The Research Vessel and their Apathetic Condoning of Tyranny

[Crimson_Russ]

Specifically when speaking to the Scadrian's and the comment about giving aid and doing all that was required of them by intergalactic law.

 

When they actively enable the oppression of an entire society at the hands of a tyrant, when they give him the ability to created the Charred, and when they withhold the knowledge of recharging Sun Hearts because they would lose an advantage that the people of Canticle couldn't exploit for economic/militaristic gain anyway seems the ultimate display of inhumanity that 'civilised' societies often justify or excuse.

 

The Night Brigade may not be very nice but honestly, considering the fact that the Scadrians were complicit in enabling the Cinder King's tyranny and directly interfered to the detriment of the general populace, I'm glad that you know they're going to get their comeuppance.

 

If you're not going to help a less advanced society, don't engage in activities that will actively make things worse.

 

They were, in my opinion, the true villains of the story.

 

The Cinder King may have taken advantage of the knowledge he received but the Scadrian's enabling of his tyranny made them worse, given how 'civilised' they are supposed to be.

 

Screw those researchers and good riddance.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Crimson_Russ
grammar

[+robardin]

And nobody helped out whoever those "few captives" the Scadrians said they had in custody, who they used to make them "give some of their heat to prime a drained sunheart" to be recharged again.

I mean, who knows how poorly they're being treated - are they in cages, like the Set had done with Allik and his crew in Bands of Mourning? - but at a minimum, they're held in an underground facility against their will, probably supplied by the Cinder King.

[+Oltux72]

I am afraid somebody needs to say it. Canticle needed a tyrant. The tyrant they had was a man whose morals were beyond questionable. Yet he was basically right.

What future did the people of Canticle have? Stagnate on a miserable world, while sending their relatives into the Sun and, eventually, themselves? They needed to unite to start any form of research to get away from that world. That would not happen on a voluntary basis. And do you really want the Scadrians to pick a tyrant for another people?

[+robardin]

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid somebody needs to say it. Canticle needed a tyrant. The tyrant they had was a man whose morals were beyond questionable. Yet he was basically right.

What future did the people of Canticle have? Stagnate on a miserable world, while sending their relatives into the Sun and, eventually, themselves? They needed to unite to start any form of research to get away from that world. That would not happen on a voluntary basis. And do you really want the Scadrians to pick a tyrant for another people?

That's why Sigzil choked back a laugh when the Cinder King spoke of unity. He'd served under Dalinar the Bondsmith. He knew what a leader who sought to "bring unity" had as options.

"Conquest doesn't remove countries," Nomad said. "It removes lines on a map. Unity requires something else."

Echoing,

Quote

"This is unity?" Dalinar asked... "No, Wit. We failed. We crushed, we killed, and we have failed miserably. ... In taking the throne by force, we implied -- no, we screamed -- that strength is the right of rule. ...we need more than tyranny, even the benevolent kind, to transform this kingdom. That is what Nohadon was teaching. And that is what I've been missing all along."

Who knows? Perhaps after 25+ years, the Cinder King, like Dalinar, would have wised up.

But probably not. Dalinar, even as the brutal Blackthorn consumed by the Thrill, was never a sadist and a bully.

Edited October 2, 2023 by robardin

[therunner]

39 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid somebody needs to say it. Canticle needed a tyrant. The tyrant they had was a man whose morals were beyond questionable. Yet he was basically right.

No it did not, and no Cinder king was most certainly not right.

Beaconites were organizing themselves quite well, and from what we know even prior to Cinder King they were surviving just fine.

Cinder King was a petty cowardly bully, who was not interested in research or betterment of situation of his people. All he used was provided by Scadrians, he did not encourage research at all.

41 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What future did the people of Canticle have? Stagnate on a miserable world, while sending their relatives into the Sun and, eventually, themselves? They needed to unite to start any form of research to get away from that world. That would not happen on a voluntary basis.

And under Cinder King the same thing would have happened. He was not interested in research, only in bullying and in looking strong.
And Scadrians gladly empowered him so long as they got what they wanted.

Yeah, the people did need to unite, but not like that. And people do unite on voluntary basis, that is how early society worked. And especially when faced with common adversity, then uniting makes sense. Only an idiot (like Cinder King) would start fighting other people.

Quote

And do you really want the Scadrians to pick a tyrant for another people?

No, which is why they should not have empowered Cinder King in the first place. They already did pick a Tyrant for another people, and then hid behind interplanetary law (which they probably broke when they provided him with knowledge of creating cinderhearts).

Scadrians are quite hypocritical, providing people of Canticle with one discovery (cinderhearts and their creation) while holding back another (how to recharge sunhearts), while claiming they cannot interfere, after they already did.

[+robardin]

On 10/2/2023 at 4:51 PM, therunner said:

[The Scadrians] should not have empowered Cinder King in the first place. They already did pick a Tyrant for another people, and then hid behind interplanetary law (which they probably broke when they provided him with knowledge of creating cinderhearts).

Scadrians are quite hypocritical, providing people of Canticle with one discovery (cinderhearts and their creation) while holding back another (how to recharge sunhearts), while claiming they cannot interfere, after they already did.

Refresh my memory - what is this you're referring to?

Also remember that Nomad mentions there are multiple factions on Scadrial:

Quote

These were TimeTellers, one faction among the many Scadrian political movements. Theoretically they were neutral in the current conflicts. A group of scientists, seeking to “understand the various mysteries of the cosmere.” And they were absolutely not, of course, an arm of the military working in secret to develop tech that would let Scadrial stay ahead...

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by robardin

[Treamayne]

On 10/2/2023 at 4:51 PM, therunner said:

They already did pick a Tyrant for another people,

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Refresh my memory - what is this you're referring to?

I beleive (assuming the bolded section was your question) that @therunner was referring to trading with the Cinder King at all was essentially chosing him to become the Tyrant of Canticle.

I wonder if this (and similar) event(s) are what caused the Trading Clauses, as seen in Sixth of the Dusk. . .

 

 

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I wonder if this (and similar) event(s) are what caused the Trading Clauses, as seen in Sixth of the Dusk. . .

Such conventions are usually written either before the possibility really exists (convention on weapons in outer space) or after they have ceased to be relevant. The convention on land mines and cluster ammunition is instructive in that regard. The list of countries not signing is basically the list of countries taking the possibilty of a major land war seriously.

I'd take Sixth of the Dusk to take place in an era where the Cosmere is mostly explored. In terms of rough earth analogs The Sunlit Man seems to be in an early state of expansion - earth 1700 in terms of geopolitics - versus an era where further gains will require actively fighting other empires to take worlds away from them - earth 1890 - for Sixth of the Dusk. The main difference - politically speaking - between the Cosmere and Earth may be the lack of a Trinity moment.
Yes, they can depopulate a planet, but there is no MAD. You can still win a general war.

[StanLemon]

I trust that Brandon will make future Scadrial more nuanced. Especially because a) Sigzil's comment about Scadrian factions and b ) the final series in the Cosmere will be Mistborn series but it sure feels like he's presenting them as the "bad guys"

Edited October 5, 2023 by StanLemon

[Firesong]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:16 AM, Oltux72 said:

Such conventions are usually written either before the possibility really exists (convention on weapons in outer space) or after they have ceased to be relevant. The convention on land mines and cluster ammunition is instructive in that regard. The list of countries not signing is basically the list of countries taking the possibilty of a major land war seriously.

I'd take Sixth of the Dusk to take place in an era where the Cosmere is mostly explored. In terms of rough earth analogs The Sunlit Man seems to be in an early state of expansion - earth 1700 in terms of geopolitics - versus an era where further gains will require actively fighting other empires to take worlds away from them - earth 1890 - for Sixth of the Dusk. The main difference - politically speaking - between the Cosmere and Earth may be the lack of a Trinity moment.
Yes, they can depopulate a planet, but there is no MAD. You can still win a general war.

Oh, I bet that there would be MAD, Scadrial has knowledge on how to make massive Invested Nukes. Sig also knows about nuclear reactors, which came after nuclear bombs. So I definitely believe that they would have MAD. 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

Oh, I bet that there would be MAD, Scadrial has knowledge on how to make massive Invested Nukes. Sig also knows about nuclear reactors, which came after nuclear bombs. So I definitely believe that they would have MAD. 

No, for they lack the equivalent of an ICBM on the cosmic scale. You can have a nuclear war. But it would be winnable.

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, for they lack the equivalent of an ICBM on the cosmic scale. You can have a nuclear war. But it would be winnable.

Except they do have an equivalent - it's called Shadesmar. Or do you think a planet could surive the destruction of it's Cognitive Self? Alternately, WMD is smuggled via Shadesmar and moved to the PR via Transportation (generically speaking). 

[+Oltux72]

On 8.10.2023 at 4:51 PM, Treamayne said:

Except they do have an equivalent - it's called Shadesmar. Or do you think a planet could surive the destruction of it's Cognitive Self? Alternately, WMD is smuggled via Shadesmar and moved to the PR via Transportation (generically speaking). 

Shadesmar is terrible for an attack, let alone an invasion. The defender has huge logistic advantages and you have to gurd in a ring as opposed to a sphere.

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Shadesmar is terrible for an attack, let alone an invasion. The defender has huge logistic advantages and you have to gurd in a ring as opposed to a sphere.

You're saying "guard" as if the topic was an invasion. I thought the topic was Mutually Assured Destruction. Guard in a ring all you want, it only takes one suicide bomber with an invested briefcase nuke to destroy sneak into the local Shadesmar and blow it all up. It may not be an interplanetary missile system, but it is definitely a way to imply "kill our planet and we can assure that you die too."

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

You're saying "guard" as if the topic was an invasion. I thought the topic was Mutually Assured Destruction. Guard in a ring all you want, it only takes one suicide bomber with an invested briefcase nuke to destroy sneak into the local Shadesmar and blow it all up. It may not be an interplanetary missile system, but it is definitely a way to imply "kill our planet and we can assure that you die too."

You won't blow it all up. You'll land a few warheads. And in Shadesmar you are limited to flying with atmospheric speeds over featureless terrain with no weather.

[Treamayne]

14 hours ago, Treamayne said:

one suicide bomber with an invested briefcase nuke

=

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 flying with atmospheric speeds over featureless terrain with no weather

?

[+Oltux72]

Again, a single nuke will do horrendous damage, where it explodes. But you are not going to destroy a whole planet.

I am afraid we need to look at the basics. Nuclear weapons are so frightening because we have delivery systems. With the technology of, let's say, 1850 nuclear weapons would be far less an advantage than they were in 1950, because you could not smash multiple cities with the fleets of bombers an industrialized country can build but not defend with the required reliability against.

The Cosmere will likely be somewhere in between. To destroy a heavily defended planet you need to overcome either its space defences or get at its subastral. Yet they have battle fleets. There is no reason an attacking fleet would have advantage against a defending fleet. In Shadesmar, this is even worse, because your speed is limited to a few times the speed of sound (air resistance) and you'll be very very visible if you do that.

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Cosmere will likely be somewhere in between. To destroy a heavily defended planet you need to overcome either its space defences or get at its subastral. Yet they have battle fleets. There is no reason an attacking fleet would have advantage against a defending fleet. In Shadesmar, this is even worse, because your speed is limited to a few times the speed of sound (air resistance) and you'll be very very visible if you do that.

That still does not explain how you jumped from the concept I made of single people on-foot (raft?) in Shadesmar to fleets of theoretical supersonic machines in Shadesmar.

What I am saying is that, for example, the "invested bomb" in TLM was potentially powerful enough to destroy all of Scadrial (TLM Ch 69):

Spoiler

 I don’t think Autonomy or her agents understand how destructive this is. Looking at this, and how much metal they’ve used, I suspect they severely underestimated this bomb’s power.

If we were simply talking about harmonium blowing up when combined with water, then yes: you could detonate it safely out here in the ocean. But a blast caused by splitting harmonium with trellium … My friends, I have no idea how much power that would release. I can’t exactly be sure what will happen if something this powerful is ignited. It could set the very atmosphere ablaze.

If not, it would potentially vaporize not just Elendel and Bilming, but many cities nearby as well. 

Now, if that were set off in the Scadrian Shadesmar (where all land is represented by Mist) we cannot guess at how the destruction of the Cognitive Identity of a continent would effect the planet. . . I understand and mostly agree with your reasoning in large-formation warfare. I'm saying that asymmetric warfare presents options that still reinforce the concepts of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) which may be why the conecpt can still apply in an invested-WMD capable Cosmere.

Nothing is certain, of course, but the possibilites are not all ruled-out based on current data.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Frustration]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:15 AM, Oltux72 said:

Again, a single nuke will do horrendous damage, where it explodes. But you are not going to destroy a whole planet.

I am afraid we need to look at the basics. Nuclear weapons are so frightening because we have delivery systems. With the technology of, let's say, 1850 nuclear weapons would be far less an advantage than they were in 1950, because you could not smash multiple cities with the fleets of bombers an industrialized country can build but not defend with the required reliability against.

The Cosmere will likely be somewhere in between. To destroy a heavily defended planet you need to overcome either its space defences or get at its subastral. Yet they have battle fleets. There is no reason an attacking fleet would have advantage against a defending fleet. In Shadesmar, this is even worse, because your speed is limited to a few times the speed of sound (air resistance) and you'll be very very visible if you do that.

Planets have souls.

Spoiler

Nepene

Do Cosmere planets have a soul, like in Final Fantasy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4056

You don't need to destroy the planet, you just have to kill it.

On 10/11/2023 at 4:30 AM, Treamayne said:

What I am saying is that, for example, the "invested bomb" in TLM was potentially powerful enough to destroy all of Scadrial (TLM Ch 69):

  Reveal hidden contents

 I don’t think Autonomy or her agents understand how destructive this is. Looking at this, and how much metal they’ve used, I suspect they severely underestimated this bomb’s power.

If we were simply talking about harmonium blowing up when combined with water, then yes: you could detonate it safely out here in the ocean. But a blast caused by splitting harmonium with trellium … My friends, I have no idea how much power that would release. I can’t exactly be sure what will happen if something this powerful is ignited. It could set the very atmosphere ablaze.

If not, it would potentially vaporize not just Elendel and Bilming, but many cities nearby as well. 

 

Atmospheric ignition would require far more power.

https://youtu.be/2QI88aLyaOs?si=7SCULrMbaZVFKOX1

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Atmospheric ignition would require far more power.

https://youtu.be/2QI88aLyaOs?si=7SCULrMbaZVFKOX1

Okay - not arguing. But it was Harmony that thought it was potentially that powerful, not me.

My only point was that we do not yet know the consequences of a bomb that powerful detonated on a planet's Shadesmar.

[Dreamwa1ker]

I just finished the book this week and one thing that really stuck out to me about the TimeTellers was a particular phrasing they used in conversation with Nomad about recharging sunhearts: 

Quote

“Storms!” Nomad said, hand to his forehead. “Why didn’t you tell them?”

“Why would we reveal such a useful secret?”

The mention of secrets always sets off Kelsier alarm bells in my head. I don't think Kelsier would personally approve of installing a tyrant like this (look at The Lord Ruler) but I do wonder if his mindset in terms of holding back info to only be slowly and strategically revealed could have influenced through the broader Scadrian culture in some pretty bad ways. I mean we have already seen similar with the Ghostbloods on Roshar and the way Mraize only slow drips Cosmere info to Shallan to keep control of her.

Could TimeTellers also be influenced by Ghostbloods or otherwise contact/influenced by Kelsier? Or has he had this influence more generally e.g. on Malwish culture? (since they called that a "civilized" language I'm assuming there is a Southern influence in this group)

[JustQuestin2004]

3 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Could TimeTellers also be influenced by Ghostbloods or otherwise contact/influenced by Kelsier? Or has he had this influence more generally e.g. on Malwish culture? (since they called that a "civilized" language I'm assuming there is a Southern influence in this group)

I think the answer is probably leftover cultural paranoia and anti-espionage tendencies from the 'spy-thriller Cold War' state of Scadrial in Era 3. Since the Malwish would probably rather pull their own teeth out than willingly give their secrets to the 'Maskless Barbarians' of the North.

But yeah, I think this is probably a domino effect from Kelsier's methods, just like how the Set was a domino effect from Kel's actions. He may not have intended for it to happen, but it did.

[Arkangel]

On 4/1/2024 at 5:22 PM, Dreamwa1ker said:

I just finished the book this week and one thing that really stuck out to me about the TimeTellers was a particular phrasing they used in conversation with Nomad about recharging sunhearts: 

The mention of secrets always sets off Kelsier alarm bells in my head. I don't think Kelsier would personally approve of installing a tyrant like this (look at The Lord Ruler) but I do wonder if his mindset in terms of holding back info to only be slowly and strategically revealed could have influenced through the broader Scadrian culture in some pretty bad ways. I mean we have already seen similar with the Ghostbloods on Roshar and the way Mraize only slow drips Cosmere info to Shallan to keep control of her.

Could TimeTellers also be influenced by Ghostbloods or otherwise contact/influenced by Kelsier? Or has he had this influence more generally e.g. on Malwish culture? (since they called that a "civilized" language I'm assuming there is a Southern influence in this group)

We know that Cognitive beings take on the qualities perceived of them by the masses in the Physical. It could be that, over time, Kelsier's "There's always another secret" has pervaded the Scadrian mythos, surrounding The Survivor, in such a way that Kelsier can't help but keep secrets and runs his organizations as such.