adouloumis

So about Ishar's motive we know this: I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man. —The Stormfather For him to die really, he would need to be out of the Oathpact. Until Jezrien at least.

Ishar is able to summon a perpendicularity in RoW and the Stormfather is unsure as to how he does it. It could of course be the Bondsmith Honorblade but it seems to me Ishar has access to a large splinter of Honor or even the Stormfather himself without somehow the Stormfather knowing it. Though he does try to steal Dalinars connection so maybe that is not right. I reread the RoW scene and I found nothing of note to support the StormFaker is Ishar theory except a vague dislike between the two. However it seems that Ishars deterioration of mental health is recent. The rest of the heralds consider him the sane one, so it could be that it started after this event.

I really like the Ishar hacked into the stormfather's connection with gavilar theory. Lines up with motives and the timeline. The StormFaker is more humanlike than the Stormfather and it would make sense for Ishar to want to replace himself with Gavilar. Also we know Ishar is capable of this from RoW and that he has a strong connection to the other Heralds. There is even the textual evidence of the Stormfather seeming like two people to Gavilar and seeing the Stormfather's face when StormFaker was distressed from the Herald's death. As for the Words, it could refer to the Third Ideal of the Bondsmith -> give it to me (the responsibility) but not quite, or it could be something different. But perhaps to join the Oathpact you need an oath, and Ishar based the KR orders on that.

Woah.

We know that some Shards are better at future sight than others. Cultivation being better than Honor (and Odium probably) and Preservation being better than Ruin. But we also know that the Shards are equal in power, so I think it is reasonable to ask the question: At what are the other Shards better? We know that future sight is intimately tied with a quantity called Fortune, which is a Spiritual Realm property. And we know of two more similar properties, Connection and Identity. So this theory is thus: While certain Shards can manipulate Fortune more ably, others can manipulate these other properties. To add to this, Honor was able to "bind" Odium in the Roshar system, so this implies (perhaps) that Honor's ability to use connection is greater than that of Odium. So, that would make Honor a Connection shard. This is to my knowledge the most concrete evidence that facilitates this theory. One could go on to speculate for the rest of the Shards, but we have few enough direct comparisons between them. But to add an additional level of theorising: if there are four of these quantities, this could go on to make for a second grouping of 4, to separate along with the 4 Dawnshards, the whole of Adonalsium in 16 parts (so Cultivation is the part of Change that manipulates Fortune). In Spiritual side of the Feruchemy table Fortune, Connection and Identity are gathered together alongside Investiture. Now, that poses a problem since we know that each Shard is an equal infinity in the amount of Investiture and thus no Shard should be able to weild a greater amount of Investiture. So I would also theorize that there is a fourth quantity of the Spiritual Realm to go along these three and that the feruchemic table is missing/incorrect once more. What do you guys think?

So I am not sure this is the correct subforum but I wanted the discussion to include potential RoW clues. One thing that I never understood, and I have never seen theories about (though I am sure there are plenty) is why the Skybreakers of all orders were the ones that did not disband at the Recreance. This is the relevant quote. It just never made much sense to me. Not the Willshapers who are freedom-fighters, not the Dustbringers who are always described as the most dubious of orders. But it was the Skybreakers, who value the letter of the law above all others. Subterfuge? That doesn't sound very Skybreakery. Nale almost certainly had a heavy hand in this, especially given that he was present in BAM's capture. But I cannot think of any good ideas about their reasoning. It seems though as if it is a clue about the true purpose of the Recreance. And given that the next book is of the Skybreakers and where we will finally see the Recreance and Mishram's capture I believe (and hope), now is the time to discuss these things. Does anybody have any solid theories?

But what does being the Herald of Truth has to do with Kaladin? I spoke specifically about the Herald of Kings. And actually, I search RoW for Herald of Truth and it seems we were both wrong. As for the Dawnshard, I meant the Unity Dawnshard that is supposedly the Rosharan system. I do not know about you but I do not think I got the full mechanism of Dawnshards from Rysn's book. Heck, I can barely say what exactly a Dawnsahrd is, much less how someone becomes it. This very topic we discuss whether Kelsier became one through some unknown process, so I think we cannot say it simply must follow exactly what Rysn's Dawnshard did.

What? I was talking about Jezrien. Also, neither Battar, nor Kalak is referred to as the Herald of Truth to my knowledge, and it particularly does not make sense for Kalak. I would guess that is the nickname for Pailiah, you know the patron of the Truthwatchers. We know almost nothing about Dawnshards so this seems quite the bold (and baseless) claim. I was thinking along the lines that one of the Dawnshards that is different from the others like Brandon said is perhaps one that is broken/splintered.

Agreed, this seems very probable and I like it a lot.

What troubles me with the "He Who Quiets" title is that it was taken from El by R-Odium for being a human sympathizer and then given to a human? That makes little sense. And "Voice of Lights" runs to similar problems though it seems it was Raboniel who did that, so maybe? But El's beliefs and relationships with the different Odiums seems deeper than what we saw and quite important.

I think it refers to Kaladin as well, not Dalinar. Whatever happens with Dalinar, either he becomes Odium's pawn or continues the path to Bondsmith, which is to be pious, to advise. A large part of his journey after all is stepping back from authority. Meanwhile Kaladin is on the path of Windrunners. To protect and lead. Their patron was the Herald of Kings. So I believe that death rattle refers to when Kaladin will swear his 5th ideal, picking up the spear he left behind in RoW, along with Dalinar's crown and tower, leading humanity. Further speculation: It is the moment of the little circle above Kaladin's chapters. Where a spear carries an unknown glyph, accompanied with more spears. But I do agree that Dalinar is becoming a Dawnshard, whatever that means.

I was searching for BAM WoBs and I fell on some very interesting ones.

This is amazing. It opens so many ways to think about. So let me see. If the Heralds die when they are with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms aka no bodies and no Oathpact/ties to Honors. And Jezrien is completely gone. The spren, that too are cognitive entities, when the oaths get broken they do not die (as they retain some personality according to Maya's example). So it could mean that they lose Connection with Honor to the Spiritual instead, perhaps forming with Odium/BAM. And they have on the Physical in the form of the shardblades, right? Or that does not count because they have no mental presence there?

I always thought that rule was remiscient from a treaty of the ancient singers with the ancient humans for the latter to stay in Shinovar where the ground is not rocky but grassy. So for the Shin the stonewalkers are those who broke the pact with the singers or it has simply become a cultural heritage. What basis this has I am not sure honestly. Note though that the Shin practice Stone Shamanism so they should have some rituals revolving around stone. It is very exciting to see the Shin finally in the next book. Brandon has managed to be very mysterious about them unlike the singers.

Cultivation probably, even if it gives off some huge monogreen vibes (for the mtg afficionados). To grow as a person is the very essence of human strife in my opinion though having honor or some sort to pair it with seems preferable than growth for the sake of growth, which is (quite literally) cancerous. Next Invention or Dominion probably, depending on what exactly the latter entails.

Yeah I have but I probably need again. I can't really remember the scene but this seems to be what was implied. I will check it out. Thanks guys!

I believe there was a tidbit on what exactly Odium did on Hoid in the epilogue. I believe he said Odi destroyed a bit of memory but NOT gained it for himself. Brandon also said we have seen this before. I am not very sure where. Any ideas?

You are of course right about Lift, I brainfarted for a second. And perhaps about Kaladin too, but I tend to think it is mostly one of the other unexplained reasons, rather than the 4th Ideal That made me think however. We have seen that the suppresion essentially blocks the powering of surges with Stormlight (Lift is doing it with Lifelight and Venli with Voidlight). So why were the radiants knocked out? Most of them weren't using Stormlight at the time of the first supression so what made them unable to retain consciousness? How this works exactly? If you have access to Stormlight but not too much you get knocked out?

I think Adhesion and Kaladin remaining awake are separate things. For Adhesion: Probably the sibling did not have adhesion anti-virus since only Radiants could use it, so Raboniel could not reverse it. Windrunners were closer to waking due to their access to this surge. As for Kaladin and Lift remaining awake I think it has to do with their investiture levels. I believe the "he was close to 4th ideal" was a red herring. Kaladin for most RoW was as far away from that ideal as possible and if it was that it would have been explained in this book Somehow Kaladin was more invested than Teft to resist the suppresion by falling asleep and that investiture was less than the difference between a Third and a Fourth Ideal Windrunner. Similiar to how (mistborn spoilers) So the question is how Kaladin gets that extra investiture? I don't think he has anything like a spike or breath so probably something to do with his Tanavast connection.

The best one I have seen is Keeper(s) of Written Truths. It references Shinovar and fits the palindrome quite well.

Thanks for having me, guys! My favourite book (period) would be WoK. Huge Kaladin fanboi, here.

I am talking specifically about the False Desolation before the Recreance. There were no Fused during the False Desolation. I am not sure about the thunderclasts, but those seem to be in Braize as well (being ancient singer souls). And also if we did not see an all out war, as in not seen the full force of Odium (the R version), then why did he agree to terms with Dalinar, why was he convinced he could lose? It seemed to me that this was the best he could do right now, which seems to imply that he was somehow limited compared to the past.

Hey guys, new member here. I finished reading RoW and processing it and wanted to discuss something that picqued my interest but I saw no dicussion about (if I missed something please point me out, there were so many threads). First thing that drew my attention is how Kaladin was able to defeat the Pursuer with barely any powers, a foe that was known for taking down at least several 4th Ideal Radiants. That in itself is perhaps not that surprising, given that Kaladin is somehow special in addition to being trained to fight without powers. The second is a quote from Jasnah in the book: "Our battlefields are a careful balance of Radiant against Fused, Shardbearer against Regal, soldier against soldier." That implies that the forces of the enemy in the present are equivalent to those of Team Dalinar. A team with 50 Windrunners, some Edgedancers and a few other Radiants sprinkled in, with only Jasnah being of the 4th Ideal. But in Dalinar's visions we saw at the at least 300 Windrunners and Stonewards, all of whom are described as having Plate and Blade. We can assume that there were perhaps lots more Knights from the other orders. And those forces, apparently far greater than the current strength of Team Dalinar during the Recreance had to face Ba-Ado-Mishram and not Odium himself, giving the singers Regal forms but no Fused and thus no Surgebinders. And yet those Radiants of the past seemed to have so much trouble that they had to follow a risky gambit that Melishi proposed, with apparently disastrous consequences. What posed a challenge for them? Was the infighting (amongst the Windrunners and Skybreakers) more than that? Perhaps a civil war? Was it Honor's deterioration? Was BAM able to provide for Surges amongst her subjects? Perhaps due to connecting with the Parshmen directly? What do you think?

Hey everyone guys, long time lurker, decided to join so I can pitch on those sweet, sweet SA5 theory discussions. Wish you all the best.