Quick Fix Game 70: Infernal Affairs

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, neil the beguiled said:

im ngl I don’t believe half the words I’m even saying at this point bc I forgot. Idk man you didn’t rlly go down the method that I thought u would which is kind of like. Lol. But does that mean I am thinking too much about that and am as a result narrow minded, or is your lack of assumed reaction AI and deserving of a push? I’m not like. Okay how do I. I cannot read, like at any given point and a result of my tunnel vision is that I’ve overlooked any of your other reads or inputs into the game (or dismissed  them).
and huff! I used to be a goalie, and the first rule of being a goalie is be unpredictable. So :P.

I admit I'm probably still a bit salty over being somehow not obv V last game but I'll get over it eventually I also admit and here I'll be a bit sorry — for deliberately picking the obtuse and combative answer just to see what happened, especially if it really threw you.

Well, what you make of it is up to you, it's not really my problem. I do stand by the Drake read for now and am still reconsidering the Archer impulse. I still don't really have a you read but I think that's fine with me for now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I did have some notion I wanted to see if I could get anything out of throwing you but nope, drawing a blank on this one.

Edited to add: Something I found interesting. The claim came from Royal, not Raven.

[Faerie Braids she/her]

34 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

anyways with the revised rules for side b

Wait, where can I find the revised rules?

Otherwise, my current thoughts are that Kas not caring to appear village is respectable and neil mentioning that the contact does not want to be easily read is a good point. I hope to have more thoughts in the morning. Also, while I am pretty sure the elims might not try spinning the game on its head again, I will be better prepared for it...hopefully. Also, also, I will poke Aeoryi. No RP this time, because it is late and I have schoolwork.

[Stick. she/her]

neil why do you keep saying you 'werent able to read kas correctly last game' when you were an elim last game & pushing kas as scummy so does that not mean you actually v read him last game or wat...

[JNV]

So hi there um Im tryig to think of how much the new rules change the strategies and stuff as far as I can tell its just sort of equalized the contact insider pop hunt and the informant cant pull a Stick and zugzwang the Octets

Just now, Faerie Braids said:

Wait, where can I find the revised rules?

 

Quote

• Informant will not have access to Octet Kill. Other Octet members will have to vote to kill someone in their GM PM. 
• Insider no longer knows the identity of the Contact.

Anyway Ill keep thinking about this I guess its like one am I should be asleep night night

[neil the beguiled]

the editor just bugged on me hell on earth. Anyways I looked at the last page on accident apparently you made a read on someone in an edit and that’s why I didn’t see it. And mmm tbh you just didn’t towntell quickly ig? After a bit it picked up but your initial tone from what I remember was rme and >.>.  
iiiiii would say that I would rather you make a read on me even if it’s not one you feel great about because I like to use peoples reads on me as a way to find *them* aye?

[Archer he/him]

bee stick

stick got their pleasantries out of the way in the elim doc and jumped right into it without even saying hello 

JNV and Faire are their teammates because y'all posting at the same time

 

Thanks for the explanation, evil drake 

[Stick. she/her]

wow you caught me

[neil the beguiled]

5 minutes ago, Stick. said:

neil why do you keep saying you 'werent able to read kas correctly last game' when you were an elim last game & pushing kas as scummy so does that not mean you actually v read him last game or wat...

I was lost wolf and I play lost wolf like a villager because I think my reads are below rand

 

anywyas what’s with the vote on faerie don’t you love v-reading that stuff?

edit: it’s late. RBM not faeries 

Edited February 14 by neil the beguiled

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

7 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I also imagined Illwei Illweing again with regard to yOu sAiD yoU doN't CaRe AbOuT beInG voTeD sO WHy aRE yOu rEspoNDing BS argument from the start of AG10 so I further added in points to block that sidetrack since I then expected Neil to go there.

I mean, I probably could argue that, tbh

Minimally, across the games I've seen there are a lot of dubious D1 takes and votes people have that you don't kick up nearly as much of a fuss over, and statistically I'd say there's a higher incidence of you taking exception to philosophies that happen to have D1 Kas voting as their current endpoint. That is my assessment.

but, idk

so what??????

all this means is that you aren't a robot

and just because someone is biased doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong, anyways

so at the end of the day, why would this really count against you

16 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

This IMO directly implies you think I think that there's no point putting effort in. So I was clarifying what I mean and specifically I'm a cynic (neilhilist?) about putting that in for specific players but not so much in general.

well, it's what I said a little further down, about how there's generally not much use in doing it for individual people

at least not insofar as the goal is to influence the vote productively, because that's based on the aggregate views of a lot of people, that's like the whole point of voting

but anyways I suppose my point with effort and it being a two-way thing is, if you can't communicate with someone, the question to ask is probably 'is it or isn't it worth trying to change that' rather than 'which one of us isn't trying hard enough'

so if neil says 'you aren't trying hard enough' and you say 'am too' well sure we could delve into that but deciding whether or not this is even a problem that needs solving is probably more productive

which maybe we are on the same page about, it sounds like we may be

[neil the beguiled]

ok fine archer is a villager

edit: I’m going to extract my toes and turn them into a syrup for my morning waffles. Drake. Is . Billager.

Edited February 14 by neil the beguiled

[Stick. she/her]

Just now, neil the beguiled said:

I was lost wolf and I play lost wolf like a villager because I think my reads are below rand

 

anywyas what’s with the vote on faerie don’t you love v-reading that stuff?

wow no wonder i always v read you when youre lost wolf

help it's not on faerie 

[neil the beguiled]

Just now, Stick. said:

wow no wonder i always v read you when youre lost wolf

help it's not on faerie 

you had tmi last time tho >.> also. See edits

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

11 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I also admit and here I'll be a bit sorry — for deliberately picking the obtuse and combative answer just to see what happened, especially if it really threw you.

I mean I think we're all being a bit deliberately obtuse and combative NGL

free not E/E reads all around

[neil the beguiled]

Just now, DrakeMarshall said:

I mean I think we're all being a bit deliberately obtuse and combative NGL

free not E/E reads all around

not me though I’d do this as a wolf with w!kas

edit: I don’t know that I actually would

Edited February 14 by neil the beguiled

[Stick. she/her]

1 minute ago, neil the beguiled said:

you had tmi last time tho >.> also. See edits

Hm? No I didn’t have tmi on who the insider was, I only knew who the regular elims were 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

7 minutes ago, Archer said:

Thanks for the explanation, evil drake 

any time, glad to be of service

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, neil the beguiled said:

iiiiii would say that I would rather you make a read on me even if it’s not one you feel great about because I like to use peoples reads on me as a way to find *them* aye?

I feel I'm a bit salty from last game and incapable of being objective here, is the issue. I'm aware I get that way about some players at times and it can literally just be anything, e.g. MR67 (your first game) where I just sat on E!Wiz for most of the cycle until Aman talked me off near the end because I could not get over his vote on Archer, who I felt was objective V!readable. I believe I'll get there in time, or not, then it can be someone else's problem.

@Stick. Where are you on Neil rn sis?

In general, thoughts in my head I suppose (this isn't really a read but consider it a read substitute I suppose)
-Genuine or opportunistic?
-Like early go-getter and potential read reluctance (cf. Stick on Aeo though! -Insider and E different profiles) 
-Considering whether tunnelling or going for easy prey/park
-Kind of feels genuine though?

9 minutes ago, neil the beguiled said:

After a bit it picked up but your initial tone from what I remember was rme and >.>.  

Rme?

9 minutes ago, neil the beguiled said:

And mmm tbh you just didn’t towntell quickly ig?

I think the main reason I'm thrown here is maybe the tell you have in mind isn't the one I have in mind. I'm notorious for a lack of WiM when E - I think TKN alluded to as much in MR67. I can fake it for the short term but the stamina isn't there, and it shows in terms of how much I can/don't get lured into solving. On a purely OOG (out of game) level, it's obviously something I'm trying to learn to mask but I haven't yet managed to do so. If I'm the Insider, then all bets are off, I think.

I'm aware of the usual #selfmeta caveats, so just take it for whatever it is. But given it was backed up by someone else in one of my V games, probably at least somewhat valid.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

6 minutes ago, neil the beguiled said:

edit: I’m going to extract my toes and turn them into a syrup for my morning waffles. Drake. Is . Billager.

close but I'm actually a Pillager

I am here to steal everyone's cheese

give it to me and nobody needs to get hurt

5 minutes ago, neil the beguiled said:

not me though I’d do this as a wolf with w!kas

edit: I don’t know that I actually would

edited to cut down on blatant elim TMI

[Stick. she/her]

4 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

@Stick. Where are you on Neil rn sis?

it's acting more villagery than last time but ill have a read i actually believe in tomorrow probably 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

my puppy senses tell me that Archer smells Evil

[Kasimir he/him]

9 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Minimally, across the games I've seen there are a lot of dubious D1 takes and votes people have that you don't kick up nearly as much of a fuss over, and statistically I'd say there's a higher incidence of you taking exception to philosophies that happen to have D1 Kas voting as their current endpoint. That is my assessment.

I don't think that's a disagreement with what I'm saying - I'm saying that saying I don't care about whether I get voted out doesn't mean I don't care about the argument. Illwei thought my arguing meant I cared about the vote - I didn't. I cared about the grounds for the vote because I thought it was bad. (And I disliked the fact it ignored I had, at that point, actually contributed to the game, albeit in a format of pure suffering, whereas others hadn't.)

Whether or not I have a higher tendency to do that for votes that target me doesn't change the fact that my issue is with the reasons rather than the outcome. It just means that you can't assert I attack all bad arguments, just some - but that still boils down to taking exception to the argument rather than the outcome.

14 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

but anyways I suppose my point with effort and it being a two-way thing is, if you can't communicate with someone, the question to ask is probably 'is it or isn't it worth trying to change that' rather than 'which one of us isn't trying hard enough'

That's kind of my point too, which I still feel you are missing, though maybe the thread will yell at us for carrying on with this.

I feel that asking whether it's worth it doesn't abrogate the question of whether the player is putting in - at minimum - basic expected effort. (Even if this doesn't matter to you as a criterion, it matters to me, since I blew up at the Village last round for it, and this directly led to my opting out of playing seriously in LG95 after the cremshow that was LG94.)

So my point isn't about who is trying hard enough - it's just that "I am asserting I have fulfilled the basic duty at present, therefore I can really just ask if it is worth trying to change that." I do think it is materially relevant to ask if you are or are not at least fulfilling the basic expected effort threshold - that's the entire point of the playstyle rule still requiring you to be prosocial.

Edited to add:

Putting it another way I suppose - it's one thing to do nothing productive in an entire game and then be belligerent when asked to be at least readable. It's another thing entirely to have done the basic but also to refuse to go above and beyond it. Minimally I'd argue the first case is much closer to being beyond the pale because it completely neglects the social element and sort of goes into "then why are you even signing up?" territory.

JNV's post is sticking out to me and I'm not sure why. It's a lot more participatory/'I'm here' than V!JNV usually cares for, but at the same time, I often expect E!JNV to be more performative. Probably a wee bit wary I  guess.

[neil the beguiled]

22 minutes ago, Stick. said:

Hm? No I didn’t have tmi on who the insider was, I only knew who the regular elims were 

er yeah but you knew everybody *but* you drank and aman were in the e doc so its still a pseudo tmi

19 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

close but I'm actually a Pillager

I am here to steal everyone's cheese

give it to me and nobody needs to get hurt

edited to cut down on blatant elim TMI

get him I love my havarti and will kill for it

##vote draje 

true I dont want to spew to everybody that my elim team is kas Kas and a third Kas with a mustkashe 

 

14 minutes ago, Stick. said:

it's acting more villagery than last time but ill have a read i actually believe in tomorrow probably 

pocket bus

12 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

my puppy senses tell me that Archer smells Evil

okay puppy can you fetch the reasons why you think that?

 

@ Kas I was gonna quote ur post but I didn’t want to but also it’s less the confidence I’m looking at (though that helps too) and more the why I guess. Something I noticed from you in the ag was a deliberation between differences, given that you’ve just seen my evil but not informed gameplay, what’s your take on my gameplay this game and what’s different about it? Ie in AG you ascribed a v!lean after I had a stark reaction difference to a fake claim in opposition to MR67 and so on. But also teehee silly eel go brrrrr.

 

er and also on towntells I mean. Yeah I dont know your e!gameplay which means at base I am going to overestimate it before I see it? And so me jumping the gun to it is more like : Oh I found e!kas yayayayayyayayayayayayay the mafia the mafia rather than me going “wow Kas looks easy to push today let’s have kas-kebabs on the elim menu tonight. Yaknow?
 

aeoryi back to this then bc i wanna let u cook and also idk if ill be on around eod 2day and wanna make a lolvote

 

edit: rme = randed mafia energy

Edited February 14 by neil the beguiled

[Kasimir he/him]

7 minutes ago, neil the beguiled said:

Something I noticed from you in the ag was a deliberation between differences, given that you’ve just seen my evil but not informed gameplay, what’s your take on my gameplay this game and what’s different about it?

Half the issue with the past game as comparison is I didn't explicitly E!read you, but I didn't V!read you either (these being strictly on the basis of play), and had a lingering theory due to a link analysis chart I did up that one of you or Faerie was Evil based on a sense that Alv might be the Contact and bluffing - that was why I explicitly asked you, and you caught that I had, framing my question on your thoughts on Alv in light of your saying Alv was not E/E with you. I thought you were trying to signal to the Elims.

I don't feel there is a strong difference at this point except potentially you being less willing to stick the contact, for want of a better phrase.

Edited to add: Tempted to conclude from Stick's increased reticence that she isn't in a doc this time...  Though I kind of feel like E!Stick could just decide to be less helpful and jebiga it.

Edited February 14 by Kasimir

[Stick. she/her]

9 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

 Tempted to conclude from Stick's increased reticence that she isn't in a doc this time...  

That...sounds backwards  

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Stick. said:

That...sounds backwards  

It does, doesn't it?

But your performance from the last game, and as Informant, which IMO is like double the work since you have two headspaces to juggle, seems to me to be potentially indicative that you don't suffer the amount of lag/drop-off that Drake and Aman did, given all three of you were bickering in a...33-page doc.

So let's bracket that as a tell when it comes to you.

The other thing that stood out to me was that you were a lot faster to give reads last game, which was one reason I would've gone V!you over Drake, even had Drake chosen to push the point. I did wonder if they came too fast, but bracketed that as I figured given you, I could maybe see some read volume being reasonable. 

I'm considering the extent to which the doc influenced your willingness to do so - it's still a form of TMI, however imperfect. My current inclination is it probably did so.

Would also like to know why Neil thinks you'd be all over Royal - I seem to remember you keep saying you despise purity reads.