New Stormlight 5 Preview Reading from Brandon - Tampa Bay Comic Con

[Firesong she/her]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I have nothing more to add as both @Firesong and @therunner explained my view on Jasnah and her atheism better than I ever could.

I don't know why you're so confused by it @bmcclure7. Just because she accepts that Shards exist, that beings like Hoid or Heralds exist, doesn't mean she has faith in them, that she believes religiously in them, or that she worships them. She refuses to accept that those beings are divine, that they are supernatural and that they are Gods. That's what makes her atheist. She thinks their greater power comes from natural sources, that it can be explained and measured, and we on this forum know that's true, as investiture in Cosmere is natural, it's just energy in a different state. Their powers come from Connections and Spirit Web. They aren't supernatural in Cosmere, they can be replicated and that makes them a simple science. Jasnah calling Hoid "a god" doesn't mean she believes in him, or she accepts him as a god, any more than it makes an atheist on Earth a Christian by saying "oh God".

While one can worship forces of nature as gods on Earth, it doesn't mean that acknowledging wind's existence makes you a believer in a wind deity. Those people assign divine attributes to natural phenomena, that's what makes them believers. Does Jasnah do that? No. She does the opposite. She takes divine attributes and divine beings and assigns them natural explanations. She refuses to accept that those beings are gods and worthy of being worshiped as for her they are just a part of nature, not divine at all. That's atheism.

Compare it to Dalinar's position. He similarly refuses to accept that Shards are gods, despite knowing they exist and they hold greater power, he refuses to accept that Adonalsium was a god, instead he believes that there must be another, true God, one that can't be killed, can't be seen, and exists in the Beyond. He's a believer not because he believes Shards exist, but because he believes there is a different divine being out there, who isn't Honor, nor Almighty, nor Cultivation or Odium. 

Oh yeah, religions like that, more Animist ones and such, are another good example, as we all fully believe those phenomena exist, but don't believe that they are deities or anything.

Forgot to mention that. 

[bmcclure7]

15 hours ago, therunner said:

That dictionary meaning is an oversimplification of the word 'atheism' (and not the only one btw, valid interpretation is also e.g. the philosophical position stating that there is no supreme being or beings.  )

Atheism is rather broad, and is simply rejection of existence of deities ('gods'). Deity is a supernatural being that is considered sacred.

Jasnah comfortably fits with that since:

1. She does not belief Shards (or Ado) are supernatural within context of Cosmere.
2. She does not consider Shards (or Ado) to be sacred.
3. More broadly, she generally believes that anything that is observerable can be explained. And that only observable things exist. So she does not belief in anything supernatural.

Hence, she does not consider Shards or any other such being 'god'. Nor does she belief in God Beyond or any other such superstitions.
She is as atheistic as they come.

The fact that she uses the word 'god' in colloquial conversation/thought (to denote being of great power) has no bearing on her philosophical stances.
Meeting an immortal who has powers and understanding far beyond you (and who is worshiped in some corners of your planet) you might sometimes think of him as a god in this colloquial sense, and yet logically understand that he is 'just' powerful.

I am an atheist, and I still use words like 'god' or 'godlike', they are just words.

Ashardic makes no sense as a term for her, she acknowledges existence of Shards, she just does not worship them (i.e. does not consider them deities).
That is one of the factors that makes her atheist.

No it does not mean that, It has everything to do with belief in existence of gods. Just look at the etymology and historical use

Jasnah is secular and is repudiating existance of gods. She is atheist.

1. I suggest YOU look up the etymology, Both Christians and Jews were referred to as atheist.  

 

2.  By your own omission she knows honor exist so she's not doubting the existence of the gods. She might be denying their divinity but that's not the same thing. 

 

 

[bmcclure7]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

I have nothing more to add as both @Firesong and @therunner explained my view on Jasnah and her atheism better than I ever could.

I don't know why you're so confused by it @bmcclure7. Just because she accepts that Shards exist, that beings like Hoid or Heralds exist, doesn't mean she has faith in them, that she believes religiously in them, or that she worships them. She refuses to accept that those beings are divine, that they are supernatural and that they are Gods. That's what makes her atheist. She thinks their greater power comes from natural sources, that it can be explained and measured, and we on this forum know that's true, as investiture in Cosmere is natural, it's just energy in a different state. Their powers come from Connections and Spirit Web. They aren't supernatural in Cosmere, they can be replicated and that makes them a simple science. Jasnah calling Hoid "a god" doesn't mean she believes in him, or she accepts him as a god, any more than it makes an atheist on Earth a Christian by saying "oh God".

While one can worship forces of nature as gods on Earth, it doesn't mean that acknowledging wind's existence makes you a believer in a wind deity. Those people assign divine attributes to natural phenomena, that's what makes them believers. Does Jasnah do that? No. She does the opposite. She takes divine attributes and divine beings and assigns them natural explanations. She refuses to accept that those beings are gods and worthy of being worshiped as for her they are just a part of nature, not divine at all. That's atheism.

Compare it to Dalinar's position. He similarly refuses to accept that Shards are gods, despite knowing they exist and they hold greater power, he refuses to accept that Adonalsium was a god, instead he believes that there must be another, true God, one that can't be killed, can't be seen, and exists in the Beyond. He's a believer not because he believes Shards exist, but because he believes there is a different divine being out there, who isn't Honor, nor Almighty, nor Cultivation or Odium. 

  Except for not having Faith in a god is not what an atheist is.   An atheist is someone who disbelieves in the existence of God. 

 

That's my point if that's what you're saying Jasnah is and she is by definition not atheist. 

[bmcclure7]

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You're banking too much on the liberal definition of god. If someone worships rocks (looking at you, Shinovar), then the rocks are gods to them. That does not mean that rocks are suddenly equivalent to a Shard, just because they're both things that people worship. It just means that in some people's opinion and perspective, rocks are deities. That does not make rocks objectively deities.

Jasnah is Vorin, and was raised worshipping the Almighty, who is much closer to the Abrahamic version of god. Once you're raised around the idea that god is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, eternal, presiding over life and death, and the creator of everything, it seems stupid to worship anything else that's not all of the above because only a being who fits those criteria can be worthy of worship and truly a "God", because if they aren't, what happens when something more powerful than that entity comes along? You keep running into the problem of "But then someone more powerful comes along" until you reach that roof of Abrahamic "God is supreme and absolutely in control of everything". In the Cosmere, that goes from Spren and Elantrians to Avatars to Shards to Adonalsium, where it hits the peak. yet Adonalsium died just like any other mortal, so he can't have been God because God shouldn't be killable. Enter the God Beyond, who could check all those boxes, except we have no proof of his existence.

Jasnah has seen that Shards can die, Vessel and all. They aren't eternal, they aren't the creators of everything, and they aren't omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. That means they aren't God. It's unclear whether she knows about Adonalsium, and he did create everything so far as we can tell, but he too died, nay, was killed by mortals, so he can't have been god either. The God Beyond could qualify, but Jasnah has no proof of his existence, so he's out too. What does that leave her with? The power of Shards means nothing when deciding if they're gods or not. Yes, some things have more power than humans. But power alone isn't the deciding factor. Jasnah has more power than a normal person. Is she a God? By some definitions, sure. But not by her standards.

If she acknowledges that Shards exist and have power, people who worship Shards will go "Ha! So you accept it! They are gods!", But that's not the case at all. She's just acknowledging that this being that they call God exists, not that the being actually is God. By their definition, the Shard is unquestionably God, so acknowledging that they exist is also formally acknowledging that God exists and thus the fact that you are not an atheist, even if you don't worship them. But Jasnah's requirements for something to be God are higher than what a Shard can qualify for, and she doesn't consider them to be God, so is still an atheist by her own definition and that of people who share her requirements. Yes, she isn't an atheist by the Shard-worshippers standard, but when discussing the atheism of someone else, does their opinion matter?

No, not it does not. By calling Hoid a god, she is acknowledging that other people worship him as such, not an admittance that she considers him to be one.

  You are not thinking this thing through.

 

If someone worship rocks They Imply that the rocks have will and have power and authority.   That is the definition of a god in most religions. 

If an actual atheist says he doesn't believe In the rock god He is saying that he doesn't Believe in their will authority and power.

Jasnah  knows the shards have will,  Authority and power. 

 She's not making the same challenge That the atheist makes to the rock God, It's more akin to the challenge that the Christians were Jews Make to pagans. ( Still not quite the same but closer)

 

 The shinvar worship rocks because the rocks are roshar actually alive and do have power.Making them a god in most religions. 

 I simply use the definition of a god exist in most world religions. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

  You are not thinking this thing through.

 

If someone worship rocks They Imply that the rocks have will and have power and authority.   That is the definition of a god in most religions. 

If an actual atheist says he doesn't believe In the rock god He is saying that he doesn't Believe in their will authority and power.

Jasnah  knows the shards have will,  Authority and power. 

 She's not making the same challenge That the atheist makes to the rock God, It's more akin to the challenge that the Christians were Jews Make to pagans. ( Still not quite the same but closer)

 

 The shinvar worship rocks because the rocks are roshar actually alive and do have power.Making them a god in most religions. 

 I simply use the definition of a god exist in most world religions. 

Rocks on Roshar aren't any more alive and powerful than anything else on Roshar, like trees or metal.

I don't quite get what you mean about the Christian, Jews, and Pagans thing.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. I suggest YOU look up the etymology, Both Christians and Jews were referred to as atheist. 

So they were, but that is not the source of the word or original meaning as you said, so my point still stands.

And they were called atheists because they did not believe in other gods than Abrahamic god, and hence refused to make sacrifices for them. Since you know, christianity and judaism are both monotheistic, unlike Greek and Roman pantheons.

So the meaning is still related to belief in existence of gods.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  By your own omission she knows honor exist so she's not doubting the existence of the gods. She might be denying their divinity but that's not the same thing.

How does denying their divinity not make her an atheist?

Acknowledging powerful being exists is not the same thing as considering them a god.
Shards are not gods. Some might consider them such, but they are not.

And if she is denying their divinity, then she is an atheist because " atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist " , and that is exactly what she is rejecting.

She is acknowledging powerful beings exists, but she does not consider them divine.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

  Except for not having Faith in a god is not what an atheist is.   An atheist is someone who disbelieves in the existence of God.

Exactly, and Jasnah does not believe in existence of god or gods.
Hence she is Atheist.
Just because you consider Shards to be gods does not make them such.

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

If an actual atheist says he doesn't believe In the rock god He is saying that he doesn't Believe in their will authority and power.

Jasnah  knows the shards have will,  Authority and power.

No, Jasnah knows Shards have will and power.
Authority, she does not grant them.

And having will, power and authority are not criteria to be a god, otherwise any king or noble could claim to be one.

By your reasoning, humans are gods to ants (if ants could conceive of such), which is obviously wrong statement.

Edited August 7, 2023 by therunner

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Quote

Yet when Jasnah had been honest about what she feared, what she believed, what she discovered… well, condemnation and judgement had chased her like twin headsmen, each looking to get a whipping in before the final execution. She’d barely stayed ahead of them. Because when Jasnah Kholin spoke her mind, people hated her. 

This feels like Brandon calling out the fan response to Jasnah a little. For a character with comparatively very little screentime, there is quite a lot of spirited discussion on her morality and her atheism when Jasnah really isn't that complicated of a character.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

  Except for not having Faith in a god is not what an atheist is.   An atheist is someone who disbelieves in the existence of God. 

That's my point if that's what you're saying Jasnah is and she is by definition not atheist. 

But Shards aren't gods... Adonalsium wasn't the God. That's the whole point of this disagreement. That's what Jasnah thinks. Accepting their existence is nothing more than accepting the existence of moons, sun or tides. This is just natural, not divine. Shards aren't gods. Are you a Moon's god worshiper just because you believe the Moon exists? 

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

On 7/31/2023 at 6:34 AM, Marabout said:

 

I think that the reason he used several forms of Investiture but didn’t necessarily do anything with them isn’t because he was agitated but rather that he was taking inventory to make sure all of them still worked.  He knew his memory had been altered and wanted to make sure none of his other abilities had been tampered with.

 

If he was doing this, why would he only use a few of his powers.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

17 minutes ago, WitIsThe Best said:

If he was doing this, why would he only use a few of his powers.

Could it be that those are the only ones he has, so far?

[Firesong she/her]

40 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Could it be that those are the only ones he has, so far?

It could be, but it could also just be due to other Invested Arts not being as noticeable to Jasnah at the moment.

4 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

This feels like Brandon calling out the fan response to Jasnah a little. For a character with comparatively very little screentime, there is quite a lot of spirited discussion on her morality and her atheism when Jasnah really isn't that complicated of a character.

And I don't get this interpretation at all, it is very simple, it is about how when she speaks her mind about what she believes and holds to be true, she becomes discriminated against and feared by people who deem her a heretic. I feel you are trying a bit too hard to find a meta-explanation, when the actually in-work meaning is far more obvious and reasonable, and has been shown many times before. 

Brandon talks about how he doesn't really want the cosmere to be meta, he only really got Meta in Tress and SP3 due to the fact that those were stories that were told to an in-world audience, so it had an in-world explanation. 

And also, I do feel that she is a rather complicated character, we have a lot of hints towards her deeper psychology through the books, and she is planned to be one of the major characters throughout Books 6-10 (iirc, Brandon said probably the most major character). So she definitely does have a lot of depth. He is just keeping her inner-world very secretive at the moment, mostly giving implications and ideas of how her mind works. I personally find her fascinating as a character. 

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

31 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I feel you are trying a bit too hard to find a meta-explanation, when the actually in-work meaning is far more obvious and reasonable, and has been shown many times before. 

I think it can easily be both the fan response and in-world response since they are caused by very similar things.

34 minutes ago, Firesong said:

And also, I do feel that she is a rather complicated character, we have a lot of hints towards her deeper psychology through the books, and she is planned to be one of the major characters throughout Books 6-10 (iirc, Brandon said probably the most major character). So she definitely does have a lot of depth

What I meant was that a lot of Jasnah can be covered with utilitarianism, atheism, her intelligence. The character, to me atleast, is deceptively simple and the only reason for confusion is the controversial beliefs she has for fans and characters alike. She is literally a utilitarian in a world where the god is Honor and the main villain is a utilitarian. She is an atheist in a medieval world seemingly filled with gods, which is very confusing to more religious people. The context makes it confusing, but she herself isn't. You don't need to know the entire past of a character to understand them. Like nothing in this reading has really surprised me about the character you know? Just because she is a main character doesn't mean that she is automatically complicated. Kaladin Shallan Dalinar Adolin Venli Lift aren't very complicated characters right?

 

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

It could be, but it could also just be due to other Invested Arts not being as noticeable to Jasnah at the moment.

Yes I think that this is more likely. She probably doesn’t notice everything going on and can’t keep track of it.

[Firesong she/her]

34 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I think it can easily be both the fan response and in-world response since they are caused by very similar things.

What I meant was that a lot of Jasnah can be covered with utilitarianism, atheism, her intelligence. The character, to me atleast, is deceptively simple and the only reason for confusion is the controversial beliefs she has for fans and characters alike. She is literally a utilitarian in a world where the god is Honor and the main villain is a utilitarian. She is an atheist in a medieval world seemingly filled with gods, which is very confusing to more religious people. The context makes it confusing, but she herself isn't. You don't need to know the entire past of a character to understand them. Like nothing in this reading has really surprised me about the character you know? Just because she is a main character doesn't mean that she is automatically complicated. Kaladin Shallan Dalinar Adolin Venli Lift aren't very complicated characters right?

 

Lol, they are all rather complicated. Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and Adolin are all very facinating to look at how many layers of complexity they have and how interwoven the different aspects of their worldview are with their life experiences and other beliefs. I am not sure what you been by calling them not complicated. Unless you refuse to look past the most surface level. All I can go for hours about all their intricacies. 

Like, I have a 1000 word thing written on Dalinar's personality alone (heavily condensed, btw), and I am still not done with it. 

(Sorry for snapping back like that, it is just the complexity of the main cast in Stormlight is one of my favorite things about it that keeps me coming back. I feel so much attachment to the characters as they are rather complex and multidimensional)

Edited August 7, 2023 by Firesong

[Rorzikel]

I view Jasnah's atheism as very similar to how someone in the DC comics universe could acknowledge Superman's existence and high level of superhuman ability (that depending on the iteration can match or surpass many irl cultures' deities) but still not think that Clark is a god or that he should be worshipped.