Chapters 23 & 24

[Ninth of the Night]

6 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Reinforces the idea for me that there was a conflict between the Honor shard and its holder Tanavast (mirroring the conflict between Rayse and Odium).  The Honor shard demanded oaths never be modified or walked away from, Tanavast probably favored more sympathy for those caught in bad oaths (like the Heralds).

I was starting to believe that Tanavast had a hand in the death of Honor. "Our shame" seemed like an indication it might be the case. This theory makes too much sense, I'm fully on board!

7 minutes ago, Nesh said:

That guard at the Ghostblood hideout went down way to easily.  You'd think they'd at least have a Medalion or something in case I don't know, a group of Lightweavers showed up.  It almost feels like they're letting Shallan in...

Medallions aren't that common, they take a lot of effort to create. Southern Scadrians don't have genetic Allomancy either. Plus, what would that accomplish against an unexpected encasing in Radiant Armor? Something they would have little knowledge about considering there are only ~4 Radiants in the current cosmere who are of the Fourth Ideal.

[coolsnow7]

32 minutes ago, MarcieIsForager said:

Hey is it just me or was did Rushus interaction with the Sibling read in any way like Brandon actually confirming Rushu as Non-Binary

I think if someone read this 50 years ago or reads it 50 years from now, it would just go over their head. Ie in a vacuum this tells us nothing at all. But because gender is a (relatively) hot topic these days, it’s a wink from Brandon signaling that indeed Rushu is non-binary. 

17 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I don't see Shallan's infiltration attempts going well - she would probably fool most Ghostbloods, but not Iyatil or a Tineye. But I think Iyatil would let her fool the rest for a while, for a few reasons. One, it's a bit of power over Shallan and a way to limit what info (like the fact that they know where BAM is) that Shallan gets. Two, in spite of everything that the Ghostbloods manage to get access to, I'm not actually sure what they could do to a 4th Oath Radiant suddenly manifesting Plate and Blade in the middle of them. It doesn't seem like they have many offworlders that could have abilities - one or two, minus the one they choked out, and the odds that they have Radiants seem low. Even then, dealing with a full Radiant is tough.

(Although, maybe they have Dustbringers. We haven't seen Malata for a book, and RoW implied that there were other Dustbringers besides her and Ral-na, while WaT says Ral-na's the only one left in Urithiru.)

I am certain that they came armed with Aluminum leeching grenades, aluminum cages, aluminum bullets, etc. etc. If they have the initiative they can probably do whatever they want to her.

That said I think you’re correct. Iyatil will let her think she’s in control for as long as possible.

[duladen he/him]

3 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

Can Dalinar claim to be king of anything if all of humanity deserts him? Can he claim to be Honor’s representative in any meaningful way if his justification for the position he holds is “Give it to me. Now. I need it”?

Your initial comment was that Dalinar’s crisis of legitimacy would be a result of Gavilar’s return. I think Oltux’s objection was reasonable. This line of thought about humanity deserting him feels completely orthogonal to the discussion.

What is this new reasoning? Why would humanity desert Dalinar? What reasoning is there to expect that Dalinar will demand the Shard as you have described?

[Wanguu He/Him]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Navani’s idea is just a slavery with extra steps. Better than before, but why not work on manifesting Flamespren as heater fabrials, just like Soulcasters are created? They aren’t trapped, they do it willingly, they can be dismissed and replaced after some time. It’s a step in the wrong direction. Thankfully, Rushu was there to inspire Navani to domesticate Flamespren, which is a step in the right direction. 

I disagree, how is it slavery if the flamespren are doing it willingly? They're not sapient in the same way a radiant spren is, they seem to be more like an animal. Calling them as intelligent as a dog might even be a stretch. 

Besides that, it might not be possible to manifest a lesser spren as a fabrial - it was implied that the spren that are manifesting are radiant spren

[The Sovereign]

10 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I think if someone read this 50 years ago or reads it 50 years from now, it would just go over their head. Ie in a vacuum this tells us nothing at all. But because gender is a (relatively) hot topic these days, it’s a wink from Brandon signaling that indeed Rushu is non-binary. 

I am certain that they came armed with Aluminum leeching grenades, aluminum cages, aluminum bullets, etc. etc. If they have the initiative they can probably do whatever they want to her.

That said I think you’re correct. Iyatil will let her think she’s in control for as long as possible.

Aluminum is still extremely rare and expensive on Scadrial for another 20 years or so. Keep in mind that Mistborn Era 2 takes place during the Time skip between Stormlight 1-5 & Stormlight 6-10 and Aluminum Electrolysis isn't until the back end of MBE2.

Edited October 21, 2024 by The Sovereign

[coolsnow7]

2 minutes ago, duladen said:

Why would humanity desert Dalinar?

Because the reason they follow him in the first place is because he leads the Alethi - directly via Jasnah and indirectly via his previous occupation of the throne. 

If Gavilar shows up, and consequently the Alethi are no longer in his corner, there’s more than a possibility of the coalition falling apart completely - Fen and the Azish bureaucracy are pretty reluctantly involved to begin with. Whereas otherwise, no matter what happens with the Azish and Thaylens, Dalinar still has the Alethi. 

6 minutes ago, duladen said:

What reasoning is there to expect that Dalinar will demand the Shard as you have described?

The absolute bare minimum I ask is that you not put words into my mouth while complaining that my comments are “orthogonal” to the discussion. I did not claim that Dalinar would demand any Shard at all. 

1 minute ago, The Sovereign said:

Aluminum is still extremely rare and expensive on Scadrial for another 20 years or so.

Sure, this becomes a guess at “how much of a priority do the Ghostbloods put on being prepared for anything during this mission” vs. “how well-developed are they in terms of their resources to be able to afford that level of preparedness”. Based on what we’ve seen so far in terms of their resources, I’m pretty confident that if they put sufficient priority on this mission, they’ll have the tools to deal with Radiants on hand even if they’re expensive.

[The Sovereign]

58 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

Sure, this becomes a guess at “how much of a priority do the Ghostbloods put on being prepared for anything during this mission” vs. “how well-developed are they in terms of their resources to be able to afford that level of preparedness”. Based on what we’ve seen so far in terms of their resources, I’m pretty confident that if they put sufficient priority on this mission, they’ll have the tools to deal with Radiants on hand even if they’re expensive.

I'm not sure that it does though. Your timeline seems to be a bit off. I'm suggesting the Ghostbloods do not have the technology for some of this stuff at this point.
The Ghostbloods do have the technology at this point as @alder24 points out below. My timeline was in fact the one that was off.

Edited October 21, 2024 by The Sovereign
Be willing to change your mind when presented with new data.

[duladen he/him]

1 minute ago, coolsnow7 said:

Because the reason they follow him in the first place is because he leads the Alethi - directly via Jasnah and indirectly via his previous occupation of the throne. 

If Gavilar shows up, and consequently the Alethi are no longer in his corner, there’s more than a possibility of the coalition falling apart completely - Fen and the Azish bureaucracy are pretty reluctantly involved to begin with. Whereas otherwise, no matter what happens with the Azish and Thaylens, Dalinar still has the Alethi. 

The absolute bare minimum I ask is that you not put words into my mouth while complaining that my comments are “orthogonal” to the discussion. I did not claim that Dalinar would demand any Shard at all. 

I think they follow him because he’s Bondsmith bonded to the Stormfather. 

”Give it to me. Now. I need it.” Sure reads like a demand to me…

[listerfeend]

1 hour ago, coolsnow7 said:

I think we’re about to find out that Szeth just unearthed a captured Dai-Gonarthis.

I'm confused by this. The timeline we have currently really feels, to me, like it was a pretty rushed thing with BAM. Ancient Radiants found out they could trap spren in gems, figured they could do that to BAM to stop the False Desolation, went and did that, and then pretty much immediately went and broke their Oaths, causing the Recreance. When would they have had time to ALSO go get Dai-Gonarthis? If Dai-Gonarthis was imprisoned, why haven't we heard even the faintest whisper of another Unmade being trapped like BAM? They also threw BAM in the SR, why would they apparently bury DG in Shinovar? I don't feel like we have any good reason to assume that any of the other Unmade are imprisoned like BAM was...

Edited October 21, 2024 by listerfeend

[bmcclure7]

16 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Aluminum is still extremely rare and expensive on Scadrial for another 20 years or so. Keep in mind that Mistborn Era 2 takes place during the Time skip between Stormlight 1-5 & Stormlight 6-10 and Aluminum Electrolysis isn't until the back end of MBE2.

Not the Ghostbloods they already have Electrolysis

[The Sovereign]

8 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I don't feel like we have any good reason to assume that any of the other Unmade are imprisoned like BAM was...

Semantic argument, but we know from her own accounting that Re-Shephir was captured at some point by a Lightweaver. With that said, I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense that Dai-Gonarthis was imprisoned in Shinovar. It seems more likely to me that it migrates there at some point and sets up shop so to speak.

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Not the Ghostbloods they already have Electrolysis

If I remember correctly from MBE2 Electrolysis pops up while Wax lives in the Roughs. That hasn't happened yet.

Unless you are implying the Ghostbloods have it before Scadrial does, which is possible (maybe even likely) but I'm pretty sure would just be unconfirmed speculation.

Edited October 21, 2024 by The Sovereign

[bmcclure7]

1 minute ago, The Sovereign said:

Semantic argument, but we know from her own accounting that Re-Shephir was captured at some point by a Lightweaver. With that said, I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense that Dai-Gonarthis was imprisoned in Shinovar. It seems more likely to me that it migrates there at some point and sets up shop so to speak.

If I remember correctly from MBE2 Electrolysis pops up while Wax lives in the Roughs. That hasn't happened yet.

Do we know that for certain I don’t recall ever been confirmed when they invented  Electrolysis only that they already have it by the time of LM.

Actually, even if that was so they could still already have it. LM takes place during the time skip. And he was in the ruffs for several years and was married already for several years by LM so this definitely could be during before his time in the roughs

[+Oltux72 he/him]

50 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're implying? I postulated that she is considering gender because she was the one who brought it up with her question to the Sibling. It isn't like it came up organically in conversation. As for her not viewing it as binary, I say this because when the Sibling proposes that the concept of not being male or female is likely strange to Rushu, she answers that it makes sense to her.

It kind of did, at least to an arcanist. Gender is not original in spren. So she should not show surprise at a spren showing the primordial state. Gender in them is a result of human or Singer thought and the results of that was what they were just seeing in the flamespren. So for an arcanist the topic does logically arise from the situation. Why is the Stormfather male, although it must be older than sapient life on Roshar, but the Sibling, who is younger, shows the primordial state?

The only spren among the three Bondsmith-spren that shows the expected result is the Nightwatcher. The question must be fascinating to Rushu (well, even more than most things)

Edited October 21, 2024 by Oltux72
typo

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Wanguu said:

I disagree, how is it slavery if the flamespren are doing it willingly? They're not sapient in the same way a radiant spren is, they seem to be more like an animal. Calling them as intelligent as a dog might even be a stretch. 

Besides that, it might not be possible to manifest a lesser spren as a fabrial - it was implied that the spren that are manifesting are radiant spren

How are Flamespren doing it willingly? What Navani is doing now is throwing a treat into a cage and locking the gate after a dog runs into it to eat that treat. It's not a willing participation, it's still forced imprisonment, but now with deception and broken trust. Sapience isn't required for a spren to manifest as a Shardplate, Creationspren are quite willing to be manifested as a Shardplate and change based on Shallan's needs, Flamespren should be capable enough to manifest as a fabrial per Navani's instructions. Navani is already commanding Lesser Spren all around her, even if some kind of bond is needed, she should have enough Connection to them to make them into Fabrials.

 

19 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Aluminum is still extremely rare and expensive on Scadrial for another 20 years or so. Keep in mind that Mistborn Era 2 takes place during the Time skip between Stormlight 1-5 & Stormlight 6-10 and Aluminum Electrolysis isn't until the back end of MBE2.

Ghostbloods produce aluminum with electrolysis by this point. More than half of the aluminum available in Era 2 was made and sold by Ghostbloods. TLM ch 40:

Quote

“Electrolysis,” Moonlight noted. “Aluminum is actually pretty easy to make, once you know the process.”
“Wait,” Marasi said, hurrying to join her as they left the room, “you can make aluminum with electrolysis?”
“Yeah,” Moonlight said. “We’ve been using it to fund our operations for almost two decades now. I’d bet half the aluminum in the Basin came from us originally.”

 

 

21 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

Because the reason they follow him in the first place is because he leads the Alethi - directly via Jasnah and indirectly via his previous occupation of the throne. 

The reason they follow him is because he convinced them he's the right person to be followed. This isn't a legitimacy issue, Gavilar suddenly showing up won't change this, he shouldn't even get the Alethi throne back as he quite literally died. 

 

13 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I'm confused by this. The timeline we have currently really feels, to me, like it was a pretty rushed thing with BAM. Ancient Radiants found out they could trap spren in gems, figured they could do that to BAM to stop the False Desolation, went and did that, and then pretty much immediately went and broke their Oaths, causing the Recreance. When would they have had time to ALSO go get Dai-Gonarthis? If Dai-Gonarthis was imprisoned, why haven't we heard even the faintest whisper of another Unmade being trapped like BAM? They also threw BAM in the SR, why would they apparently bury DG in Shinovar? I don't feel like we have any good reason to assume that any of the other Unmade are imprisoned like BAM was...

They found the time to capture Re-Shephir, why not another Unmade? And I personally don't believe you need to be a Radiant to do it, it may be easier with powers, but having proper understanding and strong Connection to an Unmade should be enough. We didn't see Dalinar using his powers when capturing Nergaoul.

[Dofurion]

Navani's POV

• I like how the Dahn and Nahn thing is being brought up again these days.

• Navani Disney queen.

• Wednesday! Now the GODspren thing is really being considered, that's scary.

• I'm glad to see that Sibling at least isn't so intransigent as to not let them solve the fabrial thing by experimenting.

• How to Train Your Flamespren, in all Silverlight cinema!

• Regarding Rushu, remember that the Ardent are technically considered genderless in Vorin culture, so the Sibling's statement (who is unaware of that nuance and is more accustomed to the pre-betrayal culture) and Rushu's subsequent response is consistent with the present dialogue.

[The Sovereign]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ghostbloods produce aluminum with electrolysis by this point. More than half of the aluminum available in Era 2 was made and sold by Ghostbloods. TLM ch 40:

Quote

“Electrolysis,” Moonlight noted. “Aluminum is actually pretty easy to make, once you know the process.”
“Wait,” Marasi said, hurrying to join her as they left the room, “you can make aluminum with electrolysis?”
“Yeah,” Moonlight said. “We’ve been using it to fund our operations for almost two decades now. I’d bet half the aluminum in the Basin came from us originally.”

 

@coolsnow7 I stand corrected. Thank you @alder24

[teknopathetic he/him]

1 hour ago, who_slew_aicirtap said:

I have a terrible feeling that Molli is not going to make it. Also, nonbinary Rushu!!!???

Maybe Molli is an unmade! 

[Ninth of the Night]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ghostbloods produce aluminum with electrolysis by this point. More than half of the aluminum available in Era 2 was made and sold by Ghostbloods. TLM ch 40:

Moonlight implies they've only had the technology for the past ~20 years. Doesn't SA5 take place before Wax is even born? Or is it just before Lost Metal? There doesn't seem to be a concrete answer to that.

[duladen he/him]

2 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Maybe Molli is an unmade! 

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Molli! Baba Black Sheep holds my sorrow and consumes it!

[+Child of Hodor]

2 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Moonlight implies they've only had the technology for the past ~20 years. Doesn't SA5 take place before Wax is even born? Or is it just before Lost Metal? There doesn't seem to be a concrete answer to that.

The MB Era 2 novels take place between SA 5 & SA 6. 

Quote

Questioner

So the next Wax and Wayne, is that after the fifth Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Wax and Wayne ones chronologically take place in the ten year gap between Stormlight 5 and 6.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021)  

 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Moonlight implies they've only had the technology for the past ~20 years. Doesn't SA5 take place before Wax is even born? Or is it just before Lost Metal? There doesn't seem to be a concrete answer to that.

No, they've been using it for two decades to fund their organization, but they could have been producing it for even longer. Anyway, it doesn't matter as Era 2 takes place in between SA5 and SA6, which is a  10-15 years long gap. Timeline fits. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So the next Wax and Wayne, is that after the fifth Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Wax and Wayne ones chronologically take place in the ten year gap between Stormlight 5 and 6.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There's also going to be about a 15 year gap in-world between [The Stormlight Archive] arc 1 and [The Stormlight Archive] arc 2.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

8 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Maybe Molli is an unmade! 

Please, Molli is obviously the hidden Kandra.

[The Sovereign]

2 hours ago, Ninth of the Night said:

Moonlight implies they've only had the technology for the past ~20 years. Doesn't SA5 take place before Wax is even born? Or is it just before Lost Metal? There doesn't seem to be a concrete answer to that.

Wax is 42 years old during the events of Alloy of Law (341PC). During the events of TLM he is 49 years (348PC). There is a WOB that says the SL time skip is like 10-15 years. And Alloy of Law takes place during it. Even if the time skip is Rosharan years then Wax would be in his 20s-30s during Stormlight 1-5.

@Child of Hodor & @alder24 beat me to it.

Edited October 21, 2024 by The Sovereign
Correcting a spelling error.

[StanLemon]

Just now, The Sovereign said:

Wax is 42 years old during the events of Alloy of Law (341PC). During the events of TLM he is 49 years (348PC). There is a WOB that says the SL time skip is like 10-15 years. And Alloy of Law takes place during it. Even if the time skip is Rosharan years than Wax would be in his 20s-30s during Stormlight 1-5.

Hmm, about the time he met a certain Kandra

[Nesh he/him]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Hmm, about the time he met a certain Kandra

Which lines up with the letter we got from Harmony in Rhythm of War quite nicely as well.

[Ninth of the Night]

Cool so the Ghostbloods will more than likely have some aluminum defenses, but it's not like Shallan is unaware of the metal. They have it on Roshar. I guess this is another gap in my knowledge, can aluminum be used to block a Radiant's powers? Is that what powered the fabrial to interfere with Kaladin in the evacuation of Hearthstone, or would they simply be able to Leech their stormlight with a charged grenade?

I feel like I should know this stuff already but my memory feels like Taravangian sometimes.

 

Edited October 21, 2024 by Ninth of the Night