“Unite Them!” – Cultivation’s Cosmere Plan

[Confused]

Summary

I think Cultivation grooms Dalinar from his earliest days to assume both Honor and Odium. He will be the perfect War Shard. War breeds the “creative destruction” Cultivation as the Growth Shard craves. She wants to see the cosmere evolve. I also believe Cultivation wants Roshar to return to its pre-Shattering state. To restore the world of “spren, stone, and wind,” she must first rid Roshar of its troublesome Shards Honor and Odium.

Cultivation’s Actions

Cultivation has plans within plans within plans. She manipulates Taravangian and Dalinar. Shards must keep their mutual promises or face retribution. Why doesn’t Cultivation seek retribution against Odium? She says she hides from him; but Rayse seems more fearful of her. When Odium kills Tanavast, Cultivation could lend Tanavast her strength as a second Shard. She doesn’t. I believe she agrees with Odium to kill Tanavast. Tanavast is no longer the person she loves. Her long-term plan requires this sacrifice.

Cultivation knows she has to replace the unstable Rayse. Like she prunes Dalinar to prepare him for Thaylen City, Cultivation prunes Taravangian to take Rayse’s place. I believe she engineers Szeth’s possession of Nightblood at that critical moment. IIRC, possession went from Vasher to the Nightwatcher to Nale to Szeth.

Now Cultivation tells Dalinar he must “unite them” and assume the Honor Shard if he wants to defeat Odium. He must seek the Spiritual Realm and discover Roshar’s past. (Why knowledge of the past should prepare him to become Honor, I don’t know; but it’s Brandon’s narrative.) Who and what Dalinar must unite to become Honor remains unclear. Indeed, why is it necessary to “unite” anything to become Honor? Honor’s core remains intact in the Spiritual Realm.

Shard Fight!

I believe Cultivation pushes Taravangian to Splinter Honor. She pushes Dalinar to Ascend. They will meet in the Spiritual Realm. Cultivation wants them to fight. Two old friends “debating” one last time. In this fight, I think Cultivation puts her money on the warlord.

I predict Dalinar finds victory by healing Odium – uniting/bonding the Divided One’s metaphoric left brain and right brain – his inability to simultaneously think and feel:

Quote

He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

WoR, Chapter 71 Epigraph

Healing Odium unites “God’s own divine hatred” with “the virtues that give it context.” Maybe the rush of conscience at the moment of extreme rage will shock Taravangian the way Vasher shocks Denth before killing him.

I think the Dalinar-Cultivation colloquy foreshadows this. Cultivation juxtaposes the meaning of “unite them” with a question about what frightens Odium. Dalinar recalls the “I am Unity” moment.

Quote

She smiled. “Have you wondered why you are a Bondsmith?”

“To unite them,” he said.

“Yes. And what does that mean?”

“Many things, depending on interpretation,” he replied. Then he sighed. “Please just give me an answer?”

She idled beside the railing, tapping it, gazing down at the people of Urithiru below. “Have you ever known Odium to be frightened?”

Had he?

Yes. Once during a crash of transcendent power. A time when he’d sworn he’d heard Evi’s voice, and had become his own man, freed from the past. A time when he’d stared a god in the eyes, slammed his hands together, and merged three realms.

I am Unity.

WaT, Chapter 16

What most frightens Odium is the possibility Dalinar might Ascend to hold the Honor Shard. Dalinar’s Bondsmith power in Honor’s absence already allows him to make a perpendicularity at will. Dalinar stands as Odium’s equal and stares down a god. He’s a man of powerful will and Intent, even if he doesn’t yet know most of the Commands that implement his power.

But why does “Unity” frighten Odium? Is it just another name for Honor’s bonding power, a new metaphor to express Honor’s Intent differently? Why does Cultivation ask about the meaning of “unite them” first? Unity seems like a separate issue that leads into her question about Odium’s fear. I do not believe “unite them” means unite Honor’s power because Cultivation says its “core” still sits intact in the Spiritual Realm.

I suggest, therefore, she tells Dalinar to unite Odium’s feelings and intellect. This will weaken him, diminish the intensity of his rage. Odium fears weakness. He fears Unity.

Conclusion

I think Cultivation wants Dalinar to become the War Shard and destroy the cosmere to re-create it. That means the Honor and Odium Shards will leave Roshar. Their departure, IMO, opens up Roshar for the old gods of spren, stone, and wind. Kaladin/Fleet will run his race and rise as the Wind’s avatar. Rock will rise as Stone’s Knight. And Spren, well, that’s where it all begins, isn’t it? Regards! C.

Edited October 2, 2024 by Confused

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

Id need to actually reread to scene to have a proper context for this. But like the fact that Dalinar swears to have heard Evi's voice prior to opening Honors perpendicularity, kinda seems significant.

Especially cause shes Iriali, and the Iriali look at least rn like some type of Adonalsium contingency, so i wouldn't find it weird at all of her cognitive aspect was floating around somewhere.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, Confused said:

Cultivation has plans within plans within plans. She manipulates Taravangian and Dalinar. Shards must keep their mutual promises or face retribution. Why doesn’t Cultivation seek retribution against Odium? She says she hides from him; but Rayse seems more fearful of her.

Basically they are both facing the waterbird dilemma. Neither is likely to survive a victory unscathed. They then would have to face the allies of the Shard they defeated and they'd be in a state that means that they'd most likely lose catastrophically.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Confused said:

I think Cultivation grooms Dalinar from his earliest days to assume both Honor and Odium. He will be the perfect War Shard.

I strongly object to the notion that the combined Honor and Odium will be called War. Just because their combined light is called Warlight, doesn't mean their combined Shards will be called War. Will merged Honor and Cultivation be called Tower? No, that's ridiculous. Honor isn't called Storm, Odium isn't Void, those are just names for their lights, just like War is. A person Ascending to both Shard can choose the name most fitting to it - if Dalinar Ascend to War, then it will nullify all of his character development that happened in all five books, which was him learning to unite without a fight, to find a peaceful solution to conflict, stepping away from combat, not indulging in war (that was Blackthorn's thing). 

10 hours ago, Confused said:

I also believe Cultivation wants Roshar to return to its pre-Shattering state. To restore the world of “spren, stone, and wind,” she must first rid Roshar of its troublesome Shards Honor and Odium.

I don't think that's very Cultivation-like, that would be devolution, a regress, not progress and evolution. She certainly wants to get rid of the problem which is aggressive and hostile Odium.

10 hours ago, Confused said:

She says she hides from him; but Rayse seems more fearful of her.

Disagree, Rayse seems very not scared of her. He's even irritated that she hides from him - he wants to kill her, he can't because he's bound. OB ch 47:

Quote

“Yes. I’ll kill the other one too, eventually. She’s hidden herself somewhere, and I’m too … shackled.”
[...]
“And what are the consequences of my releasing you?”
“Well, first I’d see to Cultivation’s death. There would be … other consequences, as you call them, as well.”

 

10 hours ago, Confused said:

When Odium kills Tanavast, Cultivation could lend Tanavast her strength as a second Shard. She doesn’t.

She did.

Spoiler

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

Idaho Falls Signing (Nov. 28, 2015)

 

Spoiler

FirstSelector

Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got  Honor, to know how to fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

FirstSelector

And Cultivation, is she--

Brandon Sanderson

She is still there.

FirstSelector

Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before--

Brandon Sanderson

She is alive and kicking.

FirstSelector

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

10 hours ago, Confused said:

Why knowledge of the past should prepare him to become Honor, I don’t know; but it’s Brandon’s narrative.

It can grant Dalinar better understanding of what Honor is really about, which is vital for Ascension. 

10 hours ago, Confused said:

I believe Cultivation pushes Taravangian to Splinter Honor.

If that was her goal, she did it in a very twisted and opposite way - trying to convince Taravangian not to be like Rayse who wanted to kill all other Shards and become the only Shard. She even tried to convince him to end the war right now. I don't see this in her actions. WaT I-2:

Quote

“You could do it now,” she said. “Calm the Everstorm. Make peace between nations. Restore trade.”
[...]
“Not until there is but one god,” Odium whispered.
“Do not go down this path. It destroyed your predecessor.”

 

10 hours ago, Confused said:

I predict Dalinar finds victory by healing Odium – uniting/bonding the Divided One’s metaphoric left brain and right brain – his inability to simultaneously think and feel:

I don't think this is something to be healed, I think this is specifically because Taravangian doesn't view himself as Odium and separates himself from the power - that's what years of Cultivation's gift prepared him for, separating emotions from logic is the key to control Odium. 

10 hours ago, Confused said:

Healing Odium unites “God’s own divine hatred” with “the virtues that give it context.”

No, I think the virtues that give it context are all other 15 Shards. Without them, Odium is just hatred.

11 hours ago, Confused said:

I think Cultivation wants Dalinar to become the War Shard and destroy the cosmere to re-create it.

That's VERY not like Cultivation. Cultivation prunes, not destroyed totally. Recreating Cosmere isn't a Cultivation thing, Cultivation wants to see growth of things that already exist. But in the end, I do think Dalinar is a part of Cultivation's plan to fight against Odium and maybe in the long term she wants to combine Honor and Odium together. 

 

 

6 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said:

Id need to actually reread to scene to have a proper context for this. But like the fact that Dalinar swears to have heard Evi's voice prior to opening Honors perpendicularity, kinda seems significant.

Especially cause shes Iriali, and the Iriali look at least rn like some type of Adonalsium contingency, so i wouldn't find it weird at all of her cognitive aspect was floating around somewhere.

That wasn't her Cognitive aspect or Shadow, that's either Dalinar Connecting to her Spiritual corpse, or maybe he was reaching directly to her in the Beyond . 

Spoiler

dIvorrap

Was really Evi the voice that Dalinar heard when he opened Honor's perpendicularity?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (You knew it was coming.)

So here's the thing--I'm never going to confirm or deny anything from Beyond the Spiritual Realm. Because it is unfair for me to do so. I believe there is an afterlife in our world, while others (quite rationally) conclude there is not.

The Cosmere has systems in place for ghosts and things to be real, yes, but I want it to always be possible for intelligent people to disagree about things like Evi's voice. Spiritual Connection creates visions in the Cosmere that are quite realistic (like all the ones Dalinar experienced.)

What Dalinar heard here could very rationally be a version of such a vision. That's what the Death Rattles are, for example.

Or, it could be his dead wife speaking to him from beyond the grave. Navani would say that's what it is; Jasnah would say it's the first. I try very hard (despite my personal biases) to not undercut the viewpoint of someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife. It is vital to me that the author not sweep in and say, "Yeah, it's cool some characters are Atheists at all who doesn't believe in an afterlife...but nudge nudge, we both know there is one."

The existence of an afterlife (not Cognitive Shadow style, but in the Beyond) in the cosmere is subject to your own personal interpretation. Everything that happens like this CAN be explained by Realmatic Theory, with very valid examples from the books.

General Reddit 2020 (June 5, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

 

[duladen he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I strongly object to the notion that the combined Honor and Odium will be called War. Just because their combined light is called Warlight, doesn't mean their combined Shards will be called War. Will merged Honor and Cultivation be called Tower? No, that's ridiculous. Honor isn't called Storm, Odium isn't Void, those are just names for their lights, just like War is. A person Ascending to both Shard can choose the name most fitting to it - if Dalinar Ascend to War, then it will nullify all of his character development that happened in all five books, which was him learning to unite without a fight, to find a peaceful solution to conflict, stepping away from combat, not indulging in war (that was Blackthorn's thing).  

Largely agree with all your points but just want to note that Odium is referred to as the Void.

From the Eila Stele:

Quote

Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god.

 

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, duladen said:

Largely agree with all your points but just want to note that Odium is referred to as the Void.

But the Shard's name, its intent isn't Void. Just like Honor isn't Storm. That's what I meant. Void is of Odium, storms are of Honor, but that's not what the intent behind those Shards is all about. 

[BinarySecond]

What could Odium + Honor be?

Hatred plus Oaths - Wrath? Retribution?

[duladen he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

But the Shard's name, its intent isn't Void. Just like Honor isn't Storm. That's what I meant. Void is of Odium, storms are of Honor, but that's not what the intent behind those Shards is all about. 

I believe there is still a distinction here. Storms are of Honor, but Honor is not called The Storm - we're fully agreed there. The Void is of Odium, and while I agree with you that Void is not Odium's intent, Odium is quite literally referred to as the void into which all emotion is drawn. There is a MUCH more explicit equivalence between Odium/Void than there is between Honor/Storm.

Regardless of the disagreement on that point, I agree that the combination of the two would not be War. We don't really know what it would be... something that combines bonds and passion. Perhaps "Conviction" or "Righteous"? "Ardent"??

[GudThymes he/him]

1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:

Odium + Honor

Inquisition is my headcanon. Oaths that bound your "righteous" fury.

It also tracks for a potential "crusade" against other planets.

[The Stick]

I say if Szeth was to ascend to them both, his interpretation of the Oaths and Honor would be something very close to Vengeance or Retribution. After all, his entire Crusade this book is for vengeance against the Shin Shamans.

[Dofurion]

2 hours ago, GudThymes said:

Inquisition is my headcanon. Oaths that bound your "righteous" fury.

It also tracks for a potential "crusade" against other planets.

I know that Sanderson was once asked in Spain if the intent resulting from the fusion of Honor and Odium would be Justice. And he replied that it was close, but not exactly that.

The audio of that question was damaged and that is why it is not in the Arcanum, so you can say whether to take it into account or not. I trust the source quite a bit.

[Confused]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

I strongly object to the notion that the combined Honor and Odium will be called War. Just because their combined light is called Warlight, doesn't mean their combined Shards will be called War. Will merged Honor and Cultivation be called Tower? No, that's ridiculous. Honor isn't called Storm, Odium isn't Void, those are just names for their lights, just like War is. A person Ascending to both Shard can choose the name most fitting to it -

Ouch. I do say Honor + Odium = War. I really don't mean that literally; though I do make it sound that way. I don’t think we can know what the combined Intent of a Unity Shard might be. I just mean Dalinar IMO will hold both Shards and lead Rosharans to try and unify the cosmere. That role suits him.

I analyze Shard Intents differently from most people. For one thing, Brandon has still not defined what a Shard Intent is. I look at the Shard’s “primal force” and ask why Brandon chose the corresponding name. Thus, to me, Ruin is the “Entropy Shard,” Preservation is the “Stasis Shard,” and Honor is the “Bonding Shard.” I speculate Odium is the “Emotions Shard” because his Investiture manipulates both emotional Connections and the Connections that constitute the conscience.

What would be the Intent of a Shard that bonds people, manipulates emotion, and produces Warlight? Here’s Navani’s description of Warlight:

Quote

the Stormlight and the Voidlight mixed to form something that surged in brilliant raging storms, then fell still—peaceful and quiet—between.

RoW, Kindle p. 876.

Metaphorically, this describes human history: intermittent war punctuating peace. Individually, each Light appears as follows:

Quote

One orderly, organized. The other…” Her words drifted off, and her eyes narrowed. “… the other chaotic,” Raboniel whispered, “but with a logic to it.

RoW, Kindle p. 874.

This sounds like Dalinar. He’s orderly and organized. He prepares his armies and considers available tactics. But when violence is needed, he’s a chaotic killer with a murderous logic to his actions.

He’s already chosen his Shard name. “I am Unity.” I think the name signifies the unification in a single Vessel of Honor and Odium. It also signifies to me that Dalinar will bond the two aspects of Odium’s Divided nature. I think he’ll have to if he wants to hold these Shards simultaneously.

But...I can also see Dalinar holding Odium as is. Dalinar’s incredible will may find a way to deal with Odium’s contradictions. A few more months to find out...

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

if Dalinar Ascend to War, then it will nullify all of his character development that happened in all five books, which was him learning to unite without a fight, to find a peaceful solution to conflict, stepping away from combat, not indulging in war (that was Blackthorn's thing). 

Dalinar faces a choice. If he Ascends as Honor and defeats Odium, what should he do with the Shard? Will Taravangian survive as its Vessel? That wouldn’t accomplish much; he’d continue to connive. Besides, Szeth may also want a say in Taravangian’s fate once he realizes he hasn’t killed Taravangian.

If Taravangian’s gone, who would Dalinar trust to hold the Shard? He’s never been a sharing kind of guy. When he takes up Odium and, like Taravangian, feels the cosmere suffer from warlords like himself, will he just do nothing?

Dal will try to “unite without a fight, find a peaceful solution to conflict, step away from combat, not indulge in war.” But human history tells us there’s never a “War to End War,” just the “Next War.” As Navani notes, Warlight looks like “brilliant raging storms, then...still—peaceful and quiet—between.” That will be Dalinar, making peace whenever he can through the stately, orderly organization of Honor; knowing the chaotic logic of Odium is often inevitable.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think that's very Cultivation-like, that would be devolution, a regress, not progress and evolution. She certainly wants to get rid of the problem which is aggressive and hostile Odium.

Here’s what Raboniel tells Navani about Roshar:

Quote

That is our terrible secret. We hear the rhythms, we understand Roshar and the spren. But the rhythms don’t change. The spren don’t change.

RoW, Kindle p. 871.

IMO, this is the main reason Cultivation acts behind-the-scenes of everything on Roshar. The Growth Shard can’t abide such stagnation. Roshar will now grow as it should, not devolve. Honor and Odium suppress Roshar with their Desolations. They cut off interactions between Honor/Cultivation’s spren and voidspren, as the latter are often isolated on Braize. Spren are the personification of ideas. If you also separate the Singer and human populations, the lack of cultural exchanges itself limits spren growth.

Sja-anat “enlightens” spren by introducing Odium into their Spiritweb. Roshar’s tones now include the Rhythm of War. If Stormlight + Voidlight = Warlight, and Stormlight + Lifelight = Towerlight, what does Lifelight + Voidlight =? I think Roshar will grow just fine without Honor and Odium always hanging around.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

If that was her goal, she did it in a very twisted and opposite way - trying to convince Taravangian not to be like Rayse who wanted to kill all other Shards and become the only Shard. She even tried to convince him to end the war right now.

IMO, Cultivation uses “reverse psychology” on Taravangian. There’s a song in the musical play The Fantasticks that includes the lines, “Why did the kids put beans in their ears...They did it ‘cause we said ‘No.’” Taravangian is a relative child compared with Cultivation. Having been inside his head, she knows what he's likely to do when opposed. I think she wants him to challenge an Ascended Dalinar, as Taravangian has so often challenged him before. Their debates foreshadow this fight.

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think this is something to be healed, I think this is specifically because Taravangian doesn't view himself as Odium and separates himself from the power - that's what years of Cultivation's gift prepared him for, separating emotions from logic is the key to control Odium.

I disagree. Odium wouldn’t be the most dangerous Shard if he could control himself. Separating emotions from logic is not a prescription for control; rather, the opposite. That’s what blind rage is. Rayse was the “Broken One” for several reasons; this schism between emotions and logic is one. Odium under Taravangian is the “Divided One.” Their similar nicknames can’t be coincidental. Taravangian’s boon/curse didn’t separate emotions from logic. He fluctuated between intelligence and compassion in varying degrees each day. Some days he had average capacities of both.

I might have overstated Cultivation’s projected cosmere changes. But letting Dalinar loose in the cosmere will definitely transform things. I still feel that’s her ultimate plan. Thanks for the comments! C.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Confused

[BinarySecond]

Perhaps Retribution?

 

retribution /rĕt″rə-byoo͞′shən/

Noun

1. Punishment administered in return for a wrong committed.
2. Punishment or reward distributed in a future life based on performance in this one.
3. The act of retributing; repayment.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Confused said:

Dalinar faces a choice. If he Ascends as Honor and defeats Odium, what should he do with the Shard?

By this I meant that if Dalinar merges both Shards, they won't create War because that's not the direction Dalinar's character is going. He can merge them into something else - Unity like you proposed. It all depends on his interpretation of those Shards when he combines them. There is no one, fixed name for merged Shards, a Vessel has a lot to say about it. I highly doubt Dalinar will just choose War after all he did to step away from war.

9 hours ago, Confused said:

Here’s what Raboniel tells Navani about Roshar:

Quote

That is our terrible secret. We hear the rhythms, we understand Roshar and the spren. But the rhythms don’t change. The spren don’t change.

RoW, Kindle p. 871.

 

Raboniel is wrong here. Rhythms do change - Odium's pure tone was incorporated into Roshar in recent times, it wasn't like this before Recreance. Spren do change - we see this with the Stormfather (who was changed massively by Honor and is changing through his bond), with Nightwatcher (whose entire deal is to grow organically) and with other sprens (like Highspren who chose to side with Odium or others). Roshar as the whole is ever changing. 

9 hours ago, Confused said:

I disagree. Odium wouldn’t be the most dangerous Shard if he could control himself.

He is the most dangerous because it's so hard to control. It's not that it's impossible to control, it's just hard. Rayse chose Odium because it matched his personality and selfishness very well - he was a bad choice because he was a bad person before Ascension. 

10 hours ago, Confused said:

Rayse was the “Broken One” for several reasons; this schism between emotions and logic is one.

There is no evidence that Rayse also had the same separation as Taravangian has. Nobody called Rayse the Broken One and one Death Rattle talking about unknown time and event is not enough proof. This Death Rattle may very likely talk about Taravangian after WaT. 

[Master Silver]

It was mentioned earlier that that Odium is primarily, divine hatred, but I think divine wrath is a better description. Taravangian sees a starving child, and it stirs up his emotions, the strongest of which is fury, or divine wrath. Combining the Shard of Honor with Odium, should change the Shard from Divine Wrath to Divine Justice (hopefully tempered by mercy). What happened to Tanavast towards the end was that the Shard overcame him, and he cared more about the oath than why it was taken. He was a bit like Nale. But empathy should temper the Law. So really, although we may end up with a more violate Shard than Honor, it would be far more controlled than Odium. And if divine justice looks like visiting judgment on petty gods, then perhaps for a time the Shard does become War, but after the war is over it returns to the Shard of Justice.  

[BinarySecond]

On 10/2/2024 at 4:47 PM, BinarySecond said:

What could Odium + Honor be?

Hatred plus Oaths - Wrath? Retribution?

I don't often absolutely nail it but I'm gonna say I absolutely nailed it.

[Argenti he/him]

5 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

I don't often absolutely nail it but I'm gonna say I absolutely nailed it.

Yeah you kinda cooked here.