New Stormlight 5 Preview Reading from Brandon - Tampa Bay Comic Con

[Firesong she/her]

Jasnah's form of atheism is rejecting that there is a God. She fully accepts that god-like beings exist, just not an omnipotent God of everything. She also likely wouldn't worship it if one did turn out to exist. This comes from a WoB, but it is also supported in-work by her not trying to be like "nope, Odium is not real, lalalalalala". She is a scholar, she looks at what evidence she can find and comes to conclusions from that, and her conclusion is, Hoid is something more than a human. 

And also, as Nameless said, could just be hyperbole. 

[boolamoo]

I think, on the subject of Wit's frenzy of powers, it's completely on purpose. Investiture requires Intent so I don't think he could've accidentally done all of that.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

5 hours ago, boolamoo said:

I think, on the subject of Wit's frenzy of powers, it's completely on purpose. Investiture requires Intent so I don't think he could've accidentally done all of that.

True, but at least for Allomancy, conscious Intent isn't required. Vin uses Allomancy long before she knows what Allomancy is. Just panicking can be enough to trigger at least Allomancy, because your body's drive to survive is enough of an Intent, which can be triggered in an emotional episode.

That's why we're not sure. It's not really touched upon before if any other magic systems can be affected this way.

[Firesong she/her]

I am also of the opinion that it was intentional as he was clearly using various forms on purpose, like the sand and such. So I feel that if a few were totally intentional, they we can safely assume they all were. We could totally be proven wrong, I just think it was intentional. (even if he was absolutely losing his **** over it)

[Isilel]

I really don't like how Jasnah is with Hoid, she appears dumbed down, trying to wheedle information out of him rather than figuring things out like she used to back in WoK. Also, she is letting him push her into things that she doesn't necessarily want. 

I was flabbergasted when after her return from her adventure in Shadesmar it was explained in OB that all the new information she had was what Hoid told her when they met upon her return. Like, did she sleepwalk through her sojourn there, despite allegedly causing quite a ruckus? And she hasn't been her earlier brainiac self - which I loved, since. Sigh. 

[Firesong she/her]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

I really don't like how Jasnah is with Hoid, she appears dumbed down, trying to wheedle information out of him rather than figuring things out like she used to back in WoK. Also, she is letting him push her into things that she doesn't necessarily want. 

I was flabbergasted when after her return from her adventure in Shadesmar it was explained in OB that all the new information she had was what Hoid told her when they met upon her return. Like, did she sleepwalk through her sojourn there, despite allegedly causing quite a ruckus? And she hasn't been her earlier brainiac self - which I loved, since. Sigh. 

I am confused on your interpretation. She still seems very intelligent and is trying to learn more and find the truth. I didn't really notice much of a change. 

And a lot of the information she is trying to get out of Hoid is stuff she couldn't have learned naturally. She doesn't have any resources that would let her properly learn about other planets as the Shattering and etc without somebody else telling her. She has been able to deduce a lot of different parts through her own intellect, but not a lot of the more specific things. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Firesong

[bmcclure7]

On 8/1/2023 at 1:42 PM, Firesong said:

Jasnah's form of atheism is rejecting that there is a God. She fully accepts that god-like beings exist, just not an omnipotent God of everything. She also likely wouldn't worship it if one did turn out to exist. This comes from a WoB, but it is also supported in-work by her not trying to be like "nope, Odium is not real, lalalalalala". She is a scholar, she looks at what evidence she can find and comes to conclusions from that, and her conclusion is, Hoid is something more than a human. 

And also, as Nameless said, could just be hyperbole. 

So she is not an atheist then. 

[NameIess]

22 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

So she is not an atheist then. 

She accepts that beings of great power exists, so she’s an atheist? I don’t want to argue this, but I’ll say this much. If I was in the Cosmere, I would not believe that the Shards were gods. I wouldn’t be an atheist either, but I wouldn’t accept any of them as gods. I would also probably refer to them as gods from time to time. Does that make me a Shardist? Not in my opinion.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Nameless* said:

She accepts that beings of great power exists, so she’s an atheist? I don’t want to argue this, but I’ll say this much. If I was in the Cosmere, I would not believe that the Shards were gods. I wouldn’t be an atheist either, but I wouldn’t accept any of them as gods. I would also probably refer to them as gods from time to time. Does that make me a Shardist? Not in my opinion.

Non shardist. Good turm. Makes sense, another way of looking at is using the original definition of atheist mean he who doesn't give sacrifices to the gods.

As for me if I was transported there a probably wouldn't worship the shards . However if was born there I would most certainly. Only reason that I can think not to would be if I worship adulnosium. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by bmcclure7

[NameIess]

10 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Non shardist. Good turm. Makes sense, another way of looking at is using the original definition of atheist mean he who doesn't give sacrifices to the gods.

As for me if I was transported there a probably wouldn't worship the shards . However if was born there I would most certainly. Only reason that I can think not to would be if I worship adulnosium. 

Yeah, I'd probably worship them if I was born there, although if I knew as much as Jasnah does, I definitely wouldn't.

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Nameless* said:

Yeah, I'd probably worship them if I was born there, although if I knew as much as Jasnah does, I definitely wouldn't.

I really don't get their point, as she still doesn't believe in any true gods. Just beings with greater-than-human power, which is objectively true in the cosmere. To reject that (knowing what she does) is to just be delusional. She also does not see the Shards as worthy of worship, further cementing that she does not truly think of them as gods in the traditional sense. 

She was definitely using the term hyperbolically. 

I feel bmcclure is arguing in bad faith, honestly. Like, atheism would take on a very different meaning in a world such as the cosmere than it would in our own world. As there are greater powers, what matters is how you think of and conceptualize these powers and interact with them. The way Jasnah interacts with them is:

1. She accepts that they exist due to there existing undeniable proof of their existence. She does not reject this proof as her atheism is based around her observations of reality, she is a scholar that wants to find the truth, not one who blatantly rejects reality to justify their own worldview. 
2. She does not think of them as worthy of worship 
3. Under most definitions, this makes her see them as not truly being gods. There are of course exceptions with evil gods, or the Itelmen faith, but for the most part, gods are defined by worship. Something she refuses to give as she does not think they are worthy of it. 
4. She still rejects ideas of organized religion. She feels that they entities they worship do not actually exist, and are just misunderstandings of non-god entities. 
5. She continues to reject the idea of a capital-G God that controls reality and exists beyond it. As she has not found evidence of this.  

Therefore, she is an atheist. The world she lives in simply forced her to reconceptualize the exact manner in which it manifested, without completely compromising her ideals. It manifests as a mere acknowledgement that  beings beyond humanity exist, but not that gods or God exist. 

Basically, it is more complicated that just "she thinks Shard exist? She isn't an atheist than." Ideals and worldview are very complicated things. 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

I really don't get their point, as she still doesn't believe in any true gods. Just beings with greater-than-human power, which is objectively true in the cosmere. To reject that (knowing what she does) is to just be delusional. She also does not see the Shards as worthy of worship, further cementing that she does not truly think of them as gods in the traditional sense. 

She was definitely using the term hyperbolically. 

I feel bmcclure is arguing in bad faith, honestly. Like, atheism would take on a very different meaning in a world such as the cosmere than it would in our own world. As there are greater powers, what matters is how you think of and conceptualize these powers and interact with them. The way Jasnah interacts with them is:

1. She accepts that they exist due to there existing undeniable proof of their existence. She does not reject this proof as her atheism is based around her observations of reality, she is a scholar that wants to find the truth, not one who blatantly rejects reality to justify their own worldview. 
2. She does not think of them as worthy of worship 
3. Under most definitions, this makes her see them as not truly being gods. There are of course exceptions with evil gods, or the Itelmen faith, but for the most part, gods are defined by worship. Something she refuses to give as she does not think they are worthy of it. 
4. She still rejects ideas of organized religion. She feels that they entities they worship do not actually exist, and are just misunderstandings of non-god entities. 
5. She continues to reject the idea of a capital-G God that controls reality and exists beyond it. As she has not found evidence of this.  

Therefore, she is an atheist. The world she lives in simply forced her to reconceptualize the exact manner in which it manifested, without completely compromising her ideals. It manifests as a mere acknowledgement that  beings beyond humanity exist, but not that gods or God exist. 

Basically, it is more complicated that just "she thinks Shard exist? She isn't an atheist than." Ideals and worldview are very complicated things. 

I fully agree. For her Shards can't be gods as Honor was killed, Adonalsium can't be a god as he was killed as well. She doesn't have any proof for a God to exist and rejects the idea of Shards being them as they are more like forces of nature like wind or waves - a natural part of the world. They aren't worth worshipping. She accepts the idea of being with greater powers existing as there is irrefutable proof for that, accepts that people do worship those beings, but she refuses to accept them as gods, which is logical for her. I see no problem with her calling Hoid "a god" as she simply acknowledges that he is on this power level above mortals, so high that others can even worship him (and Horneaters do worship him). Even Hoid doesn't acknowledge Shards as gods (WoR epilogue).

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, Nameless* said:

Yeah, I'd probably worship them if I was born there, although if I knew as much as Jasnah does, I definitely wouldn't.

I don't see why, personally knowing more would make you more likely to worship them. 

Then again I could see someone learning about Adonalsium and dicing to worship him exclusively because he made the universe.  So maybe you're right. 

I could be wrong don't the threnidites still worship him?

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I fully agree. For her Shards can't be gods as Honor was killed, Adonalsium can't be a god as he was killed as well. She doesn't have any proof for a God to exist and rejects the idea of Shards being them as they are more like forces of nature like wind or waves - a natural part of the world. They aren't worth worshipping. She accepts the idea of being with greater powers existing as there is irrefutable proof for that, accepts that people do worship those beings, but she refuses to accept them as gods, which is logical for her. I see no problem with her calling Hoid "a god" as she simply acknowledges that he is on this power level above mortals, so high that others can even worship him (and Horneaters do worship him). Even Hoid doesn't acknowledge Shards as gods (WoR epilogue).

 You're thinking too much like an Abrahamic.  In most religions gods can and are killed. Being killed does not exclude someone From godhood. At least in most religions. 

 Niether there does been a natural part of nature exclude someone from godhood.   There are literally whole religions that worship nature. 

 However I can see why you and Jasna have this pov since vorinism seems to have something closer to our definition of divinity. 

[bmcclure7]

8 hours ago, Firesong said:

I really don't get their point, as she still doesn't believe in any true gods. Just beings with greater-than-human power, which is objectively true in the cosmere. To reject that (knowing what she does) is to just be delusional. She also does not see the Shards as worthy of worship, further cementing that she does not truly think of them as gods in the traditional sense. 

She was definitely using the term hyperbolically. 

I feel bmcclure is arguing in bad faith, honestly. Like, atheism would take on a very different meaning in a world such as the cosmere than it would in our own world. As there are greater powers, what matters is how you think of and conceptualize these powers and interact with them. The way Jasnah interacts with them is:

1. She accepts that they exist due to there existing undeniable proof of their existence. She does not reject this proof as her atheism is based around her observations of reality, she is a scholar that wants to find the truth, not one who blatantly rejects reality to justify their own worldview. 
2. She does not think of them as worthy of worship 
3. Under most definitions, this makes her see them as not truly being gods. There are of course exceptions with evil gods, or the Itelmen faith, but for the most part, gods are defined by worship. Something she refuses to give as she does not think they are worthy of it. 
4. She still rejects ideas of organized religion. She feels that they entities they worship do not actually exist, and are just misunderstandings of non-god entities. 
5. She continues to reject the idea of a capital-G God that controls reality and exists beyond it. As she has not found evidence of this.  

Therefore, she is an atheist. The world she lives in simply forced her to reconceptualize the exact manner in which it manifested, without completely compromising her ideals. It manifests as a mere acknowledgement that  beings beyond humanity exist, but not that gods or God exist. 

Basically, it is more complicated that just "she thinks Shard exist? She isn't an atheist than." Ideals and worldview are very complicated things. 

beings with greater-than-human power, and authority that requires  worship is pretty much the definition of gods in most religions.  You might as well have said she doesn't believe in gods just in gods. 

 All I'm saying is that she's not technically an atheist by are standard.

I suppose in a cosmere sense she might be an atheist and I admitted she is an atheist by the old-fashioned definition. Not arguing in the bad Faith.  

 

 Really I  Like the idea of  Calling her ashardic  As I do feel we need a  The new term that more closely  Describes her position. 

[Firesong she/her]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

beings with greater-than-human power, and authority that requires  worship is pretty much the definition of gods in most religions.  You might as well have said she doesn't believe in gods just in gods. 

 All I'm saying is that she's not technically an atheist by are standard.

I suppose in a cosmere sense she might be an atheist and I admitted she is an atheist by the old-fashioned definition. Not arguing in the bad Faith.  

 

 Really I  Like the idea of  Calling her ashardic  As I do feel we need a  The new term that more closely  Describes her position. 

She doesn't think they deserve or require worship, though. She just admits that they have more power than a human, as that is objectively true in the cosmere. But she rejects that they are true divinities, and rejects that they are deserving of worship. So I still feel it is still accurate to call her an atheist. 

I feel you are just projecting how you feel about Shards onto her. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Firesong

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I don't see why, personally knowing more would make you more likely to worship them. 

Then again I could see someone learning about Adonalsium and dicing to worship him exclusively because he made the universe.  So maybe you're right. 

I could be wrong don't the threnidites still worship him?

I wouldn’t worship the Shards because they have no power over the afterlife and are also just people with great power. Adonalsium might have been closer to divinity, but I don’t believe we know whether Adonalsium made the universe or not, and I think it’s implied that he didn’t, considering the limited scope of his power. In any case, he still doesn’t have power over the Beyond, so I wouldn’t worship him.

[bmcclure7]

3 minutes ago, Firesong said:

She doesn't think they deserve or require worship, though. She just admits that they have more power than a human, as that is objectively true in the cosmere. But she rejects that they are true divinities, and rejects that they are deserving of worship. So I still feel it is still accurate to call her an atheist. 

I feel you are just projecting how you feel about Shards onto her. 

a·the·ism

/ˈāTHēˌiz(ə)m/

 

noun

1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    

    

    Obviously This definition cannot apply to Jasna.  By her own words and your own words she acknowledges that the gods exist. 

    

    She however refuses to worship them. This is not the atheist position, so a new term such as Ashardic  is more appropriate.

    

    

    What exactly do you think I am projecting anything? 

   6 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

   I wouldn’t worship the Shards because they have no power over the afterlife and are also just people with great power. Adonalsium might have been closer to divinity, but I don’t believe we know whether Adonalsium made the universe or not, and I think it’s implied that he didn’t, considering the limited scope of his power. In any case, he still doesn’t have power over the Beyond, so I wouldn’t worship him.

    I'm pretty sure dawn shards stated very clearly that he created the universe. 

    

   I understand that point of view and even agree but I don't think That's someone born in the world Would have that point of view. 

   This point of view comes heavily from Christianity. In a world where it did not exist there's no reason to assume people would have this point of view of divinity. 

    I would point out That few gods Both in the cosmere or in our own religions have anything to do with the After life.  And some religions don't even have anything to say on the afterlife (see first temple Judaism). 

[Firesong she/her]

So you are even ignoring what I am saying, "she doesn't think of them as gods" is what I said. We only have seen her use the term once, in a way that is most likely hyperbole given everything else we see of her worldview. 

Also, dictionary definitions do not work when trying to describe the intricacies of ideology and worldview. Dictionaries serve more as a guideline, and must not be seen as absolute law, to do so is to fall into the fallacy of prescriptivism, which is an anti-linguistic viewpoint that rejects the observable reality of language. 

Ashardic makes less sense than Atheistic. As she believes in Shards, but not gods. 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Firesong

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Firesong said:

So you are even ignoring what I am saying, "she doesn't think of them as gods" is what I said. We only have seen her use the term once, in a way that is most likely hyperbole given everything else we see of her worldview. 

Also, dictionary definitions do not work when trying to describe the intricacies of ideology and worldview. Dictionaries serve more as a guideline, and must not be seen as absolute law, to do so is to fall into the fallacy of prescriptivism, which is an anti-linguistic viewpoint that rejects the observable reality of language. 

Ashardic makes less sense than Atheistic. As she believes in Shards, but not gods. 

 In greek adding at the beginning of a word change it's mean to without.  Amoral (without morality). So Ashardic would mean without a shard.  

If you dislike the turm then give me another one you would prefer.  

 

[Firesong she/her]

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 In greek adding at the beginning of a word change it's mean to without.  Amoral (without morality). So Ashardic would mean without a shard.  

If you dislike the turm then give me another one you would prefer.  

 

I know what it means, that is why I am saying it is incorrect. She does believe in Shards, she doesn't believe in gods. Ashardic is inaccurate as that implies she rejects the existence of Shards. 

Please, actually pay attention to what people are saying before you get on your high horse. 

I am getting tired of this conversation, anyway. Debate is not entertaining when the other side is not properly engaging. So さよなら and all that. Have a lovely day. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Firesong

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Firesong said:

I know what it means, that is why I am saying it is incorrect. She does believe in Shards, she doesn't believe in gods. Ashardic is inaccurate as that implies she rejects the existence of Shards. 

Please, actually pay attention to what people are saying before you get on your high horse. 

I am getting tired of this conversation, anyway. Debate is not entertaining when the other side is not properly engaging. So さよなら and all that. Have a lovely day. 

 I wasnt aware we were debating anything.  

 You seem to missunderstand.  Without something isn't necessarily a rejection of it. Remember that the original word atheist meant someone who doesn't make sacrifice of the gods. Is nothing to do with belief. 

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

a·the·ism

/ˈāTHēˌiz(ə)m/

noun

1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    

    Obviously This definition cannot apply to Jasna.  By her own words and your own words she acknowledges that the gods exist.

That dictionary meaning is an oversimplification of the word 'atheism' (and not the only one btw, valid interpretation is also e.g. the philosophical position stating that there is no supreme being or beings.  )

Atheism is rather broad, and is simply rejection of existence of deities ('gods'). Deity is a supernatural being that is considered sacred.

Jasnah comfortably fits with that since:

1. She does not belief Shards (or Ado) are supernatural within context of Cosmere.
2. She does not consider Shards (or Ado) to be sacred.
3. More broadly, she generally believes that anything that is observerable can be explained. And that only observable things exist. So she does not belief in anything supernatural.

Hence, she does not consider Shards or any other such being 'god'. Nor does she belief in God Beyond or any other such superstitions.
She is as atheistic as they come.

The fact that she uses the word 'god' in colloquial conversation/thought (to denote being of great power) has no bearing on her philosophical stances.
Meeting an immortal who has powers and understanding far beyond you (and who is worshiped in some corners of your planet) you might sometimes think of him as a god in this colloquial sense, and yet logically understand that he is 'just' powerful.

I am an atheist, and I still use words like 'god' or 'godlike', they are just words.

Quote

 She however refuses to worship them. This is not the atheist position, so a new term such as Ashardic  is more appropriate.

Ashardic makes no sense as a term for her, she acknowledges existence of Shards, she just does not worship them (i.e. does not consider them deities).
That is one of the factors that makes her atheist.

24 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Remember that the original word atheist meant someone who doesn't make sacrifice of the gods. Is nothing to do with belief. 

No it does not mean that, It has everything to do with belief in existence of gods. Just look at the etymology and historical use

Quote

Atheism is derived from the Ancient Greek ἄθεος atheos meaning "without gods; godless; secular; refuting or repudiating the existence of gods, especially officially sanctioned gods

Jasnah is secular and is repudiating existance of gods. She is atheist.

Edited August 6, 2023 by therunner

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

beings with greater-than-human power, and authority that requires  worship is pretty much the definition of gods in most religions.  You might as well have said she doesn't believe in gods just in gods. 

 All I'm saying is that she's not technically an atheist by are standard.

I suppose in a cosmere sense she might be an atheist and I admitted she is an atheist by the old-fashioned definition. Not arguing in the bad Faith.  

 

 Really I  Like the idea of  Calling her ashardic  As I do feel we need a  The new term that more closely  Describes her position. 

You're banking too much on the liberal definition of god. If someone worships rocks (looking at you, Shinovar), then the rocks are gods to them. That does not mean that rocks are suddenly equivalent to a Shard, just because they're both things that people worship. It just means that in some people's opinion and perspective, rocks are deities. That does not make rocks objectively deities.

Jasnah is Vorin, and was raised worshipping the Almighty, who is much closer to the Abrahamic version of god. Once you're raised around the idea that god is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, eternal, presiding over life and death, and the creator of everything, it seems stupid to worship anything else that's not all of the above because only a being who fits those criteria can be worthy of worship and truly a "God", because if they aren't, what happens when something more powerful than that entity comes along? You keep running into the problem of "But then someone more powerful comes along" until you reach that roof of Abrahamic "God is supreme and absolutely in control of everything". In the Cosmere, that goes from Spren and Elantrians to Avatars to Shards to Adonalsium, where it hits the peak. yet Adonalsium died just like any other mortal, so he can't have been God because God shouldn't be killable. Enter the God Beyond, who could check all those boxes, except we have no proof of his existence.

Jasnah has seen that Shards can die, Vessel and all. They aren't eternal, they aren't the creators of everything, and they aren't omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. That means they aren't God. It's unclear whether she knows about Adonalsium, and he did create everything so far as we can tell, but he too died, nay, was killed by mortals, so he can't have been god either. The God Beyond could qualify, but Jasnah has no proof of his existence, so he's out too. What does that leave her with? The power of Shards means nothing when deciding if they're gods or not. Yes, some things have more power than humans. But power alone isn't the deciding factor. Jasnah has more power than a normal person. Is she a God? By some definitions, sure. But not by her standards.

If she acknowledges that Shards exist and have power, people who worship Shards will go "Ha! So you accept it! They are gods!", But that's not the case at all. She's just acknowledging that this being that they call God exists, not that the being actually is God. By their definition, the Shard is unquestionably God, so acknowledging that they exist is also formally acknowledging that God exists and thus the fact that you are not an atheist, even if you don't worship them. But Jasnah's requirements for something to be God are higher than what a Shard can qualify for, and she doesn't consider them to be God, so is still an atheist by her own definition and that of people who share her requirements. Yes, she isn't an atheist by the Shard-worshippers standard, but when discussing the atheism of someone else, does their opinion matter?

No, not it does not. By calling Hoid a god, she is acknowledging that other people worship him as such, not an admittance that she considers him to be one.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

I have nothing more to add as both @Firesong and @therunner explained my view on Jasnah and her atheism better than I ever could.

I don't know why you're so confused by it @bmcclure7. Just because she accepts that Shards exist, that beings like Hoid or Heralds exist, doesn't mean she has faith in them, that she believes religiously in them, or that she worships them. She refuses to accept that those beings are divine, that they are supernatural and that they are Gods. That's what makes her atheist. She thinks their greater power comes from natural sources, that it can be explained and measured, and we on this forum know that's true, as investiture in Cosmere is natural, it's just energy in a different state. Their powers come from Connections and Spirit Web. They aren't supernatural in Cosmere, they can be replicated and that makes them a simple science. Jasnah calling Hoid "a god" doesn't mean she believes in him, or she accepts him as a god, any more than it makes an atheist on Earth a Christian by saying "oh God".

While one can worship forces of nature as gods on Earth, it doesn't mean that acknowledging wind's existence makes you a believer in a wind deity. Those people assign divine attributes to natural phenomena, that's what makes them believers. Does Jasnah do that? No. She does the opposite. She takes divine attributes and divine beings and assigns them natural explanations. She refuses to accept that those beings are gods and worthy of being worshiped as for her they are just a part of nature, not divine at all. That's atheism.

Compare it to Dalinar's position. He similarly refuses to accept that Shards are gods, despite knowing they exist and they hold greater power, he refuses to accept that Adonalsium was a god, instead he believes that there must be another, true God, one that can't be killed, can't be seen, and exists in the Beyond. He's a believer not because he believes Shards exist, but because he believes there is a different divine being out there, who isn't Honor, nor Almighty, nor Cultivation or Odium.