CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 Hello all, **SPOILERS FOR ALL THINGS COSMERE** It is probably not news to most of you that the true nature and history of Ado is unknown. My friend and I have been having a continuous argument about this and I was hoping to get some new perspectives / insights. The argument primarily revolves around the central question: is Ado REALLY God God? When I say 'God God' I mean the end all be all, the creator of everything, the root of the entire universe. There is nothing 'bigger', there is nothing more powerful, there was nothing else before. This is the traditional Christian interpretation of God. Hereafter I will be referring to this concept as capitol G God as opposed to the shards as lower g god. This whole thing is very confusing as the only information contradicts itself. For example, we have people on Roshar and Taldain that tell us that Adonalsium created all things. Then we have forums / wobs that state that Adonalsium created the cosmere, with the cosmere being only ONE galaxy in a presumably infinite universe. From the very limited information we actually get in the text, this is how Ado is referenced. However, we all know that narrators in cosmere books can be unreliable. Since it is written as an in world text, people in the books can state something as fact without it actually being factual. We also have 'testimony' from an aetherbound that they are independent of Ado, and argue that together (all 12 aethers) they are equal in power to Ado. If this is the case, then obviously Ado is not God. Still incredibly powerful, but not 'the' creator. Again, this narrator could be flat out wrong. For me, it feels cosmere breaking for Ado to have an equal. Ado is the beginning, middle and end of this story and it feels cheap / diminishing that there would be other forces that surpass or are equal to Ado. The shards carry such weight / authority because it has been implied that they are God split into 16 pieces. That is infinitely more cool, interesting, and terrifying than being pieces of one of many gods (ado's throughout the universe). The shards are still extremely powerful either way, but the gravity of the shattering feels completely undermined if Ado is only the god of this singular galaxy. In addition, outside of the cosmere, I don't see Brandon incorporating beings above Ado given that he won't be done with the current story until after 2060. Ado not being God feels like the scene in men in black where they find out their universe is only a locker in a huge alien hub, but in a bad way (i like the scene in the movie). Or for another parallel, its like Dragon Ball Z where every arc is about getting more power that wasn't known about before. It works for that story, but it diminishes the work / pain that went into the earlier arcs. The only theory I can come up with that makes this all work together is that Ado is God. He created the entire universe, not just the cosmere. After creating everything, he seperated himself into his distinct parts. These parts were Ado (personality / Intent / spiritual), Dawnshards (Command / Action / cognitive), and Aethers (body, Investiture, physical). This would make Ado both God and not God. The aethers would be correct in saying they are equal to Adonalsium as we understand him (just the shards / intents) without being correct that they are on the level as God (Ado + Dawnshards + Aethers) or predate him. Let me know your alls thoughts / any sources you have for this that may help shed some light. I know the true answer is unknown, but want to gauge the communities feelings on this to see if I am an outlier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 15 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: The argument primarily revolves around the central question: is Ado REALLY God God? When I say 'God God' I mean the end all be all, the creator of everything, the root of the entire universe. There is nothing 'bigger', there is nothing more powerful, there was nothing else before. This is the traditional Christian interpretation of God. Hereafter I will be referring to this concept as capitol G God as opposed to the shards as lower g god. He was killed, wasn't he? That's not really qualifying him for the status of the capital G God. But we don't know and we will never know if there is the God in Cosmere. Some argue there is God Beyond, others think it's Adonalsium, others claim there is no God in Cosmere. But we the readers will never know the truth. Spoiler Questioner In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers. Questioner <Do you know the answer>? Brandon Sanderson I know the answer, yes. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) Spoiler Questioner After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else. Brandon Sanderson So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those. Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense. This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross. So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) About Adonalsium being the creator of everything, Some claim he did that, others say he created only Cosmere - the star cluster of around 100 stars - but there are Aethers who claimed to predate Adonalsium. So again, who is right? We don't know. But if Aethers are truly equal to Adonalsium, independent from his power and co-date him, then can Adonalsium really be named the God? TLM ch 42: Quote “Both less and more than a god,” he explained. “Silajana is one of the primal aethers. They predate Adonalsium, you know, and exist outside of his power.” Spoiler Questioner Was Adonalsium the one who created the cosmere universe as a whole? Brandon Sanderson That is widely assumed to be the case. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Spoiler Bumtown1 Is Adonalsium a unique being or are—were—there others? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! The aethers would say that there were lots. That there's like a bunch of aethers and Adonalsium. That they were co-equals. The aethers would say there were lots of them. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler Pagerunner If a well-studied singer were to become an aetherbound, how would they (with their innate understanding of tones) evaluate the core aethers' claim to be independent of Adonalsium and the Shards? Brandon Sanderson They would not have enough experience with the cosmere in general to be able to say yes or no. How about this. If they went to all the different tones and compared them, they would find something different happening with the aethers, I think is what the question is getting at. So there is some evidence cosmereologically for the aethers' claims to be independent of Adonalsium. There are also evidences that arcanists could put forward that say otherwise. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler Questioner Is there a center to the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson There isn't a center in the cosmere... I keep calling it a dwarf galaxy but I think they decided it's a cluster, instead of a dwarf galaxy. Overlord Jebus Even a dwarf galaxy is still really big. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, still too big. So we had to call it a cluster. Because we only wanted like what, we came up with 50 or 100 stars? So it's a cluster. Or a really dwarf galaxy. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) 28 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: For me, it feels cosmere breaking for Ado to have an equal. Ado is the beginning, middle and end of this story and it feels cheap / diminishing that there would be other forces that surpass or are equal to Ado. The shards carry such weight / authority because it has been implied that they are God split into 16 pieces. That is infinitely more cool, interesting, and terrifying than being pieces of one of many gods (ado's throughout the universe). The shards are still extremely powerful either way, but the gravity of the shattering feels completely undermined if Ado is only the god of this singular galaxy. That's only if you treat Adonalsium as a god at all, not as a natural phenomena happening in Cosmere. Investiture is energy in the same way that matter is energy - you don't call the Sun a god, so maybe Adonalsium was never a god to begin with, just a bunch of Investiture that came alive and started to create things. But that's a more scientific approach, maybe there is God Beyond, who is the capital G God. But then there are other religions in the world in which gods can be killed. I simply want to point out that this is a fantasy story in a fantasy world, it can be inspired by non-Abrahamic religions and it doesn't have to represent the real world, real religions and real God. Adonalsium can be a god and he can have beings equal to him like Aethers and this doesn't diminish the main story or the gravity of the Shattering. Not every story needs a capital G God in it. 42 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Ado not being God feels like the scene in men in black where they find out their universe is only a locker in a huge alien hub, but in a bad way (i like the scene in the movie). Or for another parallel, its like Dragon Ball Z where every arc is about getting more power that wasn't known about before. It works for that story, but it diminishes the work / pain that went into the earlier arcs. The only theory I can come up with that makes this all work together is that Ado is God. He created the entire universe, not just the cosmere. After creating everything, he seperated himself into his distinct parts. These parts were Ado (personality / Intent / spiritual), Dawnshards (Command / Action / cognitive), and Aethers (body, Investiture, physical). This would make Ado both God and not God. The aethers would be correct in saying they are equal to Adonalsium as we understand him (just the shards / intents) without being correct that they are on the level as God (Ado + Dawnshards + Aethers) or predate him. Let me know your alls thoughts / any sources you have for this that may help shed some light. I know the true answer is unknown, but want to gauge the communities feelings on this to see if I am an outlier. Then it's not Adonalsium who you should treat as the God, but the God Beyond who is like Abrahamic God. He is the ultimate Creator of everything and Adonalsium is simply below him, like Angels are below God - or Jesus, because just like Him Adonalsium was killed and just like Him Adonalsium might return. Brandon knows if there is a capital G God in Cosmere so there is an answer to this question, but we will never know this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's only if you treat Adonalsium as a god at all, not as a natural phenomena happening in Cosmere. Investiture is energy in the same way that matter is energy - you don't call the Sun a god, so maybe Adonalsium was never a god to begin with, just a bunch of Investiture that came alive and started to create things. But that's a more scientific approach, maybe there is God Beyond, who is the capital G God. I like this idea because we know that when enough Investiture comes together, it gains sentience, which could reasonably be applied to Adonalsium. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 9 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said: I like this idea because we know that when enough Investiture comes together, it gains sentience, which could reasonably be applied to Adonalsium. True, if Adonalsium were not ALL of Investiture in the Cosmere. Aether beliefs notwithstanding, WOB says it's all Adonalsium, and with it being an equal 3rd to Matter and Energy that doesnt leave a lot of wriggle room for them to BE the Cosmere itself (whether they created it or were Created AS it, Chicken vs Egg style). But there's also a concept of theological Urge vs Demiurge that WOB says matches pretty well (See Below). Spoiler Quote Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Quote Billy Todd How closely does Adonalsium map to the gnostic demiurge? Brandon Sanderson A little bit. Billy Todd So, not completely? I'm not completely off? Brandon Sanderson That's not off at all. Billy Todd So, not the urge, but the demiurge. Brandon Sanderson Oh, well I'll have to go read to make sure what I'm talking about then. Your answer is: I will go read and make sure I know. I thought I knew what I was talking about. Billy Todd So, there's the creator, which is the urge, which is the creator of the Universe. *large hand gesture* The demiurge is actually God. The demiurge is the one that creates [its] universe, *small hand gesture inside larger gesture* and entities living within the universe need knowledge of that which is beyond what the demiurge has created. Brandon Sanderson Okay, that matches pretty well. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 6 minutes ago, Quantus said: True, if Adonalsium were not ALL of Investiture in the Cosmere. Aether beliefs notwithstanding, WOB says it's all Adonalsium, and with it being an equal 3rd to Matter and Energy that doesnt leave a lot of wriggle room for them to BE the Cosmere itself (whether they created it or were Created AS it, Chicken vs Egg style). The Cosmere as the star cluster named Cosmere? If Adonalsium was just investiture existing in the star cluster that gained sentience, then Adonalsium can be all investiture in Cosmere, with Aethers and Dawnshards originating outside of Cosmere, or maybe they were just small chunks of investiture within Cosmere that gained sentience in the same time as Adonalsium did. And the first WoB is incomplete, we clearly know not all investiture in Cosmere was assigned to 16 Shards - Aethers and Dawnshards weren't a part of it. The follow-up WoB: Spoiler ChromatiCaos You said that all Investiture got assigned to a Shard when Adonalsium got Shattered, which Investiture do the Dawnshards draw from? What about the aethers? Brandon Sanderson Dawnshards and aethers both predate the Shattering, and the rules don't apply to them. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duxredux Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) Yeah, I type slow. I started this back before anyone else had responded. By all means carry on the posts after my mini-essay. One thing that's important to understand, at least as I consider it when reading the WoBs and listening to him talk on podcasts and streams is that there are certain lines that Brandon will not cross when creating the Cosmere, and one of them is he doesn't want to make an in-world confirmed "true" religion because that undermines every other character's belief system. Because of that, on a "how the sausage is made" basis, this topic can and will be discussed in-world but won't have an answer as to the actual nature of deity or lack thereof in the Cosmere. Everything we see in the Cosmere can be explained via Realmatic theory. This complicates these topics. I've never taken a formalized class on the different form of worship or world religions but there's a lot of reasons for why someone may worship something. It can be respect, obedience, or deference, respecting a deific creator in the same way that a child respects a parent. If can be a form of appeasement and seeking favor of a being that is viewed as having great power, an example of this being a humorous Latin quote from Plautus, "enim vero di nos quasi pilas homines habent", with a modernized translation "Ah yes, the gods use us mortals as footballs!". A quick look into the stories surrounding the Greek and Roman gods can explain this sentiment. Worship can be emulation and self-modification, hoping to gain the same characteristics as the target of worship. It can be about alignment or harmonizing oneself with the deity, a concept I think is found in the Shinto belief, but don't quote me on that (the concept of paying respect to nature spirits, or kami which often is translated to god or gods). There's probably plenty of other forms of worship that aren't immediately coming to mind. The concept of deity(s) and how one approaches deity if they so choose is complicated and can be deeply personal. Where things get tricky is that there is a cultural image of deity that we as readers associate with the concept of god. In America at least, a very common illustration of god in various iterations in media is probably an echo of Zeus, bearded man wearing a toga, sits on a cloud, and strikes people down with lightning. For me at least, if feels as if there is a slight anachronism with Jasnah's atheism because some of the concepts that she considers and uses to reject The Almighty and the Shards as deities seem to be based on echoes of Earth's religious cultural, not Roshar's. That's more of a personal feeling and it's not like I've written down specifics, but there are little moments where it feels like Brandon steps away from the culture as has been created in the Cosmere and tries to be representative of the people within his reader base and earth. There isn't anything wrong with that and is one of the reasons he's loved as an author, but the sacrifice is that some of these grittier details can feel choppy. The choice to remove a definitive religion by nature will have the cost that concepts of universal creation, afterlife (The Beyond), and absolute moral law will be incomplete and fuzzy at the details so as to not give too much weight to any single religion. Another way of putting it is that some of the evidences that I use to develop my belief system are absent from the Cosmere, and that's just fine but is a byproduct of avoiding a definitive answer within the Cosmere. To answer OP's question in the end, my take is that there isn't a definitive answer and unlikely to be one, and evidences that would try to support a definitive answer will probably have cracks at the edges when examined too closely. In many ways the Cosmere is an exploration of what would happen if you were to give the powers of creation and divinity to ordinary people and an exploration of the ramifications of such a scenario rather than treatise on Brandon's view on religion masquerading as a collection of fantasy books. Nothing wrong with The Chronicles of Narnia, particularly if you know what you're picking up, but just sayin'. My assumption is that Brandon main intent is to not alienate anyone in his reader base, for example handing a book he wrote to Chaos that is unintentionally narratively super derogatory towards atheists. Brandon has noted that one of the reasons he's had major problems with the Rithmatist sequel is that it had major issues with how it portrayed Native American culture and he thus far hasn't been able to figure out how to address it. Basically, the goal is to be inclusive, representative, and inoffensive at the same time as writing awesome fantasy books. Edited January 17 by Duxredux 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 17 Author Report Share Posted January 17 35 minutes ago, alder24 said: He was killed, wasn't he? That's not really qualifying him for the status of the capital G God. But we don't know and we will never know if there is the God in Cosmere. Some argue there is God Beyond, others think it's Adonalsium, others claim there is no God in Cosmere. But we the readers will never know the truth. Depends on your definition of killed. I would say that Kelsier was killed, and yet, he is still alive. I would say that Honor (shard not vessel) was killed and yet we have WOB's that reforming Honor is possible. So is Kelsier dead or alive? Is he neither? If Ado can be reformed, I wouldn't say he is dead - just temporarily separated. Just as a parallel - Christians say that Jesus is God, and yet Jesus is killed. That does not mean that God is not God or that God was killed. I am not saying it has to be like the Christian religion, just using that to show my thinking. 39 minutes ago, alder24 said: I simply want to point out that this is a fantasy story in a fantasy world, it can be inspired by non-Abrahamic religions and it doesn't have to represent the real world, real religions and real God. Adonalsium can be a god and he can have beings equal to him like Aethers and this doesn't diminish the main story or the gravity of the Shattering. Not every story needs a capital G God in it. I agree, and would much prefer that this story not be inspired by any existing religion. I was simply using Abrahamic religion to explain what I meant by God. There are many scenarios where Ado is comparable to abrahamic God without the cosmere needing to be a parallel to our own universe or religions or anything like that. 54 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's only if you treat Adonalsium as a god at all, not as a natural phenomena happening in Cosmere. Investiture is energy in the same way that matter is energy - you don't call the Sun a god, so maybe Adonalsium was never a god to begin with, just a bunch of Investiture that came alive and started to create things. But that's a more scientific approach, maybe there is God Beyond, who is the capital G God. I take issue with this for two major reasons. Firstly, the Intents of the shards are personality traits, and not forces of nature. Secondly, we see genuine forces of nature in the cosmere that are not anywhere close to what a shard is. Forces such as gravity, adhesion, evaporation, friction, etc, are not anything like a shard. They are like forces in our universe - just forces. No sentience, physicality, Intent, or investiture. I admit that is subject to change but i feel that is very very unlikely. The shards represent the personality traits of a person. I use person here to refer to any self aware being (dragons would be people, spren would be people (ish), etc). As far as your Sun metaphor, we see in the cosmere these things are distinct. The shards and a sun are completely different entities, in literally every way. Just like gravity or friction, the Sun does not have a personality, sentience at all, or Connections the way shards do. In addition we see that suns invested by shards act differently than regular suns (Canticle, Taldain). 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Then it's not Adonalsium who you should treat as the God, but the God Beyond who is like Abrahamic God. He is the ultimate Creator of everything and Adonalsium is simply below him, like Angels are below God - or Jesus, because just like Him Adonalsium was killed and just like Him Adonalsium might return. Brandon knows if there is a capital G God in Cosmere so there is an answer to this question, but we will never know this. There doesnt even need to be a God Beyond. I just want some definitive power scaling I think. What I mean by that is if Adonalsium is comparable to an angel in terms of status, why do we only care about one angel? What about the others? It doesn't make sense to me that Brandon would have created all of these details (because he knows the answer) and then just focus on piece. Why make there be all these different Ado like beings if we are only looking at one? Why increase the scope just to do nothing with it? This feels to me like if JK Rowling told us that there was actually a dark lord much more powerful than voldemort, but you arent ever going to hear about him or see anything related to him. ok.....whyd you make the story about voldemort and harry? why was voldemort and harry shown as the highest stakes? If its never going to be discussed or used for the story, why does it exist? 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Brandon Sanderson So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those. Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense. This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross. So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon. See this answer is frustrating because his answer to my question above is that he doesnt want anyone to be definitively wrong. But we have seen in several books that people are straight up wrong. For instance in Stormlight, the ardents refuse to acknowledge / accept that Honor is dead - even though we know that to be true. 2 minutes ago, Duxredux said: In many ways the Cosmere is an exploration of what would happen if you were to give the powers of creation and divinity to ordinary people and an exploration of the ramifications of such a scenario rather than treatise on Brandon's view on religion masquerading as a collection of fantasy books. If Ado is not God, how are the shards the powers of creation and divinity? I dont need it to be representative of Brandos or any existing beliefs. But he has told us there IS a definitive truth, but we wont know it. He couldve easily said, there is no answer. But he told us there is an answer but wont give it. That means that a lot of the characters (probably all) ARE wrong, but he doesnt want to hurt any feelings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaidakar the Ghostblood Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 11 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If Ado is not God, how are the shards the powers of creation and divinity? I dont need it to be representative of Brandos or any existing beliefs. But he has told us there IS a definitive truth, but we wont know it. He couldve easily said, there is no answer. But he told us there is an answer but wont give it. That means that a lot of the characters (probably all) ARE wrong, but he doesnt want to hurt any feelings. On my view of the Cosmere and capital G God, I think there are at least one or two that are right. For one thing, Dalinar. For another, Syl. Me, being me, believe that there is God in the Cosmere. This is basically from my heart, from my feelings when I've read the stories, when I say this, but I do think that God exists in the books and has influenced some events. Namely in regards to Dalinar, which is part of the reason why he's one of my faves. Not because he might be considered as representative of some form of christianity in the stories, far from it. It's because the way Dalinar talks about God, the way, at least that I have seen, God has been involved in his struggles and in his triumphs. Dalinar talks about a light sometimes. Just the way he talks about it... It's similar to how I've felt, it's similar to how my (and consequently Brandon's) church talks about feeling the spirit and receiving revelation. Now, I don't know if that is Adonalsium or the God Beyond or some other being, but what I do know for a surety is that if Brandon is doing something in similitude to (at least from my perspective) the real God, then it is not Hoid. I think that Adonalsium could possibly be similar to Jesus, in respects to that he was killed even though he was God. Perhaps he's risen again as the God Beyond, but that matters little to me lol. I doubt Brandon would ever make that canon, especially with how he's talked about there being no definitive answer that he will give. just want to say again, this isn't based off of any complex reasoning. This is just what I've felt when I've read the books and how I've thought about specific things. Feel free to disagree 100%. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
listerfeend Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I take issue with this for two major reasons. Firstly, the Intents of the shards are personality traits, and not forces of nature. Secondly, we see genuine forces of nature in the cosmere that are not anywhere close to what a shard is. Forces such as gravity, adhesion, evaporation, friction, etc, are not anything like a shard. They are like forces in our universe - just forces. No sentience, physicality, Intent, or investiture. I admit that is subject to change but i feel that is very very unlikely. The shards represent the personality traits of a person. I use person here to refer to any self aware being (dragons would be people, spren would be people (ish), etc) This is directly contradicted by WoB. Quote Pawell2812 Cultivation, Ruin, and Preservation seem like aspects of Adonalsium's cosmic nature rather than personality traits like other Shards. Is there a fourth Shard that is cosmic in nature? Brandon Sanderson I think they all are cosmic in nature. Even Honor, like you could say that's a personality trait, I don't think it is, I think it's a cosmic sense of justice and order, if that makes sense. We're phrasing it as a personality trait but that's not really what it is. There are those who would argue that the Shard of Honor is what makes things fall to the ground when you drop them and obey natural laws. Ben Epic Assuming the Dawnshards each represent four Shards, and considering their Intents seem to be similar, are Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all from the same category? Are they all Change Shards? Brandon Sanderson Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm going to RAFO that for now. By this we can tell that all Shards DO represent cosmic forces and natural laws. Ruin isn't just "a God's desire to destroy" it's the source, if you will, of entropy throughout the Universe. (I'm STILL not clear on if the Cosmere is a "cluster" sized universe, or simply a "cluster" within a larger universe, and WoB's don't really clear that up for me haha) 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: See this answer is frustrating because his answer to my question above is that he doesnt want anyone to be definitively wrong. But we have seen in several books that people are straight up wrong. For instance in Stormlight, the ardents refuse to acknowledge / accept that Honor is dead - even though we know that to be true. Except, a couple of points before that, you just said that if Honor can be reformed, it's not really dead, right? And they can be right and wrong on both accounts. WE know that Honor isn't God, because we know about Ado. But they don't know about Ado, so Honor is God to them. Tanavast is dead, that's true, but part of him lives on in the Stormfather, and the Shard of Honor can presumably be remade, so, is God the Shard, or the Vessel. Was Ado a Shard or a Vessel? We don't have that answer, and we won't until Dragonsteel is over, more than likely. Brandon doesn't want to answer the question of "Was Ado God, or was Ado god" for pretty understandable reasons. As stated, he wants to be able to have Dalinar and Jasnah both exist in the same story, and not have the audience going "tee hee Jasnah is so dumb, how can you be an atheist when Ado was so obviously God of Everything". This doesn't mean we aren't going to get explanations about the claims of the Aether, for example. Just that he isn't going to canonize whether or not there is a God Beyond, if Ado was the end all be all, what happens when you die, etc... Personally, I have BIG faith that, whatever Brandon writes, it's going to be satisfying, and probably leave me wanting more. And that will be true up until there are no more cosmere books and beyond. So far, he and his team have been very successful in making all of this work in satisfying ways. The ONLY things I've been dissatisfied by have been WoB's that seem to contradict themselves, or the texts. And those are only dissatisfying until he has time to fully flesh out the ideas and get them into the books. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 17 Author Report Share Posted January 17 43 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said: It's because the way Dalinar talks about God, the way, at least that I have seen, God has been involved in his struggles and in his triumphs. Dalinar talks about a light sometimes. Just the way he talks about it... It's similar to how I've felt, it's similar to how my (and consequently Brandon's) church talks about feeling the spirit and receiving revelation 55 minutes ago, Duxredux said: That's more of a personal feeling and it's not like I've written down specifics, but there are little moments where it feels like Brandon steps away from the culture as has been created in the Cosmere and tries to be representative of the people within his reader base and earth. There isn't anything wrong with that and is one of the reasons he's loved as an author, but the sacrifice is that some of these grittier details can feel choppy. The choice to remove a definitive religion by nature will have the cost that concepts of universal creation, afterlife (The Beyond), and absolute moral law will be incomplete and fuzzy at the details so as to not give too much weight to any single religion. Thank you all for your comments. Its been hard for me to nail down specifically what has bothered me so much about this and your words have helped a lot. When I first read Mistborn I had no idea there were shards or ado or who hoid was or anything like that. When I finished era 1, and learned about Pres / Ruin my mind was blown because we got little details throughout the books that showed they were there and in the end we get a ton of details about how they work and their history. The moment of learning that Ado was God and Ado was killed and split into 16 pieces was incredible because that's not a story I had ever heard before. I grew up Catholic, and to Catholicism God could never die. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent and that's not something that can die, right? So for Brandon to write a story where a God like that dies was inherently so fascinating to me. We get so many juicy details on all the magic systems and other 'technical' details and I just didn't expect the line to be drawn here, I think. Its completely fair and his reasoning is good but it will always be frustrating to me that this answer is ambiguous. It makes me think that we wont get answers to other huge questions like where the Dawnshards came from, where the aethers came from, or get many details about the shattering as I feel that would need to discuss Ado's nature at least to some degree. Im sure he can write it where that doesnt come up, like hoid is young and doesnt really care or understand whats really going on or something like that but we get so many details about magic systems and shard interactions and such that I guess I always expected to get the same details about the shattering, ado, dawnshards, and aethers eventually. I know that I will love whatever we are given so I just need to put this frustration away. 5 minutes ago, listerfeend said: Quote Pawell2812 Cultivation, Ruin, and Preservation seem like aspects of Adonalsium's cosmic nature rather than personality traits like other Shards. Is there a fourth Shard that is cosmic in nature? Brandon Sanderson I think they all are cosmic in nature. Even Honor, like you could say that's a personality trait, I don't think it is, I think it's a cosmic sense of justice and order, if that makes sense. We're phrasing it as a personality trait but that's not really what it is. There are those who would argue that the Shard of Honor is what makes things fall to the ground when you drop them and obey natural laws. Ben Epic Assuming the Dawnshards each represent four Shards, and considering their Intents seem to be similar, are Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all from the same category? Are they all Change Shards? Brandon Sanderson Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm going to RAFO that for now. By this we can tell that all Shards DO represent cosmic forces and natural laws. Ruin isn't just "a God's desire to destroy" it's the source, if you will, of entropy throughout the Universe. (I'm STILL not clear on if the Cosmere is a "cluster" sized universe, or simply a "cluster" within a larger universe, and WoB's don't really clear that up for me haha) I had not seen this before, and honestly raises more questions to be honest. It is said the dawnshards were used to create everything. If 'everything' is the cosmere and the cosmere is all there is, then he mustve created the dawnshards, right? or the universe is bigger than the cosmere and they are external, but Ado used them to make roshar / cosmere. If 'everything' is the rosharan system then ado used the dawnshards to make that system, but not the rest of the cosmere? The part about cluster sized universe or cluster in larger universe - AGREED. I still do not know. That alone would clear a lot of this up, I think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 (edited) 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Depends on your definition of killed. I would say that Kelsier was killed, and yet, he is still alive. Depends on your definition of "being alive" 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I would say that Honor (shard not vessel) was killed and yet we have WOB's that reforming Honor is possible. Splintered, not killed - power can't be killed, energy can't be destroyed. The Vessel is dead however. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If Ado can be reformed, I wouldn't say he is dead - just temporarily separated. But can the person that Adonalsium was be restored or would it be just combining all the 16 powers back together? We actually don't know if Adonalsium can be restored at all or if putting all 16 Shards together will bring back the same force/entity that Adonalsium was or create something entirely new and unique. Spoiler Questioner Can it be restored? The Splinters... Brandon Sanderson Um, Splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the Vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new Vessel would have to take it. Questioner Ok so, [Adonalsium] can be put back together? Brandon Sanderson Adonalsium? It is theoretically possible to put a Shard back into, you know, to meld Shards together. The fact that we have already seen someone meld powers, in Sazed. So yes, but the question is who or what was Adonalsium, and is putting it back together going to do anything? Or... Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Just as a parallel - Christians say that Jesus is God, and yet Jesus is killed. Well, Jesus is the Son of God, part of the Holy Trinity - one God in three persons. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I am not saying it has to be like the Christian religion, just using that to show my thinking. I didn't respond to you to force my opinion on you, just to ask you questions that you should ask yourself. I provided you with various possibilities and it's for you to decide what works for you the best. As you and I both know, the definition of the God, especially in the fantasy world, is fully subjective. You decide what works for you, and if for you Adonalsium is the God then it's decided. But keep in mind others might have different opinion and claim that for example the God Beyond is the God. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I take issue with this for two major reasons. Firstly, the Intents of the shards are personality traits, and not forces of nature. They aren't just personalities, they are pieces of the power of creation. They represent fundamental concepts and ideas of Cosmere - like entropy, stasis or change. Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. [...] Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Pawell2812 Cultivation, Ruin, and Preservation seem like aspects of Adonalsium's cosmic nature rather than personality traits like other Shards. Is there a fourth Shard that is cosmic in nature? Brandon Sanderson I think they all are cosmic in nature. Even Honor, like you could say that's a personality trait, I don't think it is, I think it's a cosmic sense of justice and order, if that makes sense. We're phrasing it as a personality trait but that's not really what it is. There are those who would argue that the Shard of Honor is what makes things fall to the ground when you drop them and obey natural laws. Ben Epic Assuming the Dawnshards each represent four Shards, and considering their Intents seem to be similar, are Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all from the same category? Are they all Change Shards? Brandon Sanderson Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm going to RAFO that for now. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler Questioner Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? ...Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature. Brandon Sanderson So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium. So I view this for all of them. Like, Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by. And there's this sense that that is noble, that's the honor aspect to it, but there's also something not honorable about Honor if taken from the other direction. So a lot of them do kind of have this both-- cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural. And not all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way. So I find Honor very interesting, but I find Autonomy a very interesting one for the exact same reason. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? And this is where you end up with things like Odium claiming "I am all emotion." Rather than-- But then there's a charged term for it that is associated with this Shard. I'm not going to tell you whether he's right or not, but he has an argument. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Secondly, we see genuine forces of nature in the cosmere that are not anywhere close to what a shard is. Forces such as gravity, adhesion, evaporation, friction, etc, are not anything like a shard. Those aren't Shards. Gravity doesn't belong to Honor. Gravity is a fundamental force that people can access through the filter of Honor and Cultivation, or some other Shard elsewhere. Honor is about bonds, Ruin is about entropy, Preservation is about stasis - there is no fundamental force of stasis, this concept is greater than fundamental forces. Spoiler Questioner It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere. Brandon Sanderson Depends on your definition of god. Questioner Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin Brandon Sanderson So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book. Questioner I was wondering how much- Brandon Sanderson But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place. [...] Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: They are like forces in our universe - just forces. No sentience, physicality, Intent, or investiture. Exactly. And those 4 fundamental forces in our universe eventually created a sentient life. In the same way, fundamental forces in Cosmere allowed for investiture to gain sentience and be Adonalsium. At least in this particular theory. A Shard left without any Vessel can gain sentience on its own, so why not Adonalsium? 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: As far as your Sun metaphor, we see in the cosmere these things are distinct. The shards and a sun are completely different entities, in literally every way. Obviously because in our universe there is no investiture. In Cosmere investiture is energy and it can gain sentience on its own if left alone long enough. Stars are just a bunch of matter and energy bound gravitationally, being one of the biggest and most energetic objects in the universe. Adonalsium and Shards are just a collection of investiture in the same way stars are made out of matter. By the laws of Cosmere, this kind of thing can just develop a mind. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: In addition we see that suns invested by shards act differently than regular suns (Canticle, Taldain). That's why I specifically compared the sun from our Earthly universe to Cosmere Adonalsium. Not Cosmere stars. Just to say that natural laws allow stars to exist without them being gods, in the same way Shards/Adonalsium can exist without them being gods. And once again I want to highlight that it is just one option of many and everyone can choose what works for them. I don't even argue in support of one specific idea, I argue for all of them just to encourage discussion and so you can make your own decision based on wider argumentation. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: There doesnt even need to be a God Beyond. I just want some definitive power scaling I think. Then a definitive power scaling doesn't have to include the God, just the most powerful beings on the top who happened to be Adonalsium, who happened to be killed but doesn't need to be the God but is a god. If that's all you need. It's a fantasy world, it doesn't have to have the God that is just like the Abrahamic God. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: What I mean by that is if Adonalsium is comparable to an angel in terms of status, why do we only care about one angel? That was just a poor methaphor, Jesus is a better one. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Why make there be all these different Ado like beings if we are only looking at one? Because the story is focused on that one? Or maybe there is nothing beyond Cosmere in terms of beings like Adonalsium? Maybe there is no investiture beyond Cosmere at all? 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: Why increase the scope just to do nothing with it? This feels to me like if JK Rowling told us that there was actually a dark lord much more powerful than voldemort, but you arent ever going to hear about him or see anything related to him. ok.....whyd you make the story about voldemort and harry? why was voldemort and harry shown as the highest stakes? If its never going to be discussed or used for the story, why does it exist? I don't really understand what you mean and what you're searching for right now. The God Beyond is becoming a more and more important piece of Cosmere. Dalinar is now worshiping him, we don't know what his role will be in the future, but Dalinar just came up with his name out of nowhere, we can expect more people to believe in him across Cosmere in the future, we can expect him to be a more important figure in the future. He doesn't have to play a vital role in the story, he doesn't have to smack people in the face, he can be just an important figure in religion, giving people hope and guidance in times of trouble - just like God here. Or just like God here he can throw a lightning or cure a disease once in a while. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: See this answer is frustrating because his answer to my question above is that he doesnt want anyone to be definitively wrong. But we have seen in several books that people are straight up wrong. For instance in Stormlight, the ardents refuse to acknowledge / accept that Honor is dead - even though we know that to be true. Not just wrong, wrong in terms of religion and religious beliefs. Honor isn't dead as long as he lives in the hearts of man! Honor isn't dead, he is Splintered - the power can't be killed. Is Honor real - yes. Is Trell real - yes. Is Adonalsium real - yes. Everyone who believes in them is justified. They all can be called gods. And if Brandon suddenly announces if there is or isn't the God in Cosmere, that kind of ruins the story for people like Dalianar, Jasnah or Sazed, for whom this question is an essential part of them. Preservation was basically dead and yet he put plans in motion and people were justified in believing in him. Honor might be dead but we don't know if there aren't any plans prepared by him before his death. Accepting that Honor is dead doesn't mean that Honor isn't/wasn't their god. That's their journey to make. And you said it yourself "If Ado can be reformed, I wouldn't say he is dead - just temporarily separated." So by your own words, ardents aren't wrong. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: If Ado is not God, how are the shards the powers of creation and divinity? He can be the power of creation because he created Cosmere, but isn't powers of divinity (and I don't think it was claimed that he is powers of divinity whatever that means). Just like Ruin is the power of entropy, which is one power of creation, Adonalsium is all powers combined, including entropy. And it can be that because of perception Adonalsium became the embodiment of the powers of creation, rather than the powers of creation were made from Adonalsium - just like spren are embodiment of emotions and forces of nature, but those things exists even without them - perception shaped them that way. 2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: But he has told us there IS a definitive truth, but we wont know it. He couldve easily said, there is no answer. But he told us there is an answer but wont give it. It can also mean that he knows the answer, which is there is no answer. Again, I didn't write this to force my opinion on you, not even to share my opinion, but to provide different points of view, even contradictory to each other. When we discuss the notion of the capital G God in Cosmere it's really hard to separate our personal beliefs from the topic, because we tend to search for and thus defend our personal beliefs. There is no answer to this question and I personally think that's fine. God can mean different things to different people, even in our world. I can see why people want to worship Heralds, Aethers, Shards, Ado or the God Beyond and I'm fine with no definite answer to this topic - especially when it is so important to so many characters and their story is just so much better if I don't know the answer to this question. This is a fantasy world with fantasy religions and deities - I don't need to place my God or no God in it to enjoy the story as presented, I will accept whatever the book presents to me. The fact that there are so many different and contradictory belief systems in Cosmere makes it just more immersive. 55 minutes ago, listerfeend said: I'm STILL not clear on if the Cosmere is a "cluster" sized universe, or simply a "cluster" within a larger universe, and WoB's don't really clear that up for me haha 43 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: The part about cluster sized universe or cluster in larger universe - AGREED. I still do not know. That alone would clear a lot of this up, I think. There is a larger universe outside of the Cosmere star cluster, with the same structure as our universe - more galaxies, superclusters etc: Spoiler Karkat Vantas Does the Physical Realm of the cosmere have more or less the same structure as our own? It's obvious from Mistborn that solar systems function as they do in our universe, but it's less obvious if there are galaxies, clusters, superclusters, and so forth. Are there? If the cosmere does have the same structure as our own, are the Shardworlds all in the same general area (a galaxy, for example), or are they completely spread out? Brandon Sanderson Good question. I designed the cosmere to have much the same structure, but imagined the action happening in a compact dwarf galaxy [alder's note - changed to a star cluster later]. Still a lot going on, but far, far fewer stars and systems than our own. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012) Edited January 18 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Well, Jesus is the Son of God, part of the Holy Trinity - one God in three persons. That might not be the best argument for that because for different religions, such as mine, believe Jesus to be a different person and a different God than his Father. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 This is a little tangential, but I just want to point out the belief system of the iri. We already know that they have some wacky stuff going on. They are on their “path” and have gone from many worlds to other ones- for example Lumar and Roshar. I think that “The One” that they talk about is related to adonalsium or is adonalsium. Just some thoughts. Alternatively, we know from tress that Hoid and the 16 others did it “for your own good” (referring to adonalsium) which implies that ado was flawed, which is antithetical to a capital g God 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 18 Author Report Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Exactly. And those 4 fundamental forces in our universe eventually created a sentient life. In the same way, fundamental forces in Cosmere allowed for investiture to gain sentience and be Adonalsium. At least in this particular theory. A Shard left without any Vessel can gain sentience on its own, so why not Adonalsium? I like this. I would be content with contradictory in universe explanations if we get more fleshed out lore for each belief system. As this comment points out 4 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said: That might not be the best argument for that because for different religions, such as mine, believe Jesus to be a different person and a different God than his Father. I enjoy learning about variations in beliefs like this and will love whatever Brandon gives us, but I really hope some of those belief systems are Adonalsium and Aether centric. We know of at least one that worships Ado - I want all of their lore! I will always wonder what the truth is and will enjoy forming my own opinion once we get some more stuff on this. 2 minutes ago, Zinc said: This is a little tangential, but I just want to point out the belief system of the iri. We already know that they have some wacky stuff going on. They are on their “path” and have gone from many worlds to other ones- for example Lumar and Roshar. I think that “The One” that they talk about is related to adonalsium or is adonalsium. Just some thoughts. Alternatively, we know from tress that Hoid and the 16 others did it “for your own good” (referring to adonalsium) which implies that ado was flawed, which is antithetical to a capital g God I like that Iri theory. What do you think of the theory that they are collectively Wisdom who splintered themselves into an entire peoples? The 'knew everything but had experienced nothing' could be talking about the inherent knowledge of the shard. Would be quite the massacre in certain definitions if the 'reformed into one' thing is accurate. To your hoid point, it seems like hoid is regretful of the shattering (at least his own involvement) which I think implies the shards are worse, though you are right that doesnt sound like omni-everything God definitions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 32 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I like that Iri theory. What do you think of the theory that they are collectively Wisdom who splintered themselves into an entire peoples? The 'knew everything but had experienced nothing' could be talking about the inherent knowledge of the shard. Would be quite the massacre in certain definitions if the 'reformed into one' thing is accurate. To your hoid point, it seems like hoid is regretful of the shattering (at least his own involvement) which I think implies the shards are worse, though you are right that doesnt sound like omni-everything God definitions. I’ve never heard that one about the iri! Is that an established theory or just a thought? I think I’d like to look into that, but if people already talked about it then I can skip that part. But yes, I believe that trying to place adonalsium as an abrahamic God is hard. A lot of the concept of a capital g God is omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. That is at odds with being killed, unless it is part of another, bigger plan, which is why I like the point with the iri. Another point of information about this is Hoid’s correspondence with Frost. I don’t remember the specifics as it’s been a bit, but the gist of the argument was that Frost wanted Hoid to stop interfering with Adonalsium’s plan, and Hoid thought that Adonalsium had already planned for everything and he should try to do good wherever possible, as it is par of the plan anyways. If anyone can pull up the book or section that talks about that, feel free to correct some parts of that summary. As I said, it’s been a little while since i read that part. This seems to imply that Hoid seems to still believe in Adonalsium, and Hoid is ancient and extremely knowledgeable 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrlAltDepressed Posted January 18 Author Report Share Posted January 18 53 minutes ago, Zinc said: I’ve never heard that one about the iri! Is that an established theory or just a thought? I think I’d like to look into that, but if people already talked about it then I can skip that part. I think I saw it on here but that may not be true. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaidakar the Ghostblood Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 2 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said: That might not be the best argument for that because for different religions, such as mine, believe Jesus to be a different person and a different God than his Father. Well, not a different God. From my perspective, it's Jesus and Heavenly Father are two separate entities, but together with the Holy Ghost do all the functions of Godhood. Heavenly Father is definitely God, but Jesus and the Holy Ghost also fulfill part of the role. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said: Well, not a different God. From my perspective, it's Jesus and Heavenly Father are two separate entities, but together with the Holy Ghost do all the functions of Godhood. Heavenly Father is definitely God, but Jesus and the Holy Ghost also fulfill part of the role. I'm not entirely sold on that, I'll PM you so as not to get off topic Edited January 18 by Immortal Platypus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelsierFortnite Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 37 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said: Well, not a different God. From my perspective, it's Jesus and Heavenly Father are two separate entities, but together with the Holy Ghost do all the functions of Godhood. Heavenly Father is definitely God, but Jesus and the Holy Ghost also fulfill part of the role. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaidakar the Ghostblood Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 8 minutes ago, KelsierFortnite said: Exactly! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 (edited) 11 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: I like this. I would be content with contradictory in universe explanations if we get more fleshed out lore for each belief system. As this comment points out I enjoy learning about variations in beliefs like this and will love whatever Brandon gives us, but I really hope some of those belief systems are Adonalsium and Aether centric. We know of at least one that worships Ado - I want all of their lore! I will always wonder what the truth is and will enjoy forming my own opinion once we get some more stuff on this. Cosmere mythology is open for interpretation on purpose. Religion is very important to many characters ans Brandon gives us all arguments we need to make our own conclusions - that there is the omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God, or that Adonalsium or Shards are true gods who doesn't need to be like Abrahamic God to be gods, or that there is no god at all in Cosmere, all of those entities came naturally because laws of physics in Cosmere allow them to exists and just like ants would see us humans as gods from their perspective, so humans can view Shards as gods from their perspective. There is really no one true answer as far as readers are concerned, we decide what works best for us. 10 hours ago, Zinc said: I’ve never heard that one about the iri! Is that an established theory or just a thought? I think I’d like to look into that, but if people already talked about it then I can skip that part. It was proposed recently a few time, here for example: https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/174123-crackpot-theory-about-the-iriali-and-the-one/ or here https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/135183-iriali-and-the-16th-shard/ 10 hours ago, Zinc said: Another point of information about this is Hoid’s correspondence with Frost. I don’t remember the specifics as it’s been a bit, but the gist of the argument was that Frost wanted Hoid to stop interfering with Adonalsium’s plan, and Hoid thought that Adonalsium had already planned for everything and he should try to do good wherever possible, as it is par of the plan anyways. If anyone can pull up the book or section that talks about that, feel free to correct some parts of that summary. As I said, it’s been a little while since i read that part. Here are SA letters for you: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters?&oldid=180609 Frost letter to Hoid: Quote I’ve never heard that one about the iri! Is that an established theory or just a thought? I think I’d like to look into that, but if people already talked about it then I can skip that part. Their interference caused only harm - the Shattering - so he decided not to interfere to not cause any more pain. Frost believes things have been set up for a reason - either it means by Adonalsium or the Bod Beyond remains a question. Edited January 18 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH2316 Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 14 hours ago, Duxredux said: there's a lot of reasons for why someone may worship something. 14 hours ago, Duxredux said: To answer OP's question in the end, my take is that there isn't a definitive answer and unlikely to be one, and evidences that would try to support a definitive answer will probably have cracks at the edges when examined too closely. In many ways the Cosmere is an exploration of what would happen if you were to give the powers of creation and divinity to ordinary people and an exploration of the ramifications of such a scenario rather than treatise on Brandon's view on religion masquerading as a collection of fantasy books. Nothing wrong with The Chronicles of Narnia, particularly if you know what you're picking up, but just sayin'. I think this above is spot on. There are lots of fantasy stories (and Chronicles of Narnia is a great example) which start from an assumption that there is one capital G god. As Duxredux said - nothing wrong with those stories....but the cosmere doesn't seem be as interested in "who's the real god" as a primary end. Instead, it's a lot of more nuanced and novel questions about god and gods (plural) - - What would necessitate that people decide to kill a god? (adolnasium) - How would people respond to learning their god is long dead? (honor & Vorins) - How does a society respond to learning their god is not the only god? (various rosharan peoples) - What is the connection between monarchs and gods? Is godhood simply increasing degrees of relative power over others? Is it right for any being mortal or immortal to place themselves above others even if they have the power to do so? (Taravangian's paternalistic and Machiavellian philosophy of the role of kings..contrasted vs. the less certain, conflicted, and slightly more progressive views of Dalinar/Jasnah/Nohodon). - What of "god-kings" who present themselves as gods to a people....until that people learns that there's some power higher? (The lord ruler / scadrians) - Can a god be in conflict with itself? (Harmony) - What would a god want? And what would they do to get it? (possibly the Iriali One...whoever the One may actually be) ....and plenty more. The thing all these themes and questions have in common though is that they require degrees of godhood and perhaps the "who is GOD full-caps?" to be left unanswered. Moreover, what is interesting about a story focusing on questions like this is not just finding definitive truths....I'd argue its just as much or more what any truths you do find about god/gods say about the people who believe in them. 14 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: See this answer is frustrating because his answer to my question above is that he doesnt want anyone to be definitively wrong. But we have seen in several books that people are straight up wrong. For instance in Stormlight, the ardents refuse to acknowledge / accept that Honor is dead - even though we know that to be true. I can understand how you could feel frustrated with this. My own take is that to ask some of the questions above, like "what happens when you learn god is dead", you have to show many possible responses to create contrasts and conflict narratively. It wouldn't be realistic otherwise. A centuries long religious order won't accept that their god is dead overnight - that's asking people to deal with a truth that contradicts their senses of self, community, and being in an absolutely profound way I don't think most people can imagine. In real life, the loss of a long-held faith is a massive and potentially even crippling challenge for people....imagine then what happens if that came with some form of "hard proof" your god was dead. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 On 1/17/2024 at 2:58 PM, Immortal Platypus said: I like this idea because we know that when enough Investiture comes together, it gains sentience, which could reasonably be applied to Adonalsium. You don't call a sun a god because you don't think it's self-aware. By definition something that is self-aware is not a phenomena anymore than you are a phenomena. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immortal Platypus Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: You don't call a sun a god because you don't think it's self-aware. By definition something that is self-aware is not a phenomena anymore than you are a phenomena. but if when a bunch of helium and hydrogen got together and formed a star, it would become sentient, would you call the sun a god? I wouldn't, it's still just a natural phenomenon. please elaborate on that. I see nothing in the definition of phenomena that says that something sentient cannot be a phenomena 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 (edited) 4 hours ago, Immortal Platypus said: but if when a bunch of helium and hydrogen got together and formed a star, it would become sentient, would you call the sun a god? I wouldn't, it's still just a natural phenomenon. please elaborate on that. I see nothing in the definition of phenomena that says that something sentient cannot be a phenomena I will give you my definition of phenomenal next shame so you must give me your definition of natural. Phenomena, Something does not have mind and so therefore cannot recieve prayer or bargained with, mediated with or give commands. As for yours answer would I call the a living sun a god if I was using a none Abrahamic definition then yes. So long as it had authority and power. Now how to you define Natural and why do you think it excludes a divine being? Edited January 29 by bmcclure7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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