Who’s talking to Kaladin? / Who is the Wind discussion

Lord Spirit · August 5, 2024

So in chapter two, Kaladin hears “the wind” talking to him and asking for help. Who is it? My best guess is that it’s somehow Tanavast. This is mainly based on some similarities with how Harmony talked to Wax.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Lord Spirit

alder24 · August 5, 2024

5 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

So in chapter two, Kaladin hears “the wind” talking to him and asking for help. Who is it? My best guess is that it’s somehow Tanavast. This is mainly based on some similarities with how Harmony talked to Wax.

This is confusing me too. I also thought it's Tanavast at first, it sounds like Harmony and Preservation, but that "come to me" threw me off-tracks. I don't know who it might be waiting for him in Shinovar. Sja-Anat maybe? She was the only one close to Taravangian in the moment of his Ascension to know he's the new Odium - but I don't think she can use wind to talk, she uses her spren for that. Ishar is mad, he doesn't talk like this and he shouldn't know about TOdium. Really, the only reasonable person left is Tanavast. After all, Kaladin is the Son of Tanavast, this has to come up eventually.

CtrlAltDepressed · August 5, 2024

27 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

So in chapter two, Kaladin hears “the wind” talking to him and asking for help. Who is it? My best guess is that it’s somehow Tanavast. This is mainly based on some similarities with how Harmony talked to Wax.

I was thinking Tanavast as well.

Another possibility is Cultivation / Nightwatcher.

It seemed implied that the voice was asking for help again, rather than for the first time.

Nathrangking · August 5, 2024

My guess would actually be Mishram. He might become something akin to her avatar. It would fit his need to connect.

Lord Spirit · August 5, 2024

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This is confusing me too. I also thought it's Tanavast at first, it sounds like Harmony and Preservation, but that "come to me" threw me off-tracks. I don't know who it might be waiting for him in Shinovar. Sja-Anat maybe? She was the only one close to Taravangian in the moment of his Ascension to know he's the new Odium - but I don't think she can use wind to talk, she uses her spren for that. Ishar is mad, he doesn't talk like this and he shouldn't know about TOdium. Really, the only reasonable person left is Tanavast. After all, Kaladin is the Son of Tanavast, this has to come up eventually.

Kaladin reconizes the voice as the wind. Maybe Tanavast uses the wind the same way preservation uses the mists.

Also for evidence that Tanavast is alive, it’s been said several times that “Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men”. So nobody is holding the shard, but maybe Tanavast got split between The Stormfather and humans when Honor was shattered

Edited August 5, 2024 by Lord Spirit

RedBlue · August 5, 2024

Given that the Wind asks for help and directs Kaladin to ‘listen to the Bondsmith,’ and said Bondsmith is telling Kaladin to go to Shinovar, I think the Wind could be an Unmade who is in some sort of trouble in Shinovar.

It’s probably an Unmade we don’t know much about from previous books, since the Unmade we’re familiar with don’t fit the profile.

Subvisual Haze · August 5, 2024

Cognitive shadow of Honor/Tanavast seems the most likely. Most likely the same "Stormfather" we saw talking to Gavilar in the Prologue.

Quote

"You are… that same voice said softly. You are what I need…"

compare with

Quote

You do not reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel… you are not the champion I need. Maybe… I’ve been wrong all this time.

slavagh · August 5, 2024

I think he is talking to Odium. Odium is manipulating him to become the champion of Dalinar. Maybe Kaladin's participation will give him the desirable outcome.

listerfeend · August 5, 2024

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

This is confusing me too. I also thought it's Tanavast at first, it sounds like Harmony and Preservation, but that "come to me" threw me off-tracks. I don't know who it might be waiting for him in Shinovar. Sja-Anat maybe? She was the only one close to Taravangian in the moment of his Ascension to know he's the new Odium - but I don't think she can use wind to talk, she uses her spren for that. Ishar is mad, he doesn't talk like this and he shouldn't know about TOdium. Really, the only reasonable person left is Tanavast. After all, Kaladin is the Son of Tanavast, this has to come up eventually.

Why does any of this conversation make you think the "voice" knows that Odium's Vessel has changed? Just curious, you seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on it knowing about TOdium, and nothing about the exchange seems to indicate knowledge, or the lack thereof, of T's Ascension.

I think it's very interesting that the voice can seem to hear Kal's thoughts

Quote

So who was he? What was he?

You are… that same voice said softly. You are what I need…

So, what do we know about things being able to speak into minds? My brain isn't working very well today, but I think that Ruin could speak into the minds of people that had spikes, or were mentally unstable enough, but I don't think he could hear their thoughts? Would Tanavast's CS have that ability? Why would it have that ability? It's no longer got the juice of a Shard behind it.

Whoever was talking to Gavilar also couldn't seem to read his mind. This leads me further from Tanavast being the voice. Considering Stormfather has melded with Tanavast, and Stormfather can't read the mind of Gavilar, or Dalinar from what I can remember.... and the voice says "come to me" right after Kaladin thinks about going to Shinovar for Dalinar, and the voice says to listen to the Bondsmith. We "know" that the CS of Tanavast merged with the Stormfather somehow, so I don't see how going to Shinovar would be "coming" to Tanavast.

My guess is it is either the Unmade that seems to have taken residence in Shinovar, or it's BAM. But right now, I feel like BAM is my answer for everything, so I suspect it is wrong.

Edited August 5, 2024 by listerfeend

BinarySecond · August 5, 2024

My assumption is the voice is feminine - He does check to make sure it's not Syl, and I don't think she sounds very much like Tanavast.

Diomedes · August 5, 2024

I was more reminded of how the Sibling contacted Navani at the beginning of RoW. And given Sanderson obsession with symmetries in his plots in SA, that would be an argument for the voice being some benevolent force be it Tanavast or someone else.

if you did not not notice, here are some symmetries in plot arcs:

OB and RoW both feature a roadtrip through Shadesmar with Adolin and Shallan

Kaladin visits Hearthstone in the beginning of both books.

In WoR Sadeas is the main villain, in RoW Rayse/Odium is the main villain. Both are assassinated in a shocking plot twist at the end of both books.

At the end of WoR Dalinar bonds the Stormfather, at the end of RoW Navani bonds the Sibling.

And now both RoW and KWT feature an unidentified voice popping up in a main char head at the beginning of the book.

I guess there are more, but those were the ones which came immediatly to mind for me.

@CtrlAltDepressed

I don`t think it is Cultivation. She would have different methods available to contact someone than randomly talking to them in their head. But it is still possible.

Edited August 5, 2024 by Diomedes

alder24 · August 5, 2024

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

Why does any of this conversation make you think the "voice" knows that Odium's Vessel has changed? Just curious, you seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on it knowing about TOdium, and nothing about the exchange seems to indicate knowledge, or the lack thereof, of T's Ascension.

It doesn't have to know it, but it certainly knows something is out of ordinary.

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

I think it's very interesting that the voice can seem to hear Kal's thoughts

Quote

So who was he? What was he?

You are… that same voice said softly. You are what I need…

So, what do we know about things being able to speak into minds? My brain isn't working very well today, but I think that Ruin could speak into the minds of people that had spikes, or were mentally unstable enough, but I don't think he could hear their thoughts? Would Tanavast's CS have that ability? Why would it have that ability? It's no longer got the juice of a Shard behind it.

Whoever was talking to Gavilar also couldn't seem to read his mind. This leads me further from Tanavast being the voice. Considering Stormfather has melded with Tanavast, and Stormfather can't read the mind of Gavilar, or Dalinar from what I can remember.... and the voice says "come to me" right after Kaladin thinks about going to Shinovar for Dalinar, and the voice says to listen to the Bondsmith. We "know" that the CS of Tanavast merged with the Stormfather somehow, so I don't see how going to Shinovar would be "coming" to Tanavast.

Yes, Ruin can only speak, Preservation can only listen, Harmony can do both. Autonomy can talk to those spiked with Trellium, but they can mostly speak to her Avatars, not her personally. Endowment talks to them after death (like Leras and Sazed, but that's after death, which is different). But for a Shard to talk to them a Connection is needed - Odium can do that in an Everstorm (just like the Stormfather), Cultivation can do that in the Valley. Once there is enough Connection, they can talk when they want - like Odium doesn't need an Everstorm anymore to talk to Dalinar, Vyre or Taravangian.

Tanavast? That's more complicated. We know Kelsier as CS was able to speak to those mentally unstable and even those who were spiked, just like Ruin - and that was before he became Preservation. Vin as Preservation was able to speak to Eland, just like Kel as Preservation could speak to Spook. Connection is needed, that's for sure. Kaladin has some special Connection with Tanavast and his soul is most definitely cracked because of his traumatic past and depression - one can speak to him from CR, like Kelsier did before Ascension, or like Kelsier as Preservation did to Spook if they have strong enough Connection.

But Tanavast's CS was supposed to be merged with the Stormfather, so he shouldn't be just wandering around CR, he should be the Stormfather. So that's very weird because that wasn't the Stormfather.

And there is this WoB, which said that we can assume there is no funny business going on with Tanavast, and that Tanavast is dead as of the start of WoK - he should be gone, he shouldn't be able to talk to Kaladin like this. On the other hand Brandon said he will definitely answer the question "is Honor dead" by the end of WoT. So Tanavast doing something like this is still on the table, but it would be weird for the Stormfather to be unaware of that.

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

Spoiler

CaptainObvious0927

The really question is, given the death of Rayse, is Honor really dead? Or is his essence out there, still available to be claimed?

Brandon Sanderson

I will answer this for certain by the end of Book Five. For now, RAFO.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

I can't really think of anyone else with a strong enough Connection to Kaladin to be able to talk to them like this. No Unmade was ever influential in his life - the same goes with any other Shard. It didn't sound like Tien and he's dead, which required special circumstances for them to "communicate." Syl was the only one I remember that kept asking him to try again back in WoK - but it wasn't her. The wind was always around Kaladin, always there helping him, giving him strength, protecting him - and winds are the domain of Honor, through association with the Stormfather. Tanavast still seems like the most likely candidate, even though there are some holes in this logic.

8 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

I was more reminded of how the Sibling contacted Navani at the beginning of RoW.

8 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

And now both RoW and KWT feature an unidentified voice popping up in a main char head.

The Sibling didn't pop up in Navani's mind, they talked through Dabbid who was using a Spanreed.

Edited August 5, 2024 by alder24

Diomedes · August 5, 2024

30 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The Sibling didn't pop up in Navani's mind, they talked through Dabbid who was using a Spanreed.

Yes you are right, Navani contacted Kaladin via the Sibling by "popping" into his head. The parallel stil stands of some unknown force contacting a main char through mysterious means at the beginning of both books at Urithiru.

Edited August 5, 2024 by Diomedes

Vin(Diesel) · August 5, 2024

Can Odium talk to just anyone, or does he require a connection? Yes, he invaded Kaladin’s mind before, but that was when Kaladin was in a very dark, perhaps-Odium-Connected place. This Wind and Truth chapter shows Kaladin in a very different state.

Obviously, Kaladin has Connection with Honor, but Tanavast is dead, and it doesn’t seem to be the Stormfather speaking. Maybe the Stormfather, though, isn’t really merged with the cognitive shadow of Tanavast. Maybe the Stormfather is being a Stormfaker throughout the Stormlight Archive! And Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow is elsewhere. Nah…. I don’t buy that all the Radiant Oaths have been accepted by an impostor.

Seriously, why would Kaladin perceive anyone’s voice as being from the winds other than Syl, the Stormfather, or Tanavast? Maybe another honorspren, though I don’t know why it wouldn’t just appear to him. Tanavast is confirmed by WOBs to be dead.

So I guess I’ve talked myself into thinking it might be a deception.

Also, why does the voice refer to “the Bondsmith” when there are two bondsmiths now? Is Kaladin right to assume that it means Dalinar?

alder24 · August 5, 2024

3 minutes ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Can Odium talk to just anyone, or does he require a connection? Yes, he invaded Kaladin’s mind before, but that was when Kaladin was in a very dark, perhaps-Odium-Connected place. This Wind and Truth chapter shows Kaladin in a very different state.

No, he needs a strong Connection. In RoW he used Moash's Connection to Kaladin to send him vision, but he didn't talk to him. I highly doubt this is Odium again. RoW I-4:

Quote

Vyre walked closer and knelt. “You can take me without a storm now, Lord?”
OUR CONNECTION GROWS STRONGER, Odium said. I HAVEN’T NEEDED A STORM TO BRING YOU INTO A VISION FOR MONTHS NOW, VYRE. I USUALLY DO IT FOR TRADITION’S SAKE
[...]
“Could you show him anything?”
I HAVEN’T THE CONNECTION TO HIM. Odium considered, humming softly to a rhythm. I SEE A WAY. THERE ARE HOLES IN HIS SOUL. SOMEONE COULD GET IN. SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HIM, SOMEONE CONNECTED TO HIM. SOMEONE WHO FEELS AS HE DOES.
“I will do it.”
PERHAPS. YOU COULD INFLUENCE HIM IN SMALL WAYS ONLY. PERHAPS EACH NIGHT, WHEN HE SLUMBERS … HE THINKS OF YOU STILL, AND THERE IS MORE. A CONNECTION BECAUSE OF YOUR PAST, YOUR SHARED DREAMS. ANY BOND SUCH AS THAT CAN BE MANIPULATED.

7 minutes ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Obviously, Kaladin has Connection with Honor, but Tanavast is dead, and it doesn’t seem to be the Stormfather speaking. Maybe the Stormfather, though, isn’t really merged with the cognitive shadow of Tanavast. Maybe the Stormfather is being a Stormfaker throughout the Stormlight Archive! And Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow is elsewhere. Nah…. I don’t buy that all the Radiant Oaths have been accepted by an impostor.

Seriously, why would Kaladin perceive anyone’s voice as being from the winds other than Syl, the Stormfather, or Tanavast? Maybe another honorspren, though I don’t know why it wouldn’t just appear to him. Tanavast is confirmed by WOBs to be dead.

Unless the winds on Roshar became sentient after Honor's death and they are separate from the Stormfather!

8 minutes ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Also, why does the voice refer to “the Bondsmith” when there are two bondsmiths now? Is Kaladin right to assume that it means Dalinar?

True, but Navani didn't talk to him a lot, Dalinar on the other hand already gave him commands.

Diomedes · August 5, 2024

10 minutes ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Tanavast is confirmed by WOBs to be dead.

There is an really old theory that there is something up with Rosharan afterlive. Theory: Roshar's Afterlife and the Tranquiline Halls

As this book will feature a trip to the spiritual realm, it would be fitting for someone dead to talk to Kaladin.

We already saw Evi forgiving Dalinar at the end of OB. And it was probably Tien himself who was present in Kaladin`s vision at the end of RoW.

Subvisual Haze · August 5, 2024

An Unmade seems unlikely. Urithiru in its restored functionality should keep unmade influence out.

I'm guessing the reason Kaladin can hear this voice now is due to Dalinar creating a connection between Kaladin and the warm place where he has visions (leading to Kal's vision with Tien). Just like Dalinar previously would hear whispers of "unite them" and have the occasional weird Nohadon vision apart from Stormfather, now a voice from the same place is reaching out to Kaladin.

"Bondsmith" might refer to Dalinar, but I think Ishar is also a strong possibility. The shadow/remnant of Honor maybe needs Ishar to do something.

BinarySecond · August 5, 2024

21 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

An Unmade seems unlikely. Urithiru in its restored functionality should keep unmade influence out.

I'm guessing the reason Kaladin can hear this voice now is due to Dalinar creating a connection between Kaladin and the warm place where he has visions (leading to Kal's vision with Tien). Just like Dalinar previously would hear whispers of "unite them" and have the occasional weird Nohadon vision apart from Stormfather, now a voice from the same place is reaching out to Kaladin.

"Bondsmith" might refer to Dalinar, but I think Ishar is also a strong possibility. The shadow/remnant of Honor maybe needs Ishar to do something.

That warm place is the spiritual realm surely - Tien was there - I think it's a point in favour of another Oathbringer with all the heroes ending up together in the same place at the end.

Lord Spirit · August 5, 2024

27 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

There is an really old theory that there is something up with Rosharan afterlive. Theory: Roshar's Afterlife and the Tranquiline Halls

As this book will feature a trip to the spiritual realm, it would be fitting for someone dead to talk to Kaladin.

We already saw Evi forgiving Dalinar at the end of OB. And it was probably Tien himself who was present in Kaladin`s vision at the end of RoW.

So this theory is saying that instead of going to the beyond, rosharians are sent to the spiritual realm?

That is actually really interesting. You also get another deceased voice with Teft in this chapter. Szeth is also haunted by “the voices” of people he’s killed. So maybe broken people can connect to all of these people in the spiritual realm.

The only issue I have with theory is that there have been millions of people on Roshar since the tranquiline halls were taken. That’s a lot of souls to just be sitting around for thousands of years.

Edited August 5, 2024 by Lord Spirit
Formatting

GudThymes · August 5, 2024

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

The only issue I have with theory is that there have been millions of people on Roshar since the tranquiline halls were taken. That’s a lot of souls to just be sitting around for thousands of years.

I love this idea, but who says that all people must be kept around. Not sure exactly how that might happen to hold people in the SR instead of letting them pass to the great beyond.

Could be that when Tanavast died he set up some bubble in the SR to capture specific people. If he was seeing the future then maybe he fished out people who died with strong Connections to our knights?

Diomedes · August 5, 2024

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

So this theory is saying that instead of going to the beyond, rosharians are sent to the spiritual realm?

That is actually really interesting. You also get another deceased voice with Teft in this chapter. Szeth is also haunted by “the voices” of people he’s killed. So maybe broken people can connect to all of these people in the spiritual realm.

The only issue I have with theory is that there have been millions of people on Roshar since the tranquiline halls were taken. That’s a lot of souls to just be sitting around for thousands of years.

Well, time does not exist in the spiritual realm, or is "irrelvant" to quote the coppermind wiki article. So all souls of all people, who have lived in the past, who live in the present or will live in the future are there.

Also from all worlds not just Roshar because space does also not exist in the spiritual realm.

But we don`t know of course how any of this works. I am very excited to find out in KoWT.

Edited August 5, 2024 by Diomedes

Geneio · August 5, 2024

What if instead of the voice being Tanavast or even being any creature we know, it's the voice of the Splintered Shard of Honor?

Since Honor was Splintered about 2000 years ago, might that not be enough time for that Investiture to become partially self aware?

We know that Kaladin has a very strong Intent of Honor (I in fact think he'll pick up the Shard of Honor at the climax of the book) so maybe the voice on the Wind is able to speak to him because he's highly Connected with the Shardic Intent!

I also think that the new Storm that the voice is talking about is going to be a Warlight Storm which will be the aftermath of the Highstorm and the Everstorm merging together (perhaps with Dalinar/Dalinar's Cognitive Shadow becoming the Spren of this new Storm)

Lord Spirit · August 6, 2024

1 hour ago, Geneio said:

What if instead of the voice being Tanavast or even being any creature we know, it's the voice of the Splintered Shard of Honor?

Since Honor was Splintered about 2000 years ago, might that not be enough time for that Investiture to become partially self aware?

We know that Kaladin has a very strong Intent of Honor (I in fact think he'll pick up the Shard of Honor at the climax of the book) so maybe the voice on the Wind is able to speak to him because he's highly Connected with the Shardic Intent!

I also think that the new Storm that the voice is talking about is going to be a Warlight Storm which will be the aftermath of the Highstorm and the Everstorm merging together (perhaps with Dalinar/Dalinar's Cognitive Shadow becoming the Spren of this new Storm)

That’s an interesting idea, but if the investiture gained sentience, then that doesn’t explain how weak it sounded. It would also make it tricky for Kaladin to ascend if the shard developed a personality.

The Stick · August 6, 2024

I am having trouble trying to to parse the little dialogue we have, but to me it all sounds like Sibling did post Unmaking steps. While I think Tanavast is a good possibility, I am trying to decide whether or not I think that some spiritual remnants of Jezrien could be trying to contact Kaladin. I would think not, because Sanderson seemed to make clear he was really really dead. Another thought could be that this is the sentence of Honorblades kicking in, but the only one that makes sense is Jeziren's, which is not in Shinovar. My last thought is that it could seriously be Yelig-Nar. He could have moved to Shinovar like the other Unmade. He is nicknamed Blightwind. And he consumed Amaram, which would give him feasible Connection to Kaladin.

However, I do believe that looking through the books will be able to reasonably answer who the voice is. Talking in the head is a bad cliche if written badly, so I have no doubt Sanderson has left breadcrumbs, and it is not something crazily out of left field.

bmcclure7 · August 6, 2024

11 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

So in chapter two, Kaladin hears “the wind” talking to him and asking for help. Who is it? My best guess is that it’s somehow Tanavast. This is mainly based on some similarities with how Harmony talked to Wax.

The stormfaker

Who’s talking to Kaladin? / Who is the Wind discussion

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