnshardic components, allowing her an affinity for Fortune. Ruin: Break for the sake of Breaking The mindless force of entropy, devoid of any reason to destroy other than destruction itself. If the presuppositions are correct this would make him also a master of Phase, the best at annihilating other investiture through anti-Light (anti-mists?). Odium: Unite for the sake of Breaking Hatred unites people but its always towards the lessening of something. This also puts Odium into a Cluster with both Ruin and Honor, sharing a Dawnshardic component with each. Autonomy: Break in order to Exist I do not claim to understand what Autonomy as a divine sense even means, but this seems very much in alignment with what she does, breaking herself into avatars. Whimsy: Change for the sake of Change. In my opinion this feels very much fitting for the Shard of Whimsy, though I could easily see this reversed with Culti. Preservation: Change for the sake of Existence This one I admit is a tad of a strech, that Preservation is part of Change. I think the more natural fit would be Exist for the sake of Existence. But I tried to fit this with my presupposition 4ii and I think that makes sense, since Preservation does take actions and is not a complete force of stasis as Ruin says. This classification puts him both at being better than Ruin at future sight while also making them completely independent in terms of Clusters, so it would make sense for Harmony to have trouble keeping them both. Reason: Exist for the sake of Existence Ok, hear me out. Consider it from a Cartesian perspective: "I think therefore I am". To exist can mean to persevere but also can mean to become aware. I think it makes some sense that the exist^2 Shard is the one referencing sentience. Also I think it makes sense if this is the Shard that tries to hide and survive, perhaps the Vessel tried to name the Shard Reason, but the actual Intent being something else and leading to cowardly behaviour. Endowment: Exist in order to Unite If we consider this Unite more in the sense to increase, to make something more, then I think this fits Endowment well. From here on these streches will be common, but I think that even if we saw the actual answer then some stretching is going to be required in order to fit all these terms and words neatly. Devotion: Unite to Exist This makes sense to me as the sense of love, how we need to come together and how necessary it is for all of us. Now for the real spec: For the following Shards we know close to nothing and can only guess at what they try to do. Thus I assigned them in vibe-based fashion but I hold no attachment over these. If anyone has any idea that makes sense that would be very helpful. Dominion: Exist to Break To assert dominance over others can be seen as breaking/lessening them. Mercy: Change for the sake of Unity To me mercy does imply a temporal aspect, an evolution from a state of non-forgiveness to one of well mercy, so it can be seen as change for the sake of bringing people together. Invention: Break to Change Breaking down the old to create something novel seems in line with what this Shard does in creating mega-structures. Valor: Break for the sake of Uniting To be valorous is to becoming more after being less, so I am going with this (honestly the last 3 are almost random) Ambition: Unite for the sake of Change Unite in to bind more things to you (Sorry guys, I will rethink this tomorrow, I have been at this for 5 hours and words have lost all meaning). Virtuosity: Change for the sake of Breaking Perhaps some artsy explanation? I do not understand Virtuosity. So tl;dr is the following table (underscored the parts that are almost certainly wrong): Cluster of Exist Exist for the sake of Existing: Reason, master of Idenity Exist for the sake of Change: Cultivation, affinity to Identity and Fortune Exist for the sake of Unity: Endowment, affinity to Identity and Connection Exist for the sake of Breaking: Dominion, affinity to Identity and Phase Cluster of Change Change for the sake of Change: Whimsy, master of Fortune Change for the sake of Existing: Preservation, affinity to Fortune and Identity Change for the sake of Unity: Mercy, affinity to Fortune and Connection Change for the sake of Breaking: Virtuosity, affinity to Fortune and Phase Cluster of Unite Unite for the sake of Unity: Honor, master of Connection Unite for the sake of Existing: Devotion, affinity to Connection and Identity Unite for the sake of Change: Ambition, affinity to Connection and Fortune Unite for the sake of Breaking: Odium, affinity to Connection and Phase Cluster of Break Break for the sake of Breaking: Ruin, master of Phase Break for the sake of Existing: Autonom, affinity to Phase and Identity Break for the sake of Changing: Invention, affinity to Phase and Fortune Break for the sake of Uniting: Valor, affinity to Phase and Connection Some additional points of disprovability of this theory, apart from the pressupositions, as any theory should have: 1) The capabilities of future sight etc. of the Shards are due to their vessel's intelligence/ability 2) The pattern of one Shard being the best at something (let's say future sight) followed by six who have some affinity for it and nine who have none, is not observed. So thanks for reading and hope that yet another thread of the same old topic is not too dreadful. Now I am going to stop procrastinating and go write the paper in physics I have due, instead of speculation in fantasy metaphysics. Looking forward to your answers!

1) I think that is very likely. And the more I think about it, I think Reason was the one who brought the Dawnshard back. Worldhoppers couldn't have come before Honor and Cultivation invested their perpendicularities and the Dawnshards aren't sentient as far as we know. So it had to be someone with FTL capabilities, making a Shard our only known entity capable of such a feat. 2) I personally do not think there will be a Create Dawnshard with them being "the powers of creation" and Investiture not being able to be created or destroyed. I think it will be something along the lines of "Unite" and "Divide". But its pretty much speculation. 3)This seems likely to me.

A good point but we do not know the relationship between Adonalsium and the Beyond. And it is equally likely that whatever entity claimed him, simply allowed him to pass on. Also a good point. But this time, the one being pulled in a vision was a Shard Vessel himself and while Kaladin was one of Odium's many moving parts, Dalinar in the constest as Honor had Odium's 100% undivided attention. So I would think that this task is some orders of magnitude more difficult.

This makes a lot of sense. It also explains why Dalinar is claimed by another. The parable certainly hides something and it just does not fit Honor like the preWaT spec was thinking. Nohadon is somebody important and powerful enough to hide from Odium. I think think this Ado=Nohadon fits a lot better with Dalinar's journey of becoming a man of God, rather than Nohadon being another Shard. After we have seen him denouncing Honor and seeing in person Tanavast's folly I would find it weird if Dalinar ended up taking advive from another lower case g god.

A bit of a hasty theory here, feel free to poke holes. My hypothesis is that the moons correspond to the Dawnshards and not to the Shards invested in Roshar and thus the 4th moon is an indication of the Dawnshard that is different from the others and not a hiding shard (though I like that theory too). We assumed that because there were 3 Shards and 3 moons, they correspond to each other, perhaps falling in Brandon's trap using the shard colors for the moons. But: 1)The whole system was made by Adonalsium for some puprose, predating the arrival of the Shards. 2)There is no mention in Tanavast's POVs to any shard creating moons. 3)Tanavast does not consider the possibility that another shard is there as a result of the 4th moon's existence. And that is specifically after searching for other shards. So he does not think that the moons and the shards are connected. 4)I find something very sus about Venli's description of the chasmfiend singing. She mentions in WaT that these are PERHAPS the tones of the gods: But she knows the tones of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. From RoW: So why does she now say that PERHAPS these were the tones of the gods? I think that what she listens to here are the Dawnshards, not the Shards in Roshar. A Dawnshard would also explain why a Shard cannot see there, the creation of Anti-Light and the weird enhancement of investiture during the Odium/Honor clash and Everstorm/Highstorm clash. Now for the speculation: The moons are where the Dawnshards were housed by Ado during Roshar's creation and are still related to them in some way. The one Dawnshard that is different is related to its moon having fallen, probably rendering it unusable/unholdable. The Dawnshard shrouds the area from Shardic vision but still interacts with large amounts of Investiture in its vincinity. Odium placed his well there during his clash with Honor, masking it with Honor's strike against Natan and the Dawnshard. From WaT: I like the 4th Shard theories and I think there is textual/metatextual evidence to support them. But I think if there is a 4th Shard in the 4th moon, that is specifically because of its properties in hiding things and not the other way around. And I could see how a shard (say Reason) took a Dawnshard post Shattering, incapacitated it in some fashion to prevent Ado's reform and then sat there hiding, while its neighborhood grew crowdy. Then tasked the new, strange people (Aimians most likely) that Tanavast/Venli mention to do the same for a different Dawnshard, which they then took to their new home after Honor smashed their old one.

This is a very interesting theory but my main qualm with it would be that Shallan has said the truth that she killed her mother. I think it is safe to assume that Lightweavers cannot lie in their truths. How would this theory explain that? There is some wiggle room in that their spren decide what constitute truth and the Cryptics are weird but I fail to see how this would be anything but a blatant lie.

So about Ishar's motive we know this: I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man. —The Stormfather For him to die really, he would need to be out of the Oathpact. Until Jezrien at least.

Ishar is able to summon a perpendicularity in RoW and the Stormfather is unsure as to how he does it. It could of course be the Bondsmith Honorblade but it seems to me Ishar has access to a large splinter of Honor or even the Stormfather himself without somehow the Stormfather knowing it. Though he does try to steal Dalinars connection so maybe that is not right. I reread the RoW scene and I found nothing of note to support the StormFaker is Ishar theory except a vague dislike between the two. However it seems that Ishars deterioration of mental health is recent. The rest of the heralds consider him the sane one, so it could be that it started after this event.

I really like the Ishar hacked into the stormfather's connection with gavilar theory. Lines up with motives and the timeline. The StormFaker is more humanlike than the Stormfather and it would make sense for Ishar to want to replace himself with Gavilar. Also we know Ishar is capable of this from RoW and that he has a strong connection to the other Heralds. There is even the textual evidence of the Stormfather seeming like two people to Gavilar and seeing the Stormfather's face when StormFaker was distressed from the Herald's death. As for the Words, it could refer to the Third Ideal of the Bondsmith -> give it to me (the responsibility) but not quite, or it could be something different. But perhaps to join the Oathpact you need an oath, and Ishar based the KR orders on that.

Woah.

We know that some Shards are better at future sight than others. Cultivation being better than Honor (and Odium probably) and Preservation being better than Ruin. But we also know that the Shards are equal in power, so I think it is reasonable to ask the question: At what are the other Shards better? We know that future sight is intimately tied with a quantity called Fortune, which is a Spiritual Realm property. And we know of two more similar properties, Connection and Identity. So this theory is thus: While certain Shards can manipulate Fortune more ably, others can manipulate these other properties. To add to this, Honor was able to "bind" Odium in the Roshar system, so this implies (perhaps) that Honor's ability to use connection is greater than that of Odium. So, that would make Honor a Connection shard. This is to my knowledge the most concrete evidence that facilitates this theory. One could go on to speculate for the rest of the Shards, but we have few enough direct comparisons between them. But to add an additional level of theorising: if there are four of these quantities, this could go on to make for a second grouping of 4, to separate along with the 4 Dawnshards, the whole of Adonalsium in 16 parts (so Cultivation is the part of Change that manipulates Fortune). In Spiritual side of the Feruchemy table Fortune, Connection and Identity are gathered together alongside Investiture. Now, that poses a problem since we know that each Shard is an equal infinity in the amount of Investiture and thus no Shard should be able to weild a greater amount of Investiture. So I would also theorize that there is a fourth quantity of the Spiritual Realm to go along these three and that the feruchemic table is missing/incorrect once more. What do you guys think?

So I am not sure this is the correct subforum but I wanted the discussion to include potential RoW clues. One thing that I never understood, and I have never seen theories about (though I am sure there are plenty) is why the Skybreakers of all orders were the ones that did not disband at the Recreance. This is the relevant quote. It just never made much sense to me. Not the Willshapers who are freedom-fighters, not the Dustbringers who are always described as the most dubious of orders. But it was the Skybreakers, who value the letter of the law above all others. Subterfuge? That doesn't sound very Skybreakery. Nale almost certainly had a heavy hand in this, especially given that he was present in BAM's capture. But I cannot think of any good ideas about their reasoning. It seems though as if it is a clue about the true purpose of the Recreance. And given that the next book is of the Skybreakers and where we will finally see the Recreance and Mishram's capture I believe (and hope), now is the time to discuss these things. Does anybody have any solid theories?

But what does being the Herald of Truth has to do with Kaladin? I spoke specifically about the Herald of Kings. And actually, I search RoW for Herald of Truth and it seems we were both wrong. As for the Dawnshard, I meant the Unity Dawnshard that is supposedly the Rosharan system. I do not know about you but I do not think I got the full mechanism of Dawnshards from Rysn's book. Heck, I can barely say what exactly a Dawnsahrd is, much less how someone becomes it. This very topic we discuss whether Kelsier became one through some unknown process, so I think we cannot say it simply must follow exactly what Rysn's Dawnshard did.

What? I was talking about Jezrien. Also, neither Battar, nor Kalak is referred to as the Herald of Truth to my knowledge, and it particularly does not make sense for Kalak. I would guess that is the nickname for Pailiah, you know the patron of the Truthwatchers. We know almost nothing about Dawnshards so this seems quite the bold (and baseless) claim. I was thinking along the lines that one of the Dawnshards that is different from the others like Brandon said is perhaps one that is broken/splintered.

Agreed, this seems very probable and I like it a lot.

What troubles me with the "He Who Quiets" title is that it was taken from El by R-Odium for being a human sympathizer and then given to a human? That makes little sense. And "Voice of Lights" runs to similar problems though it seems it was Raboniel who did that, so maybe? But El's beliefs and relationships with the different Odiums seems deeper than what we saw and quite important.

I think it refers to Kaladin as well, not Dalinar. Whatever happens with Dalinar, either he becomes Odium's pawn or continues the path to Bondsmith, which is to be pious, to advise. A large part of his journey after all is stepping back from authority. Meanwhile Kaladin is on the path of Windrunners. To protect and lead. Their patron was the Herald of Kings. So I believe that death rattle refers to when Kaladin will swear his 5th ideal, picking up the spear he left behind in RoW, along with Dalinar's crown and tower, leading humanity. Further speculation: It is the moment of the little circle above Kaladin's chapters. Where a spear carries an unknown glyph, accompanied with more spears. But I do agree that Dalinar is becoming a Dawnshard, whatever that means.

I was searching for BAM WoBs and I fell on some very interesting ones.

This is amazing. It opens so many ways to think about. So let me see. If the Heralds die when they are with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms aka no bodies and no Oathpact/ties to Honors. And Jezrien is completely gone. The spren, that too are cognitive entities, when the oaths get broken they do not die (as they retain some personality according to Maya's example). So it could mean that they lose Connection with Honor to the Spiritual instead, perhaps forming with Odium/BAM. And they have on the Physical in the form of the shardblades, right? Or that does not count because they have no mental presence there?

I always thought that rule was remiscient from a treaty of the ancient singers with the ancient humans for the latter to stay in Shinovar where the ground is not rocky but grassy. So for the Shin the stonewalkers are those who broke the pact with the singers or it has simply become a cultural heritage. What basis this has I am not sure honestly. Note though that the Shin practice Stone Shamanism so they should have some rituals revolving around stone. It is very exciting to see the Shin finally in the next book. Brandon has managed to be very mysterious about them unlike the singers.

Cultivation probably, even if it gives off some huge monogreen vibes (for the mtg afficionados). To grow as a person is the very essence of human strife in my opinion though having honor or some sort to pair it with seems preferable than growth for the sake of growth, which is (quite literally) cancerous. Next Invention or Dominion probably, depending on what exactly the latter entails.

Yeah I have but I probably need again. I can't really remember the scene but this seems to be what was implied. I will check it out. Thanks guys!

I believe there was a tidbit on what exactly Odium did on Hoid in the epilogue. I believe he said Odi destroyed a bit of memory but NOT gained it for himself. Brandon also said we have seen this before. I am not very sure where. Any ideas?

You are of course right about Lift, I brainfarted for a second. And perhaps about Kaladin too, but I tend to think it is mostly one of the other unexplained reasons, rather than the 4th Ideal That made me think however. We have seen that the suppresion essentially blocks the powering of surges with Stormlight (Lift is doing it with Lifelight and Venli with Voidlight). So why were the radiants knocked out? Most of them weren't using Stormlight at the time of the first supression so what made them unable to retain consciousness? How this works exactly? If you have access to Stormlight but not too much you get knocked out?

I think Adhesion and Kaladin remaining awake are separate things. For Adhesion: Probably the sibling did not have adhesion anti-virus since only Radiants could use it, so Raboniel could not reverse it. Windrunners were closer to waking due to their access to this surge. As for Kaladin and Lift remaining awake I think it has to do with their investiture levels. I believe the "he was close to 4th ideal" was a red herring. Kaladin for most RoW was as far away from that ideal as possible and if it was that it would have been explained in this book Somehow Kaladin was more invested than Teft to resist the suppresion by falling asleep and that investiture was less than the difference between a Third and a Fourth Ideal Windrunner. Similiar to how (mistborn spoilers) So the question is how Kaladin gets that extra investiture? I don't think he has anything like a spike or breath so probably something to do with his Tanavast connection.