Coffeecat she/her Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 TUO WHYYYYY We could have had a fun time figuring out what Aet and Stick were, but you had to go and CC me. Are you sure you are not an Oracle and we somehow got swapped? Makes no sense because I swap people but whatever.
Aeternum Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 17 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: Option 1: Stick started out as Kelsier (Stick does not know the other evil roles) - If Stick believes she's been swapped, it's in her best interests to claim truthfully, as it is a loss for her and everybody else if the new Kelsier gets executed. *However, Stick is vocally disbelieving in Coffeecat's claim to have swapped her with Aeternum, so this world is a weird one. However, "weird" doesn't disqualify it from being what happened. - If Stick doesn't believe she's been swapped, it probably doesn't hurt that much to claim truthfully, as mindgames ensue about whether Stick is actually Kelsier or a Ministry member. *However, if Stick believes that other people can also figure out she wasn't swapped (which, she probably should believe that in this situation?), then pretending to believe she was swapped actually makes more sense, probably. Because then she can claim "ex" Ministry, and get executed when people figure out that Coffeecat is fake, and win. Option 2: Stick started out as Kandra (Stick knows who the ministry members are, but the ministry members don't know Stick -- also, Stick probably just knows which of TUO/Coffeecat is real, bc the liar is either Kelsier, Ministry Member #1, or Ministry Member #2, and Stick knows 2/3 of those) - If Stick swapped with Ministry!Aeternum, she would likely claim to be ex-Ministry, get Aeternum executed, and then Stick & Aeternum both win gg. - If Stick swapped with non-ministry!Aeternum, well. Either Aeternum was village, in which case Stick is now village and Aeternum is now Kandra, so flagging Aeternum as a jester is pro-village and helps her win condition. Or Aeternum was Kelsier, in which case Stick is now Kelsier, and claiming to have started as Kelsier makes us more likely to believe that she now has a different role, which helps her win condition. Either way, I kinda feel it makes sense? - If Stick doesn't believe she was swapped, see option 1 Option 3: Stick started out as Ministry (Stick and the other Ministry member know each other) - If Stick swapped with Ministry!Aeternum, then claiming Kelsier makes a lot of sense from Stick. *Then again, by the same measure, it makes less sense that Aeternum would claim to have started as Kelsier in this situation. The point of this is for the 2 ministry members to keep each other alive, and that doesn't work as well if they're both huskying it out over who's the real jester. It works much better if only 1 of them is Kelsier. - If Stick swapped with non-Ministry!Aeternum, then claiming to have started as Kelsier is somewhat confusing, because in a village!Aeternum world, Stick only needs to execute Aeternum to win. But well, Aeternum isn't exactly trustworthy. Maybe she assumes Aeternum is Kelsier/Kandra, and plays accordingly. This feels less intuitive to me, though. - If Stick doesn't believes she was swapped, then claiming to have started as Kelsier while shading the person who purportedly swapped her is honestly loltastic, and a viable Ministry strategy for IKYK reasons. I'm not sure if it's the sort of thing Stick would gravitate towards, though, because there are definitely safer options for Ministry!Stick in this scenario. Conclusions: I think what we're witnessing here is just the Kandra and Kelsier getting swapped EDIT: To be clear, I'm willing to be convinced that Coffeecat is the one who's lying and not TUO. But I think looking in <Coffee, TUO> is probably a better shout right now than looking in <Stick, Aeternum>. You're really gonna make me read that font I do agree not voting in me/Stick is smart. I did not reads anything else
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 (edited) 32 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: Conclusions: I think what we're witnessing here is just the Kandra and Kelsier getting swapped Poor RBM. I'm getting flashbacks to you being swapped already and having to wait for wiw to get online smh. Why'd you target me anyway? I feel less confident adjudicating between TUO and Coffee because I kind of think it's in both their play ranges and one or two of Coffee's posts just remind me of SK Coffee fakeclaiming. But I don’t feel strongly. Edited to add: If Stick and Aet are just a kandra-for-Kelsier swap potentially, then does that make TUO/Coffee just a highly suicidal Ministry member? Because ccing here is weird — getting a Villager off the exe list feels weird as a choice? I'm trying to understand this play as coming from non-Kelsier/non-Kandra players but it's weird. Edited July 6, 2024 by Kasimir
Aeoryi she/her Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 37 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: Option 1: Stick started out as Kelsier (Stick does not know the other evil roles) - If Stick believes she's been swapped, it's in her best interests to claim truthfully, as it is a loss for her and everybody else if the new Kelsier gets executed. *However, Stick is vocally disbelieving in Coffeecat's claim to have swapped her with Aeternum, so this world is a weird one. However, "weird" doesn't disqualify it from being what happened. - If Stick doesn't believe she's been swapped, it probably doesn't hurt that much to claim truthfully, as mindgames ensue about whether Stick is actually Kelsier or a Ministry member. *However, if Stick believes that other people can also figure out she wasn't swapped (which, she probably should believe that in this situation?), then pretending to believe she was swapped actually makes more sense, probably. Because then she can claim "ex" Ministry, and get executed when people figure out that Coffeecat is fake, and win. Option 2: Stick started out as Kandra (Stick knows who the ministry members are, but the ministry members don't know Stick -- also, Stick probably just knows which of TUO/Coffeecat is real, bc the liar is either Kelsier, Ministry Member #1, or Ministry Member #2, and Stick knows 2/3 of those) - If Stick swapped with Ministry!Aeternum, she would likely claim to be ex-Ministry, get Aeternum executed, and then Stick & Aeternum both win gg. - If Stick swapped with non-ministry!Aeternum, well. Either Aeternum was village, in which case Stick is now village and Aeternum is now Kandra, so flagging Aeternum as a jester is pro-village and helps her win condition. Or Aeternum was Kelsier, in which case Stick is now Kelsier, and claiming to have started as Kelsier makes us more likely to believe that she now has a different role, which helps her win condition. Either way, I kinda feel it makes sense? - If Stick doesn't believe she was swapped, see option 1 Option 3: Stick started out as Ministry (Stick and the other Ministry member know each other) - If Stick swapped with Ministry!Aeternum, then claiming Kelsier makes a lot of sense from Stick. *Then again, by the same measure, it makes less sense that Aeternum would claim to have started as Kelsier in this situation. The point of this is for the 2 ministry members to keep each other alive, and that doesn't work as well if they're both huskying it out over who's the real jester. It works much better if only 1 of them is Kelsier. - If Stick swapped with non-Ministry!Aeternum, then claiming to have started as Kelsier is somewhat confusing, because in a village!Aeternum world, Stick only needs to execute Aeternum to win. But well, Aeternum isn't exactly trustworthy. Maybe she assumes Aeternum is Kelsier/Kandra, and plays accordingly. This feels less intuitive to me, though. - If Stick doesn't believes she was swapped, then claiming to have started as Kelsier while shading the person who purportedly swapped her is honestly loltastic, and a viable Ministry strategy for IKYK reasons. I'm not sure if it's the sort of thing Stick would gravitate towards, though, because there are definitely safer options for Ministry!Stick in this scenario. Conclusions: I think what we're witnessing here is just the Kandra and Kelsier getting swapped EDIT: To be clear, I'm willing to be convinced that Coffeecat is the one who's lying and not TUO. But I think looking in <Coffee, TUO> is probably a better shout right now than looking in <Stick, Aeternum>. @Stick. behold the neil the eel
Aeternum Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 I would highly appreciate knowing my role i.e Stick actually claiming. Thx
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Kasimir said: Why'd you target me anyway? useful rules note #3 - Kasimir is a vanilla villager, even when he isn't 31 minutes ago, Kasimir said: If Stick and Aet are just a kandra-for-Kelsier swap potentially, then does that make TUO/Coffee just a highly suicidal Ministry member? Because ccing here is weird — getting a Villager off the exe list feels weird as a choice? I'm trying to understand this play as coming from non-Kelsier/non-Kandra players but it's weird. I mean, you have to claim something. The way I see it, you have a couple of options. Claim late, when everybody else has claimed, to make sure you get an NPC role with no counterclaims. You are automatically suspect unless you have some role interaction mechanically clearing you. Claim early, and try to guess an NPC role by sheer dumb luck. It'll be great if you guess correctly, but the odds are iffy. Claim early, and make peace with the fact that you're probably going to be in a claim-off with someone, since there's only 1 day to make it or break it. If so, you might as well be the counterclaim, right? As I'm talking through this, I feel I should note that Aeo isn't actually confirmed village, I was wrong about that. Aeo likely didn't claim early enough for the claim to really be clearing. Edited July 6, 2024 by DrakeMarshall font
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 3 hours ago, Coffeecat said: Honestly I was hoping stick and Aet would claim something, at which point I would reveal they were swapped, forcing more info for village. Still, would definitely urge those two to claim, considering they have been swapped they are claiming for the other person. Does this mean you felt Stick's entrance into the game wasn't very Village? (You implied as much when you made your claim.) Why so? 2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said: Useful rules note #2 - spiked are actually friends not food in this game Honestly it was the first time I was excited to see Spiked in my PM. In a manner of speaking. The first time was "ffs you mean I have to pick someone and pray they're not Evil or 3p?" "ffs Drakebro you had one job why'd you have to send me back to Spiking hell" "lol thanks Drake, im Village for real now " 2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said: I kinda think Coffeecat's claim feels legit. I kinda think it's more likely TUO is the flavor of evil we want to execute compared to say whatever Stick started out as, also nobody's claimed to have swapped TUO so at least that's not something to worry over, TUO Can you spell this out more? (Yeah sorry just got back on com.) 3 hours ago, Stick. said: So ig I’m still Kelsier LOL but can’t hurt to village-side now You lose if you Village-side so that makes no sense. 3 hours ago, Stick. said: it’s why I said I “randed” jester specifically You wouldn't know if you were swapped and your previous statement implies that you only just realised you might have been swapped so that doesn't really jive...
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 20 minutes ago, Aeoryi said: @Stick. behold the neil the eel I will make this post in comic sans as tribute to neil 2
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 2 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: useful rules note #3 - Kasimir is a vanilla villager, even when he isn't ? ngl i just asked because i sort of bet on your train of thought either in my GM PM or with Araris before the night ended and I kind of wanna see if I was right >:P
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 1 minute ago, Kasimir said: Can you spell this out more? (Yeah sorry just got back on com.) honestly I kinda think coffee not sharing swap results right away is kind of a good look? like it doesn't read as someone who's invested in getting believed, whereas TUO is all eager to share who they targeted, maybe I'm being cursed here but I feel like an evil fakeclaimer would be more of a tryhard about it also something just felt off about how TUO said "tentatively" voting for coffee, like I'm sorry what's there to be tentative about coffee just took your role, you've got to decide if it's ministry or jester but it's definitely evil, it feels like there should be more clarity there I dunno to be clear I'm really not entrenched on this, but like, I'm sold enough that it's my current vote 6 minutes ago, Kasimir said: ? ngl i just asked because i sort of bet on your train of thought either in my GM PM or with Araris before the night ended and I kind of wanna see if I was right >:P my train of thought was "bro wants to be a vanilla villager, let's make him a vanilla villager" sir the game started on a night turn there's not going to be a lot of deep reasons for these things, I spent like a minute on the decision tops
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 1 minute ago, DrakeMarshall said: also something just felt off about how TUO said "tentatively" voting for coffee, like I'm sorry what's there to be tentative about coffee just took your role, you've got to decide if it's ministry or jester but it's definitely evil, it feels like there should be more clarity there Fair. I trust you more on Lily reads tbh. Interesting Stick went the other way. TUO 2 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: my train of thought was "bro wants to be a vanilla villager, let's make him a vanilla villager" i am a god or rather: the space faeries told me
The Unknown Medallion he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 1 minute ago, DrakeMarshall said: like I'm sorry what's there to be tentative about coffee just took your role, you've got to decide if it's ministry or jester but it's definitely evil, it feels like there should be more clarity there So, uh, yeah, you answered your own question. Coffee is either someone we very much want to kill or someone we very much don't want to kill with no in between. How does that not make sense? As for me claiming quicker, this is a game where claiming is necessary. There's no reason not to share greater information. Not wanting to reveal is actively reaction and claim seeking to try to blend in on Coffee’s part. There's no reason for a v!Coffee to hold back there. It's antivillage.
Aeternum Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 Just now, The Unknown Order said: So, uh, yeah, you answered your own question. Coffee is either someone we very much want to kill or someone we very much don't want to kill with no in between. How does that not make sense? As for me claiming quicker, this is a game where claiming is necessary. There's no reason not to share greater information. Not wanting to reveal is actively reaction and claim seeking to try to blend in on Coffee’s part. There's no reason for a v!Coffee to hold back there. It's antivillage. Reaction test? I found that towny, personally. Says the 3p but yk
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 I really feel I should note that this is a halfbaked Lily read, I don't feel very sure about it Do you agree on Stick/Aeternum being more likely Kandra/Kelsier territory? Regardless, I don't rate Stick disagreeing about TUO/Coffee as very indicative, because like, Stick's probably not trying to help us
The Unknown Medallion he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 Just now, Aeternum said: Reaction test? I found that towny, personally. You know, "reaction test" isn't a Get Out of Jail Free card. Like, it has to actually serve a purpose or be able to identify something. (Partially looking at you Stick, but everyone does it and it's silly) 2 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: Lily Who is this Lily you two keep talking about?
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 2 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said: So, uh, yeah, you answered your own question. Coffee is either someone we very much want to kill or someone we very much don't want to kill with no in between. How does that not make sense? As for me claiming quicker, this is a game where claiming is necessary. There's no reason not to share greater information. Not wanting to reveal is actively reaction and claim seeking to try to blend in on Coffee’s part. There's no reason for a v!Coffee to hold back there. It's antivillage. see at the moment it kinda feels like you're more riled by me saying I don't believe you than you are at Coffee for claiming the same role as you allegedly have I'm running out of good fonts
Aeternum Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 Just now, The Unknown Order said: You know, "reaction test" isn't a Get Out of Jail Free card. Like, it has to actually serve a purpose or be able to identify something. (Partially looking at you Stick, but everyone does it and it's silly) Who is this Lily you two keep talking about? Coffeecat mentioned it was to see what the two people who swapped claimed to try to catch them in a lie I suppose. I'm honestly so not invested in the game. I had this whole plan to play straight into my wolfmeta and get killed, only to discover I may no longer be Kelsier. Drake, Kas, Lightringer Coffeecat Aeo, RBM (idk) TUO Stick, Aet (3p?)
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 2 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said: Who is this Lily you two keep talking about? Lily is largely apocryphal proverbial? both, really Lily is a person who likes fakeclaims a lot it's funny that Kas is implying I'm good at reading her because I actually have fallen for one of her fakeclaims before I've just gotten slightly wiser since then
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 2 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: I really feel I should note that this is a halfbaked Lily read, I don't feel very sure about it Fair. I think I just mention because my issue with Lily was not yours so I trust you to smell claim lies differently from how I'd approach it. 4 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: Regardless, I don't rate Stick disagreeing about TUO/Coffee as very indicative, because like, Stick's probably not trying to help us I actually find it more indicative Stick might not be Village, i.e. validating your Stick/Aet probably a Kandra/Kelsier swap theory. In that I don't find Stick's play here really all that consistent with how an actual starting Kelsier would play IMO. You can argue that Kelsier wants to not be too blatant, but I think Stick has the skill to finesse it and isn't. 1 minute ago, Aeternum said: I'm honestly so not invested in the game. I had this whole plan to play straight into my wolfmeta and get killed, only to discover I may no longer be Kelsier. ngl I caught a flu again and I'm still tired so I read this as "I may no longer be Kasimir," had a double-take, and realised I probably need more sleep
The Unknown Medallion he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 Just now, DrakeMarshall said: see at the moment it kinda feels like you're more riled by me saying I don't believe you than you are at Coffee for claiming the same role as you allegedly have I'm running out of good fonts You want a ladder to get out of your tunnel? Am I voting you? Is Coffee here actively posting and engaging rn? To be fair, I am a little bit annoyed that Kas was on the right track before going 'Drake knows best.' I'm not too worried about it though, I trust Kas to re-evaluate here. Just now, Aeternum said: Coffeecat mentioned it was to see what the two people who swapped claimed to try to catch them in a lie I suppose. There's no lie to catch. The swapped players don't learn they were swapped and I don't get to know either of their roles. My role is profoundly useless for everything except causing chaos.
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 3 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said: it's funny that Kas is implying I'm good at reading her because I actually have fallen for one of her fakeclaims before I've just gotten slightly wiser since then You did fall for the Merchant one but the one that stuck with me was your figuring out her vig claim was a lie. I'd've pushed her for separate reasons but not for the vig claim.
The Unknown Medallion he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 (edited) I find it kind of odd how you're defending Coffee so strongly here, why would either a villager or the neutral you claim to be be so invested why someone else held back information a bit longer than necessary? Edit: Referring to Aet Edited July 6, 2024 by The Unknown Order
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 @DrakeMarshall: 1 hour ago, Coffeecat said: Well there is absolutely no way people believe TUO is HT, over, goodbye. This was the moment that tonally reminded me of Coffee fakeclaiming against me. I don't really know how to describe it but it was like SK Coffee was absolutely incapable of letting the claim sit and had to keep pushing the fakeclaim. 4 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said: There's no lie to catch. The swapped players don't learn they were swapped and I don't get to know either of their roles. Dude has a point.
Aeternum Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 (edited) I'd like to take a minute to mention that I'm historically extremely bad with roles (I recently got townread for softing a PR because, and I quote, "makes awful mech posts (like about their own role) as town in every game they’ve had a pr") so me claiming Kelsier here should be like very Non gambit-y Very truthful-y LOL. Thanks for reading my self-meta paragraph. MOVING ON 8 minutes ago, Kasimir said: ngl I caught a flu again and I'm still tired so I read this as "I may no longer be Kasimir," had a double-take, and realised I probably need more sleep LOL you should probably get more sleep 5 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said: You want a ladder to get out of your tunnel? Am I voting you? Is Coffee here actively posting and engaging rn? To be fair, I am a little bit annoyed that Kas was on the right track before going 'Drake knows best.' I'm not too worried about it though, I trust Kas to re-evaluate here. There's no lie to catch. The swapped players don't learn they were swapped and I don't get to know either of their roles. My role is profoundly useless for everything except causing chaos. Mmm true. Well then why did you use your role smh. Edit: also how would a ladder get him out of a tunnel smh that doesn't make sense Edited July 6, 2024 by Aeternum
Kasimir he/him Posted July 6, 2024 Posted July 6, 2024 3 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said: I find it kind of odd how you're defending Coffee so strongly here, why would either a villager or the neutral you claim to be be so invested why someone else held back information a bit longer than necessary? From your POV, since Aet and Stick were not swapped, what are you theorising?
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