Chapters 23 & 24

[bmcclure7]

48 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

 I doubt anyone could have seen "Trapping someone in Shardplate" as even a remote possibility. Dead Shardplate is known to them, but Living Shardplate has only just started to appear again, the Ghostbloods wouldn't have much understanding of it and won't be able to prepare for it until they do.

The conflict between Shallan and the Ghostbloods is will probably become more even thanks to Shallan having more of her own resources and powers, plus the Ghostbloods may put up a frightening front but by Kel's own admission they are far from the biggest fish in the sea. Their mystery and anonymity is by far their greatest strength, take that away and they'll much more manageable.

But yeah, I don't see this undercover thing going too well for Shallan, at least in terms of info gathering instead of her safety. 

It'll still be interesting to see though, any info on the Ghostbloods is bound to be interesting even if it's not what Shallan is hoping to get.

It’s not so much this individual incident as me worried that it will become a trend. I don’t mind her having some surprises for the ghost bloods but the same should also be true, ghost bloods have cells on countless planets. He should have some surprises for her too.  It just seemed like this obstacle was overcome far too easily hardly an inconvenience. Which is fine even makes sense in a way, but I’m not sure I want this trend to continue.

[Dofurion]

Have they considered the whole Ghostblood issue to be a cover to cover up a withdrawal?

[Njvodin]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Anyone willing to translate Navani’s notes? 

I'll make a thread on it

 

Edit: 

here it is, check it out

Edited October 22, 2024 by Njvodin
adding link to post

[The Stick]

There is no way the entire squad Shallan has is leaving that building alive. There are so many things that Shallan does not know and is not considering. For example, if I was Mraize, I would send only decoys into that meeting, preferably disguised with Lightweaving or stolen Lightweaving with an Allomantic grenade. After all, there has been years of speculation on spiking a bond out of someone, and Mraize would totally do it. I guess another way it could be done is trying to temporarily hack Aon-Dor like Moonlight did, to use the illusion Aons.

Some other measures I can think he would take, beside decoys.

1: He would have squadrons of aluminum snipers in the room, Rosharans don't understand firearms.

2: At this point, because Kelsier was Sovereign, I would presume they have harmonium. This would allow them to make anti-personel mines.

3: He could use leeching grenades.

4: I suppose if they can catch some of the Lightweavers in speed bubbles, they can split them up as a unit.

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You’re forgetting that spren fibrals are very limited at least so far. They pretty much only do the surges. Which is useful, but I don’t think you can base your entire technological advancement around the surges at least not without being limited. Additionally, the spree would have to agree to become fabrils and for lesser spren that doesn’t seem to happen outside of shardplate which only seems to become available though a bond. 

If you believe that you are fundamentally ignorant. Literally 15 years ago you could’ve said non-binary online and most people would not have known what you were talking about.  It’s always tempting to think that your generations issues will be timelessly relevant. But the truth is no matter how passionate you do you care about something future generations are unlikely to have strong feelings on it one way or another. Tell me what’s your thoughts on Arianism? Or monphitism? Do you have any strong opinions on whether or not Bishop should be appointed by the church or by the state?  Do you even know anything about any of these issues probably not because they’re simply no longer relevant. And even if if you do, I would be surprised if you could ster up any particular passion for any of these issues.

To this, I would say that I would have to agree. Culture and society shifts so quickly, nothing would be constant. I am of the opinion that Rushu is projecting, and really is not sure. She probably has some thoughts brooding at the back of her mind, and her subconscious is treating it as a scholarly matter to avoid dealing with those thoughts. 

Oh yeah, and for the record, Arianism is heresy due to metaphysical impossibility, as Godel and Anselm would say. Monaphisitiscm is problematic because there is a clear example of a human and divine will united in one person, but both distinct, because the divine will is the same between all three persons, but can disagree with human will. Secular bishoprics are actually a modern problem, with the Chinese treaty having power over appointing bishops.

 

I was just having some fun with you. I doubt that question was not rhetorical.

[Dofurion]

I want to revisit the Rushu theme from a different angle. Has anyone else thought that her interactions with the Flamespren are a foreshadowing of her becoming a Dustbringer?

Reviewing his entry in the Coppermind, his personality and actions fit with the information we have regarding the members of said order.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Dofurion

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You’re forgetting that spren fibrals are very limited at least so far. They pretty much only do the surges. Which is useful, but I don’t think you can base your entire technological advancement around the surges at least not without being limited. Additionally, the spree would have to agree to become fabrils and for lesser spren that doesn’t seem to happen outside of shardplate which only seems to become available though a bond. 

If you believe that you are fundamentally ignorant. Literally 15 years ago you could’ve said non-binary online and most people would not have known what you were talking about.  It’s always tempting to think that your generations issues will be timelessly relevant. But the truth is no matter how passionate you do you care about something future generations are unlikely to have strong feelings on it one way or another. Tell me what’s your thoughts on Arianism? Or morphinism? Do you have any strong opinions on whether or not Bishop should be appointed by the church or by the state?  Do you even know anything about any of these issues probably not because they’re simply no longer relevant. And even if if you do, I would be surprised if you could ster up any particular passion for any of these issues.

I am not ignorant, and old enough to have been reading books and aware of different gender identities a lot longer than 50 years which is only 1974. Just because TV media avoided mention, does not mean that it did not exist, or that people were not aware. 
Even beyond any personal knowledge or culture, you can not read The Picture of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde (1890 ), Orlando by Virginia Woolf (1928),  Nightwood by Djuna Barnes (1936) or Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin (1969) and not understand concepts of nonconforming gender or gender fluidity.  ( There are many more too,sci fi has had many books that explored gender ) 
Though the term non-binary was first used in the 40's, and became accepted language in the last decade, but that does not mean other words or terms and the knowledge did not exist. I was not stating that anyone reading it would have known the newer accepted use term and understanding of "non-binary".

But the text in question in regards to Rushu does not mention non-binary, common use terms and public acceptance may have changed but understanding what is being referred to in context has not changed. 50 years from now we may have changed the words we use again, and it would still be clear from the Series context that Rushu is not perceived by Navani's to fit her idea of gender norms.

 

1 hour ago, Dofurion said:

I want to revisit the Rushu theme from a different angle. Has anyone else thought that her interactions with the Flamespren are a foreshadowing of her becoming a Dustbringer?

Reviewing his entry in the Coppermind, his personality and actions fit with the information we have regarding the members of said order.

I hadn't until you mentioned it but it makes sense. I have always thought that Geranid would become a Dustbringer.

 

[RedBlue]

A few thoughts:

1) Navani is conceptualising the new type of fabrials as tools like heaters, but a group of ‘domesticated’ flamespren could be a devastating weapon. Very hard to stop or even detect, but capable of targeted, powerful destruction.

2) There seems to be a lot of confusion among the characters about where Honor is now and why the power hasn’t awakened yet. Simple possibility nobody has mentioned: Honor is already awake, and has been keeping to itself because it doesn’t much care for the Rosharan conflict or the people involved. That would be a nasty surprise for Dalinar when he tries to Ascend.

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, The Stick said:

There is no way the entire squad Shallan has is leaving that building alive. There are so many things that Shallan does not know and is not considering. For example, if I was Mraize, I would send only decoys into that meeting, preferably disguised with Lightweaving or stolen Lightweaving with an Allomantic grenade. After all, there has been years of speculation on spiking a bond out of someone, and Mraize would totally do it. I guess another way it could be done is trying to temporarily hack Aon-Dor like Moonlight did, to use the illusion Aons.

Some other measures I can think he would take, beside decoys.

1: He would have squadrons of aluminum snipers in the room, Rosharans don't understand firearms.

2: At this point, because Kelsier was Sovereign, I would presume they have harmonium. This would allow them to make anti-personel mines.

3: He could use leeching grenades.

4: I suppose if they can catch some of the Lightweavers in speed bubbles, they can split them up as a unit.

To this, I would say that I would have to agree. Culture and society shifts so quickly, nothing would be constant. I am of the opinion that Rushu is projecting, and really is not sure. She probably has some thoughts brooding at the back of her mind, and her subconscious is treating it as a scholarly matter to avoid dealing with those thoughts. 

Oh yeah, and for the record, Arianism is heresy due to metaphysical impossibility, as Godel and Anselm would say. Monaphisitiscm is problematic because there is a clear example of a human and divine will united in one person, but both distinct, because the divine will is the same between all three persons, but can disagree with human will. Secular bishoprics are actually a modern problem, with the Chinese treaty having power over appointing bishops.

 

I was just having some fun with you. I doubt that question was not rhetorical.

Honestly, honestly, I’m just impressed that anyone other than me it is thread knows what those two things are. 

 I think guns are the most likely thing that’s going to make an appearance.  I don’t think we’ll see much of the other worldly magic Mainly because this is storm light introducing a new magic system only to be used once and that’s not fully explained and in the series doesn’t seem likely.  we do keep seeing  little bit of awakening

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I am not ignorant, and old enough to have been reading books and aware of different gender identities a lot longer than 50 years which is only 1974. Just because TV media avoided mention, does not mean that it did not exist, or that people were not aware. 
Even beyond any personal knowledge or culture, you can not read The Picture of Dorian Gray, by Oscar Wilde (1890 ), Orlando by Virginia Woolf (1928),  Nightwood by Djuna Barnes (1936) or Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin (1969) and not understand concepts of nonconforming gender or gender fluidity.  ( There are many more too,sci fi has had many books that explored gender ) 
Though the term non-binary was first used in the 40's, and became accepted language in the last decade, but that does not mean other words or terms and the knowledge did not exist. I was not stating that anyone reading it would have known the newer accepted use term and understanding of "non-binary".

But the text in question in regards to Rushu does not mention non-binary, common use terms and public acceptance may have changed but understanding what is being referred to in context has not changed. 50 years from now we may have changed the words we use again, and it would still be clear from the Series context that Rushu is not perceived by Navani's to fit her idea of gender norms.

 

I hadn't until you mentioned it but it makes sense. I have always thought that Geranid would become a Dustbringer.

 

Yes, yes, I understand that some people were some people were already talking about these concepts and for more than 50 years. But there is a difference between some people talking about it and expecting the average person to know about it.  
 

Forget public acceptance 15 years ago no one (or at least the majority of people) didn’t know what gender fluid gender non-binary or even transgender even met. I know this because I was alive 15 years ago. None of these words were in the vocabulary. And the concepts they represented honestly hadn’t even occurred to most people or at least everyone I knew.  

The very phrase gender norms is pretty dated. I’m old enough to remember a time when gender norm and nothing to do with your identity whether you were tomboy or a Tomgirl or something like that. 
 

But I think we spoken enough of this topic. Let’s move attention back to the book.

28 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

A few thoughts:

1) Navani is conceptualising the new type of fabrials as tools like heaters, but a group of ‘domesticated’ flamespren could be a devastating weapon. Very hard to stop or even detect, but capable of targeted, powerful destruction.

2) There seems to be a lot of confusion among the characters about where Honor is now and why the power hasn’t awakened yet. Simple possibility nobody has mentioned: Honor is already awake, and has been keeping to itself because it doesn’t much care for the Rosharan conflict or the people involved. That would be a nasty surprise for Dalinar when he tries to Ascend.

Since we are our flame spren capable of destruction?

Edited October 22, 2024 by bmcclure7

[RedBlue]

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Since we are our flame spren capable of destruction?

If a flamespren can heat up a room, it can heat up something else. Maybe you could train it to set fire to things, or to overheat equipment. Maybe you could train painspren to incapacitate people, or angerspren or fearspren to manipulate groups. Maybe you could train rotspren to ruin an enemy’s food supply.

[The Stick]

3 hours ago, RedBlue said:

If a flamespren can heat up a room, it can heat up something else. Maybe you could train it to set fire to things, or to overheat equipment. Maybe you could train painspren to incapacitate people, or angerspren or fearspren to manipulate groups. Maybe you could train rotspren to ruin an enemy’s food supply.

No, this cannot work like you think. Flamespren can indeed heat a room,  but only from within a fabrial. However, free range spren fundamentally cannot. They are cognitive manifestations of ideas and emotions, they have no actual PR realm power. I seen to recall this being pointed out when Lirin says rotspren don't cause infection, merely show up when it is already there. Now, maybe if you could smuggle in empty fabrials, maybe. But I just don't see it working the way you think.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

29 minutes ago, The Stick said:

No, this cannot work like you think. Flamespren can indeed heat a room,  but only from within a fabrial. However, free range spren fundamentally cannot. They are cognitive manifestations of ideas and emotions, they have no actual PR realm power.

That cannot be factually correct. Kaladin tells us that windspren like to play tricks on people by glueing their stuff to the ground.

[RedBlue]

I’m aware that applications of Navani’s new method are currently very limited, but that’s how progress works. Right now, not much is possible. But hypothetically, with more discoveries and developments, a lot of things could become possible.

And we have seen spren affect the Physical realm. Syl can lift stuff and stick things together, Pattern can make things vibrate, the Sibling operates the whole tower, all the spren that make armour. If the process of training a spren functions similarly to forming a Nahel bond — and Rushu’s description makes that seem likely — I expect a trained spren to be able to do things a ‘wild’ spren can’t.

[spaidapig he/him]

Szeth is 37?

Did we know that? Is this a typo? Am I bad at Math?

[alder24]

1 minute ago, spaidapig said:

Szeth is 37?

Did we know that? Is this a typo? Am I bad at Math?

From Coppermind: 

Quote

Szeth is roughly thirty-five years old at the start of the True Desolation.

Your math is correct.

[spaidapig he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

From Coppermind: 

Your math is correct.

Oh yeah, apparently it was already in tWoK

[Ninth of the Night]

45 minutes ago, spaidapig said:

Szeth is 37?

Did we know that? Is this a typo? Am I bad at Math?

Typical stonewalker, always viewing the Shin as childlike

[+robardin he/him]

I am either suspicious, surprised, or disappointed at how the "Ghostblood Staff Meeting" is shaping up.

Remember, the Ghostbloods know what Shallan was trying to keep hidden from them (about B-a-M and whatever else Kalak and Wit discussed with her after she broke it off with Mraize), AND they know that she doesn't know that they know.

But, they also would probably figure she'd try to move on them and not wait for them to move on her, because they liked her enough to recruit her, and that's what they'd do, right?

And what they know she knows, that she doesn't know that they know, is that Wit gave them drawings of a bunch of GB agents on Roshar. In fact, because of Ala, they probably know exactly who those drawings are for, too.

So getting those agents to apparently go to some kind of in-person "All-Roshar Ghostblood Conference" ... in an underground meeting room in one of the Alethi warcamps... SHOULD be an easy ruse to set up.

And that "masked figure" who's not Iyatil, that Shallan so easily subdued? Really, there's another Southern Scadrian that just happened never to have been mentioned? And whose mask came off easily, leaving only indentations on the face, when we've been told repeatedly (including in Mistborn Era 2 books, by Allik I believe?) that those guys NEVER remove them and DO "grow into them" in some way?

Isn't that more likely to be the bait for "Hey Shallan, we are blocking your ability to Lightweave your way into this meeting you really want to be in on, that you don't know we know you know about, and hey lookit, one of the people we posted AT THE DOOR is WEARING A PHYSICAL MASK but it's not Iyatil who would recognize you, ... hint hint hint hint... Hey you, junior offworld Ghostblood, put this mask on and look imposing out there"

If this ISN'T a Ghostblood honey trap, I will be very surprised, and depending on how it plays out, rather disappointed (if it turns out all to be just as Shallan imagined it going/working).

OTOH I don't think Mraize, having entrapped Shallan, would actually kill her. I think he's going to make one more push, if not to recruit her, then to work together for yet another common goal.

EDIT: I just realized, given the prologue, instead of seeing Mraize in there, Shallan may well get that "one more push to join, or at least to work together on this" from Thaidakar himself, in projection form. I mean, come on... From what we've seen, isn't this honey trap thing much more of a Kelsier type job than a Mraize one?

Also, auto-concatenated to my post in reply to another one:

1 hour ago, spaidapig said:

Szeth is 37?

Did we know that? Is this a typo? Am I bad at Math?

"I'm thirty-seven! I'm not OLD!" (-Dennis the Anarcho-Syndicalist Peasant)

Edited October 22, 2024 by robardin

[+Oltux72 he/him]

55 minutes ago, robardin said:

OTOH I don't think Mraize, having entrapped Shallan, would actually kill her. I think he's going to make one more push, if not to recruit her, then to work together for yet another common goal.

EDIT: I just realized, given the prologue, instead of seeing Mraize in there, Shallan may well get that "one more push to join, or at least to work together on this" from Thaidakar himself, in projection form. I mean, come on... From what we've seen, isn't this honey trap thing much more of a Kelsier type job than a Mraize one?

She is no longer any use as an agent. Killing her would be like declaring war on the Knights Radiant. His foremost concern should be to keep Odium on Roshar. We might see a peace offer: Give us Ba-Ado-Mishram and we are ready to make peace.

[+robardin he/him]

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

She is no longer any use as an agent. Killing her would be like declaring war on the Knights Radiant. His foremost concern should be to keep Odium on Roshar. We might see a peace offer: Give us Ba-Ado-Mishram and we are ready to make peace.

Yeah, I agree, despite what Shallan assumes I don't think she's a target for elimination -- it's not like they can prevent her from sharing what she already knows about them with either Dalinar or Hoid. In fact, having their own "spy on the inside" in Ala was PERFECT for the latter concern, from their POV.

OTOH her family could be targets for either capture, or some other form of being used to apply pressure on her in terms of doing something for them in the best interests of the Ghostbloods, while pitching it as a common goal.

And if this does turn out to be a honey trap, as I hope it does, it smells like a Kelsier setutp.

[BinarySecond]

The best trap is one the prey walks into willingly.

[Elder]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

I should clarify that I meant "slavery with extra steps" as a joke and I wasn't thinking this situation is comparable to human slavery, because Lesser Spren are obviously not sapient. I agree, this is comparable to animal farms.

The question I'm asking is if it's possible to avoid trapping spren in gemstones, thus fully avoiding ethical dilemmas of trapping spren in gemstones. I think the answer is yes - turn them directly into fabrials. Or at least I think that's the way Navani should be thinking, because she just discovered that ancient fabrials are manifested spren and she should be working on replicating this process right now. 

So here’s some questions I have about this.

We know Soul Casters are made from Sapient Spren.  Are they capable of changing back?  Raboniel characterized it as a sacrifice:

Spoiler

“In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.”

Is convincing a common Spren to end its existence as a creature to permanently become a device better than capturing the in gemstones?  If the Spren can’t change back, it becomes the same problem. 

It really boils down to: is becoming a fabrial, something capable of using a radiant surge independent of any Nahel Bond, something these Spren can do without sacrificing themselves.

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Elder said:

So here’s some questions I have about this.

We know Soul Casters are made from Sapient Spren.  Are they capable of changing back?  Raboniel characterized it as a sacrifice:

  Reveal hidden contents

“In the past, my kind found it difficult to persuade spren to manifest themselves in the Physical Realm as devices. It seems Voidspren are not as naturally … self-sacrificing as those of Honor or Cultivation.”

Is convincing a common Spren to end its existence as a creature to permanently become a device better than capturing the in gemstones?  If the Spren can’t change back, it becomes the same problem. 

It really boils down to: is becoming a fabrial, something capable of using a radiant surge independent of any Nahel Bond, something these Spren can do without sacrificing themselves.

I would argue they can return to their spren state, but not on their own. Radiant spren can turn into a Shardblade and back because they are bonded, fabrial spren don't have that. And spren also needs a little bit of Stormlight to turn into a Shardblade (said in TSM afair). But with the help of a Radiant, or maybe even a Bondsmith, they should be able to change back whenever they wish to end their sacrifice.

[Sedside she/her]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

EDIT: I just realized, given the prologue, instead of seeing Mraize in there, Shallan may well get that "one more push to join, or at least to work together on this" from Thaidakar himself, in projection form. I mean, come on... From what we've seen, isn't this honey trap thing much more of a Kelsier type job than a Mraize one?

Or maybe it could be someone else. There was a character a couple of books ago who had quite the hype around him, he was also supposed to be a Surgebinder, but then all of a sudden he got himself killed by a simple stab in the face from a certain spearman with no training in fighting Shardbearers, which is a strange way for a Surgebinder to die. And then he just disappeared from the plot and everyone forgot about him. Isn't that weird?

[Elder]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I would argue they can return to their spren state, but not on their own. Radiant spren can turn into a Shardblade and back because they are bonded, fabrial spren don't have that. And spren also needs a little bit of Stormlight to turn into a Shardblade (said in TSM afair). But with the help of a Radiant, or maybe even a Bondsmith, they should be able to change back whenever they wish to end their sacrifice.

Can non-Radiant Spren (or even Radiant Spren) express the desire to no longer be an inanimate object?  The Spren of Soulcasters are characterized as “non-responsive.”

Spoiler

Soulcasters manifested as small unresponsive spren, hovering with their eyes closed. So the Soulcasters did have a captured spren. A Radiant spren, judging by their shape. Intelligent, rather than the more animal-like spren captured to power normal fabrials.

Not a fair question in that something like that can absolutely be written in.  It hasn’t yet.

perhaps there’s a way a bondsmith could do it… but there’s only 3 bondsmiths.  How many fabrials can they administrate?

I think the direction this is meant to go is the democratization of power via technology.  The current fabrial design doesn’t depend on radiants.  I’m not sure the more humane fabrials of the future should, especially such a limited group.  That would be devastatingly limiting.

[king of nowhere]

while i also get the feeling that something in shallan's mission will go horribly wrong, I wouldn't want to give too much credit to the ghostbloods. sure, they have lots of capabilities that shallan doesn't have, which is why mamy things can go wrong and at least one probably will.

but they are still bound by practicality. I doubt, for example, that everyone in there will be a decoy, or that there's a squadron of supersoldiers, for the simple reason that it's extremely inpractical to take those kind of precautions at each and every single meeting, and not justified by external threats. too much paranoia will get in the way of doing actual work.

of course, it could also be a trap, but it seems exaggerated. convoking most of your members on the planet, while planting clues, all in the hope of trapping shallan? seems, again, very risky and unpractical. there's a very high chance that shallan will miss the clues you are leaving for her, or that shallan will decide it's too dangerous to try, or that shallan will bring a full contingent of windrunners.

 

I am happy with the solution to the fabrial spren problem. it was clear, since the sibling started bringing the conflict with navani, that something would have to be done about it. I was worried it would be something extremely convenient dropping out of nowhere, but this development in spren actually fits well with what is estabished about them