Some open questions

[Sythrin]

I have some open questions. Maybe you can explain them to me.
1. What is up with the 4th moon?
2. Why is there a Shardpool at the Shattered plains if Ishar claimed that Odiums was in Shinovar.
3. How did Talns sword get to Shinovar?
4. What exactly can you now do with Tension? We saw it at the fused but the Radiant can stiffen fabric for example with it. But is that not much weaker, once you unlock Shardplate?
5. What was up with Jasnah childhood? Why was she improsined?
6. Is Shallan pregnant?
7. Was Renarins vision of the Heralds and among them was Kaladin and Syl. Does it mean that Syl is now coperal?
8. How did Ishi make Spren corporal? How did he give them bodies and why did he had these experiments in the mountains in RoW and not in Shinovar?
9. Why is the sky clouded now on Roshar? What reason does Retribution have to make all the land sun deprived?
10. Will Flora and Fauna now die on Roshar?
11. Was Ashy destroyed through Devision and basicly the atmosphere was set ablaze, like how the scientist feared when they created the nukes?
12. What is up with Moash now?
13. Can you use normal gems. One that are framed from mines, used just the same way as those from animals?
14. Why would the Heralds ever return to Roshar? The moment they give up the oathpact again, couldnt Retribution just suck up all the spren?
15. Have I understood right, already bonded dead shardplate can now be summoned and does not need stormlight, but non bonded blade cannot be bonded and plate cannot be repaired?
16. What was the point of going into the visions? I dont understand Cultivations plan.
17. What can the black fisher exactly do now?
18. What does the 5th ideal do exactly?
19. Will Jezriens sword change, because it was not part of the new oathpact?
20. Was the small part that splintered from Honor made into Kaladins spear?
21. Can Retribution not just destroy the Heralds the moment they leave their oathpact, as he has authority over all of Honor? Just like Odium could have destroyed the Fused or remade an Unmade?

EDIT: 5th I meant Jasnah.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Sythrin

[Fyodor32768]

5. What was up with Shallans childhood? Why was she improsined?
I assume that this has something to do with her inherited mental illness.

16. What was the point of going into the visions? I dont understand Cultivations plan.
Sanderson had a ton of backstory to fill to make his story make sense and decided to do a giant dump.

21. Can Retribution not just destroy the Heralds the moment they leave their oathpact, as he has authority over all of Honor? Just like Odium could have destroyed the Fused or remade an Unmade?

I don't think that they leave the oathpact by coming to Roshar. The oathpact goes on.

I

[StanLemon]

32 minutes ago, Fyodor32768 said:

16. What was the point of going into the visions? I dont understand Cultivations plan.
Sanderson had a ton of backstory to fill to make his story make sense and decided to do a giant dump.

While I'm sure that's a big part of it, it also makes sense in the context of the story. Dalinar needed to Connect with Honor and the visions was how Cultivation planned to do it.

[NattyBo]

Cross posting a question:

 

One thing that’s bothering me from a Cosmere perspective - the events of this book are so cataclysmic, but we have at least 2 Mistborn books and probably others Im not thinking of that are chronologically after SL1-5.

in light of that it kinda makes 0 sense to me that Cosmere aware characters don’t bring up the events at all, even obliquely? It would be a huge topic of conversation for anyone who knows anything about the shards, no? 

[logicless.bt]

Best as I know:

3. The Shin retrieved it, likely at Ishar's bidding. Another Herald may have been involved.

1, 5, 10, 18, 20. We don't know yet.

17. We don't know yet, except that she can Elsecall. Since all Unmade are aligned with Radiant orders, she's aligned with Elsecallers. No clue what her price is, or what other powers she has.

6, 13. Yes.

[StanLemon]

10 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

in light of that it kinda makes 0 sense to me that Cosmere aware characters don’t bring up the events at all, even obliquely? It would be a huge topic of conversation for anyone who knows anything about the shards, no? 

We don't really see any Cosmere aware characters in the first 3 Era 2 books, even the Kandra aren't particularly Cosmere aware. And by TLM, it's a little bit of old news being 10 years old. But we do still get references to it, like MeLaan helping Horneaters for instance. 

Edit: Also this line from TLM "That’s four primary systems we can’t visit without extreme danger, if you count Roshar."

Edited December 10, 2024 by StanLemon

[Fyodor32768]

11 minutes ago, NattyBo said:

 

Cross posting a question:

 

One thing that’s bothering me from a Cosmere perspective - the events of this book are so cataclysmic, but we have at least 2 Mistborn books and probably others Im not thinking of that are chronologically after SL1-5.

in light of that it kinda makes 0 sense to me that Cosmere aware characters don’t bring up the events at all, even obliquely? It would be a huge topic of conversation for anyone who knows anything about the shards, no? 

We don't have many books taking place afterwards but I believe that there are some general references to what's happening in Roshar in The Lost Metal.

[+mdross81 he/him]

4 hours ago, Sythrin said:

2. Why is there a Shardpool at the Shattered plains if Ishar claimed that Odiums was in Shinovar.

I don’t recall the book saying that Odium’s pool was in Shinovar, just that after taking up the power Ishar used it to Connect to Shinovar.

From chapter 119:

Quote

“Honor’s power refuses the touch of men,” Nale said, “and his perpendicularity moves. Cultivation’s power at the Peaks is carefully monitored by her spren, and cannot be accessed by mortals. But Odium’s power … it dislikes him, thinks him weak. Mishram found its hiding place, and gained the ability to Connect to all of the singers. Ishar knew this, and…”

“Damnation,” Kaladin whispered, feeling cold. “The Bondsmith Herald took up the power of Odium?”

“Only a fraction of it,” Nale said. “It let him Connect to this land and become a god to the people here …

So Mishram found the pool under the Shattered Plains and Ishar visited that pool to take some of its power.

[Cocoa he/him]

4 hours ago, Sythrin said:

3. How did Talns sword get to Shinovar?
4. What exactly can you now do with Tension? We saw it at the fused but the Radiant can stiffen fabric for example with it. But is that not much weaker, once you unlock Shardplate?
5. What was up with Jasnah childhood? Why was she improsined?
6. Is Shallan pregnant?
7. Was Renarins vision of the Heralds and among them was Kaladin and Syl. Does it mean that Syl is now coperal?
8. How did Ishi make Spren corporal? How did he give them bodies and why did he had these experiments in the mountains in RoW and not in Shinovar?
9. Why is the sky clouded now on Roshar? What reason does Retribution have to make all the land sun deprived?
12. What is up with Moash now?
14. Why would the Heralds ever return to Roshar? The moment they give up the oathpact again, couldnt Retribution just suck up all the spren?
15. Have I understood right, already bonded dead shardplate can now be summoned and does not need stormlight, but non bonded blade cannot be bonded and plate cannot be repaired?
16. What was the point of going into the visions? I dont understand Cultivations plan.
17. What can the black fisher exactly do now?
18. What does the 5th ideal do exactly?
20. Was the small part that splintered from Honor made into Kaladins spear?
21. Can Retribution not just destroy the Heralds the moment they leave their oathpact, as he has authority over all of Honor? Just like Odium could have destroyed the Fused or remade an Unmade?

3. Ishar sent people to retrieve it. Stealing it was the hard part; once you have it, you can just bond it and invisibly carry it back to Shinovar.

4. Everything we saw the Focused Ones do, with their explosive strength coming from coiled ribbons of flesh, was them using Tension. If we're just talking Radiants, then properly-applied Tension can probably be used to control strands of fabric like tentacles, less strong than Plate but more versatile. I also believe you can use Tension to walk on the surface of liquids.

5. We don't know the details, but she seems to have suffered some kind of mental breakdown as a child, and subsequently got to deal with Roshar's subpar understanding of mental healthcare. The most new information we learned in this book was that it apparently happened while Navani was traveling and that on her return things improved for Jasnah. Since her initial thought when her budding radiant bond started making shadows act weird was "not again," we also don't know if this was a mundane mental illness or something more mystical.

6. Almost assuredly, between her and Adolin's almost explicitly having sex after returning to Urithiru, her "cradling" her stomach, and the comment about needing to survive not just for herself.

7. She's probably corporeal (or at least can be corporeal) while she's hiding with the minds of the Heralds in the Spiritual Realm, since Shallan's cryptics and and enlightened spren were all human-sized and able to move things while they were there, like if they were in the Cognitive Realm.

8. Bondsmith Shenanigans. Probably something exceedingly esoteric involving taking their connection to the Cognitive Realm and using it to staple them to the Physical Realm or something.

9. In part, it can be used to force people to pray to him for Warlight, since iirc that can be used to grow crops in the absence of sunlight. It's also possible that it isn't entirely deliberate on his part, it's just a natural result of the interaction between his Shards.

12. Physically: he got Marsh'd. Psychologically: he's doing the same thing that Amaram and Taravangian did before him where they get a chance to just stop (Dalniar's offer of redemption at Thaylen field for Amaram, becoming Odium and therefore being able to call off the war for Taravangian, regaining his emotions for Moash) and instead to choose to double down on their past mistakes, because otherwise they have to fully grapple with the fact that they were in the wrong

14. We have no idea the specifics of this new oathpact, but it's reasonable to assume that the conditions for Retribution reabsorbing the spren is different than the conditions for the Fused escaping Braize. Just from the fact that Ash and Taln are viewpoint characters for two of the back five books, we can be pretty sure that the Heralds will Return at some point.

15. Traditionally you didn't really bond plate the same way you did a blade, you just wore it and used stormlight to power it and repair it. So at this point, with all the stormlight being gone, dead plate is pretty much useless, and unbonded blades just have to be carried around rather than being able to be dismissed and summoned (though I suspect they'll eventually figure out a way to power dead shards with warlight, especially with BAM back in play). Adolin, the Unoathed, and their recovering deadeye partners are something new, which is why they can summon and dismiss their plate like a radiant can and don't need light to power it.

16. Dalinar needed to experience the things he saw in the visions first hand (especially Tanavast's perspective, which the Stormfather would never have shown him if not backed into a corner like he was). If Cultivation had just told him about the history of Roshar, it might have made him think, but it likely wouldn't have given him the understanding that he needed to swear the fourth ideal and take up Honor. Whether or not Cultivation expected him to ultimately give up power like he did is unclear, but from her prompting him to say the Words it's pretty clear that she was trying to shape events so that he would Ascend.

17. Open Stargates Elsegates in exchange for some kind of payment. We don't know what the price is, only that it's something that gives a Shard pause, so presumably it's more than just an ability that needs a lot of voidlight to power. Interestingly, this struck me as similar to how Dakhor teleportation (which presumably uses investiture mechanics similar to the Surge of Transportation) requires a human sacrifice.

18. Same thing as the other oaths. Give you a burst of power (apparently a really big one) when you swear it, makes your body better at holding stormlight, and makes your healing and surges more energy-efficient.

20. The Honorspear, Kaladin's Herald empowerment, and whatever's going on with Syl apparently inheriting a portion of the Stormfather's power and authority. Those are the immediately obvious places that the power went, though I wouldn't put it past Brandon to have this be a Chekhov's gun and that there's more going on with the escaped power than we've seen so far. Could go either way.

21. Probably not. Assuming that the new Oathpact doesn't protect the Heralds themselves from being absorbed, the Powers that make up Retribution might rebel against Taravangian trying to destroy the Heralds. Reforging the Oathpact, at great potential personal cost, in order to protect the spren was an intensely Honorable action, and as we saw with Sja-Anat and Leshwi, the Shard Odium actually likes being challenged to a certain degree even when it goes against the will of the vessel. Put those two together and Retribution would probably resist destroying the Heralds outright.

[Argenti he/him]

10 hours ago, Sythrin said:

3. How did Talns sword get to Shinovar?

Notably, we're going to get WAY more information on this come the stormlight RPG, the adventure "stonewalkers" is supposedly all about this. 

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

8 hours ago, Cocoa said:

14. Why would the Heralds ever return to Roshar? The moment they give up the oathpact again, couldnt Retribution just suck up all the spren?

21. Can Retribution not just destroy the Heralds the moment they leave their oathpact, as he has authority over all of Honor? Just like Odium could have destroyed the Fused or remade an Unmade?

The oathpact does not end when they need to return. So as long as they do not break their oath or the Oathpact the spren are protected.
Sure he could destroy them, but it would be difficult for him to directly oppose an oath with Honor, as that is the Power/Shard, not the vessel.

[alder24]

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

1. What is up with the 4th moon?

No idea, I think it was meant to represent either Adonalsium, or a 4th Old Magic spren which got killed before Honor arrived at Roshar. I doubt it's representing another Shard. 

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

2. Why is there a Shardpool at the Shattered plains if Ishar claimed that Odiums was in Shinovar.

It wasn't in Shinovar, Odium's Shardpool was below the Shattered Plains and that was the pool used by both Mishram and later Ishar. 

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

3. How did Talns sword get to Shinovar?

Shins have Honorblades, they can use Elsecalling to move between CR and PR and switch the blades. Stormlight RPG will feature a story explaining how they got Taln's blade.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

4. What exactly can you now do with Tension? We saw it at the fused but the Radiant can stiffen fabric for example with it. But is that not much weaker, once you unlock Shardplate?

Stiffened fabric doesn't have to be armor, it can be a weapon - a thrown rope with a spike at its end can be stiffened and it would be like a spear, banners or sheet becoming walls and stuff like this. We will see more of it in the future books, but I see a potential for some fun things.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

5. What was up with Jasnah childhood? Why was she improsined?

No idea. We will have to wait for Jasnah's book, which I think is the 10th one.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

6. Is Shallan pregnant?

Yes.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

7. Was Renarins vision of the Heralds and among them was Kaladin and Syl. Does it mean that Syl is now coperal?

That was Kal and Syl, but no, Syl isn't physical. They aren't in any place, their minds are locked in the Spiritual Realm probably, away from Braize - it's a vision. Syl and Nale's spren are there together and Nale's spren took this journey to Braize many times before. 

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

8. How did Ishi make Spren corporal? How did he give them bodies and why did he had these experiments in the mountains in RoW and not in Shinovar?

We don't know, but it's probably similar to how Heralds manifest their own body out of investiture every time they return. He failed to recreate this, it seems spren need to cooperate with him and they all rejected him.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

9. Why is the sky clouded now on Roshar? What reason does Retribution have to make all the land sun deprived?

The Everstorm spreaded all across Roshar. It makes them all depend on him and his light for survival and to get his light, they need to pray to him. He wants them to worship only him.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

10. Will Flora and Fauna now die on Roshar?

They will probably struggle, but I think Retribution will grant them his light - there is no reason not to do it. The lack of crem and nutrients carried by Highstorm might be a problem, but I bet in the end they will adapt and survive. 

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

11. Was Ashy destroyed through Devision and basicly the atmosphere was set ablaze, like how the scientist feared when they created the nukes?

Surges were involved (not Rosharan ones), but we don't know which one. Division is a solid candidate. Dawnshard was also involved. It's not the same as atmospheric ignition speculated by scientists (as that's fusion of nitrogen in the Earth's atmosphere that would wipe out everything on Earth in a single moment), but similar to it, probably inspired by it. 

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

12. What is up with Moash now?

Hemalurgy was used to restore his sight, but instead of metals, crystal was used, which is new. Because of this, he can see investiture through his spikes, just like inquisitors could see traces of metal everywhere with their metal-spiked eyes.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

13. Can you use normal gems. One that are framed from mines, used just the same way as those from animals?

Yes.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

14. Why would the Heralds ever return to Roshar? The moment they give up the oathpact again, couldnt Retribution just suck up all the spren?

I think the mechanism might be a little bit different now, I think that as long as all 10 Heralds are alive and keep their Oath, spren can't be incorporated into Retribution - even if Heralds choose to return to Roshar. We don't know fully how this will work, we have to see, but because the purpose of the Oathpact is different now, it can work slightly differently.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

15. Have I understood right, already bonded dead shardplate can now be summoned and does not need stormlight, but non bonded blade cannot be bonded and plate cannot be repaired?

The opposite. Unbound blades and plates can be summoned without Stormlight (but only those that are with Adolin and Maya), but those bonded to Shardbearers, while they can be summoned, they can't be repaired and bonded in the old way without Stormlight. Unbound are something new, a new way of using Deadeye.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

16. What was the point of going into the visions? I dont understand Cultivations plan.

To Ascend to Honor, one needed to understand it. Dalinar had to relive Tanavast life in order to understand what Honor's power wanted and how it felt. 

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

17. What can the black fisher exactly do now?

We don't know. We know she can create Oathgates, but she requires a big amount of investiture at both ends and there is some cost associated with using her. A price that Taravangian will have to pay in the future.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

18. What does the 5th ideal do exactly?

Yeah, we didn't really have any time to explore what it does. I think Radiants will stop leaking light (as each Ideal makes them leak less and less light) and they will use their light even more efficiently, but it doesn't look like either Szeth or Kaladin got something extra out of it. And certainly spren don't merge with their knights and don't become physical like some theories suggested.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

19. Will Jezriens sword change, because it was not part of the new oathpact?

I don't think so. It seems to me that Honorblades are't a part of the Oathpact directly (Heralds are), they are more like a gift that comes with it, granting Surges Heralds used to have before becoming Heralds. But we will see.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

20. Was the small part that splintered from Honor made into Kaladins spear?

I believe so and into Kaladin himself - Heralds hold parts of Honor.

On 12/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, Sythrin said:

21. Can Retribution not just destroy the Heralds the moment they leave their oathpact, as he has authority over all of Honor? Just like Odium could have destroyed the Fused or remade an Unmade?

If they leave their Oathpact. As long as they don't break their Oath, like they did during Aharietiam, he can't do anything to them. Returning to Roshar doesn't count as breaking the Oath.

[Bnaya]

7. The answer is yes. There a couple of mentions but here is one from ch. 145

"Syl found his hand. And he could feel her grip it."