Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (No Cosmere Edition)

[Asininity]

Without sugarcoating it, I disliked the book. Honestly, it felt like everything that made me resonate with Stormlight got shredded. We went from an epic fantasy steeped in heroism and chivalry to a bizarre debate club arguing about the fine print of contracts and nitpicking the definitions of words instead of focusing on their meaning. Thrilling.

I don't want to get into lesser sins of Winds and Truth, since there's already plenty of that. Let’s focus on Szeth, since this is his book, right? Wrong. His entire arc was hijacked by Kaladin.

I already had Stormblessed fatigue after Rhythm of War, and somehow, Wind and Truth made it so much worse. Each time Szeth had an opportunity to grow, Kaladin swooped in and saved the day. I've hoped for inspiring story about moral agency, atonement, purpose, humility and justice, and what we've got? None of that.

Despite seeing faults in Heralds and his own blind obedience, Szeth still cant stand up to authorities. Nale and Ishar just jerk him around and Kaladin has to fight for him. Might aswell play a flute while dueling a Herald. This scene would be so much better if Szeth would actually confront Nale, while Wandersail played in the background. What could've been.

And then we get to the Fifth Ideal. Szeth becomes the first Radiant in thousands of years to swear it. Monumental achievement, except it's hollow, absolutely meaningless. Kaladin does it better, easily. Apparently Nale imposed his own structure on the Skybreakers post-Recreance because he thought the old oaths were lost. So sure, skipping the whole crusade bit makes sense narratively, but wouldn’t Szeth finding his own way have been the perfect culmination of his journey? Instead, he skips straight to the destination and its so anticlimactic, he has to start over.

What about atonement for his crimes? Surely there's a point to all the suffering Ishar subjected him to? Decades of conditioning to withstand torture that Heralds go through? Nope, he folds instantly when Ishar trauma-dumps the gang. Everyone does. Except for Kaladin of course. The perfect penance - becoming a Herald and serving the greater good - is sitting right there, and yet none of that matters.

He gets a closure by killing his family... the only people he still loved and they loved him back. At least Kaladin, doesn't have to fight this battle for him. Oh wait, he kinda does. There's no justice, no redemption, only sadness and helplessness. 

I knew Justice was never Brandon's favorite Ideal, but man he did Skybreakers dirty

[Sedside she/her]

@Asininity, wow, I really like your way of thinking and analysis, would be glad to know your opinion about the other storylines too!

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Now, after a few weeks, my digested thoughts. I am afraid, the book was among the weaker Stormlight books. Obviously it disappointed expectations. That is inevitable if you have that much hype and the freshness of the first books is gone. There are only so many plot twist you can add.

But still it was weaker book. Why?

1. The majority of the book was flashbacks. Sure, they were not called that, but using the Spiritual Realm to learn about the past amounts to the same thing by another name.
2. Some plot lines (the Renarin/Rlain story line, Ghostbloods capturing a Herald, Shallan kelling Mraize & Iyatil had almost no relevance for the book)
3. Two major plot lines (Thaylen City & the Shattered Plains) are resolved in such a way that much of what happens in the book is in vain
4. Spoiler

   The ending of Dalinar's story is a bit of a reprise to be frank

   (Scadrial)
5. The introduction of Wind and the Oathpact 2.0 felt a bit like a deus ex machina
6. Szeth's plot line was ended in an exceedingly creative way, but I did not like it.

[IcedOutPenguin He/Him]

On 12/28/2024 at 11:45 AM, Asininity said:

I don't want to get into lesser sins of Winds and Truth, since there's already plenty of that. Let’s focus on Szeth, since this is his book, right? Wrong. His entire arc was hijacked by Kaladin.

I disagree, i feel that Kaladin amplified the arc with Szeth having to choose between his gods (Nale and 12124(kinda)) and what Kaladin is telling him.

On 12/28/2024 at 11:45 AM, Asininity said:

This scene would be so much better if Szeth would actually confront Nale, while Wandersail played in the background. What could've been.

No it would not have been, this fight was incredible and definitely one of the best parts of the book.

On 12/28/2024 at 11:45 AM, Asininity said:

And then we get to the Fifth Ideal. Szeth becomes the first Radiant in thousands of years to swear it. Monumental achievement, except it's hollow, absolutely meaningless. Kaladin does it better, easily. Apparently Nale imposed his own structure on the Skybreakers post-Recreance because he thought the old oaths were lost. So sure, skipping the whole crusade bit makes sense narratively, but wouldn’t Szeth finding his own way have been the perfect culmination of his journey? Instead, he skips straight to the destination and its so anticlimactic, he has to start over.

I agree with this, surprisingly. 

On 12/28/2024 at 11:45 AM, Asininity said:

He gets a closure by killing his family... the only people he still loved and they loved him back. At least Kaladin, doesn't have to fight this battle for him. Oh wait, he kinda does. There's no justice, no redemption, only sadness and helplessness. 

Oh, yeah. his family, the ones who are basically being tortured for eternity by Ishars fused return thing. and Kaladin just fuels this fight and doesn't actually participate. 

Overall WaT was great. Sure, it had some bad points (like the entire Shallan story just being boring), but had some of the most epic scenes I have ever read, like Dalinar doing some final grand thing and defeating Odium, and Kaladin becoming a herald (I saw that coming many books ago), that is rivaled only by some scenes in The Hero of Ages.

[elihaun]

JUST finished the book (like, less than five minuets ago. I'm a slow reader).  The things that I remember most of the book are the following (ignore typos. I'm too lazy to look up name spellings):

1) While I get the Renarin/Relain romance, I feel like it is a bit 'rushed'.  I felt like Renarin was (obviously) autistic in past books, but I did not get the feeling like this pairing was going to happen. The whole romance felt a bit rushed

2) a LOT of the predictions I saw before the book came out (based on old books/the sample chapters) were 100% correct.  Adolin getting the deadeyes to help, Gav being odiums champion, and Honor/Odium fusing.  so, while the whole Kaladin ending was (to me) unexpected, a LOT of the major ending plot points were a bit telegraphed.  

3) I am ready to see where books 6-10 go, but at the same time I hope Sanderson has time to work on other cosmere/non-cosmere books.  like, some of them have been on hold for a WHILE. 

the rithmitist.  I just want a sequal to the rithmitist.

4) Some of the plot points were too rushed.  I feel the Nale redemption was too fast, as was the concept of renouncing oaths.  Think of it. I cant remember ANY other example of oaths broken (other thank shallan) from a main character until the last 3/4th of this book. a major thing THIS important should have happened way earlier to have the same level of emotional gut punch and foreshadowing.  Like, Moash should have been of the 1st/second ideal when he revoked his oaths and killed elokhar.  Maybe had someone renounce there oaths in Rhythm of war?  I just feel like it was a 'easy out' at the end of the (first arc of) the series.  it should have been shown much more than a way distant, historical idea.  It should have been shown as a horrible, last ditch think before three people (Dalinar, Sigzil, Seeth) did it so close together.

5) lastly, I hope Sanderson has time to SLOW DOWN now that this book is finished.  I think something that we take for granted was the ability for Sanderson to sit back and think.  This entire series would be nothing if Sanderson did not have time to work on ideas and throw out the first book in the series and rewrite it.  We have come to expect him to put out books all the time now, but some of his best works are books that he finished, and then COMPLETLY reworked.  I fear that, in being forced to adhere to such a tight schedule we have made it so he is unable to reach his full writing potential.  or maybe I'm just over thinking it

 

Overall I loved the book, and I plan to reread it again soon!  (but as audiobook for the second read)

On 12/8/2024 at 8:21 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

Cultivation sucks.  It doesn't get discussed much in here, but it seems pretty clear that at virtually every turn, she screwed up and made things worse.  And yeah, there's a whole lot of blame to go around for how things turned out in the end, but the lion's (dragon's?) share definitely belongs to her.

Yeah, she positioned the WORST possible person to be the new odium into place.  like, she was as dragons in the cosmere are shown to be: too smart and haughty for her own good.

On 12/9/2024 at 2:48 PM, crumblyburgers said:

UNTIL you break it down and see how his instruction of Towers really shapes the entire book.

I am interested to see if there will be a 'towers' game come out.  Honestly it reminded me of some real-life wargames that use cards/tiles instead of models, something like Battles of Kursk or Combat Commander: Europe

[elihaun]

On 12/13/2024 at 6:10 PM, Aela Nox said:

I wonder how much of that is down to the technological advances in Nomad’s time? I haven’t finished reading yet but it seems the cosmere is far more advanced from some of the things he says. Th

Also, where is the fourth Bridge during the last 10 days?  I can not remember it anywhere in WaT.  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, elihaun said:

Also, where is the fourth Bridge during the last 10 days?  I can not remember it anywhere in WaT.  

What would you do with it? Ferry troops? The places they need to move troops to are colocated with oathgates.

[Raven Wilder]

On 12/31/2024 at 11:36 AM, elihaun said:

I cant remember ANY other example of oaths broken (other thank shallan) from a main character until the last 3/4th of this book. a major thing THIS important should have happened way earlier to have the same level of emotional gut punch and foreshadowing. 

I mean, there's Kaladin in Words of Radiance. 

 

Edited January 1, 2025 by Raven Wilder

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Raven Wilder said:

I mean, there's Kaladin in Words of Radiance. 

 

Yeah, and a main plot point of RoW was Shallan had broken her oath, so that is like 1 3/4ths of our main characters who have broken oaths. And the Recreance. There are plenty of examples and foreshadowing for it. 

The Spren have said this whole time that humans can't be trusted with Oaths. Skybreakers were structured in a way so that the Spren are the ones making the oaths in order to protect themselves from human perfidy. 

The difference of the oaths broken in WaT and (maybe?) others historically, are that these oaths were broken for the purpose of what is "right" rather than blind Honor. Dalinar through his breaking of oaths is trying to teach Honor that it's about more than just blind Oaths. 

You could argue that the Recreance was about what is "right" as well. Sig's broken oath was literally done to protect Vienta, the heart of Windrunner oaths. Szeth's broken oath is honestly the only one in this book that I have a real problem with narratively. It didn't make sense when it happened and still doesn't to me mostly. 

It felt like (for me) Szeth's broken oath was done strictly for the purpose of setting up the end/epilogue scene between 12124 and Sigzil rather than anything to do with Szeth and his journey

[elihaun]

18 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

I mean, there's Kaladin in Words of Radiance. 

 

I... don't feel like that is comparable.  He was going through a LOT of stuff at the time.  it was not a spur of the moment thing like the three instances in WaT seem to be.  Also abandoning oaths and revoking an oath feels different (might just be me).  As for the Recreance, they had a slow build up to their abandoning their oaths.  It was not a quick snap decision like the three in WaT

 

16 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

The difference of the oaths broken in WaT and (maybe?) others historically, are that these oaths were broken for the purpose of what is "right" rather than blind Honor. Dalinar through his breaking of oaths is trying to teach Honor that it's about more than just blind Oaths. 

Like above, I feel the REAL defference is not right or wrong, it is the build up.  All of the three main revoking of oaths in WaT feel like snap decisions, not something that was built up to like Kaladin, Shallan, or the KR

 

On 1/1/2025 at 4:05 AM, Oltux72 said:

What would you do with it? Ferry troops? The places they need to move troops to are colocated with oathgates

I am more worried about where it landed.  if there WERE people on board, it would be equivalent of the Hindenburg, right? What would happen to fabrials after the ending of the book.  We know spanreads still work, but there is not way to make MORE of them since there is no stormlight.  Maybe Navanis new way of getting the spren to help might work, but I dont remember much about it.

Otherwise, the Tower is the ONLY way to make new spanreads.  one, because spren can still be found there, and secondly because without stormlight, towerlight is the only way catch the spren.  that would make the tower VERY important for communications (especially since Tashic wouldnt have any way to make more spanreeds without the tower

[Nitpicking]

By the way: best single thing in WaT was that Sebarial and Palona finally got married, just as they thought the world was ending (chapter 129, they're wearing wedding ribbons).

[Asininity]

On 12/29/2024 at 7:29 AM, Sedside said:

@Asininity, wow, I really like your way of thinking and analysis, would be glad to know your opinion about the other storylines too!

We got like 15 "main" characters and more side PoVs than I care to count, destructuring all of them would be a massive task. This unfortunately makes the book less enjoyable for me. Pacing suffers because of this, with constant cliffhangers, shifting perspectives and overall lack of focus, it's hard to get invested into each subplot. The momentum just does not build up like it should. I dont want this to be purely negative rant tough.

Taravangian ascended to new heights of hypocrisy, pettiness and cruelty - and I loved it. Coming to terms with his newfound godhood was an interesting development, even if it made him somewhat one-dimensional. But most importantly his portrayal of Odium works. Rayse was promised to be an apocalyptic mass of hatred, vast, all-consuming and he turned out to be an old, tired dude, who hated his job. With Taravangian we got surprisingly humane asshole, that goes out of his ways to make small acts of hatred fell personal. The kind of Odium I can love to hate.
 

Siege of Azir was a nice throwback to what made The Way of Kings so epic. No immortal gods, bending the fabric or reality, just vulnerable people rising to occasion and doing heroic stuff. The magic, still there but receded into background making room for more grounded "conventional" warfare. For me, this shift was the highlight of entire book.

Despite some repetitions and confusing monologues I liked Adolin scenes. Walking around camp, talking to people and being inspiring, woven with brutal combat, while exhaustion and hopelessness slowly builds up was awesome.
And of course there was Taln last stand. Even though we only got glimpse of it, the moment hit with all the weight of Stonesinew myth and completely stole the show. I wish Brandon would lean harder into this "no show, no tell, let people wonder" type of exposition more.

Unfortunately, then came cartoonish and silly Stealing Azir's Throne and invalidated whole thing. Pity.
 

(Philosophical) Battle of Thaylena was not for me. Im not a fan of debate-bro-culture and it initially made me cringe. However after thinking about of more, I've realised it was completely unnecessary. Odium could have taken Thaylena without any of this buffoonery. He wanted a debate, not because it mattered but because he wanted to humiliate and hurt Jasnah. And I can buy into that. 

The problem, however is in the execution. Jasnah is established as someone who lacks emotional intelligence, cold, calulating but extremely logical and competent (drawing interesting parallel to Odium being deity of excessive emotion). Yet none of that came into play, and it's frustrating because fixing it would be very simple.

Jasnah should be able to understand how impossible it would be to win an argument with near-omniscient being. Her engagement with Odium needed stronger, pragmatic reason - like realising the coup was staged. That's the most logical thing since there's no invasion force. She needs to deduce on her own that stalling Odium and luring him to torment her is the only way she can save the day. Its still a debate but at least wouldn't feel like betrayal of Jasnah's character.

Preferably I would rather get an actual coup plot, where Jasnah goes on a witch hunt and is determined to murder all potential agents, making Fen snap and join Odium. Emotion still triumphs over reason and leaves Jasnah is broken.
 

After events of RoW, Kaladin felt more of less a complete character. He often overshadowed the rest and started being overwhelming to me. So in WaT, instead of one we got three:

Sigzil (discount) Captain Windrunner. Since the real one cut off all his connections, someone had to pick up the slack. He goes through the same dilemmas, interacts with the same people, faces the same challenges, gets the same nemesis. Whats is missing is the emotional investment. I don't really know who is this dude, other than regular windrunnery stuff.
Why settle for a cheap knockoff, when the perfect foil stands right there? We could revisit Shattered Plains inside Moash's head. Retreading the same steps that forged Kaladin into a hero but from perspective of a villain, hellbent on undoing everything he fought for. Feels like a missed opportunity to build compelling villain, while still allowing Sigzil to shine. Hell, double down on redundancy and have twisted version of the duel in the highstorm or the Battle of Tower.

Then we get Adolin Stormblessed. While I enjoyed the Siege, it's not lost on me how repetitive it is. Its the same blend of prowess, bravery and leadership, all wrapped in depression and a bit of recklessness we've seen in Kaladin. That said, these qualities were part of what made some of the best sequences in the series, so I’m not really complaining here.

I can't say the same for the Herald of Therapy though. We all knew where this was heading, but felt like completely different character. In the span of a week, he went from catatonic depression to dancing and playing music in the wind. It diminished the weight of his previous struggles and theres nothing left for him to overcome.
The whole therapy angle fell flat for me. He's the single most powerful warrior on humanity's side, and decision to put down the spear felt more like rejection of duty rather than cathartic resolution. Adding to this, was the jarring injection of 2024 vocabulary, weird meta-quips from Ishar, and Kaladin explicitly stating how easy everything came to him - as if the author was breaking the fourth wall to apologise for running out of ideas.
 

The journey through the Spiritual Realm felt less like a meaningful exploration of the series’ deeper cosmology and more like a plot device designed to occupy certain characters while ensuring Roshar’s defense wasn’t trivialized. The entire quest seemed structured to keep pivotal figures out of the main conflict, with Ba-Ado-Mishram serving as little more than a macguffin. I expected more. 

Suprisingly, Shallan's side quest was more tolerable than expected. With cringle-inducing humor and romance toned down, her chapters were decent, even if she didn't contribute significantly to the larger narrative. On the other hand, Navani, Ren and Rlain did not resonate with me at all, maybe its just not my kind of jam.

Dalinar's arc during this journey was just underwhelming. He didn't uncover any profound knowledge that would justify such a big shift in his character. All he did was watch Tanavast being a bastard and understand - once again - that not-so-gods were not perfect. Not exactly earth shattering.

His betrayal of Honor felt personal - and I suspect that was entirely Brandon's intention. Perhaps this was more than betrayal of Ideals Dalinar fought for throughout the series, but a betrayal that was meant to resonate on an emotional level with the reader.
I still can't believe that Dalinar Kholin, of all people, would do something like this.
But isn't that exactly how every betrayal ever felt? The disbelief, sense of loss and confusion that comes from getting hit from a blindside - those hit oddly close to real life and Sanderson conveyed this feeling masterfully. So I'm both impressed and salty about it.

The thing that upsets me the most is that, the weight and gravitas behind the cornerstone of the series - Oaths - were taken away. Up until this point, the act of swearing an Oath was portrayed as deeply self-sacrificing gesture. Something that required immense personal growth, pain and struggle. Oaths weren't supposed to be convenient or beneficial to the character; they symbolised a commitment to ideals even at a personal cost.
Here, Oaths are being broken left and right, dismissed as "stupid", or made in circumstances where they conveniently benefit the character. While I can appreciate the parallel being drawn - breaking an Oath as righteous and sacrificial - it still feels like it has stripped the entire system of its emotional weight. And I did not like that one bit.

Overall ther has been a massive rust in tonality and overarching theme of the Stormlight Archive. Perhaps this was the author's intention, to highlight that Honor - the force that bound everything together is truly dead. Adding another layer to signify that Odium now reigns supreme. Telling us to expect more passion, impulsiveness and subjective morality than somewhat rigid structure Honor built. Not sure how I feel about that yet, guess I'll have to RAFO

[Sedside she/her]

24 minutes ago, Asininity said:

The thing that upsets me the most is that, the weight and gravitas behind the cornerstone of the series - Oaths - were taken away. Up until this point, the act of swearing an Oath was portrayed as deeply self-sacrificing gesture. Something that required immense personal growth, pain and struggle. Oaths weren't supposed to be convenient or beneficial to the character; they symbolised a commitment to ideals even at a personal cost.
Here, Oaths are being broken left and right, dismissed as "stupid", or made in circumstances where they conveniently benefit the character. While I can appreciate the parallel being drawn - breaking an Oath as righteous and sacrificial - it still feels like it has stripped the entire system of its emotional weight. And I did not like that one bit.

Overall ther has been a massive rust in tonality and overarching theme of the Stormlight Archive. Perhaps this was the author's intention, to highlight that Honor - the force that bound everything together is truly dead. Adding another layer to signify that Odium now reigns supreme. Telling us to expect more passion, impulsiveness and subjective morality than somewhat rigid structure Honor built. Not sure how I feel about that yet, guess I'll have to RAFO

Thank you, that's beautiful, I think I like your review much more than the book itself  This part of it in particular. Actually, when I was reading it I've remembered Wit's conversation with the future Herald of Therapy in the 4th chapter. He explicitly said "A virtue is something that is valuable even if it gives you nothing". This whole paragraph reads to me as the enhancement of SA main theme of oaths and honor, and I was expecting it to continue like this throughout the book, so this oathfall in the end looks even more baffling to me now. But I like your suggestion about this twist being a representaion of Honor's death. It sparkles one more hope for the future books in me (though it's probably not good, because I've already decided I have to abandon any hope for Sanderson's writing, but whatever).

Edited January 2, 2025 by Sedside

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

1 hour ago, Asininity said:

Dalinar's arc during this journey was just underwhelming. He didn't uncover any profound knowledge that would justify such a big shift in his character. All he did was watch Tanavast being a bastard and understand - once again - that not-so-gods were not perfect. Not exactly earth shattering.His betrayal of Honor felt personal - and I suspect that was entirely Brandon's intention. Perhaps this was more than betrayal of Ideals Dalinar fought for throughout the series, but a betrayal that was meant to resonate on an emotional level with the reader.
I still can't believe that Dalinar Kholin, of all people, would do something like this.
But isn't that exactly how every betrayal ever felt? The disbelief, sense of loss and confusion that comes from getting hit from a blindside - those hit oddly close to real life and Sanderson conveyed this feeling masterfully. So I'm both impressed and salty about it.

You seem to be on the same page as the Shard of Honor at the end of this book and seem to have not understood the journey that Dalinar did go on to get to this point at the end of the book.

He saw and was shown not just that the Vessels were not perfect, but that the Shards themselves apart from one another are flawed and need to grow.  The only out of the cycle of violence between the Shards themselves (regardless of the Vessels in play) was to sacrifice His oaths and allow Honor time to grow and learn, which to date it had not done, it had just continued to perpetuate the cycle with Odium or hidden within the Spiritual Realm unchanging. 

Quote

The thing that upsets me the most is that, the weight and gravitas behind the cornerstone of the series - Oaths - were taken away. Up until this point, the act of swearing an Oath was portrayed as deeply self-sacrificing gesture. Something that required immense personal growth, pain and struggle. Oaths weren't supposed to be convenient or beneficial to the character; they symbolised a commitment to ideals even at a personal cost.
Here, Oaths are being broken left and right, dismissed as "stupid", or made in circumstances where they conveniently benefit the character. While I can appreciate the parallel being drawn - breaking an Oath as righteous and sacrificial - it still feels like it has stripped the entire system of its emotional weight. And I did not like that one bit.

Overall ther has been a massive rust in tonality and overarching theme of the Stormlight Archive. Perhaps this was the author's intention, to highlight that Honor - the force that bound everything together is truly dead. Adding another layer to signify that Odium now reigns supreme. Telling us to expect more passion, impulsiveness and subjective morality than somewhat rigid structure Honor built. Not sure how I feel about that yet, guess I'll have to RAFO

Hard disagree here. I think the awareness that context matters should make the weight of Oaths far higher on both sides, the level of trust required even higher and working together to ensure that people aren't making blind oaths even greater. To me it pushes the Oaths' import even higher. 

Honor is not dead, but it needs to grow beyond being just about the oath divorced from circumstance and life. It needs to mature to understand that the world is not black and white, oath kept or not kept; that there are contexts that both shape the oaths and when it is right to keep your oath or not. 

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Thank you, that's beautiful, I think I like your review much more than the book itself  This part of it in particular. Actually, when I was reading it I've remembered Wit's conversation with the future Herald of Therapy in the 4th chapter. He explicitly said "A virtue is something that is valuable even if it gives you nothing". This whole paragraph reads to me as the enhancement of SA main theme of oaths and honor, and I was expecting it to continue like this throughout the book, so this oathfall in the end looks even more baffling to me now. But I like your suggestion about this twist being a representaion of Honor's death. It sparkles one more hope for the future books in me (though it's probably not good, because I've already decided I have to abandon any hope for Sanderson's writing, but whatever).

The sacrifice of these Oaths very much cost something, and breaking them very much gave those who broke their oaths nothing (personally) in return. They maintained their virtue through the sacrifice of their oaths, and would have conversely sacrificed it to maintain the Oaths to the detriment of themselves and others. These weren't easy or snap decisions for any of those who did it in this book. 

[Asininity]

10 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Hard disagree here. I think the awareness that context matters should make the weight of Oaths far higher on both sides, the level of trust required even higher and working together to ensure that people aren't making blind oaths even greater. To me it pushes the Oaths' import even higher. 

The context always mattered. Not to the Stormfather who was happy to accept every oath but to character that sworn it. Spren has no mental capacity to discern good vs bad, they draw on perception of their Knights.
I get what you are saying and I would give it benefit of doubt, if not for the book itself doing the opposite.
Both 5th Ideals are perfect examples:
- Szeth swears an Oath then immediately renounces it. Why do so in the first place?
- Kaladin just says it. There is nothing meaningful about it, but comes with solution the problem at hand. Why wouldn't you swear?

On top of that consequences are also diminished, in the past breaking the oath meant lobotomy for the spren. Now Deadeyes are healed and Sigzil spren is slightly annoyed by it.

[Subvisual Haze]

7 hours ago, Asininity said:

Then we get Adolin Stormblessed. While I enjoyed the Siege, it's not lost on me how repetitive it is. Its the same blend of prowess, bravery and leadership, all wrapped in depression and a bit of recklessness we've seen in Kaladin. That said, these qualities were part of what made some of the best sequences in the series, so I’m not really complaining here.

Oh that's a very insightful point.  Ever since tWoK I've been annoyed that Kaladin was never permitted by the plot to return to the role that made me fall in love with him: the suffering heroic leader who inspires everyone around him in hopeless circumstances.  We didn't get Kaladin the leader back, but we did get Adolin at least to play the part.

[Sedside she/her]

7 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

The sacrifice of these Oaths very much cost something, and breaking them very much gave those who broke their oaths nothing (personally) in return. They maintained their virtue through the sacrifice of their oaths, and would have conversely sacrificed it to maintain the Oaths to the detriment of themselves and others. These weren't easy or snap decisions for any of those who did it in this book. 

I don't think so.

Sigzil. I agree that his case is probably the best among them all. I like it myself. What I don't like is lack of consequences. Everyone is alive, Sigzil even got Dawnshard now and also met 12124. So now we know that Radiants can make oaths and break them whenever they want, and nothing bad will happen to either party. Well, Sigzil lost his Windrunner powers, yes, but this sacrifice was immediately nullified by the book itself with Stormfather's death. If we later saw non-Radiant Sigzil in the world of Radiants struggling with his lack of powers and completing his "resurrect Vienta" quest, I would appreciate it, but we know this is not what happens.

Szeth. What was his reason to renounce his oath again? Something like "I don't like my spren, go away, I will find another?" Or "I don't want to do this anymore, I want to live quiet and peaceful life"? I don't even know how to comment it. And again, everyone is alive, the only victim is Szeth's arm, but we all know he couldn't get it back because the Stormlight is gone, and anyway his choice wasn't even shown in the book properly to make it look meaningful and have emotional impact. Look, I'm not saying my boy Szeth can't have quiet and peaceful life. Of course he can. What I don't like is the message. To me it reads like "you should only follow your wishes, do what you want to do, don't listen to the second party".

I mean, just imagine that spren can break the bond at their will too. Imagine Syl coming to Kaladin and saying "you know what, Notum told me that I can now exist in Physical Realm without being obliged to look at your gloomy face every day, so I'm not your spren anymore, bye bye". Sure Syl would never do that, I'm exaggerating on purpose. The problem is that both parties benefit from the bond, but only one party can break it. And so the spren only relies on the Radiant's honor, whether the Radiant decides they no longer want this bond. And in this book honor was truly swept away, break the bond if you want to, screw your spren and their wishes/feelings, only your wishes/feelings matter. I saw this trend with Moash and Adolin in OB and hoped it will play out differently, but unfortunately it went the opposite direction. Even Moash gets his eyes back and is still alive!

Speaking of Adolin, he is at the head of this movement explicitly saying oaths are stupid and telling us the story about a man sitting on a chair for ten years. And suddenly it turns out good to be Unoathed, and they even have blades and armor now. I'm still not sure how it works. Why are deadeyes suddenly alive and well, especially considering it happened before BAM release? What exactly makes a person Unoathed? I mean, if I want to be Unoathed and have my blade and plate, what should I do? Bonding is impossible, oaths are stupid, so how does it work? If a hundred people apply to the job, who gets it? Is it the case I was talking about, the spren deciding whos armor and blades they want to be? Would be nice to see spren leaving in the middle of the battle because of identity crisis or something.

And regarding Dalinar - I don't think that oath revoke was a sacrifice either. I'm not sure if it was even necessary for Dalinar to die after he did what he did, it looks like a plot convenience, but whatever. To me it reads like choosing between two bad options and one good (for Dalinar) option, and the ones who are sacrificed here are Roshar and all the people living in it. To me the way it was written looks like Dalinar just found a way not to kill his grand(son/nephew). I understand it's not exactly what happened, but it reads like that. I've described it in "wat disappointment" topic in more detail.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

I mean, just imagine that spren can break the bond at their will too. Imagine Syl coming to Kaladin and saying "you know what, Notum told me that I can now exist in Physical Realm without being obliged to look at your gloomy face every day, so I'm not your spren anymore, bye bye". Sure Syl would never do that, I'm exaggerating on purpose. The problem is that both parties benefit from the bond, but only one party can break it.

This is actually not correct. Spren have always been able to break the bond on their own, with the only consequence that they lose their Connection to the Physical Realm. It's not necessarily easy, but it can be done safely.
WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Overlord Jebus

Can a spren willingly break their bond anytime between the First and Fifth Oath, with their Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible--

Overlord Jebus

Essentially committing suicide isn't it though--

Brandon Sanderson

I just ascribe to that question-- A spren could at any point break it. Can they break it safely? That's a different question.

Overlord Jebus

Can they break it safely? *laughs*

Brandon Sanderson

There are methods in place where it can be stopped. So yes it can be done. But once you've started into this, once you've chosen on both sides, it's a dangerous process. But yes it can be done, and it can be done safely.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

Quote

Mistborn Spoilers removed:

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically, but since there are spren involved it's not gonna work the same way. It is possible but not gonna be nearly as effective, how about that? Basically since the spren can break the bond in certain instances, you can get it and then immediately lose it.

DragonCon 2019 (Sept. 1, 2019)  

 

 

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

Bonding is impossible, oaths are stupid, so how does it work?

For Adolin, a bond was required. Just not a Radiant bond (which is the only one that requires Oaths), normal Nahel Bonds are just a natural part of Roshar (Singers, Greatshells, Rhyshadium, Skyeels, etc.). This was noted in RoW:

RoW Ch 94: 

Spoiler

Adolin frowned, trying to remember.

“That she spoke,” Blended reminded him. “To you. That friendship exists between you. I sought proof, and found that her name—recorded in old documents of spren treaties—is as you said. A curious fact to find. Indeed.”

Blended strolled around Adolin and studied Maya’s face. “Still scratched out…” she said. “Though a bond between you is.”

“I’m … no Radiant,” Adolin said.

“No. That is certain.” Maya met Blended’s gaze. “But something is happening. 

Hope that helps

Edited January 3, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Sedside she/her]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

This is actually not correct. Spren have always been able to break the bond on their own, with the only consequence that they lose their Connection to the Physical Realm. It's not necessarily easy, but it can be done safely.
WoBs:

I don't accept WoBs as a proof of anything. Until it happens or is mentioned in the book I don't consider it canon. I'm reading a book, not WoBs.

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

For Adolin, a bond was required.

I am asking about Unoathed, not Adolin. And also, it's clearly stated in the book that after Stormfather's death Shardblades can't be bonded anymore, or have I misunderstood?

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

I don't accept WoBs as a proof of anything. Until it happens or is mentioned in the book I don't consider it canon. I'm reading a book, not WoBs.

I'm sorry you don't accept the word of the author. They exist , not to supplant story, but to address things that cannot fit in the stories (we only have so many characters and pages) - if a topic deals with a planned story, it gets a RAFO (even if it's just a possible story that is not planned yet) instead of an answer because Brandon also prefers to answer things in the context of the story, as written.

Your opinion to not like them is valid. Pretending that opinion is invioable fact is not. I'm sorry. 

To me, the difference is - instead of saying: "only one party can break [the bond]." you say "only one party has been shown to break a bond" - there is a world of difference between those two sentiments. Mostly in recognizing that you do not know it to be impossible, you can only say "I have not seen this to be possible yet."

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

And also, it's clearly stated in the book that after Stormfather's death Shardblades can't be bonded anymore, or have I misunderstood?

The previously known "hack" of using a gemstone to create a fake bond with a deadeye blade is what no longer works (please see below) - but it was never a form of bond natural to Roshar - it was always "applying fabrial science to hack Shards post-Recreance."

WoR Ch 67:

Spoiler

Quote

 

“Our breakthrough was realizing that the gemstones in the Blades—used to bond them—might not have originally been part of the weapons.”

He frowned. “That’s important?”

“Yes. If this is true, it means the Blades aren’t powered by the stones. Credit goes to Rushu, who asked why a Shardblade can be summoned and dismissed even if its gemstone has gone dun. We had no answers, and she spent the last few weeks in contact with Kharbranth, using one of those new information stations. She came up with a scrap from several decades after the Recreance which talks about men learning to summon and dismiss Blades by adding gemstones to them, an accident of ornamentation it seems.”

 

Interestingly, this is also why they take 10 heartbeats to summon, the gemstone bonds the blade to the "life" (heartbeat) of the bearer - and uses that to reawaken the blade and pull it through to the Physical Realm.

The natural Nahel bond process still works (and is shown on-screen with the Unoathed) - it's the same type of bond used by most native Rosharan life (and some imports, like Rhyshadium who have learned to develop a Nahel Bond with music spren).

Hope that helps

[Sedside she/her]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm sorry you don't accept the word of the author. They exist , not to supplant story, but to address things that cannot fit in the stories (we only have so many characters and pages) - if a topic deals with a planned story, it gets a RAFO (even if it's just a possible story that is not planned yet) instead of an answer because Brandon also prefers to answer things in the context of the story, as written.

Your opinion to not like them is valid. Pretending that opinion is invioable fact is not. I'm sorry. 

I have two things to say here. First - I am approaching this from a common reader standpoint. I think of myself as a common reader, not a super fan, who googles a lot, reads coppermind and so on. I read the books. I would never have known that WoBs existed, I would probably even never had known that there were other cosmere books, if Brandon had never written that stupid embarrassment of a nonsense the love triangle was. You would never have had me here on this forum, and probably that would have been for the best. Second - I believe some WoBs were proved to be outright lies (or retcon) on multiple occasions already. And so yes, I am not going to count WoBs as something valuable for my analysis of the book's plotline or writing quality.

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

To me, the difference is - instead of saying: "only one party can break [the bond]." you say "only one party has been shown to break a bond" - there is a world of difference between those two sentiments. Mostly in recognizing that you do not know it to be impossible, you can only say "I have not seen this to be possible yet."

This is a valid point. Though I think that 5 enormous books into the series there were plenty of opportunities to introduce this option to the reader.

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

The natural Nahel bond process still works (and is shown on-screen with the Unoathed) - it's the same type of bond used by most native Rosharan life (and some imports, like Rhyshadium who have learned to develop a Nahel Bond with music spren).

That one I think I've missed, how the Nahel bond works with the Unoathed (other than Adolin) and what is it based on, could you please hint at where should I look for?

[Treamayne]

In reverse order:

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

That one I think I've missed, how the Nahel bond works with the Unoathed (other than Adolin) and what is it based on, could you please hint at where should I look for?

We don't know the whole story yet. From what we do know:

Spoiler

• Foreshadowing in WaT was the whole section at the beginning showing that MusicSpren are in the form of horses because they were imagined by horses brought from Ashyn
  • (which was itself foreshadowed in WoR when Syl tells Kaladin that some spren have four genders because not all spren were imagined by humans).
  • Meant to show that Rosharans without a Gemheart can still form a Nahel Bond
• Nahel bond is defined as a bond between a Spren and a Physical Realm being (Words of Radiance epigraphs in WoR).
• Radiant Bonds are further defined as Nahel Bonds reinforced by Oaths to allow for greater power (surges)
  • The Oaths and Radiant Orders codified by Ishar (WoK, WoR, WaT)
• From what we can interpret so far, the bond starts to form when a Shardbearer (or potential Unoathed) recognized the deadeye as a sapient being capable of volition and offers something of themselves to help them recover
  • As shown between Adolin and Maya, WoR, OB, and especially Row at the trial (quoted above) 
  • Adolin considered his Sword to be something special in WoR, he was shown trying to teach the sword how he wanted to use her as a thrown weapon while practicing to fight Szeth.
  • He refused to name her in OB because he recognized she would already have a name and wante to learn that - he deepened their Connection in Shadesmar by caring for her as a person (especially on Notum's ship) to the point where she responds by protecting him against the fused. The bond has been formed by th Battle of Thaylenah when he finds he can summon her faster than 10 heartbeats
  • He defends her sapience repeatedly in RoW and explicitely offers her his strength during the trial. 
• Maya communicates with the forgetten Deadeyes on Adolin's behalf. The part we do not yet know is how the Unoathed Spren chose their bearer when Adolin pulled them through - but it is implied to be similar to Radiant Bonds because the True Spren can sense the Spiritweb of the person to help them find somebody to bond
  • Foreshadowed in WoR when Syl reminds Kaladin that she knew him before they met - because the Wind knew him and led her to him and she could sense his desire to protect on the Battlefield in Alethkar (Cenn)
  • Also foreshadowed in WoR when Syl takes on the appearnce of Shallan before either of them meet her (WoR Ch 9) because Connection is in the Spiritual Realm and echoes before and after an event (also shown in Shallan drawing Ash breaking her statue before she met the Herald  - WoK I-7; WoR Ch 30)

 

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

Second - I believe some WoBs were proved to be outright lies (or retcon) on multiple occasions already.

Examples please?

Because Brandon already says Books trump WoBs, and he points out especially when an answer is on thin ice because it has not been codified - or he simply refuses to answer because it's not decided until it shows up in a book. When a WoB changes a WoB, he is up front about the old answer being changed - and the Arcanum will link the two questions so people know "this has been changed."

As for actual RetCons - he has surprisingly few of those for the volume of stories he has written. But he is up-front about them when they do happen (like the Change to WoR climax between the original Hardcover and the Mass Market release). 

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

if Brandon had never written that stupid embarrassment of a nonsense the love triangle was.

I'm guessing you mean the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thing (that I do not even think of a love triangle, because it really wasn't - but that is a different discussion), but I don't know how that would imply to you that there were other Cosmere stories.
Edit: Thank you for reaching out with that story in PM.

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

First - I am approaching this from a common reader standpoint. I think of myself as a common reader, not a super fan, who googles a lot, reads coppermind and so on. I read the books. I would never have known that WoBs existed

I'm sorry. There are hundreds (or more) of 1-5 post accounts on this forum of regular readers, like you describe, who only come here once to ask a question or find clarification if something confuses them. They do not ignore the author's own answers just because they are normal readers with no desire to explore deeper on their own. If you do not want to read annotations or WoBs or Coppermind articles, that's fine. Wonderful even. I just cannot understand the dichotomy of wanting to interact about a story you obviously like enough to have joined this forum over, but also refusing to believe the Author himself when he tries to answer questions or clarify those things that cannot fit in the published work.

I can accept your stance, but I don't understand it. Just please do not berate us when we say "here is your answer" and you happen to not like that answer or the method in which it was answered. 

Edited January 3, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Isilel]

11 hours ago, Sedside said:

The problem is that both parties benefit from the bond, but only one party can break it.

 

According to Notum in OB that has only been true when the final Ideal was sworn. Before that, the spren could dissolve the bond from their side. He explains it to Kaladin on the ship. Regarding lobotomy, didn't Mayalaran say in RoW that it was unexpected - i.e. that it wasn't something that had happened when Radiants broke their Oaths pre-Recreance?

One doesn't need to resort to WoBs in order to see that the situation was depicted as more nuanced to begin with, even prior to WaT.

[Sedside she/her]

12 minutes ago, Isilel said:

According to Notum in OB that has only been true when the final Ideal was sworn. Before that, the spren could dissolve the bond from their side. He explains it to Kaladin on the ship.

Really? Wow, thanks, I remember that, but I guess I misunderstood it then.

13 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Regarding lobotomy, didn't Mayalaran say in RoW that it was unexpected - i.e. that it wasn't something that had happened when Radiants broke their Oaths pre-Recreance?

Yeah, it was, it just feels so pretty well established as high stakes of oath breaking for me since books 1-3, that reverting it back to how it was before seems like making it cheaper. Also, Honor was alive back then, so maybe it was still different somehow, but I'm not sure I understand it clearly.

[Mason Wheeler]

Here's a point I don't think I've seen anyone mention so far: just because it was wrong to imprison BAM back in the day, does not mean it was right to release her now.

We've clearly seen that the millennia of isolation have driven her homicidally insane.  Renarin and Rlain and Shallan clearly saw this as well, and understood it.  So why in the world would they free her, knowing that?  Unjustly imprisoned or not, they just loosed a monster on the world, one who's always had the capacity to commit atrocities and now has the inclination and desire to do so without reservation.

That was one of the biggest "facepalm" moments of the book.  The atrocities that she goes on to commit now are at least partially on their heads.