Probably unpopular opinion about WaT sample chapters

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

And here comes the 29th chapter and the conversation solely about Sigzil being hot, Drehy being hot, Drehy's husband being hot, people farting inside the Tower, and bacteria farting inside Lift.

Partially true. Lift is annoying. However, I think the chapter is necessary to show how a smart, but quite conventional mind, namely Lift's, is exposed to a wider world where the conventional assumptions fall apart.

That leaves the question why he is putting it there. My suspicion is that he has needed to establish that Lift's chicken and Zahel are not present. Explaining why Zahel was not in Urithiru when Raboniel invaded is easy, as a sword master ardent is supposed to be in the field when a battle is expected.

(Nalthis & First of the Sun)

Spoiler

Now it would just be inconvinient to have one of the Five Scholars around when dealing with the Spiritual Realm. It could also mean that something where the aviar's capabilities would matter is about to happen.

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Oltux72
Arguably spoilers

[Sedside she/her]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That leaves the question why he is putting it there. My suspicion is that he has needed to establish that Lift's chicken and Zahel are not present. Explaining why Zahel was not in Urithiru when Raboniel invaded is easy, as a sword master ardent is supposed to be in the field when a battle is expected.

I agree that this chapter did have plot relevance, Lift's interactions with Gavinor are also, I think, very important. And even the fact of her ogling men is as well, because she is in puberty and so on, I just wish it would be written better. Why all of this toilet humor? It looks like a filler, like Lift's pov was too short and so he had to write something else there, so he decided to write some "funny Lift stuff", which is not funny at all to my taste. I mean, if you want to write Lift ogling men and thinking about Zahel leaving the tower before the occupation, why not write Lift pov during the strategy meeting, she could look at a lot of men there and also think about Zahel, while there would also be a lot of other things that are important for the plot or something like that? But instead we have a long pov about ogling men, farting, bacteria living in humans, Wyndle being a druff, and tons of other odd stuff, and among the odd stuff we have two useful bits of info - Zahel and Gavinor.

It's almost as bad as Kaladin thinking about how odd Shinovar plants are and discussing it with Szeth for three povs, and almost nothing else happening. Only because they are my two favourite boys I can stand them talking about plants, which are not weird to people from Earth at all, for some chapters, but not forever, because sooner or later I can get bored even with them, lol.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Sedside

[+Oltux72 he/him]

26 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Why all of this toilet humor? It looks like a filler, like Lift's pov was too short and so he had to write something else there, so he decided to write some "funny Lift stuff", which is not funny at all to my taste. I mean, if you want to write Lift ogling men and thinking about Zahel leaving the tower before the occupation, why not write Lift pov during the strategy meeting, she could look at a lot of men there and also think about Zahel, while there would also be a lot of other things that are important for the plot or something like that? But instead we have a long pov about ogling men, farting, bacteria living in humans, Wyndle being a druff, and tons of other odd stuff, and among the odd stuff we have two useful bits of info - Zahel and Gavinor.

Because you need to show that she is maturing intellectually, not just sexually. Lift is not stupid, but she is not cosmopolitan for lack of a better word. In the Sibling she is meeting somebody truly alien. True, Wyndle is not human, but spren are known on Roshar.

We are getting character stuff in addition. For example she showing ambition for a leadership position.

[Sedside she/her]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because you need to show that she is maturing intellectually, not just sexually. Lift is not stupid, but she is not cosmopolitan for lack of a better word. In the Sibling she is meeting somebody truly alien. True, Wyndle is not human, but spren are known on Roshar.

We are getting character stuff in addition. For example she showing ambition for a leadership position.

Well, if this is Brandon's way to write intellectual maturing, then I can't agree more with what @VirtuousTraveller has written.

[+Child of Hodor]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

I agree that this chapter did have plot relevance, Lift's interactions with Gavinor are also, I think, very important. And even the fact of her ogling men is as well, because she is in puberty and so on, I just wish it would be written better. Why all of this toilet humor? It looks like a filler, like Lift's pov was too short and so he had to write something else there, so he decided to write some "funny Lift stuff", which is not funny at all to my taste. I mean, if you want to write Lift ogling men and thinking about Zahel leaving the tower before the occupation, why not write Lift pov during the strategy meeting, she could look at a lot of men there and also think about Zahel, while there would also be a lot of other things that are important for the plot or something like that? But instead we have a long pov about ogling men, farting, bacteria living in humans, Wyndle being a druff, and tons of other odd stuff, and among the odd stuff we have two useful bits of info - Zahel and Gavinor.

It's almost as bad as Kaladin thinking about how odd Shinovar plants are and discussing it with Szeth for three povs, and almost nothing else happening. Only because they are my two favourite boys I can stand them talking about plants, which are not weird to people from Earth at all, for some chapters, but not forever, because sooner or later I can get bored even with them, lol.

Brandon's humor writing is always very hit or miss for me. His "funny" characters like Lift, Lopen and Wayne are best in small doses for me. I did like the Sibling telling her she has little organisms all over her. 

I'm with you on the Shinovar chapters. Part of it is the sample chapter week wait in between but I'm like "Come oooon. Don't make camp and talk about plants. Go in the temple I wanna see the Unmade!".

[+Oltux72 he/him]

27 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Well, if this is Brandon's way to write intellectual maturing, then I can't agree more with what @VirtuousTraveller has written.

I need to note that we are talking about maturing, not maturity. Brandon does it that way on the strategic level, too. We got the first few weeks of the war in Oathbringer and starting with Rhythm of War we have been getting the last few weeks. If you want to point out her state on the day she decided to accept change you will start on a low. She is annoying.

Yet I cannot agree that it is forced. That chapter is in character for Lift. That exactly is the issue.

19 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Brandon's humor writing is always very hit or miss for me. His "funny" characters like Lift, Lopen and Wayne are best in small doses for me. I did like the Sibling telling her she has little organisms all over her.

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

Henderwym rulez !!!

 

20 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I'm with you on the Shinovar chapters. Part of it is the sample chapter week wait in between but I'm like "Come oooon. Don't make camp and talk about plants. Go in the temple I wanna see the Unmade!".

You are looking at an experienced officer and expect him to needlessly rush into a confrontation with an Unmade?

[king of nowhere]

lift is just like that. she mixes inanity with deep moments. i liked her line about stuff that you are told not to do, and stuff you really should not do, and nobody telling the difference; it was actually a profund way to express an antiauthoritarian, but good, person.

in the end, i'm not a lift fan, but i decided to accept her. you can't read something as big as the stormlight archive and expect to like every pow character. and hey, at least lift has much better tastes in men than vin had during her zane phase.

[+robardin he/him]

Not every single passage of every single chapter is going to "advance the plot", that would be kind of terrible in its own way.

This is a facet of reading a book two chapters at a time -- something you will finish reading in about 15-20 minutes -- from a work that will end up with upwards of 150 chapters including prologue/epilogue and interludes, and should take you many hours to consume, over days or weeks. And then to re-read (with a focus on certain chapters/passages), to digest properly.

There are going to be "chapters" that are devoted to worldbuilding (including as we reach new places and cultures like Shinovar or Natan), character personal growth, interpersonal relationship growth, with "color passages" for humor (yes, that can be hit or miss for readers), pathos, some "easter egg" type Cosmere references dribbled in, etc., etc.

Expecting every chapter to contain all of those things, or to focus on just one of those things, or to "just move the plot along", would clearly make for bad storytelling.

A lot of these will smooth out simply from reading more naturally.

Edited November 12, 2024 by robardin

[Lacra Maldita]

On 10/31/2024 at 11:16 AM, VirtuousTraveller said:

I almost think it's the opposite.

To be fair, I fully recognize that every group of fans is made up of people from diverse backgrounds, interests, etc, so what doesn't work for me DOESN'T mean it isn't working for SOMEONE.

That said, I feel (and boy I don't want this to hit anyone the wrong way) Sanderson is leaning WAY more into the anime culture versus serious prose.  Mistborn literally rekindled my love of reading almost a decade ago, and I've held up Brandon's work as our generation's Tolken when talking to other people.  That's how well-executed Mistborn Era 1, The Alloy of Law, Stormlight 1 and 2 (arguably even 3), Elantris, Warbreaker, and the cosmere short stories and novellas seemed to be (especially with the interconnectedness of the stories, which didn't feel cheap or gimmicky - it felt like a real mystery I wanted to uncover).

Someone else said it above - while all the merch is "kind of" cool, this "commercialization of the cosmere" is cheapening it, and the stories and characters feel more gimmicky and flat as a result.

I am so grateful to Brandon for inspiring my love for reading, and I've seen him do the same for so many people in my life.  I just hate to see a shift from legitimately quality literature to a very subculture niche that appeals almost exclusively to the quirky and intensely invested fans of this specific author.

This shift is bad for everyone - the subculture suffers from content that is basically just fan fiction (and not well executed fan fiction based on recent work), and the broader reading community suffers from a higher threshold for quirkiness to engage with the work.

I grumble about Lift a lot, and if it was a one off "let's let Brandon cook and see the payoff" example, I wouldn't feel this way.  But reading Edgedancer, watching the quality of Wayne's writing fall in line with the quirky (versus witty), and seeing the chunks of "silly" fan fiction in The Lost Metal (and The Sunlit Man), it's harder to ignore.  And I'd say don't get me started on Design (who is the next iteration of "he he ho ho, laugh see are you laughing because funny ha ha") but:

So glad we've got more Design in the future (::sarcasmspren appears::).  Oh and Lift is a major character in the back 5 of Stormlight?  Just watch - we're going to see a KICKSTARTER EXCLUSIVE shardfork (which is just a fork, with some etching), Roshar's favorite 10th variety Aunt Gem-Mai-ma pancakes, and straight from the Noodle Pupil syrup that's SO YUMI it'll RAYSE your BEU by it's over 9,000!

(I can say that last bit, because I'm tying this while wearing a Super Saiyan Goku costume today - it's Halloween afterall!)

Brandon, I love you, but it's ok (I say, knowing he'll read this).  I'm not mad, just worried.  The intent of the Shard of Ca-Pi-Talism you're holding is warping your thoughts.  You can sell socks.  You can host conventions.  That's ok - it really is!  But I implore you - don't JUST sell us products - write stories to fill the gaps in our spirit webs and make our collective body of human literature better.

Mike drop.

"Sanderson is leaning more into anime culture than prose." I find that an arrogant opinion. As a consumer of manga/anime and video games, I think it's great that Sanderson takes elements from those media. It makes him more versatile. Even in Japanese and Chinese light novels and webnovels you can find good stories. Prejudices always exist. We as fantasy readers are sometimes singled out by some elitist saying that fantasy is not real literature. Then you see Nobel Prize winners in literature that are a joke.

[+robardin he/him]

To put the objections of "awkward pacing" in preview chapters into context:

If we assume the final work is the equivalent of 150 early release chapters (including the prologue, epilogue, and interludes), then each Monday we are getting 2/150 of the final work.

If this were an "epic length" 2h30 movie (150 minutes), that would be like getting two MINUTES per week.

Or, if you are reading these early release chapters in 15 minutes, the total "reading time" for the work will end up being about 19-20 HOURS.

You cannot really judge pacing or flow from these chapters, just appreciate the "advance knowledge" of certain things (like Felt and Ala working with/for the Ghostbloods to capture Kalak, Mraize and Iyatil having bonded "enlightened" Inkspren or something, and so on).

If Lift or Shallan POVs have always annoyed you, well that ain't a-stopping any time soon.

[Luckey420]

Love all his cosmere books. But this book is more adult content than I expected. Other authors I was always assuming ya it could happen but not Brandon. You dirty little scamp. Just glad Kal and syl look to hook up. With physical manifestations by shallan things could have got tricky in her relationship. Those dark smoldering eyes of his

I think Brandon is standing up to his church. kept things low key now the chull is out of the bag. Unless it's syls. 

[Subvisual Haze]

On 10/30/2024 at 2:12 PM, Display-Names-Are-Stupid said:

100% agree with the cartoon-y feel you describe. Leans more into an anime feel than serious prose, which I suppose was what he was going for, but I feel it's executed quite in a clunky way when you think about his earlier works. Not that authors can't try new things, but that doesn't mean they will be good at them. I think Sanderson is trying to appeal to everyone, and it comes off feeling like a patchwork quilt. 

I keep finding myself reading new chapters and thinking "I know exactly which subset of the fandom this was written to directly appeal to".

[VirtuousTraveller]

3 hours ago, Lacra Maldita said:

"Sanderson is leaning more into anime culture than prose." I find that an arrogant opinion. As a consumer of manga/anime and video games, I think it's great that Sanderson takes elements from those media. It makes him more versatile. Even in Japanese and Chinese light novels and webnovels you can find good stories. Prejudices always exist. We as fantasy readers are sometimes singled out by some elitist saying that fantasy is not real literature. Then you see Nobel Prize winners in literature that are a joke.

I'm not criticizing manga/anime or video games.  I believe these media forms are great for storytelling and I enjoy them myself.  I'm describing a shift in tone that leans more into "snippy silly quirky" that has slipped into poorly executed writing that relies on a smaller subset of the fandom for validation that it's "good."  

I'm also a Stephen King fan, so I'm not above potty humor.  That said, seeing that Lift is crackin' stormin' sillies about farting, and then saying this is done to show a contrast between maturity and immaturity - this feels like a cheap way to illustrate that contrast.  That doesn't mean some people aren't going to laugh at Lift or Design or didja see didja see he he ho ho poop!

If it was just a single character, or even a single story, ok.  But it's been an expanding presence in the cosmere, and it's been this "cartoon-y" reduction of stories that stands in contrast to how strong these stories started in earlier books.  Quality fantasy literature is different than Spongebob.  They can both be enjoyed for what they are - I just hope we see a reverse in the trend that expects a larger population of readers to take it seriously.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

You cannot really judge pacing or flow from these chapters, just appreciate the "advance knowledge" of certain things (like Felt and Ala working with/for the Ghostbloods to capture Kalak, Mraize and Iyatil having bonded "enlightened" Inkspren or something, and so on).

Well, the book began with multiple bangs and immediately hit a lull. The pacing is a bit unusual. That does not mean that it is bad, but it is different from the other Stormlight books. I must say that the ending of Rhythm of War felt forced. There was no good reason for all threads of action to end simultaneously. In turn Wind and Truth has a beginning that also seems forced. They are all in Urithiru so that the book can start coherently.

[Wanguu He/Him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I must say that the ending of Rhythm of War felt forced. There was no good reason for all threads of action to end simultaneously. In turn Wind and Truth has a beginning that also seems forced. They are all in Urithiru so that the book can start coherently.

In RoW Shallan and Adolin's story (pretty much) ended in part 4. The other two main stories, Kaladin and Navani, ended at the same time because they were fundamentally the same struggle. I think RoW probably had the best pacing from endings, besides maybe The Way of Kings. Dalinar's part in the end is very small, mostly just the Ishar chapter, but that was something that was good to be kept to the end because of a hook. Otherwise, the Dalinar chapters were half about intervening with Kaladin.

And everyone returning to Urithiru only makes sense, why do you consider it unnatural? Most of the characters were either already there or trying to get back. Adolin and Shallan didn't even know the tower was occupied.

[Subvisual Haze]

11 hours ago, Lacra Maldita said:

"Sanderson is leaning more into anime culture than prose."

Perhaps instead of anime, shonen would be a more accurate specifier.  (Or Marvel.  Or YA.)

There does seem to be a distinct change in the writing vibe compared to the earlier books.  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, Wanguu said:

And everyone returning to Urithiru only makes sense, why do you consider it unnatural? Most of the characters were either already there or trying to get back. Adolin and Shallan didn't even know the tower was occupied.

Because that return is not natural. It ruins several chances. They should be investigating the cause and consequences of the Recreance. They have outworlders to talk to. They should do so.

Secondly, why is Dalinar sending out Kaladin and Szeth? As soon as Dalinar learns that their mission will not help in the contest, he should delay them by a few days. Or alternatively, send a larger force. Two men against an Unmade?

[Lacra Maldita]

11 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Perhaps instead of anime, shonen would be a more accurate specifier.  (Or Marvel.  Or YA.)

There does seem to be a distinct change in the writing vibe compared to the earlier books.  

When I was first reading Mistborn, it gave me vibes of reading a shonen nekketsu. And I loved that.

[Wanguu He/Him]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because that return is not natural. It ruins several chances. They should be investigating the cause and consequences of the Recreance. They have outworlders to talk to. They should do so.

They returned because their goal was accomplished, no? It seemed that in RoW that the outworlders didn't want to talk to them. Most of the people couldn't even enter the town; they weren't welcome there, and the windrunners had arrived to bring them back anyways. Shallan and Adolin are important, someone else can talk to the outworlders if they'll listen. 

What other chances does it ruin?

 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Secondly, why is Dalinar sending out Kaladin and Szeth? As soon as Dalinar learns that their mission will not help in the contest, he should delay them by a few days. Or alternatively, send a larger force. Two men against an Unmade?

Because Szeth asked to go on his crusade. Dalinar could've ordered Szeth to go fight in the shattered plains, but he is honorable (as seen when he gave The Mink forces to take back Herdaz, something which wasn't really a great idea) and he wouldn't say no to Szeth. Since Dalinar is planning to be his own champion, he doesn't need Szeth/Kaladin in Urithiru to fight. You also know why they can't send a large force - they don't have the men. They need to protect what they already have.

 They need to know what is going on in Shinovar before the contest so they can try to have more land on Honor's side. Kaladin already expressed that he doesn't wish to fight again - he says so at the end of Rythm of War.

And two men against an unmade? Shallan essentially defeated the Midnight Mother herself - and Szeth and Kaladin are more capable now than she was then. Nighblood itself could probably defeat an unmade.

----


I feel that many of the complaints that people have right now would be assuaged if they re-read rhythm of war. I missed SO MUCH of the book on my first read - it is absolutely worth a re-read. People hate the science portions; they're not as much of the book as you remember.

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 11/12/2024 at 3:37 PM, VirtuousTraveller said:

That said, seeing that Lift is crackin' stormin' sillies about farting, and then saying this is done to show a contrast between maturity and immaturity - this feels like a cheap way to illustrate that contrast.

I'm in the midst of my reread of Rhythm of War in preparation for Wind and Truth, and the interaction between Adolin and Shallan in Shadesmar strikes the silly-quality prose balance really well.  Adolin's story about his first crush and not understanding the inuendo implied by "sword" is silly, but the prose articulates his conflict about the pretty girl being mean to his disabled brother so beautifully (and not cheap):

Quote

Adolin:  "I don't think I'd ever realized, until that moment, that a person could be beautiful and ugly at the same time.  When you're a teenage boy, you want the beautiful people to be truly beautiful.  It's hard to see otherwise, stupid as it sounds."

THAT'S quality literature right there.  It melds into the larger themes and philosophy woven throughout the Stormlight Archive about appearances not always being true to what someone (or something) truly is on the inside/at their core/in the Spiritual Realm etc (i.e. slave is a radiant, Blackthorn is a monster, kings doing things that are unkinglike, Shallan being more than the personas/illusions she creates).

Brandon is a quirky person - I wouldn't expect this to never shine through in his work, especially as he becomes more comfortable with a larger audience that frees him to be himself more and more (both financially and fandom-wise).  I just hope the execution of his writing comes through more consistently like this moment (ha ha sword penis joke ha...BUT ALSO wow it's actually a really impactful moment for the characters that aligns with the logic and emotional development of the story and its characters).

[Kfish]

21 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I'm in the midst of my reread of Rhythm of War in preparation for Wind and Truth, and the interaction between Adolin and Shallan in Shadesmar strikes the silly-quality prose balance really well.  Adolin's story about his first crush and not understanding the inuendo implied by "sword" is silly, but the prose articulates his conflict about the pretty girl being mean to his disabled brother so beautifully (and not cheap):

THAT'S quality literature right there.  It melds into the larger themes and philosophy woven throughout the Stormlight Archive about appearances not always being true to what someone (or something) truly is on the inside/at their core/in the Spiritual Realm etc (i.e. slave is a radiant, Blackthorn is a monster, kings doing things that are unkinglike, Shallan being more than the personas/illusions she creates).

Brandon is a quirky person - I wouldn't expect this to never shine through in his work, especially as he becomes more comfortable with a larger audience that frees him to be himself more and more (both financially and fandom-wise).  I just hope the execution of his writing comes through more consistently like this moment (ha ha sword penis joke ha...BUT ALSO wow it's actually a really impactful moment for the characters that aligns with the logic and emotional development of the story and its characters).

It's worth remembering that the siy and juvenile nature of Lift is just part of her and not part of the deeper impact of the moment. I'm not a huge fan of Hoid for similar reasons. 

 

That said, I think this chapter had a deeper moment when Lift talked about doing things people think you'll shouldn't. That is extremely poignant for Lift considering that's basically what motivated Dalinar in the first book "this isn't what alethi do, but they're wrong". 

Its also worth noting that this chapter had tons of growth for Lift as a character. We see her interacting with someone who feels forgotten- furthering her oaths. We see her recognize she should be a good role model for Gav. Ignoring her checking out windrunners because that felt a little forced, but we also see her decide not to disobey Dalinar's orders. It's a huge character growth moment that I suspect will help us connect this Lift with back-half Lift. 

 

Dont get me wrong, i think part 1 paying was very rough and had my own complaints but this chapter did a decent job in my opinion of showing that they're about to go to the Spiritual Realm while also showing character growth for Lift. 

 

 

 

[Subvisual Haze]

So far I've been struck by just how much time characters talk about things that are going to happen later in the book.  This level of setup seems excessive.  It has a strange "tune in next chapter!" vibe where characters keep talking about doing things instead of just doing them.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

So far I've been struck by just how much time characters talk about things that are going to happen later in the book.  This level of setup seems excessive.  It has a strange "tune in next chapter!" vibe where characters keep talking about doing things instead of just doing them.

Good point. That would be explained by their plans going awry horribly as they are implemented. If that happens you need to explain why they are acting the way they are acting, lest it look like a whole bunch of plot holes.

Let's say that the duel of champions is decided by Dalinar not showing up. That would feel forced if the possibility were not introduced before he made the trip. As that would be too obvious I don't think that will happen. But something else looks likely.
After all there has to be a second set of books, which need open issues or new issues arising from Wind and Truth.

[+robardin he/him]

On 11/15/2024 at 3:14 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

So far I've been struck by just how much time characters talk about things that are going to happen later in the book.  This level of setup seems excessive.  It has a strange "tune in next chapter!" vibe where characters keep talking about doing things instead of just doing them.

Most of this book is going to take place over a ten day span or so.

So, mostly you have that POV because you're spending an entire week thinking about 20 minutes or so of reading, and thus viewing all the "action" as "setup".

If I were in Dalinar's position and wondering what would happen in eight days for a Contest of Champions, with himself as champion, to the death, to decide the fate of the world, not to mention potentially becoming an immortal and eternal slave to Odium should he lose...

You'd better believe I'd expect him to be heavily focused on worrying over, discussing, and planning for what might or could or has to happen within the next 6-8 days. It should be on everybody's mind, on Team Dalinar.

(Who knows what Team Odium is doing, but with Taravangian now the Vessel in charge, things just got a lot craftier than with Rayse.)

And then there are the Ghostbloods, or at least the subgroup led by Iyatil, who are focused on something really close at hand: hitching a ride into the Spiritual Realm on Dalinar's coattails in the next 24 hours in order to ferret out access to Mishram-in-a-gem, for reasons we still don't fully understand -- what do they think they'll be able to do if they got that gem??

Edited November 17, 2024 by robardin

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 hours ago, robardin said:

You'd better believe I'd expect him to be heavily focused on worrying over, discussing, and planning for what might or could or has to happen within the next 6-8 days. It should be on everybody's mind, on Team Dalinar.

Until the moment when it becomes clear that things are going awry, as they are with Cultivation delivering her message. Then a good officer would prepare as quickly as possible and as thoroughly as necessary and then act. You might argue that Dalinar is still preparing, but then why are those preparations depicted in fine minutiae?