The Limits of Wyrn's Sight

[JustQuestin2004]

So I've been wondering about Wyrn, specifically his strange ability to see the future.

This was demonstrated when Wyrn anticipated Hrathen's betrayal and sent an assassin at the precise place and time to kill him.

But if Wyrn could see something so specific, why didn't he anticpate anything else of far greater importance like, I don't know, Raoden fixing Elantris?

So these facts plus the nature of all Selish Arts has led me to a hypothesis: Wyrn's futuresight only works on people from Fjorden.

The only time we've seen it, is on Fjorden people, Hrathen and the priest guy who killed him.

Perhaps this is due to Wyrn's future-sight working via Connection, he can see the future's of everyone so long as they are part of Fjorden, with the constantly expanding and conquering that Fjorden has done, perhaps this is done in part to expand the reach of Fjorden's Magics. Both Dahkor's and Wyrn's.

It's all speculation with very little evidence but I don't see how anyone with future-sight would have fixated on something as small as a preist gong traitor over the restoration of the only beings on Sel that can truly win against Fjorden.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Wyrn's futuresight only works on people from Fjorden.

The only time we've seen it, is on Fjorden people, Hrathen and the priest guy who killed him.

Very nice theory. It is entirely possible that the access to Fortune is based on Connection (either National Connection to Fjorden, or Connection to Shu Dereth). But it is also possible that Wyrn isn;t the one using Fortune at all. WoB (Non-Elantris spoilers removed):

Spoiler

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. <snip> Is Jaddeth an avatar?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

If Wyrn really is getting messages from a being known as Jaddeth - the information may come from that being (possible Avatar) and why they share what they share may have similar limits, or may just be due to ulterior motives.

5 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

fixated on something as small as a preist going traitor over the restoration of the only beings on Sel that can truly win against Fjorden.

Also keep in mind that separate uses of Fortune interfere with each other. (Mistborn/SA spoilers):

Spoiler

In Mistborn, we see that Atium and Electrum interfere with Atium. In SA we see that Renarin's access to Fortune disrupts Odium's ability to see events around him.

So, it is possible that some other access to Fortune was disrupting the ability to see the fate of Elantris. If that was Raoden inadvertantly accessing Fortune to try restoring Elantris, or something/someone else acessing it during that time (The Mysteries seem to try accessing Fortune with their rituals) is unclear. This is by-no-means definite, but it also is not so unlikely as to be discountible.

[JustQuestin2004]

37 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Very nice theory. It is entirely possible that the access to Fortune is based on Connection (either National Connection to Fjorden, or Connection to Shu Dereth). But it is also possible that Wyrn isn;t the one using Fortune at all. WoB (Non-Elantris spoilers removed):

  Reveal hidden contents

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. <snip> Is Jaddeth an avatar?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

If Wyrn really is getting messages from a being known as Jaddeth - the information may come from that being (possible Avatar) and why they share what they share may have similar limits, or may just be due to ulterior motives.

Oh yeah, it would be a little odd for Wyrn to have exclusive access to some type of Future-Sight Selish Art. Unless he was dunking his head into Dominion's Perpendcularity to peer into the Spiritual Realm.

 

38 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Also keep in mind that separate uses of Fortune interfere with each other. (Mistborn/SA spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

In Mistborn, we see that Atium and Electrum interfere with Atium. In SA we see that Renarin's access to Fortune disrupts Odium's ability to see events around him.

So, it is possible that some other access to Fortune was disrupting the ability to see the fate of Elantris. If that was Raoden inadvertantly accessing Fortune to try restoring Elantris, or something/someone else acessing it during that time (The Mysteries seem to try accessing Fortune with their rituals) is unclear. This is by-no-means definite, but it also is not so unlikely as to be discountible.

Maybe it was Hoid, he was around at the time, he might have nudged things.

[+Oltux72]

On 16.9.2023 at 9:06 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

So I've been wondering about Wyrn, specifically his strange ability to see the future.

This was demonstrated when Wyrn anticipated Hrathen's betrayal and sent an assassin at the precise place and time to kill him.

But he didn't anticipate it. Sending one man to kill a traitor but not informing the invading forces makes no sense at all.
Wyrm did not know why it would be necessary to kill Hrathen under those circumstances. He knew only that it was needed.

On 16.9.2023 at 9:06 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Perhaps this is due to Wyrn's future-sight working via Connection, he can see the future's of everyone so long as they are part of Fjorden, with the constantly expanding and conquering that Fjorden has done, perhaps this is done in part to expand the reach of Fjorden's Magics. Both Dahkor's and Wyrn's.

Knowing that something is necessary but not why is typical for the use of Fortune.

On 16.9.2023 at 2:57 PM, Treamayne said:

Also keep in mind that separate uses of Fortune interfere with each other. (Mistborn/SA spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

In Mistborn, we see that Atium and Electrum interfere with Atium. In SA we see that Renarin's access to Fortune disrupts Odium's ability to see events around him.

 

I'd say that that is specifically not a use of Fortune. The act of seeing the future is not compatible with what we are seeing from people confirmed to use Fortune.

Yes, that means that the Cosmere has two distinct methods of precognition.

[Treamayne]

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I'd say that that is specifically not a use of Fortune. The act of seeing the future is not compatible with what we are seeing from people confirmed to use Fortune.

Disagree. WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

[I believe that] Using Atium is specifically a form of accessing Fortune [based on the above]].

Edit in brackets. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarity

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Using Atium is specifically a form of accessing Fortune.

Quote

foreshadowing for Fortune

Not foreshadowing of Fortune.

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Not foreshadowing of Fortune.

Which would be why I said "disagree" (not "wrong")

We are interpreting the same information differently - and pending further information, both are valid interpretations. I beleive that WoB means that Atium is a form of accessing Fortune, you do not. We are both allowed to beleive our interpretations so long as we are not pretending our single interpretation is definitive "truth."

[alder24]

37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I'd say that that is specifically not a use of Fortune. The act of seeing the future is not compatible with what we are seeing from people confirmed to use Fortune.

Yes, that means that the Cosmere has two distinct methods of precognition.

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Using Atium is specifically a form of accessing Fortune.

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

I think it's debatable if Atium is accessing Fortune or not, but there are definitely (per WoB) two ways of future sight in Cosmere - one is by using Fortune, which always involves SR, the other is by using SR directly which doesn't always involve Fortune. I'm leaning towards the second option being true for Atium - Atium allows you to peer directly into SR, without accessing Fortune. But change in your or others Fortune would affect Atium's future sight.

Spoiler

Chaos

Odium said to Taravangian, "You did this without access to Fortune or the Spiritual Realm?" How does one access Fortune without the Spiritual Realm or Feruchemical chromium, as almost all future sight tends to utilize the Spiritual Realm in some way?

Brandon Sanderson

So, that line is mostly just me saying... *long pause* I think you're picking apart those things too much.

Chaos

Right, that makes sense. Hey, Odium said it, so I didn't know-- Gotta take that seriously, so.

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, don't read too much into picking apart those two things. You can read it as-- Honestly, that is me making sure I am being clear in the text.

Chaos

That there are those are two different things.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah those are two different things, but they are just interrelated. Fortune is a property, and the Spiritual Realm is a place, but not a place. Do you know what I mean? To use Fortune, you're always involving the Spiritual Realm, but in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always involving Fortune.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

 

Spoiler

TearablePuns

Can a person compounding Luck defeat a Mistborn burning atium?

Brandon Sanderson

*Hesitantly* Yes. That is theoretically possible. I would say the emphasis on, "Could there?" But it is plausible that that could get around it.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Spoiler

The Young Pyromancer

Is the reason Renarin's name is greyed out due to a conflict of Fortune with Odium, similar to [an electrum] user fighting an atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

[+Oltux72]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Which would be why I said "disagree" (not "wrong")

We are interpreting the same information differently - and pending further information, both are valid interpretations. I beleive that WoB means that Atium is a form of accessing Fortune, you do not. We are both allowed to beleive our interpretations so long as we are not pretending our single interpretation is definitive "truth."

Well, the basic question remains. Why did he send a single assassin?

[Treamayne]

41 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, the basic question remains. Why did he send a single assassin?

Any question of motive is speculation without more data.

I always thought it was because he felt that Hrathen had betrayed him (when it was he who betrayed Hrathen, but of course he won't see any reason that places fault upon himself), and I'm not sure he expected Fjon to succeed, so much as to pit them against each other and both results were acceptable.

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I always thought it was because he felt that Hrathen had betrayed him (when it was he who betrayed Hrathen, but of course he won't see any reason that places fault upon himself), and I'm not sure he expected Fjon to succeed, so much as to pit them against each other and both results were acceptable.

Why do you send the assassin to the island? Why not just tell Dilaf to kill Hrathen?

[Treamayne]

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why do you send the assassin to the island? Why not just tell Dilaf to kill Hrathen?

How? If Dilaf had access to a Seon or Skaze while undercover, he would not have tried to access Hrathen's Seon while Hrathen was posing as Reod. . . 

Also, it may not have been anything definite - just a "possibility." By sending Fjon to Teoras, if Hrathen shows, a countermeasure is already in place, if Hrathen does not show, then he has not become a traitor. 

[+Oltux72]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

How? If Dilaf had access to a Seon or Skaze while undercover, he would not have tried to access Hrathen's Seon while Hrathen was posing as Reod. . .

By messenger. If you can send an assassin to a distant island, you can send a messenger to Arelon.

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Also, it may not have been anything definite - just a "possibility." By sending Fjon to Teoras, if Hrathen shows, a countermeasure is already in place, if Hrathen does not show, then he has not become a traitor. 

That does not really make sense. See, if you know that he might turn traitor, there is no point in waiting for him to go to Teoras. Conclusion: Wyrm knows that he should have Hrathen killed, if he goes to Teoras, but he has no idea why that would be necessary.

[Duxredux]

TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

There's a few WoBs that imply that Jaddeth is an Avatar of Autonomy. Autonomy has weird survival of the fittest contests going on. Wyrn might have wanted to just crush Arelon and Teod, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort of implicit or explicit restriction from Autonomy to allow Hrathen and Dilaf to compete to be the best Derethi priest in Arelon, Dilaf's statements to discourage Hrathen notwithstanding. Wyrn may have an agenda that doesn't fully align with Autonomy's Intent, and may have to use backwards methods to accomplish his goals like framing Hrathen's assassination as another competition. 

Mistborn SH spoilers:

Spoiler

If I remember right, we also know that the Ire know about Fortune and may have ways to identify if someone is drawing on Fortune. There may be Elantris specific shielding/disruption on Fortune that was still weakly in effect in Arelon that didn't extend to the geographically distant Teo.

 

[Firesong]

On the Wyrn and such, it is 100% gonna be answered in Elantris 2. As Elantris 2 is going to have way more focus on Fjorden and Jaddeth and such, from what Brandon has discussed about his plans for the book. It is going to have a lot of focus on Kaise and Adien, and deal with the return of Jaddeth. He also says it would start dealing with things that need to be set into canon by the time of Era 3 Mistborn, which leaves me curious about what begins to happen. 

I still hold by my fan theory that Elantris 3 ends with the Dor being returned to the Spiritual Realm, and it either being taken by one Vessel, or two. The reasons just have to deal with how important he says the story is, and with some details that I will put in spoilers:

(Tress Spoilers, and very mild Mistborn and Stormlight)

Spoiler

AonDor was used pretty freely on Lumar and it didn't seem to need any bottles of Dor, it was just making the symbols and getting the enaction of phenomena and such, like it is on Sel. Hoid also did not explain this, leaving me to think that it would be inherently obvious to the listeners, thus I theorize Dor returned to the Spiritual Realm, removing the location limits, and that the Aons remained the same due to like, Connection and Shardic memory and the like. 

 

It just makes a lot of sense to me, as it would explain this, and would also explain why the Elantris trilogy would be so important to the overall cosmere. As the two series he says are most important, Mistborn and Stormlight, both have a lot to do with things happening with Shards. 

Unrelated, but I am happy he plans to improve the way he writes Adien in Elantris 2, with his greater skill with the subject and access to people who can guide him. As, Adien is probably my least favourite part of Elantris 1. It isn't malicious or anything, he says he meant well but was just ignorant, and I believe him as I feel his major improvements on that front prove the truth of that statement,  but was not the best representation. 

[trav]

Even for Shards the visions of the future are iffy. They are not clear for them either.

It could be as little as a hunch to sent someone to kill Hrathen at a specific moment in time without even knowing why and what consequences this would have.

This limitation is necessary for the story. Infallible future vision creates paradoxes.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

Quote

On the Wyrn and such, it is 100% gonna be answered in Elantris 2. As Elantris 2 is going to have way more focus on Fjorden and Jaddeth and such, from what Brandon has discussed about his plans for the book. It is going to have a lot of focus on Kaise and Adien, and deal with the return of Jaddeth. He also says it would start dealing with things that need to be set into canon by the time of Era 3 Mistborn, which leaves me curious about what begins to happen. 

I still hold by my fan theory that Elantris 3 ends with the Dor being returned to the Spiritual Realm, and it either being taken by one Vessel, or two. The reasons just have to deal with how important he says the story is, and with some details that I will put in spoilers:

Once again, I totally agree with your theory. I'm excited to see what other stories could point to this being true. 

Quote

 

 

Unrelated, but I am happy he plans to improve the way he writes Adien in Elantris 2, with his greater skill with the subject and access to people who can guide him. As, Adien is probably my least favourite part of Elantris 1. It isn't malicious or anything, he says he meant well but was just ignorant, and I believe him as I feel his major improvements on that front prove the truth of that statement,  but was not the best representation. 

I'm very happy he has plans to improve on Adien's writing. Especially someone who recently found out I was diagnosed with autism as a child (might seek a re-diagnosis).

 

As for the topic of Wyrn, I don't have solid answers on his specific abilities. So far my only source of future sight and Fortune is from the MB trilogy, which I have my complaints about as some people in this thread may know. But anyway, I have some theories as to why Wyrn's future sight didn't focus on something of greater importance.

1. Wyrn's future sight was limited to the perception of a mortal - Wyrn himself. His future sight may be impressive compared to atium burning, but not compared to beings or objects steeped in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms, which I'm assuming some of the above commenters are referring to and theorizing about. Wyrn's future sight may be insignificant compared to Shards, Jaddeth the possible Avatar, and Dominion's... Perpendicularity?

2. Wyrn was trying to see the future of Elantris but clashed with Raoden's possible Fortune or future sight, clouding its accuracy. Similar to how an atium shadow splits into countless shadows when reading other atium burners. I believe Raoden's talent in AonDor was machinated by Devotion, along with his vision of the Chasm line. 

3. Raoden was clouding Wyrn's future sight ever since he became an Elantrian. This is just speculation and it ties into my theory that Devotion and Dominion have been weaving a greater, precognitive plot behind the scenes. 

[+Oltux72]

13 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

1. Wyrn's future sight was limited to the perception of a mortal - Wyrn himself. His future sight may be impressive compared to atium burning, but not compared to beings or objects steeped in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms, which I'm assuming some of the above commenters are referring to and theorizing about. Wyrn's future sight may be insignificant compared to Shards, Jaddeth the possible Avatar, and Dominion's... Perpendicularity?

2. Wyrn was trying to see the future of Elantris but clashed with Raoden's possible Fortune or future sight, clouding its accuracy. Similar to how an atium shadow splits into countless shadows when reading other atium burners. I believe Raoden's talent in AonDor was machinated by Devotion, along with his vision of the Chasm line. 

3. Raoden was clouding Wyrn's future sight ever since he became an Elantrian. This is just speculation and it ties into my theory that Devotion and Dominion have been weaving a greater, precognitive plot behind the scenes. 

That would mean that Wyrn foresaw people with precognition, but did not send in Dakhor monks in force immediately regardless of the consequences. And that makes little sense.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That would mean that Wyrn foresaw people with precognition, but did not send in Dakhor monks in force immediately regardless of the consequences. And that makes little sense.

It makes sense. An impression I’m getting from Cosmere magic is that it heavily relies on knowledge. If a mortal magic user is using a type of magic, their use of it might be limited to personal knowledge and/or the knowledge of those around them. 

Wyrn has future sight, but he may not be knowledgeable of the fact that clashing with other forms of future sight can create inaccuracies. Besides, we have yet to know what form his future sight takes or its fuel.

[KelsierFortnite]

On 9/16/2023 at 8:57 AM, Treamayne said:

Very nice theory. It is entirely possible that the access to Fortune is based on Connection (either National Connection to Fjorden, or Connection to Shu Dereth). But it is also possible that Wyrn isn;t the one using Fortune at all. WoB (Non-Elantris spoilers removed

  Hide contents

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. <snip> Is Jaddeth an avatar?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

If Wyrn really is getting messages from a being known as Jaddeth - the information may come from that being (possible Avatar) and why they share what they share may have similar limits, or may just be due to ulterior motives.

Also keep in mind that separate uses of Fortune interfere with each other. (Mistborn/SA spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

In Mistborn, we see that Atium and Electrum interfere with Atium. In SA we see that Renarin's access to Fortune disrupts Odium's ability to see events around him.

So, it is possible that some other access to Fortune was disrupting the ability to see the fate of Elantris. If that was Raoden inadvertantly accessing Fortune to try restoring Elantris, or something/someone else acessing it during that time (The Mysteries seem to try accessing Fortune with their rituals) is unclear. This is by-no-means definite, but it also is not so unlikely as to be discountible.

How would Jaddeth be communicating with Wyrn in this case? Do the restrictions on Shards communicating apply to avatars?

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, KelsierFortnite said:

How would Jaddeth be communicating with Wyrn in this case? Do the restrictions on Shards communicating apply to avatars?

Have you read The Lost Metal? (Spoilers)

Spoiler

We see in there an example of an Avatar communicating with a person that may become that Avatar's Vessel. Similarities may apply. 

 

[KelsierFortnite]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Have you read The Lost Metal? (Spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

We see in there an example of an Avatar communicating with a person that may become that Avatar's Vessel. Similarities may apply. 

 

No, TLM is the one Mistborn book I haven't read yet.

[Treamayne]

Just now, KelsierFortnite said:

No, TLM is the one Mistborn book I haven't read yet.

How about Rhythm of War (TLM has minor spoilers for RoW)

You may get some answers (or indications) when you get there. 

[Lord Spirit]

Just wanted to add, there's potentially an additional example of wyrns foresight, which happens when the captain of the Elantris city gaurd is at the gate when Hrathen needs to leave Elantris, which he mentions as a "coincidence". But it's another example of a random person being at the right place at the right time for an unexplained reason (the captain would have no reason to expect someone would leave Elantris as it's never happened). I'm not sure how Wyrn would have arranged this, as Dilaf was unaware of Hrathens plan (he was shocked when he was Hrathen return); It would probably be from the direct influence of Jaddeth (autonomy?).