Wind and Truth Full Book Reactions (No Cosmere Edition)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Post your full book reactions for Wind and Truth here. To talk about content from other books than this one in this forum (since Cosmere spoilers are not automatically allowed), you must use spoiler tags. Please use the Cosmere board if you've read all/most of the Cosmere!

[Sasukerinnegan he/him]

Excellent book. Loved many, many parts. I liked that the philosophical aspect was so stressed - both the Jasnah-Taravangian confrontation and the Odium-Dalinar confrontation was done excellently.

My most emotional moment was when Szeth cries seeing his childhood doll and Kaladin asks him who the child was that he failed? I especially liked Syl's answer at that point.

The ending was unexpected, to me atleast. I expected many possible endings, but I never thought it was possible to have an ending with such wildly different interpretations. You could literally see Taravangian as having achieved everything beyond expectations but Dalinar also may have won beyond his expectations.

I didn't expect Cultivation to flee. For all that Koravellium Avast judges both Honour and Odium, she herself has repeatedly chosen to flee whenever there is a confrontation.

The most predictable part was Gavinor. The Death Rattles and Gavinor being dragged to the Spiritual Realm all suggested that this was a possibility.

[Brgst13]

I LOVED the last Kaladin chapter.  Sets up so much for the second arc, and fit his character so well.  Taravangian has no idea what is going to be coming his way!

[mohubb]

Did anyone else cry when Kaladin stood up at the end?

[Mason Wheeler]

Cultivation sucks.  It doesn't get discussed much in here, but it seems pretty clear that at virtually every turn, she screwed up and made things worse.  And yeah, there's a whole lot of blame to go around for how things turned out in the end, but the lion's (dragon's?) share definitely belongs to her.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Mason Wheeler

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I loved it

it was an emotional roller coaster for me… I kept saying to my kids “it’s getting dark, they’re losing” every few hundred pages and well… honestly they mostly do. 

Which intellectually I know is necessary for the 2nd 5-book arc, but… man was it saddening to see play out. 

I loved Kaladin’s ending. I LOVED Adolin’s ending, though I’m saddened for his loss and his and Shallan’s separation. 

I loved that the Chana theory turned out 100%, that the Oathpact WAS re-founded (sort of), and that Dalinar DID Ascend (sort of). 

my biggest gripe is probably the D&T resolution, but even it I’m ultimately okay with. 

my biggest heartache was seeing Sigzil’s sacrifice to try and save Vienta. 

it was heartening to see Sig join up with 12124 though at the end… even if we know how their story goes…

mixed bag and it was ultimately bittersweet, but I loved it and I still hold out hope for the restoration of Honor and Stormlight and… all of it

18 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Cultivation sucks.  It doesn't get discussed much in here, but it seems pretty clear that at virtually every turn, she screwed up and made things worse.  And yeah, there's a whole lot of blame to go around for how things turned out in the end, but the lion's (dragon's?) share definitely belongs to her.

also yes, Cultivation kind of sucks here. Hope she can find redemption later!

Edited December 9, 2024 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[crumblyburgers]

My head is still reeling from everything that happened. 

But I could not set the book down. Kaladin and Szeth captivated me. And Szeth skipping an Ideal while Kaladin calmly speaks his 5th was incredible.

I about died when Kaladin repeats the iconic line. Such a perfect way to encapsulate his journey.

I think Adolin's story was both the most compelling but also the most tedious. Tedious, because not too much changed from chapter to chapter. UNTIL you break it down and see how his instruction of Towers really shapes the entire book. And then the founding of the Unoathed and his duel. My my. That whole scene was brilliant. 

[Mason Wheeler]

16 minutes ago, crumblyburgers said:

My head is still reeling from everything that happened. 

But I could not set the book down. Kaladin and Szeth captivated me. And Szeth skipping an Ideal while Kaladin calmly speaks his 5th was incredible.

I about died when Kaladin repeats the iconic line. Such a perfect way to encapsulate his journey.

I think Adolin's story was both the most compelling but also the most tedious. Tedious, because not too much changed from chapter to chapter. UNTIL you break it down and see how his instruction of Towers really shapes the entire book. And then the founding of the Unoathed and his duel. My my. That whole scene was brilliant. 

Honestly, I felt like the Unoathed and also Szeth skipping an ideal both violated Sanderson's First Law.  They came out of nowhere, because we had no understanding that either of them were possible.

I hate to have to say this, but someone's got to say it: I found this book disappointing overall.

From solutions that came out of nowhere, to validating so many of the worst fan theories out there, (Chana Davar, Renarin/Rlain, Gavilar as Odium's champion, etc,) to the resolution to the SIgzil questions that The Sunlit Man set up being just a few brief paragraphs at the end that felt like they were tacked on in a rush just to tick that specific box, to the way that we really can't call the remaining books "The Stormlight Archive" anymore, to so many important details from before being left unexplained (particularly involving Dalinar: what does "I am Unity" mean? What does "we killed you" mean?), to entirely new important details being left unexplained with no indication that they're significant enough to revisit in later books (everything about Zahel's captivity), the story gave a sense of being rushed and unpolished that's entirely at odds with the 4 years it took to produce when Brandon has historically gone 3 years between Stormlight books.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

3 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Honestly, I felt like the Unoathed and also Szeth skipping an ideal both violated Sanderson's First Law.  They came out of nowhere, because we had no understanding that either of them were possible.

I hate to have to say this, but someone's got to say it: I found this book disappointing overall.

From solutions that came out of nowhere, to validating so many of the worst fan theories out there, (Chana Davar, Renarin/Rlain, Gavilar as Odium's champion, etc,) to the resolution to the SIgzil questions that The Sunlit Man set up being just a few brief paragraphs at the end that felt like they were tacked on in a rush just to tick that specific box, to the way that we really can't call the remaining books "The Stormlight Archive" anymore, to so many important details from before being left unexplained (particularly involving Dalinar: what does "I am Unity" mean? What does "we killed you" mean?), to entirely new important details being left unexplained with no indication that they're significant enough to revisit in later books (everything about Zahel's captivity), the story gave a sense of being rushed and unpolished that's entirely at odds with the 4 years it took to produce when Brandon has historically gone 3 years between Stormlight books.

Sorry that's your experience of the book!

I feel like the mechanics of the Unoathed and Szeth's skipping of an ideal were given the beginnings of explanations in the book, which is consistent with all the other SA works out there, where we get the statement of something and then spend years debating it until a later work comes along and explains it. 

Also sorry you think that the confirmed theories were the "worst out there", they're some of my favorite, especially the Chana Davar theory! I was super happy to read that one confirmed!

Not all works can be for all people as Sanderson himself said recently. 

[Mason Wheeler]

21 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

which is consistent with all the other SA works out there, where we get the statement of something and then spend years debating it until a later work comes along and explains it. 

"Here's something that doesn't make any sense, and it will be explained in a later book" is fine.  I have no problem with that, generally speaking.  But when it's "here's something used to resolve an important piece of narrative conflict that doesn't make any sense," that's a violation of the First Law.

Quote

they're some of my favorite, especially the Chana Davar theory!

I had three problems with that one specifically.

1. It just took the whole "Shallan's repressed memories" theme above-and-beyond and into ludicrous territory.  Here's someone who has seen the visions, who's seen the Heralds as they truly look, and she never once noticed and said "hey, that one looks just like my mom!"  And adding in "and she showed up at the wedding, but the whole thing got pushed off onto Veil" just feels like a really weak hand-wave.
2. Heralds apparently have "herald powers" that give them superhuman speed and reaction time, among other things.  We see this with both Ishar and Taln, the latter of which is able to move fast enough to cause something akin to a sonic boom, so we know it's not exclusive to just one Herald.  Are we truly to believe that a little child was able to get the drop on one of them, even with a Shardblade summoning?
3. It compounds the trauma of "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother" with "I caused the Desolation," and does so rather pointlessly since there's really nothing she can learn from it.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Mason Wheeler

[Mason Wheeler]

One thing that struck me in the discussion of the Shards is just how unsuitable so many of the Vessels are to their Shard.

It's specifically called out that Aona, who held the power of love, was a gentle healer. OK, so far so good.  But then we have:

• Honor was taken up by a guy who never cared all that much about keeping his word
• Ruin was taken by someone who's a very good and kind man
• Valor was taken by a coward
• Odium/Passion was taken by someone who preferred to plot and scheme and be clever rather than rage and be emotional
• Endowment was taken by a spiteful individual who's full of schemes to destroy her enemies

This just makes me all the more curious to get the story of Adonalsium and the Shattering.  What was the process by which the Shards got divided up among the Vessels?  And how did so many of them get taken by people who were poor fits for their Intent, when we've seen multiple examples in the Cosmere of a Shard's power rejecting someone who is not well-Connected to its Intent?

[TheOneKEA]

I blame Hoid, as many others might. I suspect that his rejection of a Shard was not the act of a single individual, and that several other people also walked away from holding the Shards, resulting in a mad scramble to find others who wanted to try. After all, there's no explicit mention in any published work that the sixteen people who shattered Adonalsium were the same sixteen who ascended and became Vessels for the resulting Shards.

[SchrödingerSpren]

I am looking forward to the next five books all being centered on Lift, the only Radiant who has consistent access to her powers in the true desolation.

[AnthonyC4]

1 hour ago, TheOneKEA said:

I blame Hoid, as many others might. I suspect that his rejection of a Shard was not the act of a single individual, and that several other people also walked away from holding the Shards, resulting in a mad scramble to find others who wanted to try. After all, there's no explicit mention in any published work that the sixteen people who shattered Adonalsium were the same sixteen who ascended and became Vessels for the resulting Shards.

There is an part I noted, in one of the Honor flashbacks, where he refers to himself as "heir to Honor" and makes references to a "predecessor".

[JPGU]

I cried when Kaladin said again "honor is dead, but I will see what I can do." They were not tears of sadness but of pride and acceptance because in that moment I knew that Kaladin Stormblessed had evolved into the man he was meant to be, the one who will always protect those who cannot protect themselves no matter who they are or what type of protection they need.

Edited December 10, 2024 by JPGU

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

4 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

"Here's something that doesn't make any sense, and it will be explained in a later book" is fine.  I have no problem with that, generally speaking.  But when it's "here's something used to resolve an important piece of narrative conflict that doesn't make any sense," that's a violation of the First Law.

Again - I do think these things were explained well enough in this book already for my sake, especially the Unoathed portion. 

We see Notum able to cross without a bond early on, apparently being called by the Wind. I assume she called to others as well. We see BAM's release effectively healing many of the deadeyes. Those two things combined allow for the Unoathed at the right time. Is there more going on? maybe, and that might come in later books, but I'm happy with where we got for this section for me to understand it for this book.

As for the Szeth skipping an Ideal, we see repeatedly in the flashbacks dealing with Honor and the talking about the Radiants and others that with Honor's passing the radiants would be able to do things before unseen because Honor wasn't there to regulate. Is that the only possible explanation? No, but it's good enough for me in this book to go off of and explain where it came from. 

I don't think either of these things came in isolation or out of no where by any stretch. 

4 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

I had three problems with that one specifically.

1. It just took the whole "Shallan's repressed memories" theme above-and-beyond and into ludicrous territory.  Here's someone who has seen the visions, who's seen the Heralds as they truly look, and she never once noticed and said "hey, that one looks just like my mom!"  And adding in "and she showed up at the wedding, but the whole thing got pushed off onto Veil" just feels like a really weak hand-wave.
2. Heralds apparently have "herald powers" that give them superhuman speed and reaction time, among other things.  We see this with both Ishar and Taln, the latter of which is able to move fast enough to cause something akin to a sonic boom, so we know it's not exclusive to just one Herald.  Are we truly to believe that a little child was able to get the drop on one of them, even with a Shardblade summoning?
3. It compounds the trauma of "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother" with "I caused the Desolation," and does so rather pointlessly since there's really nothing she can learn from it.

1. I don't remember Shallan ever visited one of Dalinar's visions, nor are we ever shown that she's seen the images of the Heralds as they truly look. 
2. I find it completely plausible that a mother is caught off-guard by her daughter summoning a roughly six foot weapon instantly in a close combat range that the mother didn't even know the child had advanced far enough to have.
3. We were told back in Words of Radiance that Shallan was to blame for the Desolation, one of the key points of the Theory in the first place...
   1. She did learn from it. Her realizing/learning that her mother was a Herald completely recontextualized her mother's behavior on that day for her. It let her see her mother's actions in a new light and it allowed her to forgive her mom for trying to kill her. It was completely in line with the entire Kaladin/Szeth story line with the other Heralds we see there of "Forgiveness, then do better" and "while trauma doesn't excuse what you did, it does explain it"  

Edited December 10, 2024 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[JPGU]

2 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

 

• Honor was taken up by a guy who never cared all that much about keeping his word
• Ruin was taken by someone who's a very good and kind man
• Valor was taken by a coward
• Odium/Passion was taken by someone who preferred to plot and scheme and be clever rather than rage and be emotional
• Endowment was taken by a spiteful individual who's full of schemes to destroy her enemies

 

You are wrong on two of these though. Tanavast said:

"Edgli, Endowment, who was the most compassionate woman I had ever known."

"I made one final attempt at locating Valor, the great dragon god Medelantorius—as she was a warrior who would surely join me."

So both Edgli and Medelantorius Indeed where aligned with the intentions of their shards

 

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by JPGU

[Mason Wheeler]

3 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

1. I don't remember Shallan ever visited one of Dalinar's visions, nor are we ever shown that she's seen the images of the Heralds as they truly look. 
2. I find it completely plausible that a mother is caught off-guard by her daughter summoning a roughly six foot weapon instantly in a close combat range that the mother didn't even know the child had advanced far enough to have.
3. We were told back in Words of Radiance that Shallan was to blame for the Desolation, one of the key points of the Theory in the first place...
   1. She did learn from it. Her realizing/learning that her mother was a Herald completely recontextualized her mother's behavior on that day for her. It let her see her mother's actions in a new light and it allowed her to forgive her mom for trying to kill her. It was completely in line with the entire Kaladin/Szeth story line with the other Heralds we see there of "Forgiveness, then do better" and "while trauma doesn't excuse what you did, it does explain it"  

1. In an earlier POV, Shalash is surprised that the Alethi/Urithiru people are circulating accurate images of the Heralds as people they're looking for.  I'd have to double check, but I seem to recall that it's either implied or stated outright that these were drawn by Shallan, who got them from Dalinar pulling her into a vision of Aharietiam.

3. We were? Where?  I don't recall ever seeing that at all and I've been over the book multiple times.

5 minutes ago, JPGU said:

You are wrong on two of these though. Tanavast said:

"Edgli, Endowment, who was the most compassionate woman I had ever known."

"I made one final attempt at locating Valor, the great dragon god Medelantorius—as she was a warrior who would surely join me."

So both Edgli and Medelantorius Indeed where aligned with the intentions of their shards

Yes, Tanavast said that.  Tanavast, we have seen, is not the most reliable of people.

What we also know is that Edgli treats both Hoid and Rayse with outright contempt, and has concocted at least one and (judging by the letters in this book) more than one long-term scheme to destroy Odium if he becomes troublesome, because apparently sending Nightblood to Roshar wasn't enough.  (Which, OK, it kind of wasn't.  But still...)

And Valor has been revealed to be the mysterious Shard who Brandon has alluded to for years now who is all about hiding from Odium.  Hiding so thoroughly that none of the other Shards can locate her, as it turns out.  In other words, a coward who displays no valor.

[JPGU]

10 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Yes, Tanavast said that.  Tanavast, we have seen, is not the most reliable of people.

What we also know is that Edgli treats both Hoid and Rayse with outright contempt, and has concocted at least one and (judging by the letters in this book) more than one long-term scheme to destroy Odium if he becomes troublesome, because apparently sending Nightblood to Roshar wasn't enough.  (Which, OK, it kind of wasn't.  But still...)

And Valor has been revealed to be the mysterious Shard who Brandon has alluded to for years now who is all about hiding from Odium.  Hiding so thoroughly that none of the other Shards can locate her, as it turns out.  In other words, a coward who displays no valor.

1.- in that moment Tanavast is thinking about who can help him and think about those who where great before ascending, i think that we can trust him in this

2.- Nope the shard who was Hiding isn't Valor is Euridrius/Reason

[JohnShortstien he/him]

Something that really struck me after reading this book was that Taln never broke. Before I had assumed that part of the reason that the desolation began was because Taln finally broke, but with the new understanding about Shallan’s mother having died and then broke that means that over 4 milliana of torture Taln never broke. And then at the end when he forgives them I swear. Also can we address how funny it is when kaladin is asked what he is a spren, a god and he responds with no I'm his therapist, that got me cackling.

[listerfeend]

12 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

And Valor has been revealed to be the mysterious Shard who Brandon has alluded to for years now who is all about hiding from Odium.  Hiding so thoroughly that none of the other Shards can locate her, as it turns out.  In other words, a coward who displays no valor.

Valor is NOT the Shard that no one can find. We have multiple sources (namely in the letters in the epigraphs of several of the previous books) that Endowment, Harmony, and others have been able to confer with Valor. Even Honor, at one point, was able to reach out and contact Valor. While I agree that hiding from Odium seems antithetical to Valor, I believe this is one of those situations where the Vessel is going to be in conflict with the Shard. 

Reason is the Shard that is hiding. I'm just happy that we finally have a name for all of the Vessels, and a name for all of the Shards

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

35 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Valor is NOT the Shard that no one can find. We have multiple sources (namely in the letters in the epigraphs of several of the previous books) that Endowment, Harmony, and others have been able to confer with Valor. Even Honor, at one point, was able to reach out and contact Valor. While I agree that hiding from Odium seems antithetical to Valor, I believe this is one of those situations where the Vessel is going to be in conflict with the Shard. 

Reason is the Shard that is hiding. I'm just happy that we finally have a name for all of the Vessels, and a name for all of the Shards

I could even argue that Valor hiding from Odium isn't a conflict for the Shard/Vessel because "discretion is the better part of Valor" after all. 

I'd be curious to read that Vessel/Shard interaction though!

12 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

1. In an earlier POV, Shalash is surprised that the Alethi/Urithiru people are circulating accurate images of the Heralds as people they're looking for.  I'd have to double check, but I seem to recall that it's either implied or stated outright that these were drawn by Shallan, who got them from Dalinar pulling her into a vision of Aharietiam.

3. We were? Where?  I don't recall ever seeing that at all and I've been over the book multiple times.

1. In that POV Shalash notes that it's "Midius' work", which means that Hoid drew the Heralds for Jasnah's sketches

   Shallan was in Kholinar or Shadesmar when those sketches were being made as she arrived back on the battlefield of Thaylen City and the sketches were being used just after those when she was either comatose or chasing after Adolin

3. I was a bit tongue in cheek there, but WoR, Chapter 10's first line: 

Quote

"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame."

That is why it's one of the basis of the theory of Chana Mom!

Originally we read that as "SHallan's world ended" because it was the catalyst for all the pain that we see in her family through flashbacks. Now it's recontextualized to confirm the theory that her mother as a Herald was sent back to Braize and broke, leading to the end of the world. At some level, Shallan knew/figured it out through the years that her mom was a Herald and she was responsible for the Desolation even if she blocked the memory or specifics of it, which is why it was stated ambiguously in her flashback. 

I still think that full revelation is what allowed her to learn and forgive her mom as it recontextualized her mom's actions to allow for forgiveness. 

 

[listerfeend]

56 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I could even argue that Valor hiding from Odium isn't a conflict for the Shard/Vessel because "discretion is the better part of Valor" after all. 

Frankly, I had forgotten that saying. I sort of feel like hiding and discretion are maybe different things, but there is a lot in that about avoiding conflict when conflict doesn't serve the end goal, so, this is a possible caveat to what appears to be cowardice.  

[ApatheticMahouShoujo]

Loved the book. It's amazing how such a massive volume can feel so short. So much happened and the ending really makes me excited for the second arc as well as any other Cosmere stories!

My favorite part was definitely the chapter where Taravangian and Jasnah argue for the fate of Thaylenah. Although most of the book was great, that was just such a big standout moment for me. All the Odium interludes were great too, and although he inevitably wins, he fails in potentially his most heartfelt goal: to prove Dalinar wrong.

[hagmania]

“Nothing.”

That single word was so powerful.

Even with Ishar’s explanation, I legitimately thought the ultimate peace between Returns was going to just be non-existence until the Oathpact demanded the Heralds come back to Roshar. I like the Spiritual Realm retreat too, but thought whatever decision he made would befit the story.