Did Kelsier Know?

[Vissy]

Well hey, long time no posting here, but I just read The Lost Metal.

As a huge Kelsier fan, I am naturally obsessed about Kelsier again. I'm mostly wondering about the ending sequence... did Kelsier know that Sazed lied to him about lerasium?

If he did know, wouldn't it be pretty simple to put two and two together for him to figure out how to produce it?

And if so, aren't we pretty darn close to Kelsier potentially achieving a major breakthrough for his ambitions?

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Well hey, long time no posting here, but I just read The Lost Metal.

As a huge Kelsier fan, I am naturally obsessed about Kelsier again. I'm mostly wondering about the ending sequence... did Kelsier know that Sazed lied to him about lerasium?

If he did know, wouldn't it be pretty simple to put two and two together for him to figure out how to produce it?

And if so, aren't we pretty darn close to Kelsier potentially achieving a major breakthrough for his ambitions?

I don't think so. I think Sazed learned to lie and Kelsier believed him that Lerasium was fully destroyed in the explosion. There was no suspicion in Kel's mind, nothing like what was shown to us in SH, and for me that's a confirmation that Kel won't realize the truth anytime soon.

[Vissy]

I can't see Kelsier taking it well when he realizes that Sazed lied to him multiple times - especially because he didn't catch him in the lies. 

[Koloss17]

I’d bargain that he didn’t know in the moment, but as he kept tabs on Wax, as he certainly would, he would probably discover the deception. It would take a few years, but my suspicion is that in between the main TLM story and the Wax epilogue, he would have found out that Wax is more than he appeared, and that there was another background conversation between him and Sazed about the whole debacle. 
 

Additionally, while Marsh is great at keeping secrets, Kelsier will realize that his brother is looking much better after a few years, so this is a very short-lived secret.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

 

50 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Additionally, while Marsh is great at keeping secrets, Kelsier will realize that his brother is looking much better after a few years, so this is a very short-lived secret.

He knows that Atium is being produced, so wouldn't Marsh not give anything away?

[Letryx13]

I doubt he knew for certain, but he was probably suspicious.  He definitely knew Sazed was lying to him when he said that there wasn't a way for Kelsier to come back to "life" in SH.  So he knows that Sazed can be deceptive when he wants to be.   And don't forget Kel's infamous saying, there's always another secret.  Even if he does believe Sazed, he'll probably push to try and figure out how to produce Lerasium on his own.

What really interests me is what Kelsier will do if and when he figures out how to make Lerasium.  The words "MistBorn Army" come to mind.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

What really interests me is what Kelsier will do if and when he figures out how to make Lerasium.  The words "MistBorn Army" come to mind.

I don't think he will ever be able to produce Lerasium from splitting Harmonium with Trellium. I believe that intent is needed - not any intent, but a very precise one forcing people not to change or use products of reaction in any way - Wax had that intent, he realized that if he succeed it would change nothing about him, because he already held power of gods and didn't want to used them again. No one else had that intent. Moreover I think only one god metal can be produced in a single reaction, if you meet this intent of Preserving, you get Lerasium, if you don't, if you want to use products of reaction in any way, you get Atium. That’s why Set has never got Lerasium, that's why Kandra weren’t able to replicate Wax’s results because they wanted to use god metals for something, while Wax didn’t want to. This also guarantees that Kelsier will never be able to get Learsium this way, because he would always want to use it to change something, to spread Allomancy among Scadrians.

[Vissy]

8 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I doubt he knew for certain, but he was probably suspicious.  He definitely knew Sazed was lying to him when he said that there wasn't a way for Kelsier to come back to "life" in SH.  So he knows that Sazed can be deceptive when he wants to be.   And don't forget Kel's infamous saying, there's always another secret.  Even if he does believe Sazed, he'll probably push to try and figure out how to produce Lerasium on his own.

What really interests me is what Kelsier will do if and when he figures out how to make Lerasium.  The words "MistBorn Army" come to mind.

I'm curious when Kelsier will figure out how to give himself Allomantic powers again. I kind of felt bad for him because he misses his Allomancy a lot - it's a significant part of who he is! I think him getting that power back and displaying it is definitely a scene that can't be off-screened. With all of his powers, Kelsier is basically the third-most talented and accomplished Allomancer in Scadrial's history, behind Vin and the Lord Ruler.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Vissy

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think he will ever be able to produce Lerasium from splitting Harmonium with Trellium. I believe that intent is needed - not any intent, but a very precise one forcing people not to change or use products of reaction in any way - Wax had that intent, he realized that if he succeed it would change nothing about him, because he already held power of gods and didn't want to used them again. No one else had that intent. Moreover I think only one god metal can be produced in a single reaction, if you meet this intent of Preserving, you get Lerasium, if you don't, if you want to use products of reaction in any way, you get Atium. That’s why Set has never got Lerasium, that's why Kandra weren’t able to replicate Wax’s results because they wanted to use god metals for something, while Wax didn’t want to. This also guarantees that Kelsier will never be able to get Learsium this way, because he would always want to use it to change something, to spread Allomancy among Scadrians.

In this particular case, I'm not sure it's a matter of intent.  This seems much more about chemistry than anything else.  Granted, invenstiture is involved, so intent could be an issue, but I think it's much more likely that the resulting explosion simply makes it difficult to tell if any Lerasium and Atium are produced.  According to Sazed, only a small amount was produced in that explosion Waxilium caused, so it would be easy to overlook.  I'm don't think the Kandra are being completely honest about splitting Harmonium (or Sazium), but as for the Set, they weren't looking for Lerasium; they wanted a powerful explosive.  Wax's uncle mentioned wanting something like that in TBoM.  They needed something powerful enough to destroy an entire city.

2 hours ago, Vissy said:

I'm curious when Kelsier will figure out how to give himself Allomantic powers again. I kind of felt bad for him because he misses his Allomancy a lot - it's a significant part of who he is! I think him getting that power back and displaying it is definitely a scene that can't be off-screened. With all of his powers, Kelsier is basically the third-most talented and accomplished Allomancer in Scadrial's history, behind Vin and the Lord Ruler.

I don't think Rashek was all that skilled; he was just so powerful that it didn't matter.  And while it's almost certainly true that Kelsier would want Lerasium to get his allomancy back, assuming that would even work in his current state, there's no way he'd stop there.  Judging from his conversation with Sazed at the end of TLM, he's very worried about threats from other planets.  He'd probably either stockpile the Lerasium to make an army if needed or just start flat out building such an army himself.

[Vissy]

Kelsier vs. Sazed seems to be a theme that is increasingly becoming relevant now and in the future. I don't like everything I'm seeing from Discord!Sazed (hiding things from Kelsier isn't a good idea, in my opinion) and it seems to me like there might be some conflict between the two in Era 3. I mean, there already is - because Sazed is actively obstructing Kelsier. 

Of course, the sad thing for Kelsier in any such conflict would be that there's no Vin or Sazed or even a Breeze around anymore to tell him different. I really just want more Kelsier chapters and his own introspection. He was so deeply touched by Vin especially.

[Letryx13]

8 hours ago, Vissy said:

Kelsier vs. Sazed seems to be a theme that is increasingly becoming relevant now and in the future. I don't like everything I'm seeing from Discord!Sazed (hiding things from Kelsier isn't a good idea, in my opinion) and it seems to me like there might be some conflict between the two in Era 3. I mean, there already is - because Sazed is actively obstructing Kelsier. 

Of course, the sad thing for Kelsier in any such conflict would be that there's no Vin or Sazed or even a Breeze around anymore to tell him different. I really just want more Kelsier chapters and his own introspection. He was so deeply touched by Vin especially.

They’re the only two members of the original crew still “alive”, so it’s not surprising that they’d have friction between them. Which will be interesting if and when the church of the survivor and the Parthians ever start a holy war. Up until TLM, I was much more worried about Kelsier than Sazed, since Sazed seemed to have the shards under control and Kelsier’s subordinates are causing trouble on other worlds. But TLM seems to have reversed that impression, with Kelsier appearing more stable than Sazed. 
 

I still think Kelsier isn’t as benevolent as he tries to appear. In fact I think he’ll end up a full on villain at some point, but I’m increasingly worried that Discord will be the next big bad for the commerce. 
 

I wonder whether Kelsier ever figured out the answer to Vin’s last words to him. Well, her last question, anyway. 

[+Oltux72]

On 27.6.2023 at 4:40 PM, Vissy said:

As a huge Kelsier fan, I am naturally obsessed about Kelsier again. I'm mostly wondering about the ending sequence... did Kelsier know that Sazed lied to him about lerasium?

No, but it does not matter. Kelsier caught Sazed in a lie within weeks after his ascension. And Kelsier is not a trusting person in such questions. Sazed is no longer a member of the crew. A dear friend, yes, but not crew.

On 27.6.2023 at 4:40 PM, Vissy said:

And if so, aren't we pretty darn close to Kelsier potentially achieving a major breakthrough for his ambitions?

That depends on how easy it is to get Trellium and what other godmetals do.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

This also guarantees that Kelsier will never be able to get Learsium this way, because he would always want to use it to change something, to spread Allomancy among Scadrians.

Kelsier is perfectly capable of hiring or manipulating the most academic and theoretical of researchers to do the experiments.

On 28.6.2023 at 3:00 AM, Letryx13 said:

What really interests me is what Kelsier will do if and when he figures out how to make Lerasium.  The words "MistBorn Army" come to mind.

Where is the problem with that? Do you propose that Scadrians face Shades, Surgebinders or Fused with a few Mistings and rifles?

[Vissy]

I'm mostly just interested in Kelsier's personal journey - it seems to me that regaining his powers is actually a huge thing for him on a personal level, hugely important. It was such a significant part of his identity in his life, and without those powers he'll probably always feel like he is missing something. 

[therunner]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Kelsier is perfectly capable of hiring or manipulating the most academic and theoretical of researchers to do the experiments.

Manipulation could still count as Intent for this purpose, which would spoil the process.
Ruin manipulating people was enough to count as Intent for Hemalurgy, so the lines are kind of blurry.

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

I'm mostly just interested in Kelsier's personal journey - it seems to me that regaining his powers is actually a huge thing for him on a personal level, hugely important. It was such a significant part of his identity in his life, and without those powers he'll probably always feel like he is missing something. 

I agree, the character arcs and their journeys are the best part of stories.

Though it is interesting how strongly Kel defines himself with powers he had only for 2-3 years of his life. It is a minuscule fraction of his life by now.

Maybe part of it is how strongly others identify him as Kelsier 'The Survivor', and as CS he is also affected by it. But on personal level, it makes sense he misses it, flying through the night must have been beautiful freedom for him.

Edited June 29, 2023 by therunner

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Where is the problem with that? Do you propose that Scadrians face Shades, Surgebinders or Fused with a few Mistings and rifles?

That much power in potentially the wrong hands is a scary idea, it's what can lead to dictators and conquerers.  To answer Kelsier's comment in TLM, I suspect the reason that Preservation didn't want the entire population to have access to allomancy was to prevent Scadrial from being a threat to other worlds, or possibly their own people.  

I'm not sure about Shades, but I'd much rather Scadrians try to ally with SurgeBinders and Fused, the ones not allied with Odium, rather than face off against them. And considering advancements in technology on Scadrial, Scadrians could probably hold their own in large scale conflicts, if properly organized.

[+Oltux72]

20 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

That much power in potentially the wrong hands is a scary idea, it's what can lead to dictators and conquerers.  To answer Kelsier's comment in TLM, I suspect the reason that Preservation didn't want the entire population to have access to allomancy was to prevent Scadrial from being a threat to other worlds, or possibly their own people.  

I'm not sure about Shades, but I'd much rather Scadrians try to ally with SurgeBinders and Fused, the ones not allied with Odium, rather than face off against them. And considering advancements in technology on Scadrial, Scadrians could probably hold their own in large scale conflicts, if properly organized.

This leads me to an extremely generic reply. Arcane powers are antidemocratic. Harmony rules Scadrial. Why? There is no point in denial here: Because he can.

MIght is right in last consequence. Now you may argue that his shardic powers make him especially wise and prescient. While that is true, it is a bit beside the point. It tells us that he knows what he is doing. What he does with the knowledge is still his own affair. And that he chooses not to exercise these powers. But that is the very point. He chooses not to. He is accountable to no one. He is above the law.

Now to the humans on Scadrial that leaves them in a situation where they can face up and take a stand meaning that they'll secure as much power as possible for some of them. Or they can submit and leave the business of the Shards to the Shards and live with the outcome. What Kelsier will do is obvious. And will you really tell somebody who lived under The Lord Ruler that there is an alternative to that choice?

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This leads me to an extremely generic reply. Arcane powers are antidemocratic. Harmony rules Scadrial. Why? There is no point in denial here: Because he can.

MIght is right in last consequence. Now you may argue that his shardic powers make him especially wise and prescient. While that is true, it is a bit beside the point. It tells us that he knows what he is doing. What he does with the knowledge is still his own affair. And that he chooses not to exercise these powers. But that is the very point. He chooses not to. He is accountable to no one. He is above the law.

Now to the humans on Scadrial that leaves them in a situation where they can face up and take a stand meaning that they'll secure as much power as possible for some of them. Or they can submit and leave the business of the Shards to the Shards and live with the outcome. What Kelsier will do is obvious. And will you really tell somebody who lived under The Lord Ruler that there is an alternative to that choice?

Technically, Sazed became Emperor before he became Harmony, so he did have the right of rule by inheritance from Elend and Vin, but that's not important.  I don't even know that I consider him to be ruling Scadrial.  Yes, he influences things and has the kandra try to guide people, but he's not actively controlling things.  His religion expressly forbids worshipping him.  Yes, he's above the law, but how the heck do you set up a law system for beings that are beyond mortal understanding and control?  He helps guide and protect, but that's not always the same thing as a ruler.  And in his personal case, he has to be careful about influencing things too much.

As to your point about Scadrial accumulating power, I'm not saying they shouldn't try to progress, as that's pretty much always a good thing.  But too much power in the wrong hands never ends well.  And this is all assuming the Lerasium would be distributed fairly, without wealthy and powerful people trying to monopolize it.  Would you really tell someone who lived under The Lord Ruler that one ruler or group with unparalleled power is safe?  Kelsier attempting a MistBorn army is the obvious choice if he could, but what would result of that accumulated power?

I don't disagree with you, exactly.  It makes sense for Scadiral to try and advance themselves technologically and magically.  To paraphrase and anime I'm fond of; Foolish are those who wish for power in excess, but equally foolish are those who fear it for no reason.  I just think making the entire planet into MistBorn is too close the "excess" end of the spectrum.

[+Oltux72]

On 30.6.2023 at 2:35 PM, Letryx13 said:

Yes, he's above the law, but how the heck do you set up a law system for beings that are beyond mortal understanding and control?

You do not. Law is a creation of a community with the community gathering being safely stronger than any individual. Shards are not in that category. If you are human in the Cosmere you might (I would say should) conclude that as long as Shards are around, man can never be truly free. The goal arising from that is clear: Splinter them all

I suspect that may be Kelsier's goal during the end game of the Cosmere. Reuniters versus Splitters if you will.

On 30.6.2023 at 2:35 PM, Letryx13 said:

As to your point about Scadrial accumulating power, I'm not saying they shouldn't try to progress, as that's pretty much always a good thing.  But too much power in the wrong hands never ends well.  And this is all assuming the Lerasium would be distributed fairly, without wealthy and powerful people trying to monopolize it.  Would you really tell someone who lived under The Lord Ruler that one ruler or group with unparalleled power is safe?  Kelsier attempting a MistBorn army is the obvious choice if he could, but what would result of that accumulated power?

The power exists. Weakness is slavery and death. That is the one lesson everybody living (well technically dieing in his case) in the Final Empire understands. Lack of information dooms you. Kelsier subjected Scadrial to learning that the hard way.

Now, this is just my personal opinion, so keep that in mind, but Kelsier is not a democrat. That in fact is more than personal opinion. The way he runs the Ghostbloods and builds shadow governments pretty much shows that. But what is he? Also quite obviously he hated the aristocracy. But does that mean he hates the powerful? And here we start into shaky territory. There are two kinds (at least) of power. The membership in a class with inherited wealth and legal priviledge. And personal strength through Invested Arts. Essentially, let's be clear, the power to kill in combat. I think Kelsier absolutely detests the former, but he is fine with the latter. He is a product of his time. He would be fine with a council of Mistborn ruling, even if they are a tiny minority, as long as the members are really mistborn. Kelsier has no problem with inequality. He is triggered by inherited inequality.

And he has some justification for his views. The way Invested Arts work, some people will always be more powerful in them than others. Vastly more powerful.
(Nalthis)
 

Spoiler

Enough Breaths make you immortal.

One way to avoid that is to tone down the power level. That, however, is inacceptable. Weakness is death. Kelsier is ready (well, some would say enough of a sociopath) to think this through and accept the consequences. Look at the Catacendre and tell him that he is wrong. Can you?

[Vissy]

I think Kelsier's viewpoint makes the most sense from a human perspective, ironically considering he's a Cognitive Shadow now. (Though who knows if he'll get his body back in the future!). I just hope there will be some deep Kelsier content in the future of Cosmere books - from his own viewpoint. 

[Duxredux]

I think there's a very strong parallel between the end of TLM and the end of SH, which kind of implies that Kelsier is remembering the last time Sazed blantantly lied to him - on whether or not he could get a body again. I could see Wax after retiring from being a sword taking great care to not reveal that he became a Mistborn as that is an advantage best kept secret until needed, but Wax does his own thing, and he may avoid even burning metals other than steel lest a Seeker sense him. I wouldn't count on Kelsier learning about Lerasium from him, but I think Kelsier may already know.

The problem is that splitting Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium is a horribly inefficient way to get either of those metals as some of the Investiture itself is converted to energy. It's why those Harmonium-Trellium bombs were so powerful. Yes, making Lerasium again is again possible and has important implications, but with Bavadinium not native to Scadrial it won't work for democratizing Metalborn powers. Birthrates would far exceed production rates and it would be extremely expensive to setup the equipment and generator necessary to create the reaction - only for it to be blown up each time. This discovery is not enough to accomplish Kelsier's larger goal of more equitable distribution of powers, but it would probably be enough to tempt him to experiment until he could regain his own powers and enhance the Ghostbloods, larger stated goals notwithstanding.

Another possibility is that Lerasium incorporated into the soul of a person stays in that person and their descendants and does not cycle back to Harmony nearly as readily as burned Atium does. It seems like the two times Lerasium is taken or used in SH (which is barely enough points to extrapolate anything), Leras's form lost a noticeable amount of substance. In essence, it seems possible that separating out Lerasium and Atium and then burning Lerasium to strengthen one's own lineage would increase the imbalance between Ruin and Preservation that was introduced when Preservation first put more of his substance into the creation of humanity. Siphoning off the Atium and storing it somewhere like the Trustwarren to try to maintain balance is possible but introduces its own set of terrible risks as Atium is fantastic for stealing powers.

Wax becoming a very weak Mistborn may be setup for the first naturally born Mistborn coming from his descendants if he and Steris have any more children (not the main line, Max will likely inherit). Reintroducing Lerasium into the genepool of Scadrial may have far reaching consequences that Kelsier may not yet grasp, as I certainly don't yet, but it has far more implications than distribution of metalborn powers. I don't necessarily think that it's a good idea for Sazed to be hiding as much as he is, but I think I can see reasons for why he is doing what he is doing. It will probably cost him in the long run.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Duxredux
wrong planet name

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You do not. Law is a creation of a community with the community gathering being safely stronger than any individual. Shards are not in that category. If you are human in the Cosmere you might (I would say should) conclude that as long as Shards are around, man can never be truly free. The goal arising from that is clear: Splinter them all

I suspect that may be Kelsier's goal during the end game of the Cosmere. Reuniters versus Splitters if you will.

That would be an interesting direction, and not a bad basis for the end game.  My only issue is that damaging the Shards seems to have a negative effect on the world they're attached to. Threnody is a pretty good example of that.  

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The power exists. Weakness is slavery and death. That is the one lesson everybody living (well technically dieing in his case) in the Final Empire understands. Lack of information dooms you. Kelsier subjected Scadrial to learning that the hard way.

Now, this is just my personal opinion, so keep that in mind, but Kelsier is not a democrat. That in fact is more than personal opinion. The way he runs the Ghostbloods and builds shadow governments pretty much shows that. But what is he? Also quite obviously he hated the aristocracy. But does that mean he hates the powerful? And here we start into shaky territory. There are two kinds (at least) of power. The membership in a class with inherited wealth and legal priviledge. And personal strength through Invested Arts. Essentially, let's be clear, the power to kill in combat. I think Kelsier absolutely detests the former, but he is fine with the latter. He is a product of his time. He would be fine with a council of Mistborn ruling, even if they are a tiny minority, as long as the members are really mistborn. Kelsier has no problem with inequality. He is triggered by inherited inequality.

There's the rub.  Kelsier has always had a problem realizing his shortcomings.  Vin pointed out to him that he was basically a nobleman without a title, and she wasn't wrong. While it's true that he may not like inherited inequality, he didn't hesitate to take advantage of people and push people around when he was MistBorn, which is the combat power you mentioned.  But the truth is, that there's not a lot of difference between the two. They're both forms of power.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And he has some justification for his views. The way Invested Arts work, some people will always be more powerful in them than others. Vastly more powerful.
(Nalthis)
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Enough Breaths make you immortal.

One way to avoid that is to tone down the power level. That, however, is inacceptable. Weakness is death. Kelsier is ready (well, some would say enough of a sociopath) to think this through and accept the consequences. Look at the Catacendre and tell him that he is wrong. Can you?

The problem with that is there will always be people who have more power than others.  Even without investiture, how much power does a beggar have compared to a king?  To quote a certain Azish Bridgeman, no matter where you go, you'll always find people who abuse their power.  The case on Nalthis is just a perfect example of the power of wealth.

On top of that, his methods have severe limitations.  The main reason Luthadel didn't burn itself to the ground after Kelsier triggered a rebellion was because of Elend.  Granted, nothing short of the kind of drastic measures Kelsier took would have been enough to get the Skaa to rebel, but that still left no small amount of chaos in the city.  If Elend hadn't managed to take control of the situation, the Skaa rebels would probably have ended up destroying themselves.  Spook, who practically worshipped Kelsier when he was still alive, even recognized this to be true when he went to Orteau.  Yes, Ruin was influencing things in that city, but Kelsier was the one that preached hatred and destruction of the nobility.  

And as far as Kelsier being willing to accept the consequences, I'm not sure he really does.  He didn't seem to think through the consequences of his actions a great deal in TFE.  He took Vin into Kredik Shaw, convinced Yeden's army they were more powerful than they were, and started a rebellion that he didn't realize the full danger of. 

I'm not sure what you mean about the Catacendre.  

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I think there's a very strong parallel between the end of TLM and the end of SH, which kind of implies that Kelsier is remembering the last time Sazed blantantly lied to him - on whether or not he could get a body again.

There is a parallel there, but it isn't about Kelsier but it's about Sazed. In my opinion it shows us how Sazed has learned to lie so well that even Kelsier hasn't realized it, and we don't know what Sazed told that wasn't true.

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

The problem is that splitting Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium is a horribly inefficient way to get either of those metals as some of the Investiture itself is converted to energy. It's why those Harmonium-Trellium bombs were so powerful. Yes, making Lerasium again is again possible and has important implications, but with Bavadinium not native to Scadrial it won't work for democratizing Metalborn powers. Birthrates would far exceed production rates and it would be extremely expensive to setup the equipment and generator necessary to create the reaction - only for it to be blown up each time. This discovery is not enough to accomplish Kelsier's larger goal of more equitable distribution of powers, but it would probably be enough to tempt him to experiment until he could regain his own powers and enhance the Ghostbloods, larger stated goals notwithstanding.

I bet there is a way to make the Harmonium-Trellium fission process more controllable - just like Uranium fission went from making bombs first, then commercial nuclear reactors. That would solve the problem of lots of energy being lost as it would be released at a far slower rate and be used to create electricity, and very likely more Atium or Lerasium would be produced in such reactor.

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Another possibility is that Lerasium incorporated into the soul of a person stays in that person and their descendants and does not cycle back to Harmony nearly as readily as burned Atium does. It seems like the two times Lerasium is taken or used in SH (which is barely enough points to extrapolate anything), Leras's form lost a noticeable amount of substance. In essence, it seems possible that separating out Lerasium and Atium and then burning Lerasium to strengthen one's own lineage would increase the imbalance between Ruin and Preservation that was introduced when Preservation first put more of his substance into the creation of humanity. Siphoning off the Atium and storing it somewhere like the Trustwarren to try to maintain balance is possible but introduces its own set of terrible risks as Atium is fantastic for stealing powers.

It shouldn't work like that. Harmonium is already a combination of Ruin and Preservation's investiture, taking away just one part changes nothing. There is likely a similar cycle of Harmonium like Atium in era 1 - this investiture is permanently separated from Shard in a cycle of making new Harmonium. Just taking away Atium and storing it away would mean less Harmonium would get made - until you store so much Atium that you would stop the cycle completely. It shouldn't contribute to Harmony's imbalance, because just making Harmonium is already doing so. As soon as a bead of god metal gets burnt, investiture returns to the cycle, but it's possible Lerasium's investiture would get stuck in person's spirit web and won't quickly return to the cycle - but this shouldn't imbalance Harmony any more, as Ruin's investiture would wait for Preservation's to continue this cycle, just like destruction of the Pits of Hathsin didn't immediately case all investiture from burnt Atium go straight back to Ruin, this investiture remained bind to the cycle.

4 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Wax becoming a very weak Mistborn may be setup for the first naturally born Mistborn coming from his descendants if he and Steris have any more children (not the main line, Max will likely inherit).

Good point. If Wax decided not to have more kids, his Mistborness dies with him. Max and the other kid won't inherit this stronger Allomatic genes as they were already born when Wax's spirit web get changed by Lerasium.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by alder24

[cometaryorbit]

I don't know if future children of Wax and Steris would have that much chance of being Mistborn. Spook's weren't, and he was probably a stronger Mistborn - also, Beldre was a Misting, Steris isn't.

[Duxredux]

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't know if future children of Wax and Steris would have that much chance of being Mistborn. Spook's weren't, and he was probably a stronger Mistborn - also, Beldre was a Misting, Steris isn't.

Spook's decendants were far more likely to be Allomancers. That was the whole point of the Set's eugenics project, they gathered the women most closely related to Lord Mistborn. That was fundamental to AoL and how the Set knew who to target.

 

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

It shouldn't work like that. Harmonium is already a combination of Ruin and Preservation's investiture, taking away just one part changes nothing. There is likely a similar cycle of Harmonium like Atium in era 1 - this investiture is permanently separated from Shard in a cycle of making new Harmonium. Just taking away Atium and storing it away would mean less Harmonium would get made - until you store so much Atium that you would stop the cycle completely. It shouldn't contribute to Harmony's imbalance, because just making Harmonium is already doing so. As soon as a bead of god metal gets burnt, investiture returns to the cycle, but it's possible Lerasium's investiture would get stuck in person's spirit web and won't quickly return to the cycle - but this shouldn't imbalance Harmony any more, as Ruin's investiture would wait for Preservation's to continue this cycle, just like destruction of the Pits of Hathsin didn't immediately case all investiture from burnt Atium go straight back to Ruin, this investiture remained bind to the cycle.

I don't buy this. Where is Ruin's Investiture ending up while waiting to be formed into Harmonium if it's as you say? It has to go somewhere after it's burned, even if it's not immediately recycled back to the Shard. Kelsier wrecked Hathsin a single year before Ruin escaped, or if you want to look at Elend's army burning the Trustwarren in what, a day? I'm talking on the scale of hundreds or thousands of years, long enough for Atium crystals to have reformed in the days before the Catacendre. We know that even the slight amount of Investiture that Preservation gave to humanity left it weaker than Ruin, and that's enough to give Sazed trouble 300-350 years after Ascending even accounting for how Ruin tried to decimate the world's population. Giving Lerasium to the entire human populace seems like it should imbalance Harmony even more by the time Era 3 and 4 roll around.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Duxredux
additional thought

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I don't buy this. Where is Ruin's Investiture ending up while waiting to be formed into Harmonium if it's as you say?

Where did Ruin's investiture end up after the Pits were destroyed? It didn't return to Ruin, nor the whole Atium burnt at the end of HoA did - destruction of the Pits ensured that Ruin wouldn't get his Atium for at least 300 years if Vin didn't kill him. This investiture was locked in the cycle, and even destruction of the Pits didn't change that. 

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

It has to go somewhere after it's burned, even if it's not immediately recycled back to the Shard.

It goes back to SR (which is timeless) but it's inaccessible to the Shard - it's kind of a Splintered power of his.

Spoiler

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away". How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It has to do with clash between the two Shards' power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering

Hal-Con 2012 (Oct. 30, 2012)

 

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

We know that even the slight amount of Investiture that Preservation gave to humanity left it weaker than Ruin, and that's enough to give Sazed trouble 300-350 years after Ascending even accounting for how Ruin tried to decimate the world's population. Giving Lerasium to the entire human populace seems like it should imbalance Harmony even more by the time Era 3 and 4 roll around.

If Harmonium's investiture is locked in the cycle like Atium was, even giving people Lerasium made out of Harmonium won't imbalance Harmony, because this investiture is separated from him, just like Atium was separated from Ruin. Burning Lerasium wouldn't weaken Harmony just like burning Atium didn't weaken Ruin.

But if Harmonium's investiture isn't locked in such cycle and is just a Shard's investiture leaking into PR, then giving people Lerasium might indeed further imbalance Harmony, as the same amount of Harmonium would be leaked into PR each year, while he would be getting back more Ruin's investiture as part of Preservation's investiture is used as Lerasium (but that's if burning Lerasium doesn't return it's investiture to Harmony but is stuck in person's spirit web).