The strength of Roseite?

Underwater_Worldhopper · June 24, 2023

50 minutes ago, therunner said:

Citation needed, since again no one in Cosmere, outside of Nightblood and Larkin, can consume Investiture for sustenance.

They aren't consuming the Investiture itself, they're breaking down the structure the Invested particles have formed together for energy, and the Investiture itself escapes.

50 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, so they are not Investiture. No more than Scadrian rock, or Scadrians themselves are Investiture.

But they can't be. Back to the WoB, if Investiture can be turned into regular matter, why not talk about Scadrial and Scadrians instead of Aethers? It implies that Scadrial is inherently something different than what God Metals and Aethers are.

50 minutes ago, therunner said:

I am not saying that Shardblade could damage Honorblade.
Only that clearly more Invested thing can damage less Invested thing (e.g. NIghtblood and Honorblade, or Shardblade and Half-Shard).

That's a false dichotomy. More Invested does not guarantee the ability to damage something less Invested. There is no reason to believe that a steel sword Invested with Feruchemical speed would be able to damage a regular steel sword any more than any other regular steel sword could. Nightblood can damage an Honorblade because it's in his nature to destroy, and his immense amount of Investiture allows him to express that Intent extremely powerfully. A Half-Shard can deflect a Shardblade because of an entirely different design principle than what regular Shardblade/Plate resistance is. There is no reason to believe that it can deflect a Shardblade only because it's Invested; rather, it has to do with the type of Spren that's been trapped in the fabrial connected to the Half-Shard.

50 minutes ago, therunner said:

And since Roseite is seemingly much less Investiture dense (even if it has any Investiture to begin with), than Shardblade would plausibly break it relatively easily.

I do agree that Roseite is definitely not nearly as Invested as a Shardblade. However, that affects its ability to cut it cleanly. How easily Roseite breaks once it can't be cut supernaturally is a separate matter.

therunner · June 24, 2023

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

They aren't consuming the Investiture itself, they're breaking down the structure the Invested particles have formed together for energy, and the Investiture itself escapes.

How?
Regular digestive process would not do that. At best the acidic environment would degrade the Invested particles, but they would not get any energy or sustenance.

Lumarans are regular people, they require the same things anyone else does, and that is composed of ordinary matter, not Invested one. If they can digest it, then it must be made out of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, with other trace elements. That is what humans can process

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

But they can't be. Back to the WoB, if Investiture can be turned into regular matter, why not talk about Scadrial and Scadrians instead of Aethers? It implies that Scadrial is inherently something different than what God Metals and Aethers are.

Why not?
Investiture can be turned into matter.

Feruchemists are living proof of that, they literally get more muscles when tapping F-Pewter.
Soulcasting would be another example, the difference in density is most likely sourced from provided Investiture.
Forgery can change/repair objects, and the matter must come from somewhere.
Scadrial/Nalthis might be another two examples. (if the Shards simply did not reshape present cosmic dust and debris)

There are many examples of Investiture turning into regular non-Invested matter. In light of the more recent WoB it is not too wild to assume that Aethers are simply another example of such.

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's a false dichotomy. More Invested does not guarantee the ability to damage something less Invested. There is no reason to believe that a steel sword Invested with Feruchemical speed would be able to damage a regular steel sword any more than any other regular steel sword could. Nightblood can damage an Honorblade because it's in his nature to destroy, and his immense amount of Investiture allows him to express that Intent extremely powerfully. A Half-Shard can deflect a Shardblade because of an entirely different design principle than what regular Shardblade/Plate resistance is. There is no reason to believe that it can deflect a Shardblade only because it's Invested; rather, it has to do with the type of Spren that's been trapped in the fabrial connected to the Half-Shard.

Possibly yes, possibly no.
However, Half-Shards are being destroyed by Shardblades, as is Plate (and Plate is slightly less Invested than Blade per WoB). So it is not wild extrapolation to assume that generally more Invested objects can destroy less Invested objects (if it is in 'nature' of the more Invested object to destroy).

Shardblades are specifically weapons, and they cut on all 3 realms, similarly to Nightblood. Additionally, they are shown to destroy less Invested objects (Half-Shards, Plate), hence it is relatively clear they would similarly destroy less Invested object like Roseite (if it is Invested at all).

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I do agree that Roseite is definitely not nearly as Invested as a Shardblade. However, that affects its ability to cut it cleanly. How easily Roseite breaks once it can't be cut supernaturally is a separate matter.

Roseite seems to be relatively brittle, and ordinary bullets chip it. Whereeas even Shardplate can resist gunfire well, and Shardblade breaks it in few blows. Shardblade itself seems to be indestructible (outside of Nightblood, anti-Investiture and similar effects).
Hence, Shardblade would most likely break Roseite in one or two blows at most.

Edited June 24, 2023 by therunner

Underwater_Worldhopper · June 24, 2023

1 minute ago, therunner said:

How?
Regular digestive process would not do that. At best the acidic environment would degrade the Invested particles, but they would not get any energy or sustenance.

The WoB about the Harmonium-Water reaction says that the trace metals left behind from the reaction will not be Harmonium; That the actual Investiture is used up in the reaction and the material left behind is a different, unInvested metal. The same could be the case here.

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Why not?
Investiture can be turned into matter.

Feruchemists are living proof of that, they literally get more muscles when tapping F-Pewter.

Soulcasting would be another example, the difference in density is most likely sourced from provided Investiture.

Forgery can change/repair objects, and the matter must come from somewhere.

Scadrial/Nalthis might be another two examples. (if the Shards simply did not reshape present cosmic dust and debris)

There are many examples of Investiture turning into regular non-Invested matter. In light of the more recent WoB it is not too wild to assume that Aethers are simply another example of such.

Exactly. There are so many cases of Investiture turning into regular matter. Why then, does Brandon draw a connection between God Metals and Aethers, instead of any of the things you mentioned here? And just for clarification, although in hindsight it does seem like I'm saying that, I did not mean to say that regular matter can't be made from Investiture, just that given the fact that it's possible, why not mention them instead of Aethers specifically?

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Possibly yes, possibly no.
However, Half-Shards are being destroyed by Shardblades, as is Plate (and Plate is slightly less Invested than Blade per WoB). So it is not wild extrapolation to assume that generally more Invested objects can destroy less Invested objects (if it is in 'nature' of the more Invested object to destroy).

We can't reasonably assume that Half-Shards breaking works under the same principles as something like Shardplate breaking, since it's specifically said that the Half-Shards' blocking of Shardblades works under a different principle. I'll accept that explanation for Shardplate since it's composite of Lesser Spren and so it would be less Invested, but we can't hold that as a rule of thumb for things that aren't specifically Shardplate/Shardblades, such as Nightblood, Half-Shards, and Roseite, since those work under fundamentally different base concepts.

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Shardblades are specifically weapons, and they cut on all 3 realms, similarly to Nightblood. Additionally, they are shown to destroy less Invested objects (Half-Shards, Plate), hence it is relatively clear they would similarly destroy less Invested object like Roseite (if it is Invested at all).

I don't think this is the case, although you aren't too far off. The cutting on all three realms thing is a bit misleading because Blades appear to only ever cut on 1 or maybe 2 realms at a time. For non-living things, it cuts on the Physical Realm only. For living things, it seems to cut on the Spiritual Realm only. You could argue that both cases are cutting on the Cognitive Realm too, but there isn't much in the way of concrete proof of that. If they truly cut on all three realms, that should mean that someone's limbs should be cut off every time you swipe at the regardless of whether they're alive or not, but that is clearly not the case. Only Nightblood seems to cut on all three Realms, because a wound inflicted by him destroys the body, mind, and soul simultaneously.

Beyond that, I don't get what you mean by destroy. Shardplate explodes into molten metal, but that's because it's actually a bunch of Connected Lesser Spren. Half-Shards just break, cracking, or shattering. If Roseite can resist being cut supernaturally, the Shardbearer will have to break it as if with any random tool, not a Shardblade. Roseite does seem brittle, but at that point, you'd be just as well off trying to smash it with a Shardhammer as you would be with a Shardblade.

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Roseite seems to be relatively brittle, and ordinary bullets chip it. Whereeas even Shardplate can resist gunfire well, and Shardblade seems to be indestructible (outside of Nightblood and similar effects).
Hence, Shardblade would most likely break Roseite in one or two blows at most.

Just because Shardplate can resist gunfire while Roseite gets chipped by it does not mean that a Shardblade could destroy Roseite easily. A Shardblade swung with not enough force would not damage Roseite. A bullet has a lot of momentum delivered in a localized area, and it just barely chips Roseite. You'd need quite a lot of force to shatter Roseite as easily as you're suggesting. Shardplate will make it far easier, but it still won't be easy. It won't be particularly hard either, but it's not as easy as you seem to think so, and even then you need to shatter it faster than the Aetherbound (who has Dor in this hypothetical fight) can replenish it. Keep in mind that Roseite won't shatter like Shardplate either, where an entire chunk will just disintegrate immediately. You'd be cutting through Invested rock. Unless you bank very hard on the Shardplate's extra strength, you'd be better off using a Shardhammer, since shattering huge chunks of crystal would be more efficient than a sword, even a large one.

therunner · June 24, 2023

31 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Exactly. There are so many cases of Investiture turning into regular matter. Why then, does Brandon draw a connection between God Metals and Aethers, instead of any of the things you mentioned here?

All of the above require Invested Art to achieve. Your proposal would be completely different.

Quote

And just for clarification, although in hindsight it does seem like I'm saying that, I did not mean to say that regular matter can't be made from Investiture, just that given the fact that it's possible, why not mention them instead of Aethers specifically?

Perhaps because in 2018, he was thinking more along the lines of Aethers being Investiture, and since changed his mind?
Again, in 2023 WoB he says Aether creates air, not Invested breathable gas.

31 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

We can't reasonably assume that Half-Shards breaking works under the same principles as something like Shardplate breaking, since it's specifically said that the Half-Shards' blocking of Shardblades works under a different principle. I'll accept that explanation for Shardplate since it's composite of Lesser Spren and so it would be less Invested, but we can't hold that as a rule of thumb for things that aren't specifically Shardplate/Shardblades, such as Nightblood, Half-Shards, and Roseite, since those work under fundamentally different base concepts.

Why not? Half-Shards resist because they are Invested, seemingly by trapped Nahel Spren. This grants them the ability to resist Shardblade strikes.
Nightblood, normally unstoppable object of destruction, was stopped by Honorblade. The only explanation there is that it is because Honorblade is able to resist cutting of Nightblood due to being so heavily Invested.

It is the same principle in all the cases, the more is object Invested the more it resists being cut by any Shardblade (be it Honor/Shard or Nigthblood).

If Roseite is Invested, then its ability to withstand Shardblade would be directly because of that.

31 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't think this is the case, although you aren't too far off. The cutting on all three realms thing is a bit misleading because Blades appear to only ever cut on 1 or maybe 2 realms at a time. For non-living things, it cuts on the Physical Realm only. For living things, it seems to cut on the Spiritual Realm only. You could argue that both cases are cutting on the Cognitive Realm too, but there isn't much in the way of concrete proof of that. If they truly cut on all three realms, that should mean that someone's limbs should be cut off every time you swipe at the regardless of whether they're alive or not, but that is clearly not the case. Only Nightblood seems to cut on all three Realms, because a wound inflicted by him destroys the body, mind, and soul simultaneously.

No, Shardblade are specifically said to cut on all three realms. Perhaps not simultaneously, but they do cut on all three realms.
Though since they can cut iron/steel lines, they most likely do cut on all three realms for anything that is not living being.

31 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Beyond that, I don't get what you mean by destroy. Shardplate explodes into molten metal, but that's because it's actually a bunch of Connected Lesser Spren. Half-Shards just break, cracking, or shattering. If Roseite can resist being cut supernaturally, the Shardbearer will have to break it as if with any random tool, not a Shardblade. Roseite does seem brittle, but at that point, you'd be just as well off trying to smash it with a Shardhammer as you would be with a Shardblade.

We don't know exactly how the damage works either in Half-shard or Shardplate (or hypothetically, in full metalmind), only that repeated blows will destroy the defensive item beyond use. And seemingly it takes just 2-3 blows to render object useless for defense.
Edit: And both Shardplate and Half-shards shatter after repeated blows with Shardblade. Half-shard shatters on screen WoK pg. 799 (I-9).
So that is two objects, made very differently, that both shatter. This is at minimum suggestive that common failure mode of being repeatedly stricken by Shardblade is shattering.

Hence, 2-3 blows should smash/cut through Roseite even if Invested. And since Shardblade is indestructible, it would most likely carve relatively large sections.

31 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Just because Shardplate can resist gunfire while Roseite gets chipped by it does not mean that a Shardblade could destroy Roseite easily. A Shardblade swung with not enough force would not damage Roseite. A bullet has a lot of momentum delivered in a localized area, and it just barely chips Roseite. You'd need quite a lot of force to shatter Roseite as easily as you're suggesting. Shardplate will make it far easier, but it still won't be easy. It won't be particularly hard either, but it's not as easy as you seem to think so, and even then you need to shatter it faster than the Aetherbound (who has Dor in this hypothetical fight) can replenish it.

If Shardplate can resist gunfire, but breaks with 2-3 hits of Shardblade; and Roseite already chips from regular gunfire, then reasonable assumption is that Roseite is less protective than Shardplate.
Hence, Shardblade would ruin Roseite armor in just few hits.

Quote

Keep in mind that Roseite won't shatter like Shardplate either, where an entire chunk will just disintegrate immediately. You'd be cutting through Invested rock. Unless you bank very hard on the Shardplate's extra strength, you'd be better off using a Shardhammer, since shattering huge chunks of crystal would be more efficient than a sword, even a large one.

Why not? We have no reason to think it won't shatter, in your reasoning it is Invested rock-like object, like Godmetals.
Rock shatter more easily than piece of metal, so Invested rock should probably also shatter more easily than Godmetal.

Edited June 24, 2023 by therunner

Tamriel Wolfsbaine · June 24, 2023

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

All of the above require Invested Art to achieve. Your proposal would be completely different.

Perhaps because in 2018, he was thinking more along the lines of Aethers being Investiture, and since changed his mind?
Again, in 2023 WoB he says Aether creates air, not Invested breathable gas.

Why not? Half-Shards resist because they are Invested, seemingly by trapped Nahel Spren. This grants them the ability to resist Shardblade strikes.
Nightblood, normally unstoppable object of destruction, was stopped by Honorblade. The only explanation there is that it is because Honorblade is able to resist cutting of Nightblood due to being so heavily Invested.

It is the same principle in all the cases, the more is object Invested the more it resists being cut by any Shardblade (be it Honor/Shard or Nigthblood).

If Roseite is Invested, then its ability to withstand Shardblade would be directly because of that.

No, Shardblade are specifically said to cut on all three realms. Perhaps not simultaneously, but they do cut on all three realms.
Though since they can cut iron/steel lines, they most likely do cut on all three realms for anything that is not living being.

We don't know exactly how the damage works either in Half-shard or Shardplate (or hypothetically, in full metalmind), only that repeated blows will destroy the defensive item beyond use. And seemingly it takes just 2-3 blows to render object useless for defense.

Hence, 2-3 blows should smash/cut through Roseite even if Invested. And since Shardblade is indestructible, it would most likely carve relatively large sections.

If Shardplate can resist gunfire, but breaks with 2-3 hits of Shardblade; and Roseite already chips from regular gunfire, then reasonable assumption is that Roseite is less protective than Shardplate.
Hence, Shardblade would ruin Roseite armor in just few hits.

Why not? We have no reason to think it won't shatter, in your reasoning it is Invested rock-like object, like Godmetals.
Rock shatter more easily than piece of metal, so Invested rock should probably also shatter more easily than Godmetal.

I have always had that same beef with shardplate as it cracks and then shatters. That is honestly a part of why I had posed the question in the first place. Invested armor that acts more like a rock than metal...

A sort of new question to pose. How would roseite armor stack against a rock armor perhaps created by a stoneward? Would the investiture act differently and protect one more than the other?

therunner · June 24, 2023

1 minute ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have always had that same beef with shardplate as it cracks and then shatters. That is honestly a part of why I had posed the question in the first place. Invested armor that acts more like a rock than metal...

I think it has to do with what happens to the Plate spiritually in some sense.
E.g. the Plate shatters spiritually as it is damaged (due to it being made out of lesser spren), and so it then shatters in PR.

Also, Half-shards also shatter when they are stricken by Shardblade repeatadly, despite their materialy not being Godmetal, but only regular metal.
This suggests that perhaps Shardblade damages Spiritual component of Invested objects in such a way that they lose cohesivness. I.e. it cuts internal bonds in material, and the material than shatters.

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A sort of new question to pose. How would roseite armor stack against a rock armor perhaps created by a stoneward? Would the investiture act differently and protect one more than the other?

So, I maintain that Roseite is not actively Invested.

Rock would probably crack similarly to the way Roseite does, however some rock might be more resistant?
It is hard to say really, but I would think that Roseite would behave better than vast majority (if not all) rocks.

Underwater_Worldhopper · June 24, 2023

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

All of the above require Invested Art to achieve. Your proposal would be completely different.

My proposal and Invested Arts have nothing to do with this. I'm asking why Brandon would refer to something so obscure (and unpublished, at the time) when there are so many other, much more well-known instances of Investiture becoming regular matter. It very heavily implies that he was talking about Invested physical matter rather than regular matter created from Investiture. Add to that the fact that the conversation started from God Metals, and it starts seeming very weird if Aethers aren't Invested God Metal parallels.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Perhaps because in 2018, he was thinking more along the lines of Aethers being Investiture, and since changed his mind?
Again, in 2023 WoB he says Aether creates air, not Invested breathable gas.

Perhaps, but the air WoB isn't enough evidence for me. The Harmonium-Water reaction WoB makes it clear that God Metals themselves are regular metals that have the Spiritual Aspect of a Shard. That's why, when the Spiritual Aspect is separated through something like the Harmonium-Water reaction, the leftover metal is actually something else. Being air doesn't preclude the Zephyr Aether from being Invested. It could just be Invested air, where it acts like Gaseous Investiture, but by being used in a chemical reaction like respiration, the Investiture is released and the actual particulates left are air molecules.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why not? Half-Shards resist because they are Invested, seemingly by trapped Nahel Spren. This grants them the ability to resist Shardblade strikes.

You say that like you know exactly how Half-Shards work when that information has specifically been said to be not revealed yet and will be focused on in future books. Shardblades and Shardplate resist each other because they are Invested, as you said. Shardplate breaks before Shardblades because they're less Invested, as you said. We know for a fact that Half-Shards can resist Shardblades based on a different design function than regular Shards. That means they cannot possibly be resisting Blades because of sheer Investiture, because then that would be the exact same thing that protects regular Shardplate from Shardblades.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

If Roseite is Invested, then its ability to withstand Shardblade would be directly because of that.

That it would, but the "shattering" effect of Shardplate is unique to it, nothing else does that. Roseite would resist because it is Invested, but it would not shatter into molten metal, it would shatter just the same as if you took a chunk of it and slammed a hammer against it.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

No, Shardblade are specifically said to cut on all three realms. Perhaps not simultaneously, but they do cut on all three realms.

If they don't cut it simultaneously, then what's the point? You're stuck in two different modes of attack, which are dependent on your target rather than the effect you want. You can't physically damage a living target, and you can't spiritually attack a non-living target. Attacking cognitively is up for debate, but that arguably isn't happening in either circumstance. I'm sure it has to ability to cut on all three Realms, but the fact that it's not simultaneous makes that factor irrelevant to discussions like this one.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

We don't know exactly how the damage works either in Half-shard or Shardplate (or hypothetically, in full metalmind), only that repeated blows will destroy the defensive item beyond use. And seemingly it takes just 2-3 blows to render object useless for defense.

We know that only for Shardplate. Half-Shards shatter, but any chunk of it still attached to the Fabrial in the back should still work. Metalminds are a different magic system, so they probably won't shatter, but rather the magical cutting would be eliminated, and it would then be like trying to split the metalmind with a regular sword. If the Metalmind doesn't have enough Investiture inside it, the Shardblade will still cut it supernaturally, it'll just encounter resistance as opposed to cutting seamlessly.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Hence, 2-3 blows should smash/cut through Roseite even if Invested. And since Shardblade is indestructible, it would most likely carve relatively large sections.

Again, not necessarily, because that kind of destruction under a Shardblade only affects Shardplate.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

If Shardplate can resist gunfire, but breaks with 2-3 hits of Shardblade; and Roseite already chips from regular gunfire, then reasonable assumption is that Roseite is less protective than Shardplate.
Hence, Shardblade would ruin Roseite armor in just few hits.

I suppose that makes sense.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why not? We have no reason to think it won't shatter, in your reasoning it is Invested rock-like object, like Godmetals.
Rock shatter more easily than piece of metal, so Invested rock should probably also shatter more easily than Godmetal.

That's once again a false dichotomy. It would be like trying to shatter the Roseite with a regular sword. You could still shatter it either way, but the mechanism is different, and that's important. And it seems like you're suggesting a God Metal would Shatter under a Shardblade. A God Metal would be totally immune to a Shardblade, since it's made of the same material, only aligned to a different Shard. WoB maintains that even a God Metal alloy could resist a Shardblade.

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I have always had that same beef with shardplate as it cracks and then shatters. That is honestly a part of why I had posed the question in the first place. Invested armor that acts more like a rock than metal...

That's because it's made of a bunch of independent little animals, basically. You've essentially taken a bunch of Lesser Spren and bound them together around you. With each hit, they get more and more alarmed, more and more resistant to your Connection and Command for them to stay there, and once they get damaged enough, they're too frantic to obey you any more and scatter.

19 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

A sort of new question to pose. How would roseite armor stack against a rock armor perhaps created by a stoneward? Would the investiture act differently and protect one more than the other?

Roseite would defend you as we're theorizing right now. Stoneward-created armor would be utterly useless unless it's still actively infused during the fighting, and that necessarily makes it malleable and fluid, which would let Shardblades through rather easily. If it isn't, it's just a bunch of rock, and Shardblades can cut through those effortlessly. It would provide no more protection than any other type of regular armor, but it would also slow you down a lot, tire you faster, and unless it's made very specifically with very highly engineered joints, you couldn't even move in it.

Compared to that, Roseite is actually Invested and so can resist Shardblades, can be actively altered and repaired, and you could change it to fit your needs.

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think it has to do with what happens to the Plate spiritually in some sense.
E.g. the Plate shatters spiritually as it is damaged (due to it being made out of lesser spren), and so it then shatters in PR.

It's made of Lesser Spren bound together by the Radiant's will; the more they get damaged, the more frantic and nervous the Lesser Spren get. After a certain point, they're just to frenzied to control anymore, like how Koloss and Inquisitors can break out of otherwise complete mental subjugation during a Blood Frenzy.

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also, Half-shards also shatter when they are stricken by Shardblade repeatadly, despite their materialy not being Godmetal, but only regular metal.
This suggests that perhaps Shardblade damages Spiritual component of Invested objects in such a way that they lose cohesivness. I.e. it cuts internal bonds in material, and the material than shatters.

That's interesting, but that may be a side effect of how it works, and since we don't know what that is, we can't really say with any certainty.

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

Rock would probably crack similarly to the way Roseite does, however some rock might be more resistant?
It is hard to say really, but I would think that Roseite would behave better than vast majority (if not all) rocks.

Why would rock be resistant to a Shardblade? But I agree, if a rock was Invested, it would act like Roseite would.

alder24 · June 24, 2023

3 hours ago, therunner said:

If Roseite is Invested, then its ability to withstand Shardblade would be directly because of that.

I think it has to be invested, it's the Prime Aether essence. Silajana was able to see through it, it must be invested, but likely not a lot.

TLM ch 47:

Quote

She waved TwinSoul over. “Can you see ifthere is anyone watching below?”
A small line of roseite provided answers.
“Silajana sees two guards,” TwinSoul whispered.

Edited June 24, 2023 by alder24

cometaryorbit · June 24, 2023

10 hours ago, therunner said:

Liquid Investiture is still less powerful than Solid Investiture, so it would most likely not block, only resist to some extant.

Actually, liquid investiture is supposed to be the most powerful form, at least on Scadrial...

From https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6072

Quote

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing.

alder24 · June 24, 2023

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Actually, liquid investiture is supposed to be the most powerful form, at least on Scadrial...

From https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6072

It's about power, how much you can fuel with it (liquid can fuel a lot, solid does one specific thing, potent vs rigid), not about investiture density. Physical investiture, like matter, is the most dense in solid state.

Edit: For resisting a Shardblade investiture density matters the most, not potency.

Edited June 24, 2023 by alder24

therunner · June 25, 2023

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think it has to be invested, it's the Prime Aether essence. Silajana was able to see through it, it must be invested, but likely not a lot.

Good point!
Then I concede that it is Invested somewhat, but still maintain that it is much less than Shardblade/Plate.

And that it would shatter with a few hits from Shardblade.

Tamriel Wolfsbaine · June 25, 2023

46 minutes ago, therunner said:

Good point!
Then I concede that it is Invested somewhat, but still maintain that it is much less than Shardblade/Plate.

And that it would shatter with a few hits from Shardblade.

I don't doubt that it would break with hits from a shardblade. If only there existed a list of how much investiture certain things take to do certain things...

Shardplate shatters with a few hits from a shardblade.

Shardplate doesn't necessarily grow back right away though (living plate is a different story perhaps).

But Roseite could theoretically continue to be regrown as fast as needed so long as a fuel source existed for it.

Doesn't that make someone with access to a bunch of water and / or investiture more protected from blades than even someone in plate?

therunner · June 25, 2023

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

My proposal and Invested Arts have nothing to do with this. I'm asking why Brandon would refer to something so obscure (and unpublished, at the time) when there are so many other, much more well-known instances of Investiture becoming regular matter. It very heavily implies that he was talking about Invested physical matter rather than regular matter created from Investiture. Add to that the fact that the conversation started from God Metals, and it starts seeming very weird if Aethers aren't Invested God Metal parallels.

Maybe because for the kind of people who ask WoB questions, Aethers are not obscure?
You can simply request manuscript right here on this very site and read the original manuscript.

And like I said, perhaps that was the original intent with them, but when rehashing the details he changed his minds due to current Cosmere mechanics.

At the moment, in light of the quote from @alder24 I do think that Aethers are somewhat Invested, but in the similar way e.g. fabrials are. So regular matter that is Invested.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You say that like you know exactly how Half-Shards work when that information has specifically been said to be not revealed yet and will be focused on in future books. Shardblades and Shardplate resist each other because they are Invested, as you said. Shardplate breaks before Shardblades because they're less Invested, as you said. We know for a fact that Half-Shards can resist Shardblades based on a different design function than regular Shards. That means they cannot possibly be resisting Blades because of sheer Investiture, because then that would be the exact same thing that protects regular Shardplate from Shardblades.

Half-Shard have been described in relatively good amount of detail.
We know they are fabrial, so they are Invested. We know they can take one or two hits from Shardblade before Shattering (like Plate). And they most likely hold Nahel Spren.

So the explanation that they work along the same principles as everything else that is said to resist Shardblade (i.e. by being Invested) make sense.
There are only two known ways of resisting Shardblade, heavily Invested material or Aluminum. Half-Shard are not aluminum, and Aluminum usage in fabrials was not discoved yet, hence it must be their Investiture.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That it would, but the "shattering" effect of Shardplate is unique to it, nothing else does that. Roseite would resist because it is Invested, but it would not shatter into molten metal, it would shatter just the same as if you took a chunk of it and slammed a hammer against it.

As I stated, shattering effect is not unique to Shardplate, Half-Shard does it as well.
So either it is generic effect of being damaged sufficiently by Shardblade for Invested objects, or for some reason metal in Half-Shard starts acting like Godmetal when it becomes damaged.

Take your pick.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

We know that only for Shardplate. Half-Shards shatter, but any chunk of it still attached to the Fabrial in the back should still work.

Citation needed. Based on what is on screen that is not the case. Once Half-Shard is shattered, it is destroyed beyond repair and no longer functions.
The shield itself is part of fabrial, so if it gets destroyed, so did the fabrial.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Metalminds are a different magic system, so they probably won't shatter, but rather the magical cutting would be eliminated, and it would then be like trying to split the metalmind with a regular sword. If the Metalmind doesn't have enough Investiture inside it, the Shardblade will still cut it supernaturally, it'll just encounter resistance as opposed to cutting seamlessly.

I doubt that for a simple reason: if that was the case than basically Metalmind would be better armor than Godmetal armor made out Investiture out Shard of Oaths, that requires 4th Oath. Why would side use of Feruchemy be better at defense than aspect of Invested Art designed for it? Escpecially since the Investiture should be kind of great for it (e.g. Shard of Oaths and Bonds will probably have Investiture that holds together quite well).

So yeah, I do think that even fully Invested metalmind that can stop a Shardblade would shatter within two-three hits at most.

And, if you think that Half-Shards work on different principle, and yet they also shatter, than my case is actually stronger, since it would be two independant instances.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Again, not necessarily, because that kind of destruction under a Shardblade only affects Shardplate.

No, it affect both Shardplate and Half-Shards. So in all cases of Shardblade interacting with Invested matter (that is not another Shardblade), the object in question shatters after few hits.
There is zero evidence to assume that Roseite would act any different.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's once again a false dichotomy. It would be like trying to shatter the Roseite with a regular sword. You could still shatter it either way, but the mechanism is different, and that's important. And it seems like you're suggesting a God Metal would Shatter under a Shardblade. A God Metal would be totally immune to a Shardblade, since it's made of the same material, only aligned to a different Shard. WoB maintains that even a God Metal alloy could resist a Shardblade.

Except we see Godemetal shatter from Shardblade, every single time Shardplate shatters.

And it shatters into smaller chunks than the original spren that made it up. From what we see in RoW with Kaladin, it seems that one lesser spren = one section of plate. It explicitly calls out that windspren smashes into his hand and forms gauntlet. So when you shatter a section of plate, you are shattering Investiture of single spren, not separating multiple spren.
Quote:

Quote

With his hand outstrached, Kaladin watched as a windspren slammed into it and flashed, outlining his hand with a glowing transparent gauntlet.

And since he can make Plate transparent at will, that this is already full gauntlet.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's because it's made of a bunch of independent little animals, basically. You've essentially taken a bunch of Lesser Spren and bound them together around you. With each hit, they get more and more alarmed, more and more resistant to your Connection and Command for them to stay there, and once they get damaged enough, they're too frantic to obey you any more and scatter.

That is nothing but conjecture on your end, there has been no hint that they get more alarmed and more resistant to any Command.

And as stated above, single section of plate is single spren, so when it shatters it is not spren scattering, but single spren being damaged somehow. Not beyond repair, but still damaged.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It's made of Lesser Spren bound together by the Radiant's will; the more they get damaged, the more frantic and nervous the Lesser Spren get. After a certain point, they're just to frenzied to control anymore, like how Koloss and Inquisitors can break out of otherwise complete mental subjugation during a Blood Frenzy.

Any evidence for this conjecture? Especially in light of the fact that single section = single spren?

And lesser spren are not being subjugated, they come willingly to Radiant. Hell, even deadplate does not scream but is instead content with itself.

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Why would rock be resistant to a Shardblade? But I agree, if a rock was Invested, it would act like Roseite would.

The question was to compare rock armor with Roseite armor, not necessarily specifically against Shardblade.
Since rocks crack, Roseite does as well, I answered.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't doubt that it would break with hits from a shardblade. If only there existed a list of how much investiture certain things take to do certain things...

So far everything breaks from few hits from Shardblade.
Again, why would one application of one Invested Art be better than a specialized thing? Plate is meant to defend, it is designed for that, Roseite is not.

I would say specialized tool is better at its task then general one.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Shardplate doesn't necessarily grow back right away though (living plate is a different story perhaps).

Give Shardplate Unkeyed Dor and it would regrow super-fast I think. Deadplate can already regrow on its own, providing Stormlight just speeds it up. So providing liquid Investiture would probably speed it even further.

Living plate can probably fix itself by attracting new spren of the same type. But it leaves a moment where the section is gone, so it is only useful once section is fully broken (if indeed this way of fixing is possible).

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But Roseite could theoretically continue to be regrown as fast as needed so long as a fuel source existed for it.

So could Shardplate.

3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Doesn't that make someone with access to a bunch of water and / or investiture more protected from blades than even someone in plate?

Water would not be enough, from TLM we can conclude that Roseite + Investiture is just as more powerful than Roseite+water, as Allomancy + Dor is compared to normal Allomancy. Prasanva is quite clear that without Dor he could not create and sustain the golem.

And Plate is most likely better at handling gunfire (per WoB it would resist gunfire well, and it does not chip at all), so it is most likely more protective in general.

Again, I would wager that specialized tool designed for defense is better at it than a general one that can also be used in similar way.

So if you give both same amount of Investiture I would say that Shardplate wins every single time.

Edited June 25, 2023 by therunner

alder24 · June 25, 2023

4 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I don't doubt that it would break with hits from a shardblade. If only there existed a list of how much investiture certain things take to do certain things...

Shardplate shatters with a few hits from a shardblade.

Shardplate doesn't necessarily grow back right away though (living plate is a different story perhaps).

But Roseite could theoretically continue to be regrown as fast as needed so long as a fuel source existed for it.

The difference is that Aethers is constantly fed with fresh investiture, while dead Shardplate has only 10 gems worth of it - when Kaladin grabbed Shardplate's helmet (Adolin's duel WoR), it fed on his Stormlight and was able to heal several hits from a Shardblade, much more than it should have under normal circumstances.

Twinsoul spends 2 pages growing his golem, while having conversation. He could quickly grow new Aethers in places chipped by gunfire, but bullets aren't a Shardblade, an arm cut off by a Shardblade would take time to regrow.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

So yeah, I do think that even fully Invested metalmind that can stop a Shardblade would shatter within two-three hits at most.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

1 hour ago, therunner said:

No, it affect both Shardplate and Half-Shards. So in all cases of Shardblade interacting with Invested matter (that is not another Shardblade), the object in question shatters after few hits.

Nightblood striking Ishar's Honorblade also created some sort of explosion, I agree, this seems to be a nature of Shardblades and invested objects.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

So if you give both same amount of Investiture I would say that Shardplate wins every single time.

Personally I think that if it's just a person with a Shardplate, without a Shardblade, Prasanva would win, as he can grow his own weapon and even trap his opponent in Roseite for some short time. He has more advantages than a Shardbearer. But give a Shardbearer a Shardblade and he would win.

therunner · June 25, 2023

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

A full metalmind and a Half-Shard are both moderately invested - you're right, metalmind should be shattered or broken after a few hits. But does a Shardblade damage investiture stored in that metalmind? If yes then a Feruchemist can gain a bit more space to store more attribute in it, and make it withstand a few more hits.

Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

Questioner

Is that gonna be the answer for all of these?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably!

Questioner

How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on...

Questioner

Not in a person.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things.

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

Questioner #2

A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah.

Questioner

So that'd be the same for Shardplate too?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

Questioner

A Half-shard?

Brandon Sanderson

A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate.

Questioner

Nightblood? I imagine that being hard.

Brandon Sanderson

Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade.

Questioner

Far beyond metal inside a person?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is.

Questioner

If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier.

Questioner

That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

Questioner

A soulstamped piece of metal?

Brandon Sanderson

A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

Thanks for the WoB, good supporting evidence.

And while Feruchemist could store a bit more after it is damaged, unless they are Compounder they cannot store enough to make a difference. As discussed multiple times, full Metalminds of even relatively small size most likely store years worth of Attribute. Not something Feruchmist can replace on the fly.

Of course, if the failure is due to something else (e.g. spiritual/cognitive aspect of the object being damaged and broken), then Investing the object more won't help unless that Investiture somehow strengthens that damaged aspect.

For Shardplate, spren in general consume and are healed by Investiture, so even when in physical form Investiture still heals them. So it is not effect of being just invested, but natural part of the spren being leveraged. Metalminds don't have analogue of that effect, they don't become more physically resilient, or 'perfected'/fixed by Feruchemist storing into them.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Nightblood striking Ishar's Honorblade also created some sort of explosion, I agree, this seems to be a nature of Shardblades and invested objects.

Huh, forgot about that.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Personally I think that if it's just a person with a Shardplate, without a Shardblade, Prasanva would win, as he can grow his own weapon and even trap his opponent in Roseite for some short time. He has more advantages than a Shardbearer. But give a Shardbearer a Shardblade and he would win.

Yeah, I was thinking Shardplate + Blade.

Shardplate alone, might still win if the wearer knows capabilities of Roseite. It's growth is not that fast, so trapping Shardbearer would not be easy.
I think it would come down to which provides better physical strength.

Edited June 25, 2023 by therunner

Underwater_Worldhopper · June 25, 2023

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Maybe because for the kind of people who ask WoB questions, Aethers are not obscure?
You can simply request manuscript right here on this very site and read the original manuscript.

That doesn't change the fact that there were much better examples that would be much clearer, easier to understand and draw parallels between, and that would avoid this very confusion. I very sincerely doubt he meant regular matter being made from Investiture.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And like I said, perhaps that was the original intent with them, but when rehashing the details he changed his minds due to current Cosmere mechanics.

More and more, that does seem to be what the current iteration is leaning toward, but this is just one of the things we don't have any concrete evidence for despite it being likely. The "breathable air" WoB isn't convincing to me in this regard, and we have a WoB that's leaning heavily towards them being God Metal analogs. So while You have convinced me in large part, I'm still going to go forward with the understanding that Aethers are physical Investiture like God Metals until we get some more concrete evidence.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Half-Shard have been described in relatively good amount of detail.
We know they are fabrial, so they are Invested. We know they can take one or two hits from Shardblade before Shattering (like Plate). And they most likely hold Nahel Spren.

So the explanation that they work along the same principles as everything else that is said to resist Shardblade (i.e. by being Invested) make sense.
There are only two known ways of resisting Shardblade, heavily Invested material or Aluminum. Half-Shard are not aluminum, and Aluminum usage in fabrials was not discoved yet, hence it must be their Investiture.

Fabrials use their subject Spren to create effects. The Half-Shards could be using some method to create an effect that can repel a Shardblade by manipulating the Spren it has trapped. Aluminum and Investiture, as you said, are the only two known ways of resisting a Shardblade. There could easily be more.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

As I stated, shattering effect is not unique to Shardplate, Half-Shard does it as well.
So either it is generic effect of being damaged sufficiently by Shardblade for Invested objects, or for some reason metal in Half-Shard starts acting like Godmetal when it becomes damaged.

Citation needed. Based on what is on screen that is not the case. Once Half-Shard is shattered, it is destroyed beyond repair and no longer functions.
The shield itself is part of fabrial, so if it gets destroyed, so did the fabrial.

Here's the scene from The Way of Kings when Szeth attacks the king of Jah Keved.

Here's how Shardplate shattering is described:

Quote

The red Shardbearer turned just as the massive, infused rock fell toward him, moving with twenty times the normal acceleration of a falling stone. It crashed into him, shattering his breastplate, spraying molten bits in all directions.

And here's how a Half-Shard breaking is described:

Quote

Szeth caught the Blade on his shield, which cracked, barely holding.

...

Szeth wove through the guards, then hit the shield twice, shattering it and forcing the king backward.

The shield is never described as shattering into molten metal, so the pieces must remain. And since the actual Fabrial is embedded in the back, whatever piece of the Half-Shard is still attached to the gemstone still works, even if the majority of the Shield has been stripped away. If the Shield itself has anything to do with the Fabrial, a small piece of it still being connected to the gemstone should be enough to keep it working, and if it isn't needed for the actual Fabrial, it should still work regardless. This is because the type of metal is what affects the Fabrial, not the shape of said metal. Having the majority of the Shield shatter and become disconnected shouldn't change the resistance of the piece still connected, because that piece was the only part actually touching the Fabrial. The Fabrial should continue to work so long as the gemstone itself is fine.

Turning into molten metal is a feature of Shardplate only, because it's made of Spren that stop manifesting when they become too damaged.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I doubt that for a simple reason: if that was the case than basically Metalmind would be better armor than Godmetal armor made out Investiture out Shard of Oaths, that requires 4th Oath. Why would side use of Feruchemy be better at defense than aspect of Invested Art designed for it? Escpecially since the Investiture should be kind of great for it (e.g. Shard of Oaths and Bonds will probably have Investiture that holds together quite well).

Charging enough metal to make a whole set of armor out of it would take ridiculously long for most Feruchemical powers, whereas you can summon and maintain Shardplate easily once you reach the requisite number of oaths, provided you have to Stormlight, and then you'd have to maintain that set of armor against people who have massive shapeshifting swords and supernatural strength. Metalmind armor could work much better, but it would take a LOT of time to create, and then you'd have to make sure it's usable through all the damage it sustains.

But independent of what you were saying here, I've just realized I've been thinking of Aluminum this whole time. Considering that Shardblades attack the Spiritual Aspect of things too, it probably would shatter.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

So yeah, I do think that even fully Invested metalmind that can stop a Shardblade would shatter within two-three hits at most.

Probably, if you hit it really hard. I've just spent some time squirreling around in the Arcanum and have found this:

Quote

Questioner

How many smacks would it take from a Shardblade to break, say, a metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

A metalmind? Depends on how much it's invested.
Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

So yes, it would break.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And, if you think that Half-Shards work on different principle, and yet they also shatter, than my case is actually stronger, since it would be two independant instances.

That's honestly a good point, I'm sold.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Except we see Godemetal shatter from Shardblade, every single time Shardplate shatters.

But that's due to it being made of a Spren, which does not like being hit. When it shatters, it's the Spren being too damaged to manifest anymore. In contrast, God Metals, even God Metal Alloys, have been said to make good weapons against Shardbearers, so if they break, it'll take a lot more than the standard 2 or 3 hits.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And it shatters into smaller chunks than the original spren that made it up. From what we see in RoW with Kaladin, it seems that one lesser spren = one section of plate. It explicitly calls out that windspren smashes into his hand and forms gauntlet. So when you shatter a section of plate, you are shattering Investiture of single spren, not separating multiple spren.

And since he can make Plate transparent at will, that this is already full gauntlet.

I think that's just flavor text. In the very next line, it says:

Quote

Dozens of others slammed into him, joyful, exultant.

We know from Shardbearers suiting up that Shardplate doesn't separate into nearly so many pieces:

Quote

The armor bearers inspected his boots—checking to be certain the laces were tight—then brought a long padded vest to throw over his uniform. Next, they set the sabatons—armor for his boots—on the floor before him. They encased his boots entirely and had a rough surface on the bottoms that seemed to cling to rock. The interiors glowed with the light of the sapphires in their indented pockets. He stepped into the sabatons, and the straps tightened of their own accord, fitting around his boots. The greaves came next, going over his legs and knees, locking on to the sabatons. Shardplate wasn’t like ordinary armor; there was no mesh of steel mail and no leather straps at the joints. Shardplate seams were made of smaller plates, interlocking, overlapping, incredibly intricate, leaving no vulnerable gaps. There was very little rubbing or chafing; each piece fit together perfectly, as if it had been crafted specifically for Dalinar. Dalinar stood still as the armor bearers affixed the cuisses over his thighs and locked them to the culet and faulds across his waist and lower back. A skirt made of small, interlocking plates came next, reaching down to just above the knees.“ You know how I feel about man-carried bridges, Teleb,” Dalinar said as the armor bearers locked his breastplate into place, then worked on the rerebraces and vambraces for his arms. Dalinar waved with his left hand as the armor bearers locked the gauntlet onto his right. He made a fist, tiny plates curving perfectly. The left gauntlet followed. Then the gorget went over his head, covering his neck, the pauldrons on his shoulders, and the helm on his head. Finally, the armor bearers affixed his cape to the pauldrons.

Shardplate is separated into these pieces:

Sabatons
Greaves
Cuisses
Culet
Faulds
Skirt
Breastplate
Rerebraces
Vambraces
Gauntlets
Gorget
Pauldrons
Helm

That's far from the "Dozens" that are described.

And in this case, Kaladin isn't commanding it to be transparent. As the Shardplate forms, it becomes opaque, and only after he grabs Lirin does he make the Plate become transparent.

Quote again:

Quote

Lirin dangled from the gauntleted fist of a Shardbearer in resplendent Shardplate. Armor that seemed alive as it glowed a vibrant blue at the seams, Bridge Four glyphs emblazoned across the chest.

A flying Shardbearer. Storms. It was him.

Kaladin proved it by rotating so that they were right-side up—then hoisting Lirin into a tight embrace. Remarkably, as Lirin touched the Plate, he couldn’t feel it. It became completely transparent—barely visible, in fact, as a faint outline around Kaladin.

So it seems like any one piece is a whole Spren all on its own, but rather multiple working together through Connection.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

That is nothing but conjecture on your end, there has been no hint that they get more alarmed and more resistant to any Command.

Here's Jasnah fighting in Emul/Tukar:

Quote

But as she came out of her roll, that storming Fused lunged in, slamming two axe-hands at her head, cracking the Plate. The helm howled in pain and annoyance, then lapped up her Stormlight to repair itself.

Here, we see that the Plate can feel pain. Since Jansah's Shardplate is living, it can drain her of Stormlight to heal itself, but regular Dead Shardplate would be unable to heal itself nearly as quickly, and neither is it Connected to the Surgebinder, so it requires the extra Stormlight spheres to even function. If the Spren were too damaged, they will just leave, and then drawn back through Stormlight, once again through it's Connection to the rest of the Plate.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And as stated above, single section of plate is single spren, so when it shatters it is not spren scattering, but single spren being damaged somehow. Not beyond repair, but still damaged.

Any evidence for this conjecture? Especially in light of the fact that single section = single spren?

Clearly, a single section is not the same as a single Spren.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

And lesser spren are not being subjugated, they come willingly to Radiant. Hell, even deadplate does not scream but is instead content with itself.

You're going to have to provide a citation for the content with itself bit. And I was not saying that the Radiant has subjugated them, I was just comparing them to how Inquisitors and Koloss, who do get subjugated, can break out of control with extreme emotions. Given the fact that they come willingly to the Radiant, they become even less obligated to stay with them under pressure. Here's a longer version of the quote I cited above:

Quote

Dozens of others slammed into him, joyful, exultant. Lines of light exploded around him as the spren transformed—being pulled into this realm and choosing to Connect to him.

Given that they can be hurt, and that in Deadplate the Spren cannot immediately heal themselves, they can stop manifesting and are eventually drawn back by the Connection they willingly formed, which now keep them there, possibly trapped against their will, in Deadplate. If a Radiant couldn't heal them, I suspect they'd begin to break and vanish then too, no longer following the Radiants Commands like how Kaladin controls them during the battle in Urithiru.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

The question was to compare rock armor with Roseite armor, not necessarily specifically against Shardblade.
Since rocks crack, Roseite does as well, I answered.

Oh, not specifically against a Shardblade? It's a lot more interchangeable in that case, save maybe that Roseite would be a bit more durable since it's a crystal as opposed to something like sedimentary rock.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

So far everything breaks from few hits from Shardblade.
Again, why would one application of one Invested Art be better than a specialized thing? Plate is meant to defend, it is designed for that, Roseite is not.

In light of that WoB, I agree, Roseite would probably shatter in two or three hits.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Give Shardplate Unkeyed Dor and it would regrow super-fast I think. Deadplate can already regrow on its own, providing Stormlight just speeds it up. So providing liquid Investiture would probably speed it even further.

Getting Dor into Shardplate wouldn't even be that hard, since you can trap Dor in a gem quite easily.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Living plate can probably fix itself by attracting new spren of the same type. But it leaves a moment where the section is gone, so it is only useful once section is fully broken (if indeed this way of fixing is possible).

If you're using Living Plate, it can heal itself through just the Stormlight in the Radiant.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

So if you give both same amount of Investiture I would say that Shardplate wins every single time.

A Shardbearer would likely win against any opponent with equal amounts of Investiture. I thought the question was having a regular Shardbearer in Deadplate with a Deadblade vs Prasanva with a jar or two of Dor.

therunner · June 25, 2023

17 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That doesn't change the fact that there were much better examples that would be much clearer, easier to understand and draw parallels between, and that would avoid this very confusion. I very sincerely doubt he meant regular matter being made from Investiture.

Quote

More and more, that does seem to be what the current iteration is leaning toward, but this is just one of the things we don't have any concrete evidence for despite it being likely. The "breathable air" WoB isn't convincing to me in this regard, and we have a WoB that's leaning heavily towards them being God Metal analogs. So while You have convinced me in large part, I'm still going to go forward with the understanding that Aethers are physical Investiture like God Metals until we get some more concrete evidence.

Fair enough, I think differently based on the recent WoB.
I don't we will convince each other, so let us move on from this particular line of discussion.

18 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Fabrials use their subject Spren to create effects. The Half-Shards could be using some method to create an effect that can repel a Shardblade by manipulating the Spren it has trapped. Aluminum and Investiture, as you said, are the only two known ways of resisting a Shardblade. There could easily be more.

Until we are shown others, it makes more sense to assume that Half-Shards work on the same principle as other Invested Items, and not on some new unknown principle.

Half-Shards are moderately Invested like Full Metalminds, Half-Shard can resist Shardblade blows, as can full Metalmind. Therefore easiest explanation is that Half-Shard resists simply because it is Invested. Occam's razor.

20 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The shield is never described as shattering into molten metal, so the pieces must remain. And since the actual Fabrial is embedded in the back, whatever piece of the Half-Shard is still attached to the gemstone still works, even if the majority of the Shield has been stripped away. If the Shield itself has anything to do with the Fabrial, a small piece of it still being connected to the gemstone should be enough to keep it working, and if it isn't needed for the actual Fabrial, it should still work regardless. This is because the type of metal is what affects the Fabrial, not the shape of said metal. Having the majority of the Shield shatter and become disconnected shouldn't change the resistance of the piece still connected, because that piece was the only part actually touching the Fabrial. The Fabrial should continue to work so long as the gemstone itself is fine.

The fact that it does not shatter into molten metal, and just non-molten metal is relatively small difference though.
And Half-Shards are described as Invested as whole, so damage to shield most likely damages Fabrial itself as well. If the shield is part of construction (which I think it is) than Fabrial won't work because its cage is damaged.

Also Fabrial is not just the gemstone, but also the metallic cage around it. So if you think only metal of the shield shatters, why not the much finer metalwork of fabrial?

22 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Turning into molten metal is a feature of Shardplate only, because it's made of Spren that stop manifesting when they become too damaged.

But shattering is feature of both Shardplate and Half-shard, despite the fact that metals don't ordinarily shatter like that.

22 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Charging enough metal to make a whole set of armor out of it would take ridiculously long for most Feruchemical powers, whereas you can summon and maintain Shardplate easily once you reach the requisite number of oaths, provided you have to Stormlight, and then you'd have to maintain that set of armor against people who have massive shapeshifting swords and supernatural strength. Metalmind armor could work much better, but it would take a LOT of time to create, and then you'd have to make sure it's usable through all the damage it sustains.

Would it? With medallions that can store weight of ship, you could plausibly fill metalminds relatively fast (at least Iron ones).

24 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

So yes, it would break.

Yeah, I was thinking of that WoB but was too lazy to find it

25 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think that's just flavor text. In the very next line, it says:

Quote

Dozens of others slammed into him, joyful, exultant.

We know from Shardbearers suiting up that Shardplate doesn't separate into nearly so many pieces:

Shardplate is separated into these pieces:

Sabatons

Greaves

Cuisses

Culet

Faulds

Skirt

Breastplate

Rerebraces

Vambraces

Gauntlets

Gorget

Pauldrons

Helm

That's far from the "Dozens" that are described.

You are mistaken, the line actually reads (I can provide photo if you want):

Quote

A dozen others slammed into him, joyful, exultant.

Not dozens, a dozen. So with the one that already slammed into him, that is exactly 13. I think you just proved my line of reasoning for me.

28 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Clearly, a single section is not the same as a single Spren.

Seemingly it is, based on your very own research.

28 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You're going to have to provide a citation for the content with itself bit.

RoW, Interlude 1, pg. 280

Quote

It was kind of a corpse - well, lots of corpses - but not as offensive. The difference, she supposed, was attitude. She could sense contentment, not pain from the Plate.

33 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Given that they can be hurt, and that in Deadplate the Spren cannot immediately heal themselves, they can stop manifesting and are eventually drawn back by the Connection they willingly formed, which now keep them there, possibly trapped against their will, in Deadplate. If a Radiant couldn't heal them, I suspect they'd begin to break and vanish then too, no longer following the Radiants Commands like how Kaladin controls them during the battle in Urithiru.

If they could just choose to leave, why does Deadplate exist?

alder24 · June 25, 2023

26 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

If the Shield itself has anything to do with the Fabrial, a small piece of it still being connected to the gemstone should be enough to keep it working, and if it isn't needed for the actual Fabrial, it should still work regardless. This is because the type of metal is what affects the Fabrial, not the shape of said metal.

Fabrial is gem + metal caging. Gemstones alone aren't fabrials. Metal is an essential part of most fabrial - without metal wiring, it wouldn't work at all. Half-Shard's metal wiring is the whole shield - without it there is no fabial anymore.

It's possible that the gem itself is destroyed with the shield, because of the sheer amount of light which would likely be drawn out of the gem when the shield is being broken - if the gem loses light fast, it can crack.

31 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Shardplate is separated into these pieces:

Sabatons

Greaves

Cuisses

Culet

Faulds

Skirt

Breastplate

Rerebraces

Vambraces

Gauntlets

Gorget

Pauldrons

Helm

That's far from the "Dozens" that are described.

But the pieces of the plate are separated into smaller sections, like Szeth destroyed a side of Gavilar's Shardplate, which by piece would be considered a part of a breastplate, but only the side of it was damaged, not the whole breastplate. Each of those big pieces have smaller segments which are made out of lesser spren. The biggest section of a Shardplate is the front of the breastplate - cuirass, which holds gems inside of it.

Quote

He landed in a crouch, using his momentum to throw himself forward, and swung at the Shardbearer’s side, where the Plate had cracked. He hit with a powerful blow. That piece of the Plate shattered, bits of molten metal streaking away.

Not to mention that each piece of arm or leg armor must be counted twice - at least 5 for one arm and 4 for leg - 18 in total. You can separate most pieces into front and back pieces - that's 9 for one arm, and 6 for a leg - 30 in total just for limbs. At least. Dozens of spren seems fitting quite well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medieval_armour_components

Underwater_Worldhopper · June 25, 2023

Quote

Until we are shown others, it makes more sense to assume that Half-Shards work on the same principle as other Invested Items, and not on some new unknown principle.

WoK Ch.60:

Quote

“Well, no,” Navani said. “The design and workings of Shardblades and Plate are completely different from everything we’ve discovered. The closest anyone has are those shields in Jah Keved. But as far as I can tell, they use a completely different design principle from regular Shardplate. The ancients must have had a wondrous grasp of engineering.”

Quote

Half-Shards are moderately Invested like Full Metalminds, Half-Shard can resist Shardblade blows, as can full Metalmind. Therefore easiest explanation is that Half-Shard resists simply because it is Invested. Occam's razor.

I would agree, but what little we've been told directly of how they work is that they work entirely separately from regular Shardplate, mostly because Shardplate isn't a Fabrial and so its effects can't be recreated directly the way Artifabrians think. Besides, Navani got access to and sent the designs of the Half-Shards to Azimir with Dalinar. They've had conversations with Spren about the ethics of Fabrials before, and it seems unlikely to me that the Half-Shards use True Spren, else they would have protested against their imprisonment. The Stormfather at least would have said something about it, given his reaction to Ishars experiments, especially since Brandon has RAFO'd whether something terrible happens to the Spren when a Half-Shard breaks. The fact that it may be a Radiant Spren was said to Dalinar's face, and yet neither he nor the Stormfather react to it. The Coppermind notes that Taravangian may have been lying when he says that.

Despite all that, if they simply resist Shardblades by virtue of Investiture alone, then just having a gemstone stuck onto the shield would be enough, since that would count as a Fabrial and Invest the shield. Yet, Half-Shards are specifically called Augmenter Fabrials, which use Pewter Wirecages. They're grouped with Grandbows, which also use a Pewter Wirecage Fabrial to increase durability. That suggests that Investiture alone is not what's sustaining the Half-Shards.

Quote

The fact that it does not shatter into molten metal, and just non-molten metal is relatively small difference though.
And Half-Shards are described as Invested as whole, so damage to shield most likely damages Fabrial itself as well. If the shield is part of construction (which I think it is) than Fabrial won't work because its cage is damaged.

Also Fabrial is not just the gemstone, but also the metallic cage around it. So if you think only metal of the shield shatters, why not the much finer metalwork of fabrial?

Where are they described as Invested as a whole? And the Fabrial cage is dependent on the metal touching the gemstone. They just can't tape a little piece of metal onto the Fabrial, so they have to construct cages of the wire to make sure enough of the right metal is touching the Polestone in the right places. The cages then also double to protect the gemstone. To perform a quick experiment, you could just forgo making a cage and simply use rods of the correct metal and touch the gemstone with them in the right places to make it work. The Shields have a specific steel box in the back where the gemstone is housed, so it may be that the actual Fabrial is in there, and it's just attached to the back of the shield, which may not be part of what makes the Fabrial itself function. Even if it is, it is never mentioned anywhere that the shape of the metal affects how the metal affects the gemstone, and since only part of the Shield is ever in contact with the Fabrial, you could technically cut out the entire shield save for the part in contact with the Fabrial and that lone piece of metal should still work as a Half-Shard.

Quote

But shattering is feature of both Shardplate and Half-shard, despite the fact that metals don't ordinarily shatter like that.

I agree, this seems to have to do with how a Shardblade is harming the object it's attacking.

Quote

Would it? With medallions that can store weight of ship, you could plausibly fill metalminds relatively fast (at least Iron ones).

True, but Iron is the only one that works this way, and we don't actually know what the Malwish do with the Iron as it fills up. Having a giant block of Iron on-board would defeat the purpose of making the ship lighter, so they might actually be discarding it somehow.

Quote

You are mistaken, the line actually reads (I can provide photo if you want):

Not dozens, a dozen. So with the one that already slammed into him, that is exactly 13. I think you just proved my line of reasoning for me.

I'd like that picture for confirmation. Also, remember that it's not exactly 13, though that is a funny coincidence. There have to 2 versions of all the arm and leg parts.

Quote

If they could just choose to leave, why does Deadplate exist?

Partly because they're still Connected to each other, and partly because they don't appear to mind being Shardplate, as you said earlier.

48 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Fabrial is gem + metal caging. Gemstones alone aren't fabrials. Metal is an essential part of most fabrial - without metal wiring, it wouldn't work at all. Half-Shard's metal wiring is the whole shield - without it there is no fabial anymore.

Do we know for certain that its metal wiring is the Shield itself? It's an Augmenter Fabrial, which require Pewter Wirecages. And the metal doesn't have to be in the form of a cage, as the Shield itself proves if it is indeed part of the wiring, and that means that only the part that's touching the gemstone counts as part of the Fabrial. Everything else is not strictly necessary.

48 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's possible that the gem itself is destroyed with the shield, because of the sheer amount of light which would likely be drawn out of the gem when the shield is being broken - if the gem loses light fast, it can crack.

That's true. What I'm suggesting only works if the Fabrial itself is fine.

48 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the pieces of the plate are separated into smaller sections, like Szeth destroyed a side of Gavilar's Shardplate, which by piece would be considered a part of a breastplate, but only the side of it was damaged, not the whole breastplate. Each of those big pieces have smaller segments which are made out of lesser spren. The biggest section of a Shardplate is the front of the breastplate - cuirass, which holds gems inside of it.

We see the whole breastplate shatter at once, and Every time we see a Shardbearer suit up, it's referred to as a single breastplate. The fact that one section of it breaks for Gavilar seems to prove that it's made of several Spren.

48 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not to mention that each piece of arm or leg armor must be counted twice - at least 5 for one arm and 4 for leg - 18 in total. You can separate most pieces into front and back pieces - that's 9 for one arm, and 6 for a leg - 30 in total just for limbs. At least. Dozens of spren seems fitting quite well.

Do we have a real-world counterpart for Shardplate that we can compare it to?

alder24 · June 25, 2023

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do we know for certain that its metal wiring is the Shield itself?

The whole kite shield is made out of metal, which isn't something that was done with shields of that size. I see no other reason for it than the metal being an integral part of the fabrial.

6 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

We see the whole breastplate shatter at once, and Every time we see a Shardbearer suit up, it's referred to as a single breastplate. The fact that one section of it breaks for Gavilar seems to prove that it's made of several Spren.

A plate's piece isn't a segment. A piece is the same as in real life plate armor, but a piece is made out of several segments. A breastplate is composed of several segments combined together. So the whole breastplate is put on a Shardbearer as a single piece, but each segment of this breastplate can be shattered separately. Each segment is one lesser spren. Whole piece, like a breastplate, is composed of multiple lesser spren making up individual segments.

12 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do we have a real-world counterpart for Shardplate that we can compare it to?

Plate armor from late middle ages...

Spoiler

You can clearly see the similarities between those two, and even see how many separate segments are on a Shardplate. The upper breastplate segment of the Shardplate is separate from the lower segment, but still both are a part of the same piece, a breastplate, but they protect different parts of the body. Greave, which covers the lower leg, is made out of several segments, combined together with a sabaton, but there is still a clear distinction between frontal greave and back side of it. I don't want to suggest that each small plate is a separate spren (which might be the case), but there are a lot of pieces, fragments and segments of a Shardplate to count. Shardplates are far more detailed and decorative than plate armor, which gives it more room for separation of pieces into smaller distinctive segments.

Underwater_Worldhopper · June 25, 2023

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The whole kite shield is made out of metal, which isn't something that was done with shields of that size. I see no other reason for it than the metal being an integral part of the fabrial.

It could be a requirement of the way it works; maybe the same Fabrial attached to a wooden shield wouldn't be able to withstand a Shardblade.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

A plate's piece isn't a segment. A piece is the same as in real life plate armor, but a piece is made out of several segments. A breastplate is composed of several segments combined together. So the whole breastplate is put on a Shardbearer as a single piece, but each segment of this breastplate can be shattered separately. Each segment is one lesser spren. Whole piece, like a breastplate, is composed of multiple lesser spren making up individual segments.

Fair, but then how does the entire Breastplate break at once in some instances?

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Plate armor from late middle ages...

Hide contents

You can clearly see the similarities between those two, and even see how many separate segments are on a Shardplate. The upper breastplate segment of the Shardplate is separate from the lower segment, but still both are a part of the same piece, a breastplate, but they protect different parts of the body. Greave, which covers the lower leg, is made out of several segments, combined together with a sabaton, but there is still a clear distinction between frontal greave and back side of it. I don't want to suggest that each small plate is a separate spren (which might be the case), but there are a lot of pieces, fragments and segments of a Shardplate to count. Shardplates are far more detailed and decorative than plate armor, which gives it more room for separation of pieces into smaller distinctive segments.

Fair, I could see that many different sections taking one Spren each. But some segments are bigger than others, so can only certain Spren become certain segments, or are some segments of Plate just more Investiture-Dense than others?

cometaryorbit · June 25, 2023

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's about power, how much you can fuel with it (liquid can fuel a lot, solid does one specific thing, potent vs rigid), not about investiture density. Physical investiture, like matter, is the most dense in solid state.

Edit: For resisting a Shardblade investiture density matters the most, not potency.

That's possible, but I don't think we know that liquid Investiture is less dense than solid. That's not an universal rule even with regular matter - water is more dense than ice - though it is the usual trend.

We really can't compare the same Shard's liquid vs solid Investiture - the only Shard we've seen both from is Preservation, and we have no idea of the density of either Well of Ascension liquid* or lerasium. The only god metals we have a decent idea of properties for are harmonium (alkali metal like) and atium (platinum group like), and we haven't really seen the liquid form of either (except one mention of the black lake in Alendi's journal).

But you could totally be right - liquid Investiture could be "most potent" because it's the best balance of being less locked-down in form than solid, but denser than gas.

*the Well of Ascension probably links to the Shard, not just burning the liquid itself? Enough energy to move a planet would translate to so much mass that it'd be many orders of magnitude denser than any normal matter (it'd be a neutron star liquid Well).

therunner · June 25, 2023

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

WoK Ch.60:

Quote

“Well, no,” Navani said. “The design and workings of Shardblades and Plate are completely different from everything we’ve discovered. The closest anyone has are those shields in Jah Keved. But as far as I can tell, they use a completely different design principle from regular Shardplate. The ancients must have had a wondrous grasp of engineering.”

I would agree, but what little we've been told directly of how they work is that they work entirely separately from regular Shardplate, mostly because Shardplate isn't a Fabrial and so its effects can't be recreated directly the way Artifabrians think. Besides, Navani got access to and sent the designs of the Half-Shards to Azimir with Dalinar. They've had conversations with Spren about the ethics of Fabrials before, and it seems unlikely to me that the Half-Shards use True Spren, else they would have protested against their imprisonment. The Stormfather at least would have said something about it, given his reaction to Ishars experiments, especially since Brandon has RAFO'd whether something terrible happens to the Spren when a Half-Shard breaks. The fact that it may be a Radiant Spren was said to Dalinar's face, and yet neither he nor the Stormfather react to it. The Coppermind notes that Taravangian may have been lying when he says that.

Good point that Stormfather does not comment on trapped spren.
However, during WoK they had no clue Shardplate was not fabrial, they even though Shardblades were fabrials. And in a way they are, just like soulcasters, however they are less technical and more magical, for lack of a better word.

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Despite all that, if they simply resist Shardblades by virtue of Investiture alone, then just having a gemstone stuck onto the shield would be enough, since that would count as a Fabrial and Invest the shield. Yet, Half-Shards are specifically called Augmenter Fabrials, which use Pewter Wirecages. They're grouped with Grandbows, which also use a Pewter Wirecage Fabrial to increase durability. That suggests that Investiture alone is not what's sustaining the Half-Shards

They must not be simple Augmenter, for the very simple fact that no other group was able to replicate the effects, and Half-Shards were gigantic breakthrough.
Sticking a gemstone to shield would not be enough, Fabrial creation is quite precise science. Slapping a gemstone to a shield will do exactly nothing.

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Where are they described as Invested as a whole? And the Fabrial cage is dependent on the metal touching the gemstone. They just can't tape a little piece of metal onto the Fabrial, so they have to construct cages of the wire to make sure enough of the right metal is touching the Polestone in the right places. The cages then also double to protect the gemstone. To perform a quick experiment, you could just forgo making a cage and simply use rods of the correct metal and touch the gemstone with them in the right places to make it work. The Shields have a specific steel box in the back where the gemstone is housed, so it may be that the actual Fabrial is in there, and it's just attached to the back of the shield, which may not be part of what makes the Fabrial itself function. Even if it is, it is never mentioned anywhere that the shape of the metal affects how the metal affects the gemstone, and since only part of the Shield is ever in contact with the Fabrial, you could technically cut out the entire shield save for the part in contact with the Fabrial and that lone piece of metal should still work as a Half-Shard

Well, for one, if it was not, it would not break like it does after blows from Shardblade.
It shatters, Shardblade never cuts it like ordinary matter.

If it was 'just' augmenter, than it should not resist like it does, because it is specifically Investiture resisting Investiture that creates the blocking effect. No physical material will stop Shardblade, only aluminum.

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

True, but Iron is the only one that works this way, and we don't actually know what the Malwish do with the Iron as it fills up. Having a giant block of Iron on-board would defeat the purpose of making the ship lighter, so they might actually be discarding it somehow.

Good point.

Hmm, could they store the weight of metalmind itself into metalmind? That would be a neat trick if possible. If the construction was Iron it would double as support and as metalmind storage.

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I'd like that picture for confirmation. Also, remember that it's not exactly 13, though that is a funny coincidence. There have to 2 versions of all the arm and leg parts.

Ask, and ye shall receive:

As you can see it is 'a dozen', singular.
How it works with the fact that there are more sections is a question. However, I think we can be relatively certain that single spren = single section, simply because clearly it is relatively low number of spren forming Shardplate, RoW just did not call them all out.

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do we know for certain that its metal wiring is the Shield itself? It's an Augmenter Fabrial, which require Pewter Wirecages. And the metal doesn't have to be in the form of a cage, as the Shield itself proves if it is indeed part of the wiring, and that means that only the part that's touching the gemstone counts as part of the Fabrial. Everything else is not strictly necessary.

Per Navani in WoK they can take shape of only shield and only ever appear in the same diamond shape. This suggests that the metal of shield is part of the Fabrial construction.

The information on it being Augment does come from Ars Arcanum, however that is limited on occasion.

If you could attach it to any other shape, they could easily make breastplate using the same technology, yet they do not.

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Fair, I could see that many different sections taking one Spren each. But some segments are bigger than others, so can only certain Spren become certain segments, or are some segments of Plate just more Investiture-Dense than others?

I don't think there would be difference in density, some spren are larger than others, so it could be that.
Alternatively, there might some commingling of Investiture once they all join, which lets it balence itself out?

Edited June 25, 2023 by therunner

Underwater_Worldhopper · June 26, 2023

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Good point that Stormfather does not comment on trapped spren.
However, during WoK they had no clue Shardplate was not fabrial, they even though Shardblades were fabrials. And in a way they are, just like soulcasters, however they are less technical and more magical, for lack of a better word.

True, but even if it is just a form of Investing it enough to resist a Shardblade, I still think that it's suspicious that the Stormfather doesn't say anything at all about trapped Radiant Spren when he was grumbling just a few lines earlier. Either he already knows how Half-Shards work and realizes that Taravangian is lying, or he for some reason doesn't care that Radiant Spren are being trapped (and possibly killed), which is highly unlikely. The thing is, I would have assumed the Stormfather doesn't know how Half-Shards work, yet he doesn't at all have any reaction to what Taravangian says, despite the way Taravangian talks about the Spren being trapped making it sound like they're Honorspren (it could also be Peakspren, the Stoneward Radiant Spren that grant access to Tension). This means he either knew already that this is not the case, or that he does not care, although I can't fathom why.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

They must not be simple Augmenter, for the very simple fact that no other group was able to replicate the effects, and Half-Shards were gigantic breakthrough.
Sticking a gemstone to shield would not be enough, Fabrial creation is quite precise science. Slapping a gemstone to a shield will do exactly nothing.

Oh I doubt it's just any Augmenter. It'd be highly specialized and complicated. But what confuses me is that a Fabrial Wirecage is never described on a Half-Shard, only that there's a metal box with a gemstone inside. But if the Shield isn't part of the Fabrial, any part of it that's left still attached to the Fabrial would remain acting like a Half-Shard until that's attacked too.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, for one, if it was not, it would not break like it does after blows from Shardblade.
It shatters, Shardblade never cuts it like ordinary matter.

The shattering is probably just an effect of the Blade and not the Half-Shard itself. And we don't know what the mechanism of the Half-Shard is, it could just as easily be Augmenting Spiritual Durability instead. That could be why it shatters after two hits; the Spiritual Aspect's been damaged enough that it doesn't stay as one piece anymore.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

If it was 'just' augmenter, than it should not resist like it does, because it is specifically Investiture resisting Investiture that creates the blocking effect. No physical material will stop Shardblade, only aluminum.

Like I said just above, it could be Augmenting something Spiritual instead of something physical.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Good point.

Hmm, could they store the weight of metalmind itself into metalmind? That would be a neat trick if possible. If the construction was Iron it would double as support and as metalmind storage.

Could be, an Iron block would weigh far less and so you could fill it perpetually for quite a while in relatively small Ironminds, but I think that's too much extra hassle. It could be that filling a Metalmind scales, so one arbitrary unit of Wax's weight would be far less than one stored unit of a Ship's weight. I mean to say that if both Wax and a Ship were storing at maximum capacity into identical Ironminds, both would take exactly the same time to fill one completely, but the Investiture in the Ship's Metalmind might carry more weight in it. If you unkeyed the Ship's weight and gave it to Wax and he tapped it at a regular rate, he would become far heavier than he would by tapping at the same rate from one of his own Ironminds. It would solve this problem since they wouldn't need a lot of Iron, but it's only speculation, and unlikely at that.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ask, and ye shall receive:

As you can see it is 'a dozen', singular.
How it works with the fact that there are more sections is a question. However, I think we can be relatively certain that single spren = single section, simply because clearly it is relatively low number of spren forming Shardplate, RoW just did not call them all out.

Huh. Mine says "Dozens of others". We'll go with the actual book, because mine's an Epub and I trust the actual books over an online version. But the thing is, if there really are as many individual segments as Alder is saying, you'd need a lot more Spren to form individual segments. If we accept that the number given may be inaccurate, then there's nothing against the idea that multiple Spren could form a single segment either. They could be made mostly of Individual Spren, but their Investiture could congeal for the smaller segments, and multiple Spren could work together to form the larger pieces.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

Per Navani in WoK they can take shape of only shield and only ever appear in the same diamond shape. This suggests that the metal of shield is part of the Fabrial construction.

Can you quote that? I don't remember it being mentioned.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

The information on it being Augment does come from Ars Arcanum, however that is limited on occasion.

It could then just be an Augmenter in a way that we haven't been explicitly told about, since as you say, the AAs have been a tad limited at times.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

If you could attach it to any other shape, they could easily make breastplate using the same technology, yet they do not.

That's a strong point, but I won't assume it's impossible until I see that quote. If it does indeed Augment a Spiritual quality, it might only work on a sufficiently large Shield, maybe because it's Augmenting a Spiritual sense of protection, although why that wouldn't work on a Breastplate is beyond me. It probably has to do with size.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think there would be difference in density, some spren are larger than others, so it could be that.
Alternatively, there might some commingling of Investiture once they all join, which lets it balence itself out?

Some Spren are larger than others, but then each segment would need a Spren that just happens to have exactly the right amount of Investiture to form it, which is a stretch. I'm far more inclined to the idea of the Investiture comingling once the Plate is complete, but then it circles back to the idea that multiple Spren could form a single section together, since their Investiture can apparently comingle anyway.

therunner · June 26, 2023

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

True, but even if it is just a form of Investing it enough to resist a Shardblade, I still think that it's suspicious that the Stormfather doesn't say anything at all about trapped Radiant Spren when he was grumbling just a few lines earlier. Either he already knows how Half-Shards work and realizes that Taravangian is lying, or he for some reason doesn't care that Radiant Spren are being trapped (and possibly killed), which is highly unlikely. The thing is, I would have assumed the Stormfather doesn't know how Half-Shards work, yet he doesn't at all have any reaction to what Taravangian says, despite the way Taravangian talks about the Spren being trapped making it sound like they're Honorspren (it could also be Peakspren, the Stoneward Radiant Spren that grant access to Tension). This means he either knew already that this is not the case, or that he does not care, although I can't fathom why.

Or they can be lesser spren forced somehow to Invest the Shield.
Plate proves that lesser spren are Invested enough to resist Shardblade a bit.

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Oh I doubt it's just any Augmenter. It'd be highly specialized and complicated. But what confuses me is that a Fabrial Wirecage is never described on a Half-Shard, only that there's a metal box with a gemstone inside. But if the Shield isn't part of the Fabrial, any part of it that's left still attached to the Fabrial would remain acting like a Half-Shard until that's attacked too.

Yeah, but the fine metalwork of Fabrial would get damaged by blows more easily than the shield itself.

And this does not explain why only diamond shapes shields are used for Half-Shards, nor why can the same Fabrial not be used for breastplate/armor.

Simplest explanation is that the entirety of shield is part of Fabrial.

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The shattering is probably just an effect of the Blade and not the Half-Shard itself. And we don't know what the mechanism of the Half-Shard is, it could just as easily be Augmenting Spiritual Durability instead. That could be why it shatters after two hits; the Spiritual Aspect's been damaged enough that it doesn't stay as one piece anymore.

If it effect of the Blade, then Roseite should also shatter in similar way. Which is how this entire discussion got started.

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Could be, an Iron block would weigh far less and so you could fill it perpetually for quite a while in relatively small Ironminds, but I think that's too much extra hassle. It could be that filling a Metalmind scales, so one arbitrary unit of Wax's weight would be far less than one stored unit of a Ship's weight. I mean to say that if both Wax and a Ship were storing at maximum capacity into identical Ironminds, both would take exactly the same time to fill one completely, but the Investiture in the Ship's Metalmind might carry more weight in it. If you unkeyed the Ship's weight and gave it to Wax and he tapped it at a regular rate, he would become far heavier than he would by tapping at the same rate from one of his own Ironminds. It would solve this problem since they wouldn't need a lot of Iron, but it's only speculation, and unlikely at that.

Well Wax carries metalminds that can store thousands of kg/hours, and not be really full.
So something like 3 kg of Iron could plausibly store weight of the entire ship for some short trip.

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Huh. Mine says "Dozens of others". We'll go with the actual book, because mine's an Epub and I trust the actual books over an online version.

Interesting, is it by any chance a translation?

Quote

But the thing is, if there really are as many individual segments as Alder is saying, you'd need a lot more Spren to form individual segments. If we accept that the number given may be inaccurate, then there's nothing against the idea that multiple Spren could form a single segment either. They could be made mostly of Individual Spren, but their Investiture could congeal for the smaller segments, and multiple Spren could work together to form the larger pieces.

Per Alder it would be more like ~30 ish pieces. And since gauntlet does seem to be formed from single spren (it looks exactly the same later on when made translucent, as when the spren first forms it), I don't really see any evidence for sections being formed from multiple spren.

And all sections shatter the same way, and clearly single section is not dozens of spren. So the shattered pieces of metal are almost certainly coming from just few spren, so individual shards cannot be just one spren.

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Can you quote that? I don't remember it being mentioned.

Not at the moment, you can look it up, it is in WoK in the party chapter (I think 22?), Coppermind has pointer to it.

She only mentions that they are only shields, and no other armor, nor do they provide the other augments of Shardplate.

The part about being only ever diamond shaped is my observation, I don't think any other shape of Half-Shard was ever shown or mentioned.

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's a strong point, but I won't assume it's impossible until I see that quote. If it does indeed Augment a Spiritual quality, it might only work on a sufficiently large Shield, maybe because it's Augmenting a Spiritual sense of protection, although why that wouldn't work on a Breastplate is beyond me. It probably has to do with size.

Or, shield is part of fabrial construction, and they have not figured out how to make fabrial work with different shape of metal.

55 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Some Spren are larger than others, but then each segment would need a Spren that just happens to have exactly the right amount of Investiture to form it, which is a stretch. I'm far more inclined to the idea of the Investiture comingling once the Plate is complete, but then it circles back to the idea that multiple Spren could form a single section together, since their Investiture can apparently comingle anyway.

Radiants mess with causality quite often (Kal being good with spear, because he will be good with spear, Shallan drawing things she did not withness as they are happening, Dalinar Connecting Kal with his brother).
Attracting appropriately sized spren is a minor thing.

Edited June 26, 2023 by therunner

The strength of Roseite?

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