Spikes before linchpin and kandra question

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

@Trusk'our and all others more versed than me.  

If humans need a linchpin for 4 or more spikes how is tensoon holding it together?  

Are kandra able to withstand more spikes or do you suppose blessings count together and thus you could hold more blessings as a kandra before needing the linchpin?  

[Quantus he/him]

The short and unsatisfying answer is that the Inquisitors are a completely different race than humans, and so are Kandra, so they just have their own rules.  And iirc the Lord Ruler specifically built the linchpin flaw into them to make them easier to control/eliminate if they challenged him. But WOB does also say that there's some flexibility in how the linchpin can work and which metal it can be.  Steel is typical, WOB below makes it sounds like the a Healing spike could work too when available.  

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty

The Creation of New Inquisitors

It was very convenient for the system I built into Hemalurgy that the Inquisitors were designed and commanded to hunt down skaa Mistings. There were always enough of those that they could create new Inquisitors to replace the ones who eventually died of old age.

The Inquisitors were always so determined to catch the skaa. So passionate. With good reason, for that was the only means by which their race—and Inquisitors are a separate race, just like the koloss and the kandra—could perpetuate itself.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 19, 2009)

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

17th Shard

Very careful roleplayers have counted the numbers of Inquisitors appearing in the novels and they claim there must have been 25 if Vin and Elend killed two Inquisitors between Mistborn 2 and Mistborn 3. Could you clarify the numbers of Inquisitors there were? They've literally counted.

Brandon Sanderson

They literally, yeah…No, I mean, I've got it written down somewhere. I'm now so separated from this book. I had always imagined there being around three dozen Inquisitors at any given time.

17th Shard

Oh, okay, so quite a bit more than 20.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. Well the thing you've gotta remember is that, with the powers they're given, they're pretty much immune to disease and things like that, particularly after they've gained their healing spike.

17th Shard

Right. Is that common to all Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

It does not come to all. It comes to almost all. That's a pretty common one, but being an Inquisitor does not mean you get it. I think it mentions in the books that there's one spike that they all get, but I can't remember what it is.

17th Shard

I would imagine that would…well, okay, a steel spike so they could see.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. Yeah, obvious, but the thing is you've gotta have a Keeper to be able give a healing spike. The ones alive now pretty much all have healing spikes, but there were times throughout history when he needed a new Inquisitor and he didn't have a Keeper (a Feruchemist) handy. He could make an Inquisitor without that. That is not what's keeping them alive from the spikes being driven through their bodies.

17th Shard

So the linchpin spike is not always the same type of spike.

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't have to be. The linchpin spike is just, when you're putting that many spikes together into somebody it needs a spike to coordinate them all. That is part of what's holding their body together from all of this damage, and it doesn't have to be the healing spike. The nature of Feruchemy is separate from that, if that makes any sense. For instance, you could put a few spikes into an Inquisitor without a linchpin spike, and they wouldn't die.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

 

 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

If humans need a linchpin for 4 or more spikes

Humans need a linchpin for more than 4 spikes. Koloss also have four spikes (2 Blessings of Potency with 2 spikes per Blessing) and also do not use a linchpin. 

HoA Epigraph to Ch 40:

Spoiler

Originally, we assumed that a koloss was a combination of two people into one. That was wrong. Koloss are not the melding of two people, but five, as evidenced by the four spikes needed to make them. Not five bodies, of course, but five souls.

Each pair of spikes grants what the kandra would call the Blessing of Potency. However, each spike also distorts the koloss body a little more, making it increasingly inhuman. Such is the cost of Hemalurgy.

 

[Iron-Eyes he/him]

 I think it's only when you get a lot of spikes that you need a linchpin to hold them all together

Edited February 8 by Iron-Eyes

[Trusk'our he/him]

19 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

@Trusk'our and all others more versed than me.  

If humans need a linchpin for 4 or more spikes how is tensoon holding it together?  

Are kandra able to withstand more spikes or do you suppose blessings count together and thus you could hold more blessings as a kandra before needing the linchpin?  

Basically, as @Quantus said, Kandra are just a different species. The rules just don't seem to apply to them in the same way. Not exactly satisfying, but that's what we really have to go off of right now.

I will say though, Kanda have flexible Spiritwebs, as they are shapeshifters. It could be the reason they don't seem to need a Linchpin spike is because the spikes they have don't have the same need to coordinate due to the Kandra's Spiritweb being flexible. But that's just a guess.

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Humans need a linchpin for more than 4 spikes. Koloss also have four spikes (2 Blessings of Potency with 2 spikes per Blessing) and also do not use a linchpin. 

Are we sure that one of the Koloss's spikes doesn't count as a Linchpin spike?

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

The rules just don't seem to apply to them in the same way

What rules do you think do not apply to Kandra?

2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Are we sure that one of the Koloss's spikes doesn't count as a Linchpin spike?

Yes. Or as sure as we can be without a WoB. Koloss have 2 Blessings of Potency. Each Blessing is comprised of 2 Spikes (by definition). There would have to be a fifth Spike for there to be a Linchpin (since a Linchpin is described as a specific type of Spike* that doesn't grant it's own abiltiies, but coordinates other spikes). But, also note that the Hemalurgy Table specifically states:

Spoiler

Quote

"To avoid potentially deadly side effects"

Yes, I know it says "four or more" and that's where most get the phrase - but it's an in-world document, acknowledged to have errors and we have in-book examples showing that is an error (if you don't mind side effects). Also note, that while it says "steel" I bet it's more likely that the location is more important for a linchpin than the metal - based on HoA Ch 36 Epigraph:

Quote

For instance, steel spikes take physical Allomantic powers—the ability to burn pewter, tin, steel, or iron—and bestow them upon the person receiving the spike. Which of these four is granted, however, depends on where the spike is placed.

So, if a Steel spike changes what happens based on the bind point, then it' spossibel that that Bind Point is the "Linchpin".

 

[Quantus he/him]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

What rules do you think do not apply to Kandra?

Same as Koloss:  The one that says an Inquisitor needs a Linchpin spike to hold things together with 4 or more spikes.  Koloss have 4 spikes with no dedicated linchpin, and the Times a Kandra has had 4 did not seem to cause the fallout we're told would happen to an Inquisitor.

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Yes. Or as sure as we can be without a WoB. Koloss have 2 Blessings of Potency. Each Blessing is comprised of 2 Spikes (by definition). There would have to be a fifth Spike for there to be a Linchpin (since a Linchpin is described as a specific type of Spike* that doesn't grant it's own abiltiies, but coordinates other spikes). But, also note that the Hemalurgy Table specifically states:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, I know it says "four or more" and that's where most get the phrase - but it's an in-world document, acknowledged to have errors and we have in-book examples showing that is an error (if you don't mind side effects). Also note, that while it says "steel" I bet it's more likely that the location is more important for a linchpin than the metal - based on HoA Ch 36 Epigraph:

So, if a Steel spike changes what happens based on the bind point, then it' spossibel that that Bind Point is the "Linchpin".

 

That's how Inquisitors need to do it, but they have 4 random and UnConnected spikes.  Kandra and Koloss both use paired Blessing Spikes, which I suspect is why they dont have the same threshold for a Linchpin, especially since WOB describes it's function as "Coordinating" the other spikes.  So if Blessing Pairs are innately more coordinated, it's logically possible can implant up to 4 Pairs  before the same instability arises.

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Koloss have 2 Blessings of Potency. Each Blessing is comprised of 2 Spikes (by definition).

Untrue. Koloss spikes are NOT Blessings. Each Koloss spike is a separate spike, unpaired.

Spoiler

yulerule

Are Inquisitor spikes, kandra Blessings and koloss spikes interchangeable?  Like if you it spiked in a different way--

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitant* You could make that work and it wouldn't be that hard. But just as they are, no.

yulerule

Would nothing happen or would weird stuff happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Weird stuff would happen

*pause*

But that one's not very hard to make work.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

What's the difference between a spike prepared for a Koloss and a spike prepared for a Mistwraith or Kandra? What side effects might occur from... [?]... Koloss spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the pieces of the soul that are being ripped off and the amount of the soul that's being ripped off. That's a big part of it. What side effects would there be? You would probably not get something as intelligent.

Questioner

What's the difference in how you prepare those spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

The Koloss spikes, you've seen how they're done. The Kandra spikes were prepared by the Lord Ruler. He gave them to them, and so we don't know what he did, at least in canon.

Questioner 2

That means that we kind of screwed up the role playing.

Brandon Sanderson

You can totally do- I imagine all the role playing happening in a slightly different alternate universe, where there are slight variations and differences.

But yeah, there are no- Kandra spikes are prepared and given by the Lord Ruler, they didn't even know how to make them themselves. I mean they had an inkling of what went on, but they didn't know.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

Also note that the Hemalurgic table added to HoA is only concerned with creation of Steel Inquisitors, not any other Hemalurgic Constructs. Thus it's possible that different constructs would need a linchpin spike at different numbers of spikes, because their nature is different allowing them to take more/less spikes without any linchpin.

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Koloss spikes are NOT Blessings. Each Koloss spike is a separate spike, unpaired.

They are Blessings, similar to a Kandra Blessing but different:

HoA Epigraph (as quoted above):

18 hours ago, Treamayne said:

HoA Epigraph to Ch 40:

Quote

Originally, we assumed that a koloss was a combination of two people into one. That was wrong. Koloss are not the melding of two people, but five, as evidenced by the four spikes needed to make them. Not five bodies, of course, but five souls.

Each pair of spikes grants what the kandra would call the Blessing of Potency. However, each spike also distorts the koloss body a little more, making it increasingly inhuman. Such is the cost of Hemalurgy.

Also, Ch 36:

Quote

And so, a kandra granted the Blessing of Potency is actually acquiring a bit of innate strength similar to that of burning pewter.

So if a blessing is made from non-metalborn, and Potency is from stolen human Strength. Then Koloss would either be "double-strong doubled" or "three times normal strength"

Note also that Sazed describes the fundamental difference between a Koloss Blessing and  Kandra Blessing: Epigraph to Ch 41:

Quote

The spikes worn by the kandra cause only a small transformation in their hosts—leaving their bodies mostly like that of a mistwraith, but allowing their minds to begin working. Ironically, while the spikes dehumanize the koloss, they give a measure of humanity to the kandra.

 

 

Edited February 8 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

45 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

They are Blessings, similar to a Kandra Blessing but different:

HoA Epigraph (as quoted above):

The EFFECT of 2 Koloss spikes is SIMILAR to Kandra's Blessing, but they are not Blessings. 2 Koloss spikes grant more or less equal strength to 1 Blessing of Potency and that's because each Koloss spike contains the strength of one human. "Grants" and “what the Kandra would call”  in this quote are the key words.

Koloss spikes are just strength stolen from people, Kandra Blessings are something different, prepared by Rashek, keyed to their identity. Koloss spikes are not Blessings. 

45 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Note also that Sazed describes the fundamental difference between a Koloss Blessing and  Kandra Blessing: Epigraph to Ch 41:

Quote

The spikes worn by the kandra cause only a small transformation in their hosts—leaving their bodies mostly like that of a mistwraith, but allowing their minds to begin working. Ironically, while the spikes dehumanize the koloss, they give a measure of humanity to the kandra.

 

In this epigraph Sazed describes the effects of spikes in all known Hemalurgic Constructs, not the differences between Koloss and Kandra. 

Quote

Hemalurgic spikes change people physically, depending on which powers are granted, where the spike is placed, and how many spikes someone has. Inquisitors, for instance, are changed drastically from the humans they used to be. Their hearts are in different places from those of humans, and their brains rearrange to accommodate the lengths of metal jabbed through their eyes. Koloss are changed in even more drastic ways.

One might think that kandra are changed most of all. However, one must remember that new kandra are made from mistwraiths, and not humans. The spikes worn by the kandra cause only a small transformation in their hosts—leaving their bodies mostly like that of a mistwraith, but allowing their minds to begin working. Ironically, while the spikes dehumanize the koloss, they give a measure of humanity to the kandra.

 

Edited February 8 by alder24

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The EFFECT of 2 Koloss spikes is SIMILAR to Kandra's Blessing, but they are not Blessings. 2 Koloss spikes grant more or less equal strength to 1 Blessing of Potency and that's because each Koloss spike contains the strength of one human. "Grants" and “what the Kandra would call”  in this quote are the key words.

Koloss spikes are just strength stolen from people, Kandra Blessings are something different, prepared by Rashek, keyed to their identity. Koloss spikes are not Blessings. 

In this epigraph Sazed describes the effects of spikes in all known Hemalurgic Constructs, not the differences between Koloss and Kandra. 

 

This is how I read it. I always assumed that kandra blessings were in fact created differently than the typical spikes and it required 2 spikes created in a unique way to make a blessing.  Koloss spikes are just run of the mill murder hobo iron spike through the chest or whatever. 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Basically, as @Quantus said, Kandra are just a different species. The rules just don't seem to apply to them in the same way. Not exactly satisfying, but that's what we really have to go off of right now.

I will say though, Kanda have flexible Spiritwebs, as they are shapeshifters. It could be the reason they don't seem to need a Linchpin spike is because the spikes they have don't have the same need to coordinate due to the Kandra's Spiritweb being flexible. But that's just a guess.

Are we sure that one of the Koloss's spikes doesn't count as a Linchpin spike?

Part of me wondering if part of why Koloss are so extremely mutilated is because they lack a linchpin spike.  

Maybe it is just the nature of spikes that steel attributes as opposed to abilities. Abilities are more on the spiritual side and the spiritual self would adjust to being able to use them. Perhaps attributes like physical strength require more of a physical change to work. 

Of course Kandra can play more without showing it due to their innate physical nature. 

[Dofurion]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Koloss spikes are just strength stolen from people, Kandra Blessings are something different, prepared by Rashek, keyed to their identity. Koloss spikes are not Blessings. 

I have always speculated that the Kandra spikes are the same as the Koloss spikes (soul fragments removed through hemalurgy) but the difference would be in the "donor" of the attributes.
I think it is plausible that the Kandra spikes are the hemalurgic version of the unsealed metalminds, where the donor did not have or had his identity taken away from him.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Dofurion said:

I have always speculated that the Kandra spikes are the same as the Koloss spikes (soul fragments removed through hemalurgy) but the difference would be in the "donor" of the attributes.
I think it is plausible that the Kandra spikes are the hemalurgic version of the unsealed metalminds, where the donor did not have or had his identity taken away from him.

I think you're onto something. But they can't be unkeyed, they have to adapt and be keyed to the identity of a Mistwraith they were given to. Otherwise they would be interchangeable and one Kandra could wear spikes of another Kandra instead of his own. However this is not possible as ReLuur rejected TenSoon's spike. Wearing spikes of another Kandra can cause personality changes. They have to be keyed to the identity of Kandra somehow. BoM ch 3:

Quote

“TenSoon … relinquished one of his own spikes to give our fallen brother a few moments of lucidity. It was very painful for TenSoon, and—unfortunately —accomplished nothing. ReLuur only screamed, begging for his spike. He spat out TenSoon’s a moment later. Trying to use someone else’s spikes when you don’t have your own already can provoke radical changes in personality, memory, and temperament.”
“Lessie,” Wax said, voice hoarse. “She … she changed spikes frequently.”
“And each was a spike created specifically for her,” VenDell said. “Not one that had been used by another kandra."

 

[Treamayne]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think you're onto something. But they can't be unkeyed, they have to adapt and be keyed to the identity of a Mistwraith they were given to. Otherwise they would be interchangeable and one Kandra could wear spikes of another Kandra instead of his own. However this is not possible as ReLuur rejected TenSoon's spike. Wearing spikes of another Kandra can cause personality changes. They have to be keyed to the identity of Kandra somehow.

I thnk he was saying "no Identity from the Donor" not "No identity from the receiver." This is arguably supported by TenSoon wearing OreSeur's Blessing of Potency. But only in addition to his own Blessing of Presence (not instead of - like ReLuur). 

[alder24]

36 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I thnk he was saying "no Identity from the Donor" not "No identity from the receiver." This is arguably supported by TenSoon wearing OreSeur's Blessing of Potency. But only in addition to his own Blessing of Presence (not instead of - like ReLuur). 

Yes, I understood him correctly, I agree it's something about identity, but just no identity from the donor isn't enough because anyone would be able to use that spike - ReLuur wasn't able and it's generally dangerous to do that. Spikes have to be keyed to the identity of the receiver somehow and we don't know of any such mechanism. Identity of spikes remains the same and isn't overwritten by the identity of the receiver. No other spike works like this.

And while TenSoon was wearing OreSeur's spikes, he also was wearing his own spikes, keyed to him. That would help him because his identity was preserved and personality was maintained by his own spikes.

[Trusk'our he/him]

9 hours ago, Dofurion said:

I have always speculated that the Kandra spikes are the same as the Koloss spikes (soul fragments removed through hemalurgy) but the difference would be in the "donor" of the attributes.
I think it is plausible that the Kandra spikes are the hemalurgic version of the unsealed metalminds, where the donor did not have or had his identity taken away from him.

I think you may be onto something. I think that there's a little more going on as well, such as more Spiritweb chunks being taken by Kandra Blessings, but Identity has a key roll in their process I would suggest.

I think that the Donors may have their Identity Blanked (or removed via duralumin Hemalurgy) and then have a specialized command/knowledge used to steal the attributes to fill the Blessing. The Identityless spikes would adapt to the new Identity of the soul they were plugged into- that of the Mistwraith- as it seems even Unkeyed Metalminds like to develop something of an Identity over time.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90/#e4652

Questioner

What's the difference between a spike prepared for a Koloss and a spike prepared for a Mistwraith or Kandra? What side effects might occur from... [?]... Koloss spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the pieces of the soul that are being ripped off and the amount of the soul that's being ripped off. That's a big part of it. What side effects would there be? You would probably not get something as intelligent.

Questioner

What's the difference in how you prepare those spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

The Koloss spikes, you've seen how they're done. The Kandra spikes were prepared by the Lord Ruler. He gave them to them, and so we don't know what he did, at least in canon.

Questioner 2

That means that we kind of screwed up the role playing.

Brandon Sanderson

You can totally do- I imagine all the role playing happening in a slightly different alternate universe, where there are slight variations and differences.

But yeah, there are no- Kandra spikes are prepared and given by the Lord Ruler, they didn't even know how to make them themselves. I mean they had an inkling of what went on, but they didn't know.

Spoiler

Link

Raddatatta

In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff.

It also could be that instead of the spikes having a Blanked Identity that they cause the Mistwraith's natural Identity to warp to better fit the spikes, but with the knowledge we have on Hemalurgy right now that seems like a much less likely scenario, as it's pure conjecture whereas we have real proof for the spikes changing Identity.

[Dofurion]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Identity of spikes remains the same and isn't overwritten by the identity of the receiver

I slightly disagree; spikes seem to have the tendency to store the identity of their recipients as residue; if I'm not mistaken, it is in Handerwym's notes on the Koloss society in Arcanum Unlimited.

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

It also could be that instead of the spikes having a Blanked Identity that they cause the Mistwraith's natural Identity to warp to better fit the spikes

Precisely, I always thought that was the mechanism; the hemalurgic spikes without identity would serve as a kind of valve to release the repressed personality of the mistwraiths, precisely for the same reason they are so reticent to anyone touching them, whether it is unfounded or they cannot think that the spikes would become contaminated.

Quote

NinjaMeTimbers

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon Sanderson

This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

 

Edited February 9 by Dofurion

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

I slightly disagree; spikes seem to have the tendency to store the identity of their recipients as residue; if I'm not mistaken, it is in Handerwym's notes on the Koloss society in Arcanum Unlimited.

No information about this in Handerwym's notes, but I think you're referring to this, HoA ch 42 epigraph:

Quote

They then no longer required a fresh supply of spikes. I often wonder what effect the constant reuse of spikes had on their population. A spike can only hold so much of a Hemalurgic charge, so they could not create spikes that granted infinite strength, no matter how many people those spikes killed and drew power from. However, did the repeated reuse of spikes perhaps bring more humanity to the koloss they made?

Note that Harmony is only speculating here, he doesn't know this. Plus he calls this as "humanity" not identity - those things are different. One doesn't need Identity to have humanity.

13 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

Precisely, I always thought that was the mechanism; the hemalurgic spikes without identity would serve as a kind of valve to release the repressed personality of the mistwraiths, precisely for the same reason they are so reticent to anyone touching them, whether it is unfounded or they cannot think that the spikes would become contaminated.

I agree that they have to be unkeyed firstly, but that isn't a full picture, there must be something else that overwrites spike's identity with mistwraith's identity. Alternatively, like @Trusk'our said they may have an identity of their own, like medallions. But that would mean each Blessing would have to have a unique identity (just like medallions because they don't work together) and Paalm was able to make new spikes with the same identity. Weird but possible. 

[Duxredux he/him]

I think the simplest answer for why TenSoon can hold 4 spikes is the Blessing of Prescence reinforces him and reduces some of the negative effects of Hemalurgy. Or it could be that unlike Inquisitors and Koloss who lose humanity with each spike Kandra gain humanity. It would need a WoB though, since TenSoon is unique in this way as far as I know and we're extrapolating from very few data points.

@Quantus, you're right, I'm unsatisfied with the "different race/species" explanation since it's going to seriously complicate Hemalurgy when it comes to ShoDel, Singers, and animals.  Answering the question with "they're just a different species" totally can be the end answer, but then I was given that answer just this month for why Harmony could take control of Paalm despite the Trellium spike which allows more spikes before Harmony's interference in humans. Are Kandra weaker or stronger when it comes instability due to spike count?  I'm much happier with "Autonomy's Godmetal grants resistance to external control" or "cognitive stability mitigates negative effects to the soul" than "we need to make a new rule chart every time we run into a new race or species because the Spiritwebs are just different". I'm totally fine with the bindpoints generally being different per species, but I want the underlying theory to be trackable. For example, Kandra are special because unlike any other species we've seen they are born with a block on their Cognitive and Physical aspects and were specifically designed to gain sapience through Hemalurgy is a more thorough explanation from something like: "Dents the circus master finally had it figured out. It took four spikes to control a bear, three spikes to control a lion, and two spikes each for his gaggle of penguins. His amazing animal menagerie was ready to empty the pocketbooks of the Elendel elite and the constabulary Seekers would just assume he was Rioting the crowd to raise excitement. Dents would finally be able to pay off the medical bills he got after he placed that third spike in the bear."

If we got a paragraph like that in a book, I want some sort of theory of sapience, intelligence, or innate Investiture tying into what makes a species more or less susceptible to Hemalurgy's dangers created by punching Invested spikes into souls and creating potentially unstable transformations which seems like it should cause issues for just about anything in the Cosmere. Just saying that they are different doesn't really explain anything. I'm assuming that there's more universally applicable principles because Hemalurgy was always designed to be viable anywhere in the Cosmere, and I'm assuming that we won't have to learn new rules for every single different race of humans as I'm guessing Scadrian humans with their seed of Preservation have diverged from Nalthis, Taldain and Roshar.

 

Yeah... my take is that Kandra are unique because they were designed to be made more complete with Hemalurgy, but that otherwise you can pretty much assume that on average across the Cosmere 4 Hemalurgic spikes in a human will make them susceptible to the Flaw be it from a specialized emotion fabrial, Shardic influence, or a Rioter. The idea that Koloss don't have a linchpin and as a result are rather unstable works for me as well, as their transformations aren't very sustainable in the long term.

[LightRinger he/him]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:45 AM, Duxredux said:

"Dents the circus master finally had it figured out. It took four spikes to control a bear, three spikes to control a lion, and two spikes each for his gaggle of penguins. His amazing animal menagerie was ready to empty the pocketbooks of the Elendel elite and the constabulary Seekers would just assume he was Rioting the crowd to raise excitement. Dents would finally be able to pay off the medical bills he got after he placed that third spike in the bear."

I just want to praise you for being the post that I was looking for about penguins and Hemalurgy. I didn’t think my search would yield any results, but you’ve made my day. 

[Quantus he/him]

Can we circle back to this actually, I missed that detail: Was Dents Spiking more rioting ability into himself or Spiking the bear to make them more susceptible to what he already had, or Both? And if he was spiking the bear, what might the have the spikes been Charged with?