Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 21, 2023 Posted June 21, 2023 I am trying to figure out what bonuses and benefits being an aetherbound can provide given the hydration is not an issue. It seemed the Twinsouls golem was capable of moving and a 12 foot high chunk of rock and crystal would be a significant amount of weight. So I am guessing that the invested roseite is offering a good portion of additional strength. I am curious if the golem would be capable of lifting any size mace or if the mace he created had to be sized proportionally to the golems size. I am also curious how the golem could be stopped given the hydration to maintain it. It is highly invested while being fed. Would it be able to be soulcast easily? Would the CC abilities from so many orders make a difference? If sunk down into the earth and then the earth hardened around it could it just grow and break free? Could vines or awakened rope hold it or could it just shrink and grow at will to escape them as well? How large could it get? Would a roseite aetherbound be able to grow a golem big enough to face off against a chasmfiend or a Thunderclast? I know the answers here are dependant on hydration and fuel. We already have the possibilities of bendalloy compounding and the unkeyed pure investiture that the ghostbloods are chasing. In a different sort of vs battle I would pose this match up. Rosite aetherbound vs shardbearer. Feel free to combine what limitations you want such as a water pack or some limit of spaces. I am very interested in this... Twinsoul walking down the caves and turns the corner to find a full shardbearer. Does size of the cave matter? If he can only become as big as the shardbearer who wins? If he can become twice the size of the shardbearer is that going to make a substantial difference in outcome? I figure there is a limiting time that both parties are facing. Once cracked plate will eventually drain. But I imagine it costs an amount of hydration to continue repairing chips and chunks that are taken out of the roseite golem by shardblade hacks and slashes. I don't think a shardblade will pass through it like stone as it is still an invested object.
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 21, 2023 Posted June 21, 2023 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: It seemed the Twinsouls golem was capable of moving and a 12 foot high chunk of rock and crystal would be a significant amount of weight. So I am guessing that the invested roseite is offering a good portion of additional strength. I am curious if the golem would be capable of lifting any size mace or if the mace he created had to be sized proportionally to the golems size. Twinsoul himself wasn't doing any of the lifting, he was controlling the Roseite. It was moving itself, and so extra strength wouldn't be needed on the Aetherbound's part, assuming Roseite's capacity for generating force is proportional to its mass, enough to move itself. However, this may be dependent on having Investiture as fuel, so he may not be able to construct moving Roseite objects with only water. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: It is highly invested while being fed. Would it be able to be soulcast easily? Would the CC abilities from so many orders make a difference? If sunk down into the earth and then the earth hardened around it could it just grow and break free? Could vines or awakened rope hold it or could it just shrink and grow at will to escape them as well? Regardless of being Invested while fed, Roseite is made from pure Aetheric Investiture, so it would be difficult to Soulcast regardless. Whether or not it could escape hardened earth depends don't two factors, one being the tensile strength of the hardened earth, and the other being Roseite's ability to grow when there's no more space left. The first depends on whether it's just the weight of the dirt on top of it or if it's been turned into stone or something, and the second is that Roseite just may not be able to grow once it runs out of space. Most likely though, it would either be unable to break free if the strength of the material around it is too strong, but it should be able to so long as said force isn't that strong. I could see it breaking out of several feet of packed earth and certain minerals, but not something like metal. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: How large could it get? Would a roseite aetherbound be able to grow a golem big enough to face off against a chasmfiend or a Thunderclast? Theoretically it could, so long as they understand the mechanism of what they're making and have enough fuel. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Does size of the cave matter? If he can only become as big as the shardbearer who wins? If he can become twice the size of the shardbearer is that going to make a substantial difference in outcome? Size will matter because it determines how well the Shardbearer can maneuver their massive Shardblade, and how much Twinsoul can grow his golem (and therefore how much force it can exert). Shardblade should theoretically be unable to cut the Roseite, magically, although Roseite may be brittle, which a Shardbearer can take advantage of if Twinsoul can't regenerate the Roseite quickly enough. If Twinsoul can become sufficiently large, at some point he could just squash a Shardbearer, or just destroy their Shardplate decently efficiently with something like his mace. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I figure there is a limiting time that both parties are facing. Once cracked plate will eventually drain. But I imagine it costs an amount of hydration to continue repairing chips and chunks that are taken out of the roseite golem by shardblade hacks and slashes. I don't think a shardblade will pass through it like stone as it is still an invested object. If Twinsoul is using water only, he'll be at a severe disadvantage. Not only would he not have enough water to keep the golem last very long, but the lack of pure Investiture fueling its movement would also slow him down or even prevent him from being able to move the golem, and regular water-based Aether growing takes time. With a large jar of Dor, or two of the ones the Ghostbloods had, I'd say the Aetherbound is more likely to win, but without it the Shardbearer is almost guaranteed to win.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 21, 2023 Author Posted June 21, 2023 37 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Twinsoul himself wasn't doing any of the lifting, he was controlling the Roseite. It was moving itself, and so extra strength wouldn't be needed on the Aetherbound's part, assuming Roseite's capacity for generating force is proportional to its mass, enough to move itself. However, this may be dependent on having Investiture as fuel, so he may not be able to construct moving Roseite objects with only water. Regardless of being Invested while fed, Roseite is made from pure Aetheric Investiture, so it would be difficult to Soulcast regardless. Whether or not it could escape hardened earth depends don't two factors, one being the tensile strength of the hardened earth, and the other being Roseite's ability to grow when there's no more space left. The first depends on whether it's just the weight of the dirt on top of it or if it's been turned into stone or something, and the second is that Roseite just may not be able to grow once it runs out of space. Most likely though, it would either be unable to break free if the strength of the material around it is too strong, but it should be able to so long as said force isn't that strong. I could see it breaking out of several feet of packed earth and certain minerals, but not something like metal. Theoretically it could, so long as they understand the mechanism of what they're making and have enough fuel. Size will matter because it determines how well the Shardbearer can maneuver their massive Shardblade, and how much Twinsoul can grow his golem (and therefore how much force it can exert). Shardblade should theoretically be unable to cut the Roseite, magically, although Roseite may be brittle, which a Shardbearer can take advantage of if Twinsoul can't regenerate the Roseite quickly enough. If Twinsoul can become sufficiently large, at some point he could just squash a Shardbearer, or just destroy their Shardplate decently efficiently with something like his mace. If Twinsoul is using water only, he'll be at a severe disadvantage. Not only would he not have enough water to keep the golem last very long, but the lack of pure Investiture fueling its movement would also slow him down or even prevent him from being able to move the golem, and regular water-based Aether growing takes time. With a large jar of Dor, or two of the ones the Ghostbloods had, I'd say the Aetherbound is more likely to win, but without it the Shardbearer is almost guaranteed to win. This is a jump far into the theoretical, but what if an aetherbound were to gain access to bendalloy compounding? With as much metal as Miles had do you think that is more or less fuel than what that jar of Dor provided? With the advancements of hemalurgy and medallions I don't think it is out of possibility in the future. It is utterly impossible to know how well a jar of Dor compares to many metalminds being compounded but I am a fan of speculation. With the ghostbloods on the hunt for unkeyed investiture I am sure Kelsier has already started to speculate himself... why can't we on the shard?
cometaryorbit Posted June 22, 2023 Posted June 22, 2023 Concentrated liquid investiture is really strong, I think it'd take a lot of compounding to match that. 1
therunner he/him Posted June 22, 2023 Posted June 22, 2023 6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Regardless of being Invested while fed, Roseite is made from pure Aetheric Investiture, so it would be difficult to Soulcast regardless I don't think this is the case. E.g. from what we see in SP1 Spoiler Aethers create something physical from themselves when given water. Yes, the reaction requires water or Investiture (water to pull Investiture from SR like metal in Allomancy, or Investiture directly), however the material created seems to be just physical matter (e.g. plants, air, etc.). So it would not be too difficult to Soulcast. Though being fed Investiture would complicate it. Quote Size will matter because it determines how well the Shardbearer can maneuver their massive Shardblade, and how much Twinsoul can grow his golem (and therefore how much force it can exert). Shardblade should theoretically be unable to cut the Roseite, magically, although Roseite may be brittle, which a Shardbearer can take advantage of if Twinsoul can't regenerate the Roseite quickly enough. If Twinsoul can become sufficiently large, at some point he could just squash a Shardbearer, or just destroy their Shardplate decently efficiently with something like his mace. Based on the point above, I think Shardblade would cut Roseite, perhaps with some measure of resistance because of the Investiture being fed directly into Roseite. So I would say Shardbearer wins majority of times.
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 22, 2023 Posted June 22, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: This is a jump far into the theoretical, but what if an aetherbound were to gain access to bendalloy compounding? With as much metal as Miles had do you think that is more or less fuel than what that jar of Dor provided? With the advancements of hemalurgy and medallions I don't think it is out of possibility in the future. It is utterly impossible to know how well a jar of Dor compares to many metalminds being compounded but I am a fan of speculation. With the ghostbloods on the hunt for unkeyed investiture I am sure Kelsier has already started to speculate himself... why can't we on the shard? Liquid Investiture is really Invested, and the Metallic Arts are relatively low-Investiture. F-Bendalloy is a relatively easy one to fill up though, but it doesn't end up comparing to something like the Dor. At most, it just gets rid of the hassle of carrying around lots of water. However, Compounding is where it gets interesting. Given that Compounding gives exponential returns, you could get more Roseite growth out of your Bendalloyminds than you could witha jar of Dor. It would still be limited to the regular water growth rate, but in the long term you could produce more Roseite than someone with just a jar of Dor. 2 hours ago, therunner said: I don't think this is the case. E.g. from what we see in SP1 Hide contents Aethers create something physical from themselves when given water. Yes, the reaction requires water or Investiture (water to pull Investiture from SR like metal in Allomancy, or Investiture directly), however the material created seems to be just physical matter (e.g. plants, air, etc.). So it would not be too difficult to Soulcast. Though being fed Investiture would complicate it. Based on the point above, I think Shardblade would cut Roseite, perhaps with some measure of resistance because of the Investiture being fed directly into Roseite. So I would say Shardbearer wins majority of times. The Aethers are Investiture in physical form. They're the same thing as God metals, they're just made of Aetheric Investiture, so they manifest as something other than metal. They use water as a conduit to pull Investiture into the Physical Realm to grow. In an Aetherbound, that means water from your body to create Aether in a controlled way. For the strain of Aethers on Lumar, that means that any amount of moisture will act as a catalyst and the Aether will grow incredibly rapidly once it comes into contact with it. In both cases, Investiture is directly becoming matter. It's a little weird considering what certain Aethers become, but that's how it works. The air made by Zephyr spores is technically Gaseous Investiture. WoB: Quote Overlord Jebus All the physical manifestations--solid physical manifestations we've seen of Investiture has been metallic. It's been atium, lerasium, Shardblades. Is that just a coincidence? Brandon Sanderson No, it's intentional. Overlord Jebus It's intentional so we're not going to see Investiture wood or Investiture plastic? Brandon Sanderson Right, I mean technically, like, what do you call the aethers? Those are not metal. But I do it as metal intentionally. Questioner They could be a metal with very low boiling point. Brandon Sanderson *sarcastically* Yes, the vine ones are-- Overlord Jebus Well we've had liquid, we've had gas, the solids all seem to be metallic, so. Brandon Sanderson That is intentional, it's just one of those little laws of the cosmere, that's not meant to mean anything Edited June 22, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper
therunner he/him Posted June 22, 2023 Posted June 22, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: The Aethers are Investiture in physical form. They're the same thing as God metals, they're just made of Aetheric Investiture, so they manifest as something other than metal. They use water as a conduit to pull Investiture into the Physical Realm to grow. In an Aetherbound, that means water from your body to create Aether in a controlled way. For the strain of Aethers on Lumar, that means that any amount of moisture will act as a catalyst and the Aether will grow incredibly rapidly once it comes into contact with it. In both cases, Investiture is directly becoming matter. It's a little weird considering what certain Aethers become, but that's how it works. The air made by Zephyr spores is technically Gaseous Investiture. That does not make sense for the simple reason considering the Verdant Aether can be eaten. Unless somehow people from Lumar have ability to digest physical Investiture, which is unheard of, they cannot be Investiture in the same sense as God Metals are. Additionally, even if they were physical Investiture in the same sense as God Metals, considering how little Liquid Dor was required to create Roseite Golem, the Investiture density of physical Aether would be far lower than that of God Metal. Hence again, it could resist Shardblade somewhat, but it would not fully block it most likely. Edit: And per this WoB, zephyr aether does not create gaseous Investiture, but breathable air Spoiler Ladder Contact 6814 What are the other six types of spores we didn't get to see in the book? Were there any that you really wanted to include, but couldn't? Brandon Sanderson No. When I've written books, I tend to gravitate toward a couple of the aethers that are really the most dynamic for action scenes and things like that. Some of the other aethers are there for the necessity of the future of the Cosmere. For instance: zephyr, while very useful in this for firing cannons and stuff, is really there so that we can have propellant in space by just-add-water and make yourself some extra propellant. And atmosphere; kind of a low-tech (there's better-tech ways), but a low-tech way to: "hey, we've got zephyr aether, it makes breathable air. And so, if we've got water and a barrel of this stuff, then we'll be able to breathe." So there are some of the aethers that are there for that sort of reason, so that we can have pneumatic weaponry and some easy access to emergency propellant in space, and stuff like that. But verdant is the one that I just keep coming back to, that one and roseite, as making for the most dynamic storytelling. We'll see what I do with some of the others. I'm not gonna answer what the ones I haven't mentioned are, because I am saving them for future books to be used and to be interesting and engaging with them. Tress Spoiler Stream (March 31, 2023) So no, Aether are not physical Investiture like God Metals, or Gaseuous Investiture. They create 'regular' physical matter using Investiture from SR. Edited June 22, 2023 by therunner
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 22, 2023 Posted June 22, 2023 7 hours ago, therunner said: That does not make sense for the simple reason considering the Verdant Aether can be eaten. Unless somehow people from Lumar have ability to digest physical Investiture, which is unheard of, they cannot be Investiture in the same sense as God Metals are. Edit: And per this WoB, zephyr aether does not create gaseous Investiture, but breathable air It's not so unprecedented. Investiture turning into energy, Investiture being turned into oxygen, and Investiture turning into calories and vice versa have a surprising amount of examples in the Cosmere. A Bendalloy Feruchemist can turn calories into Investiture and back, and a Cadmium Feruchemist can turn oxygen into Investiture and back. The Harmonium-Bavadinium reaction shows that Investiture can be turned into pure energy. Lift can metabolize food into Investiture. The Harmonium-Water reaction doesn't act like regular chemistry, it doesn't create a Harmonium Oxide. The metal itself just channels energy from the SR, getting used up in the process (kinda like Allomancy). The same could be the case for the Verdant Aether. Once its growth has peaked, the body could metabolize it directly into usable energy, using the Investiture up in the process, which returns to the SR. Same for the Zephyr Aether, maybe it's just Gaseous Investiture that can be breathed in, be used to respire, and is then used up as a result of the reaction it just made possible. Clearly, something is different about Atheric Investiture. It doesn't form as a God Metal for one. It predates the Shattering and allegedly Adonalsium itself, or was at least conceived at the same time. The Investiture isn't aligned to any of the Shards and presumably wasn't Adonalsium's to control either. I don't really see the problem. The Investiture is known to be weird and out of place, and there are already instances of food/oxygen being turned into Investiture and vice versa. On top of that, Lerasium can be burned by anyone (and so can all God Metals, depending on how Brandon decides to make that work). All those factors taken together, is it really so strange for a similar physical manifestation of Investiture to be digestable by everyone, or breathable by everyone? No Investiture would even be wasted, since Aether spores and the Aether they create decompose after a little while. Here's the Harmonium-Water reaction WoB that gives us a bit of insight into the chemistry of God Metals: Quote Ironeyes So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for. Ironeyes So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to... Brandon Sanderson Yes. Ironeyes So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion then it's a different metal, right? Brandon Sanderson Right, and... Ironeyes So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards. Brandon Sanderson Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah. But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the Cosmere. And to Scadrial. Ironeyes So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential. Brandon Sanderson I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a Cosmere equivalent. To - I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the Cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right? Matter, energy, Investiture. You have a third axis that, you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more - that are controlled by me, right, that are built on this idea. So once you add *inaudible*, matter now can exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein. Boskone 54 (Feb. 19, 2017) Besides, it doesn't really matter how it's done, there's a WoB that outright says that the Aethers are physical Investiture, calling the Verdant Aether out in particular. The rest is just us guessing and extrapolating about the exact mechanics. WoB says it's Investiture, so it is. You can't really disagree with the person who determines how it all works. But if you're still disenfranchised by it appearing to work against previously understood mechanics, think of it this way. Their existence could be motivated through plot devices rather than thematically. If it supplies an easy explanation for breathing in Space and emergency rations, then it does, and the handwaving required for making it make sense is an afterthought. Why does Wax's Harmonium-Bavadinium reaction produce Atium and Lerasium when the Set's hundreds of experiments didn't? It's never explained, it's basically deus-ex-machina without even God knowing how it was done. Will it be explained later? Most likely, that's Brandon's specialty. Does that change the fact that it's essentially a plot device right now? No, not really. But we have hope, and we can theorize in the meantime. 7 hours ago, therunner said: Additionally, even if they were physical Investiture in the same sense as God Metals, considering how little Liquid Dor was required to create Roseite Golem, the Investiture density of physical Aether would be far lower than that of God Metal. Hence again, it could resist Shardblade somewhat, but it would not fully block it most likely. This is a far, far better point. Roseite indeed seems to not be very Investiture-Dense, although that could just be because the Dor is very Investiture-Dense, as I theorized in a different post, and the contrast just makes Roseite seem less Investiture-Dense. It comes down to two different versions: Either the Roseite is decently Investiture-Dense and it could withstand a Shardblade attack (Magically. The sword would still damage the Roseite if it's brittle enough), or it isn't and the Shardblade could cut it, if inefficiently. However, I don't think the second one is likely. Even if the Roseite is as Investiture-light (as in opposite of dense, not Light light) as it seems, it's made purely of Investiture. That alone should make it immune to a Shardblade's cutting edge, even if it's not that Investiture-Dense. A weapon made of an Atium Alloy can block a Shardblade, and the alloy would have its Investiture diluted by the presence of a different metal. Something made purely of Investiture, even if the Investiture isn't that great in quantity, should be totally immune to a Shardblade, or nearly so, like Aluminum. On 6/21/2023 at 7:04 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Could vines or awakened rope hold it or could it just shrink and grow at will to escape them as well? Also, I forgot to answer this bit. I don't think you can shrink the Roseite other than by making some of it decompose and disintegrate, but that's slow enough that Awakened ropes could easily keep hold of it. The vines depend on whether the vines are actively constricting or not, but theoretically, you could escape that way.
cometaryorbit Posted June 22, 2023 Posted June 22, 2023 (edited) Aethers are weird. IMO the matter made by an aether is solid (or whatever state of matter) Investiture in one sense, but not in the same sense god metals are. It is, in the sense that there's an Investiture->matter conversion happening (or pulling matter from the Spiritual... but since everything in the Spiritual exists as/is made of Investiture it's the same thing imo). So they are in a literal sense Investiture made solid (or whatever state). But it's not a "body of a Shard" kind of thing like the god metals we've seen, with inherent power stored within it. It's not even permanent as matter without Investiture input. Roseite would crumble away if not sustained; god metals can just sit around for ages and stay intact. I'm also not sure the Roseite that gets created is really the aether. It seems like the piece in Prasanva is a living aether piece connected back to the primal aether Silajana. The Roseite power-armor seems temporary and "artificial", not really alive in the same way. Edited June 22, 2023 by cometaryorbit 3
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 23, 2023 Author Posted June 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It's not so unprecedented. Investiture turning into energy, Investiture being turned into oxygen, and Investiture turning into calories and vice versa have a surprising amount of examples in the Cosmere. A Bendalloy Feruchemist can turn calories into Investiture and back, and a Cadmium Feruchemist can turn oxygen into Investiture and back. The Harmonium-Bavadinium reaction shows that Investiture can be turned into pure energy. Lift can metabolize food into Investiture. The Harmonium-Water reaction doesn't act like regular chemistry, it doesn't create a Harmonium Oxide. The metal itself just channels energy from the SR, getting used up in the process (kinda like Allomancy). The same could be the case for the Verdant Aether. Once its growth has peaked, the body could metabolize it directly into usable energy, using the Investiture up in the process, which returns to the SR. Same for the Zephyr Aether, maybe it's just Gaseous Investiture that can be breathed in, be used to respire, and is then used up as a result of the reaction it just made possible. Clearly, something is different about Atheric Investiture. It doesn't form as a God Metal for one. It predates the Shattering and allegedly Adonalsium itself, or was at least conceived at the same time. The Investiture isn't aligned to any of the Shards and presumably wasn't Adonalsium's to control either. I don't really see the problem. The Investiture is known to be weird and out of place, and there are already instances of food/oxygen being turned into Investiture and vice versa. On top of that, Lerasium can be burned by anyone (and so can all God Metals, depending on how Brandon decides to make that work). All those factors taken together, is it really so strange for a similar physical manifestation of Investiture to be digestable by everyone, or breathable by everyone? No Investiture would even be wasted, since Aether spores and the Aether they create decompose after a little while. Here's the Harmonium-Water reaction WoB that gives us a bit of insight into the chemistry of God Metals: Besides, it doesn't really matter how it's done, there's a WoB that outright says that the Aethers are physical Investiture, calling the Verdant Aether out in particular. The rest is just us guessing and extrapolating about the exact mechanics. WoB says it's Investiture, so it is. You can't really disagree with the person who determines how it all works. But if you're still disenfranchised by it appearing to work against previously understood mechanics, think of it this way. Their existence could be motivated through plot devices rather than thematically. If it supplies an easy explanation for breathing in Space and emergency rations, then it does, and the handwaving required for making it make sense is an afterthought. Why does Wax's Harmonium-Bavadinium reaction produce Atium and Lerasium when the Set's hundreds of experiments didn't? It's never explained, it's basically deus-ex-machina without even God knowing how it was done. Will it be explained later? Most likely, that's Brandon's specialty. Does that change the fact that it's essentially a plot device right now? No, not really. But we have hope, and we can theorize in the meantime. This is a far, far better point. Roseite indeed seems to not be very Investiture-Dense, although that could just be because the Dor is very Investiture-Dense, as I theorized in a different post, and the contrast just makes Roseite seem less Investiture-Dense. It comes down to two different versions: Either the Roseite is decently Investiture-Dense and it could withstand a Shardblade attack (Magically. The sword would still damage the Roseite if it's brittle enough), or it isn't and the Shardblade could cut it, if inefficiently. However, I don't think the second one is likely. Even if the Roseite is as Investiture-light (as in opposite of dense, not Light light) as it seems, it's made purely of Investiture. That alone should make it immune to a Shardblade's cutting edge, even if it's not that Investiture-Dense. A weapon made of an Atium Alloy can block a Shardblade, and the alloy would have its Investiture diluted by the presence of a different metal. Something made purely of Investiture, even if the Investiture isn't that great in quantity, should be totally immune to a Shardblade, or nearly so, like Aluminum. Also, I forgot to answer this bit. I don't think you can shrink the Roseite other than by making some of it decompose and disintegrate, but that's slow enough that Awakened ropes could easily keep hold of it. The vines depend on whether the vines are actively constricting or not, but theoretically, you could escape that way. I really appreciate all of this. When asking about shrinking and growing, I must misremember the cave scene in TLM. I thought the golem was growing and shrinking both to fill in the space and create a wall of roseite for the prisoners to escape behind. 2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Aethers are weird. IMO the matter made by an aether is solid (or whatever state of matter) Investiture in one sense, but not in the same sense god metals are. It is, in the sense that there's an Investiture->matter conversion happening (or pulling matter from the Spiritual... but since everything in the Spiritual exists as/is made of Investiture it's the same thing imo). So they are in a literal sense Investiture made solid (or whatever state). But it's not a "body of a Shard" kind of thing like the god metals we've seen, with inherent power stored within it. It's not even permanent as matter without Investiture input. Roseite would crumble away if not sustained; god metals can just sit around for ages and stay intact. I'm also not sure the Roseite that gets created is really the aether. It seems like the piece in Prasanva is a living aether piece connected back to the primal aether Silajana. The Roseite power-armor seems temporary and "artificial", not really alive in the same way. I appreciate this indeed. I kind of assumed that the water was funneled and changed into the investiture form until it turned to dust. I agree that it probably won't act like a shardblade but I do think Roseite should be able to block attacks from one. Cracking and loosing chunks seems like a good balance but the beauty of a bendalloy compounder getting ahold of that power would be the potential wealth of hydration to continue repairing and replacing the spaces. Furthermore, does Aetherbinding drain water at the same rate based on size or is it a combination of size and growth speed? A bendalloy compounder could stretch their stores further if it is based on speed of growth as well since they could put up a bubble and take their time growing their aether slowly while having a near instantaneous appearance to the world outside around them.
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 I'm going to voice the dissent. Even with purified Dor the battle goes to the shardbearer. The crystal itself doesn't seem to be invested so a Shardblade would cut it. The shard bearer then has two options. A simple lunge through the chest of the golem to twin twinsoul ends it. If twinsoul cam make a golem w ok th a deeper chest then the length of the Shardblade it will take longer, but it took an entire jar for the golem and a second to sustain it so the shardbearer just needs to lop of a limb, forcing twinsoul to replace it, like 6 times to reduce the armor to nothing. The only way twinsoul wins is if he kills the shardbearer before they figure out what is happening, but he isn't going to have a fast win against shardplate.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 23, 2023 Author Posted June 23, 2023 28 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: I'm going to voice the dissent. Even with purified Dor the battle goes to the shardbearer. The crystal itself doesn't seem to be invested so a Shardblade would cut it. The shard bearer then has two options. A simple lunge through the chest of the golem to twin twinsoul ends it. If twinsoul cam make a golem w ok th a deeper chest then the length of the Shardblade it will take longer, but it took an entire jar for the golem and a second to sustain it so the shardbearer just needs to lop of a limb, forcing twinsoul to replace it, like 6 times to reduce the armor to nothing. The only way twinsoul wins is if he kills the shardbearer before they figure out what is happening, but he isn't going to have a fast win against shardplate. I just feel like the WoBs provided by @Underwater_Worldhopper sort of crush that theory. I would be more inclined to believe that the Roseite was treated as uninvested if it wasnt for the fact that investiture is directly needed to sustain it even after it is formed. Is Wax not invested when simply using the minimum steel needed for steel sight since he isn't actively pushing? The need for investiture to maintain it proves that it is invested even after grown. I can't speak for how invested it is but I was under the impression that the roseite was still an extension of the Aether through the Aetherbound as more of a catalyst which would lend it to being highly invested even if it only requires a small amount of water / investiture to maintain. All that and I really don't think it would be a bad thing for the cosmere to see some more armor options that can stand up to the instakill machine that trivializes 140 hours worth of fantasy reading that is shardblades.
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I just feel like the WoBs provided by @Underwater_Worldhopper sort of crush that theory. I would be more inclined to believe that the Roseite was treated as uninvested if it wasnt for the fact that investiture is directly needed to sustain it even after it is formed. Is Wax not invested when simply using the minimum steel needed for steel sight since he isn't actively pushing? The need for investiture to maintain it proves that it is invested even after grown. I can't speak for how invested it is but I was under the impression that the roseite was still an extension of the Aether through the Aetherbound as more of a catalyst which would lend it to being highly invested even if it only requires a small amount of water / investiture to maintain. All that and I really don't think it would be a bad thing for the cosmere to see some more armor options that can stand up to the instakill machine that trivializes 140 hours worth of fantasy reading that is shardblades. It takes investiture to move it, not sustain it. And we might be reading different wobs but the one I'm seeing specifically says that zephyr spores created normal air, not invested.
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: I'm going to voice the dissent. Even with purified Dor the battle goes to the shardbearer. The crystal itself doesn't seem to be invested so a Shardblade would cut it. The shard bearer then has two options. A simple lunge through the chest of the golem to twin twinsoul ends it. If twinsoul cam make a golem w ok th a deeper chest then the length of the Shardblade it will take longer, but it took an entire jar for the golem and a second to sustain it so the shardbearer just needs to lop of a limb, forcing twinsoul to replace it, like 6 times to reduce the armor to nothing. The only way twinsoul wins is if he kills the shardbearer before they figure out what is happening, but he isn't going to have a fast win against shardplate. 52 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: It takes investiture to move it, not sustain it. And we might be reading different wobs but the one I'm seeing specifically says that zephyr spores created normal air, not invested. Read my last post replying to therunner, I explained the gaseous Investiture thing there. The WoB does not reference normal at all, but rather that it is breathable. The golem only takes half a jar of Dor to make, and we don't know how much Twinsoul uses to actually maintain and move the golem to get outside. Investiture does seem to be required to move the golem, but in the case where the Dor was fueling it, the Investiture was also the thing sustaining it.
therunner he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It's not so unprecedented. Investiture turning into energy, Investiture being turned into oxygen, and Investiture turning into calories and vice versa have a surprising amount of examples in the Cosmere.The metal itself just channels energy from the SR, getting used up in the process (kinda like Allomancy). In every single instance you quote it is Invested Power granted by a Shard within a System, Lumar has no Shards. Quote A Bendalloy Feruchemist can turn calories into Investiture and back, and a Cadmium Feruchemist can turn oxygen into Investiture and back. This is Feruchemy, Invested art, not biological power. Quote The Harmonium-Bavadinium reaction shows that Investiture can be turned into pure energy. Interaction of two god-metals, and it creates regular energy in the form of e.g. photons and other particles (there is no such things as 'pure energy'). Quote Lift can metabolize food into Investiture. Direct Shardic Intervention granted her that power, she was not born with it. Quote The Harmonium-Water reaction doesn't act like regular chemistry, it doesn't create a Harmonium Oxide. True, but again that is just physical reaction, not regular human metabolizing Investiture. The only people that can kind of metabolize Investiture either have Invested powers, or have been modified by Shard. There is evidence of neither in Lumar. Quote Same for the Zephyr Aether, maybe it's just Gaseous Investiture that can be breathed in, be used to respire, and is then used up as a result of the reaction it just made possible. I am sorry, but the WoB I quote is very clear in that Zephyr Aether makes breathable air. Not breathable gas, or breathable Investiture, breathable air. The word air has quite concrete meaning, and it is not what you are saying. Quote Ladder Contact 6814 What are the other six types of spores we didn't get to see in the book? Were there any that you really wanted to include, but couldn't? Brandon Sanderson No. When I've written books, I tend to gravitate toward a couple of the aethers that are really the most dynamic for action scenes and things like that. Some of the other aethers are there for the necessity of the future of the Cosmere. For instance: zephyr, while very useful in this for firing cannons and stuff, is really there so that we can have propellant in space by just-add-water and make yourself some extra propellant. And atmosphere; kind of a low-tech (there's better-tech ways), but a low-tech way to: "hey, we've got zephyr aether, it makes breathable air. And so, if we've got water and a barrel of this stuff, then we'll be able to breathe." So there are some of the aethers that are there for that sort of reason, so that we can have pneumatic weaponry and some easy access to emergency propellant in space, and stuff like that. But verdant is the one that I just keep coming back to, that one and roseite, as making for the most dynamic storytelling. We'll see what I do with some of the others. I'm not gonna answer what the ones I haven't mentioned are, because I am saving them for future books to be used and to be interesting and engaging with them. Tress Spoiler Stream (March 31, 2023) 19 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Besides, it doesn't really matter how it's done, there's a WoB that outright says that the Aethers are physical Investiture, calling the Verdant Aether out in particular. The rest is just us guessing and extrapolating about the exact mechanics. WoB says it's Investiture, so it is. You can't really disagree with the person who determines how it all works. Nowhere in the WoB you quote Brandon outrights says that Aethers are physical Investiture. Quote Overlord Jebus All the physical manifestations--solid physical manifestations we've seen of Investiture has been metallic. It's been atium, lerasium, Shardblades. Is that just a coincidence? Brandon Sanderson No, it's intentional. Overlord Jebus It's intentional so we're not going to see Investiture wood or Investiture plastic? Brandon Sanderson Right, I mean technically, like, what do you call the aethers? Those are not metal. But I do it as metal intentionally. Questioner They could be a metal with very low boiling point. Brandon Sanderson *sarcastically* Yes, the vine ones are-- Overlord Jebus Well we've had liquid, we've had gas, the solids all seem to be metallic, so. Brandon Sanderson That is intentional, it's just one of those little laws of the cosmere, that's not meant to mean anything Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) 'Technically, what do you call aethers?' that is all he says. Clearly Aethers behave differently from the other kinds of Investiture we have seen, so extrapolating their 'resistance' to Shardblade from Shardic Investiture could be a bit premature. Additionally, the WoB you quote is 5 years out of date, predating writing of ToES and TLM, which is where Brandon adjusted and codified how Aethers work in Cosmere. Newer WoB from 2023 states quite clearly that Zephyr aether creates air, not Gaseous Investiture. 19 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: This is a far, far better point. Roseite indeed seems to not be very Investiture-Dense, although that could just be because the Dor is very Investiture-Dense, as I theorized in a different post, and the contrast just makes Roseite seem less Investiture-Dense. It comes down to two different versions: Either the Roseite is decently Investiture-Dense and it could withstand a Shardblade attack (Magically. The sword would still damage the Roseite if it's brittle enough), or it isn't and the Shardblade could cut it, if inefficiently. Dor is liquid Investiture, and a single Jar was enough to create and sustain Golem for a while. Hence Roseite (even if pure Investiture) is less dense than liquid Investiture. Liquid Investiture is less dense than Solid Investiture. Hence, Shardblade is much more Investiture dense than Roseite. Quote However, I don't think the second one is likely. Even if the Roseite is as Investiture-light (as in opposite of dense, not Light light) as it seems, it's made purely of Investiture. That alone should make it immune to a Shardblade's cutting edge, even if it's not that Investiture-Dense. No. We see e.g. Shardblade harm spren, those are also made purely out of Investiture (and indeed are probably more Invested than Roseite would). And we see Nightblood damage Honorblade, so being Pure Investiture does not make object immune to superantural cutting/destroying properties. Hence, Sharblade would still cut Roseite and supernaturally so. Quote A weapon made of an Atium Alloy can block a Shardblade, and the alloy would have its Investiture diluted by the presence of a different metal. Something made purely of Investiture, even if the Investiture isn't that great in quantity, should be totally immune to a Shardblade, or nearly so, like Aluminum. Ehm, quote on that atium alloy blocking Shardblade? Edited June 23, 2023 by therunner
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 23, 2023 Author Posted June 23, 2023 41 minutes ago, therunner said: In every single instance you quote it is Invested Power granted by a Shard within a System, Lumar has no Shards. This is Feruchemy, Invested art, not biological power. Interaction of two god-metals, and it creates regular energy in the form of e.g. photons and other particles (there is no such things as 'pure energy'). Direct Shardic Intervention granted her that power, she was not born with it. True, but again that is just physical reaction, not regular human metabolizing Investiture. The only people that can kind of metabolize Investiture either have Invested powers, or have been modified by Shard. There is evidence of neither in Lumar. I am sorry, but the WoB I quote is very clear in that Zephyr Aether makes breathable air. Not breathable gas, or breathable Investiture, breathable air. The word air has quite concrete meaning, and it is not what you are saying. Nowhere in the WoB you quote Brandon outrights says that Aethers are physical Investiture. 'Technically, what do you call aethers?' that is all he says. Clearly Aethers behave differently from the other kinds of Investiture we have seen, so extrapolating their 'resistance' to Shardblade from Shardic Investiture could be a bit premature. Additionally, the WoB you quote is 5 years out of date, predating writing of ToES and TLM, which is where Brandon adjusted and codified how Aethers work in Cosmere. Newer WoB from 2023 states quite clearly that Zephyr aether creates air, not Gaseous Investiture. Dor is liquid Investiture, and a single Jar was enough to create and sustain Golem for a while. Hence Roseite (even if pure Investiture) is less dense than liquid Investiture. Liquid Investiture is less dense than Solid Investiture. Hence, Shardblade is much more Investiture dense than Roseite. No. We see e.g. Shardblade harm spren, those are also made purely out of Investiture (and indeed are probably more Invested than Roseite would). And we see Nightblood damage Honorblade, so being Pure Investiture does not make object immune to superantural cutting/destroying properties. Hence, Sharblade would still cut Roseite and supernaturally so. Ehm, quote on that atium alloy blocking Shardblade? I am curious about how investiture works against a shardblade. If a full metalmind is able to withstand a blow from a shardblade would a waterballoon filled with liquid dor resist a shardblade? I heard that the investiture might act sort of like magnets repelling eachother but I am not sure how convinced I am. If I take a quick bath in liquid dor would it be a protective layer against a shardblade?
therunner he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 56 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I am curious about how investiture works against a shardblade. If a full metalmind is able to withstand a blow from a shardblade would a waterballoon filled with liquid dor resist a shardblade? I heard that the investiture might act sort of like magnets repelling eachother but I am not sure how convinced I am. If I take a quick bath in liquid dor would it be a protective layer against a shardblade? Shardblade easily passes through spren, so I don't think it would repel it like that. It would simply cut through water balloon, like it would cut through any liquid filled object. Liquids are kind of 'easy' to cut
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, therunner said: In every single instance you quote it is Invested Power granted by a Shard within a System, Lumar has no Shards. This is Feruchemy, Invested art, not biological power. Interaction of two god-metals, and it creates regular energy in the form of e.g. photons and other particles (there is no such things as 'pure energy'). Direct Shardic Intervention granted her that power, she was not born with it. And each instance is also about turning food into Investiture. Turning regular matter into Investiture would undoubtedly take something like Shardic Intervention or an Invested Art. But digesting Aether vines should be a pretty easy thing to do. The vines take the form of organic plant matter, which our bodies can digest. Just because the atoms are in some way different doesn't change the fact that our bodies know how to break down the structure they form when they're together. Creating Investiture from matter is like building a very tall but thin tower out of incredibly tiny blocks. You need to understand the nuances of balance and support, not to mention have the precision to stack them neatly, to be able to build it. However, breaking down matter to release energy is like toppling the tower by providing a tiny push. Anything can do it, provided it can move and apply force. Just because the blocks are made of Investiture made physical doesn't change the mechanics of how they fall. As for the pure energy bit, I meant in terms of things like heat. We already had the energy conversation on a different thread. Quote True, but again that is just physical reaction And respiration isn't? Just as Harmonium reacts with water and then the Investiture itself is used up while leaving regular material behind in its place, the Aether vines could be broken down into pieces that can be broken down in respiration, and during the actual process of respiration the Investiture would be used up. Quote The only people that can kind of metabolize Investiture either have Invested powers, or have been modified by Shard. There is evidence of neither in Lumar. There would still be ambient amounts of Investiture, and we see that those ambient Investiture levels can spike a little in certain places, enough to kick start lesser forms of Investiture, such as the Aviar bonds on First of the Sun. That's tangential though, I'd expect anything that can digest plant matter could digest Aether vines, despite being made of Investiture. Quote I am sorry, but the WoB I quote is very clear in that Zephyr Aether makes breathable air. Not breathable gas, or breathable Investiture, breathable air. The word air has quite concrete meaning, and it is not what you are saying. I was under the impression that air is a gas. If it is perhaps a liquid instead, then perhaps I really am mistaken. Quote Nowhere in the WoB you quote Brandon outrights says that Aethers are physical Investiture. 'Technically, what do you call aethers?' that is all he says. The questioner asked whether all Investiture in physical form being metallic is intentional, and Brandon says it is. The questioner then asks if we'll ever see non-metallic solid physical Investiture, and Brandon responds with "What do you call the Aethers?". It's quite clear, if you don't think so, that's your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Quote Clearly Aethers behave differently from the other kinds of Investiture we have seen, so extrapolating their 'resistance' to Shardblade from Shardic Investiture could be a bit premature. Not necessarily. Aethers are attracted to Iron and repulsed by Steel, so they do have some things in common with Shardic Investiture. Besides, Investiture is still Investiture, and some properties are universal. Endowment's Investiture, for example, doesn't maintain a Connection to Nalthis. It can be taken off-world easily, which is why Returned can worldhop when no other Cognitive Shadows are able to. Investiture has different properties and rules that they play to when it comes to their Intent. But some things go beyond those differences. One of those rules is Investiture resists Investiture. Quote Additionally, the WoB you quote is 5 years out of date, predating writing of ToES and TLM, which is where Brandon adjusted and codified how Aethers work in Cosmere. Newer WoB from 2023 states quite clearly that Zephyr aether creates air, not Gaseous Investiture. That's a good point, but nothing has outright contradicted that the Aethers are physical Investiture. The WoB you keep citing about Zephyr spores does not say that it is not Gaseous Investiture, only that it is breathable air. You don't have to agree, but until I see the books or a WoB give strong proof that the Aethers aren't physical Investiture, I will continue to believe they are, because that's what the WoBs we have right now say. Quote Dor is liquid Investiture, and a single Jar was enough to create and sustain Golem for a while. Hence Roseite (even if pure Investiture) is less dense than liquid Investiture. Liquid Investiture is less dense than Solid Investiture. That's the thing though. If you were to take a bit of Investiture out of Ruin's Perpendicularity on Scadrial (The Black Lake from the Logbook), I doubt it would be as Invested as the Dor, because the Dor is a finite substance that has had 2 infinities worth of Investiture squeezed into it. That's why I posited on a different thread that the Dor is actually more Investiture-Dense than other Investitures, even liquid ones. That could be one reason why Roseite would seem relatively Investiture-Light in comparison. Quote Hence, Shardblade is much more Investiture dense than Roseite. You don't need to be as Invested as a Shardblade to be able to resist it's cutting edge. Quote No. We see e.g. Shardblade harm spren, those are also made purely out of Investiture (and indeed are probably more Invested than Roseite would). The only instance in which a Spren was harmed by a Shardblade was in the Physical Realm, where Spren don't manifest heavily. They're partly in the CR, so the Shardblade would only vaguely hurt them but not harm them. When a Spren is truly in the Physical Realm (Such as being a Shardblade), they then do resist Shardblades. That's literally the main way we see Shardblades be resisted; through Shardblades and Shardplate. Quote And we see Nightblood damage Honorblade, so being Pure Investiture does not make object immune to superantural cutting/destroying properties. Nightblood is not a good model to use for Shardblades. He's far more powerful, not to mention unique, made from a different magic system, and with direct Shardic Involvement. Just because Nightblood can damage an Honorblade doesn't mean any Shardblade can. Ishar has used his Honorblade for centuries, and yet was so disturbed by Nightblood's damaging of the Honorblade that he immediately evacuates. He previously dueled Sigzil and the other Windrunners, and their Blades do nothing of the sort. Using Nightblood as justification is like saying a bunker can't withstand a firework because it can't withstand a nuclear bomb. The two are vastly different in power. Quote Ehm, quote on that atium alloy blocking Shardblade? My bad, I pulled it up on the Arcanum but forgot to include it: Quote Andrassy If atium is a metal that is relevant throughout the Cosmere, which seems to be the case from your comment, then it could have special properties that go beyond its use in allomancy, so that this metal that is relevant to everything doesn't only feel useful in Mistborn. I'd be interested to know, for instance, if it's at all useful in the forging of weapons or whatever. Anyway I dunno I'm just a very early reader and I'm already trying to give the author ideas, but from my perspective I don't see why atium not being used by all allomancers is a big problem. The usefulness of atium could go way beyond allomancy perhaps. Brandon Sanderson It does! And yes, atium weapons would be very useful (even atium alloy) for doing things like resisting Shardblades. So there is quite a bit of application. General Reddit 2020 (June 23, 2020) 1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I am curious about how investiture works against a shardblade. If a full metalmind is able to withstand a blow from a shardblade would a waterballoon filled with liquid dor resist a shardblade? I heard that the investiture might act sort of like magnets repelling eachother but I am not sure how convinced I am. If I take a quick bath in liquid dor would it be a protective layer against a shardblade? A liquid Dor balloon would not, as the balloon itself would not be Invested and the Shardblade would shear right through it. Investitures don't react quite so much like magnets. Investiture just resists further attempts to become Invested unless it's of the same type. A bath in Dor wouldn't help you much either, since the passing of the sword would just shove the Dor to the side since it's liquid and doesn't hold a definite shape. If you used Dorium though, that would be a really good thing to use to resist a Shardblade, but Dorium is likely as reactive as Harmonium, so maybe not. Edited June 23, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 23, 2023 Author Posted June 23, 2023 9 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: A liquid Dor balloon would not, as the balloon itself would not be Invested and the Shardblade would shear right through it. Investitures don't react quite so much like magnets. Investiture just resists further attempts to become Invested unless it's of the same type. A bath in Dor wouldn't help you much either, since the passing of the sword would just shove the Dor to the side since it's liquid and doesn't hold a definite shape. If you used Dorium though, that would be a really good thing to use to resist a Shardblade, but Dorium is likely as reactive as Harmonium, so maybe not. 24 minutes ago, therunner said: Shardblade easily passes through spren, so I don't think it would repel it like that. It would simply cut through water balloon, like it would cut through any liquid filled object. Liquids are kind of 'easy' to cut I'm a total moron when it comes to this stuff. What about a sponge soaked in liquid dor? If the form that the investiture is in matters wouldn't a smaller amount of investiture hidden inside a more solid object be more capable against a shardblade? If the jar of liquid is that much more invested than the amount of water that could be crammed into a metalmind wouldn't something saturated in that liquid create a repelling barrier? I feel like I have seen WoBs indicating that cloth with enough breath will block a shardblade. Wouldnt liquid dor soaked into a sponge be more than that? But clearly softer materials need more investiture to defend against a shardblade. Clearly a metalmind, which is often looked at as having very little investiture, is still capable of blocking a shardblade when it is moderately to heavily full of an attribute. If you are using investiture to grow a crystal and maintain its existance wouldn't it continue to keep the connection to the spiritual realm that let it grow in the first place? Meaning it is at least invested enough for that. Unless the argument is that investiture comes from Adonalsium and aether comes not from investiture but then why would the dor work to power the suit in the first place?
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I'm a total moron when it comes to this stuff. What about a sponge soaked in liquid dor? That's still not good enough. You need the Investiture to be suffused into the soul of an object/creature. Quote If the form that the investiture is in matters wouldn't a smaller amount of investiture hidden inside a more solid object be more capable against a shardblade? Yes, but to an extent. the Dor will resist a Shardblade very well; it just can't be put to use as a liquid. On the flip side, you can be solid but not be Invested enough to resist a Shardblade. You need to have a balance of both being solid and Invested. Quote If the jar of liquid is that much more invested than the amount of water that could be crammed into a metalmind wouldn't something saturated in that liquid create a repelling barrier? I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean, but the base concept is this: The Dor will itself be fine from Shardblade attacks, but to transfer this immunity to other objects, it needs to be injected into the soul of the object. Where is the Investiture going in a Radiant? Not just their body, but it seeps into their very soul and mind. In the soul, it can repair wounds that the soul may have endured. In the mind, it creates that feeling of energeticness that Radiants describe, the "storm" that forms in them. And in the body, it heals wounds. Being physically inside something won't be enough, it needs to become one with the soul of the object. Quote I feel like I have seen WoBs indicating that cloth with enough breath will block a shardblade. Wouldnt liquid dor soaked into a sponge be more than that? It would take a lot of Breaths, and even then the Shardblade will still work like a sword and probably shear through the cloth as a normal sword would. In the Vasher vs Kaladin fight, Kaladin cuts several Awakened clothes without noticing any particular resistance, so a lot of Breaths would be required. A Dor-soaked sponge would act like a sponge and Dor in the same place, and the sponge would be cut while the Dor would not. To make the sponge resistant, you need to Invest the sponge, that's the crux of what I'm getting at. Having the Investiture inside an object and Investing the Investiture into the object are not the same thing. Quote But clearly softer materials need more investiture to defend against a shardblade. Clearly a metalmind, which is often looked at as having very little investiture, is still capable of blocking a shardblade when it is moderately to heavily full of an attribute. Feruchemical charges are low-Investiture, but a Metalmind can hold a lot of it in a relatively small amount of metal. You'd need to store a lot to make it properly resistant, otherwise it would resist a little but still be cut. Quote If you are using investiture to grow a crystal and maintain its existance wouldn't it continue to keep the connection to the spiritual realm that let it grow in the first place? Meaning it is at least invested enough for that. Unless the argument is that investiture comes from Adonalsium and aether comes not from investiture but then why would the dor work to power the suit in the first place? Aether comes from Investiture, but their Investiture is just different from Adonalsium's. Just like how you can use Dor to fuel Allomancy by providing raw, Unkeyed Investiture, you can also use it to create and maintain an Aether. The main thing I think you're not quite getting here is that physically having Investiture inside you and actually being Invested are two different things. Think of it like wearing heat-protection gear as opposed to just holding it. One will protect you from heat and fire, and one will not. Edited June 23, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper
alder24 Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: As for the pure energy bit, I meant in terms of things like heat. Heat is a property of matter. I don't think Aethers are literally a physical investiture in the same way as god metals are. I think they are normal matter. An Aetherbound gives water to his Prime Aether, he in return gives him investiture which turns into physical regular matter, forming Aethers under Aetherbound command. Then as long as the Aether is connected to the Aetherbound, investiture flows through it feeding, preventing it from dying. But that's not a lot of investiture. An Aetherbound can outsource Aether's investiture by using Shardic investiture, like unkeyed Dor. So in my opinion Aethers are invested (because investiture is flowing through them from Aetherbound to feed the Aether), but not a lot, maybe something comparable to not fully filled metalmind - it might stop a cut from a Shardblade, but once at most, or it might not be invested enough and just resist a Shardblade by slowing it down. This can also explain why Aethers react to metals as it's the investiture flowing in Aethers that react to it, focusing in specific direction, encouraging growth in that direction. And I don't think the WoB directly contradicts it - god metals are Shardic investiture turned into non-existing (in our world), invested, physical matter - Aethers are Prime Aethers' investiture turned into existing, non-invested, physical matter. In both instances investiture creates matter - just different one.
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 1 minute ago, alder24 said: Heat is a property of matter. I am aware 1 minute ago, alder24 said: I don't think Aethers are literally a physical investiture in the same way as god metals are. I think they are normal matter. An Aetherbound gives water to his Prime Aether, he in return gives him investiture which turns into physical regular matter, forming Aethers under Aetherbound command. Then as long as the Aether is connected to the Aetherbound, investiture flows through it feeding, preventing it from dying. But that's not a lot of investiture. An Aetherbound can outsource Aether's investiture by using Shardic investiture, like unkeyed Dor. That's actually an interesting theory. 1 minute ago, alder24 said: So in my opinion Aethers are invested (because investiture is flowing through them from Aetherbound to feed the Aether), but not a lot, maybe something comparable to not fully filled metalmind - it might stop a cut from a Shardblade, but once at most, or it might not be invested enough and just resist a Shardblade by slowing it down. This can also explain why Aethers react to metals as it's the investiture flowing in Aethers that react to it, focusing in specific direction, encouraging growth in that direction. And I don't think the WoB directly contradicts it - god metals are Shardic investiture turned into non-existing (in our world), invested, physical matter - Aethers are Prime Aethers' investiture turned into existing, non-invested, physical matter. In both instances investiture creates matter - just different one. Well argued, you make excellent points. I don't know that a Shardblade's cutting edge works that way, it would encounter the same amount of resistance each time. So it would have to be somewhere on the spectrum between completely immune to being Shardblade cut and completely susceptible to it, and that result would be repeated every time. However, I do think it chafes a little against the WoB. Presumably, Scadrial and everything on it was made of Investiture turned into matter, but that acts as ordinary matter and isn't any more Invested than any other Di-Shardic Shardworld. That's matter made from Investiture, but it is not the same as a God metal. If Brandon truly meant regular matter made from Investiture, would he not have referenced Scadrial instead? It's a bit misleading otherwise. That's only the case if Scadrial was made that way, which I'm not 100% sure of, and if it isn't, then the theory checks out. I still like the idea of Aethers as God Metal correlates that just aren't metals since it sets the Aethers apart in a very niche way, but I'll accept your theory if nothing ends up lining against it. This is why need more Alder on the Shard
alder24 Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 13 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I don't know that a Shardblade's cutting edge works that way, it would encounter the same amount of resistance each time. So it would have to be somewhere on the spectrum between completely immune to being Shardblade cut and completely susceptible to it, and that result would be repeated every time. "resist a Shardblade by slowing it down" in the same way that a human soul pushes a noticeable big against a Shardblade - in the case of Aethers it might be something similar or a bit stronger, depending on how much investiture flows through Aethers. 14 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: However, I do think it chafes a little against the WoB. Presumably, Scadrial and everything on it was made of Investiture turned into matter, but that acts as ordinary matter and isn't any more Invested than any other Di-Shardic Shardworld. That's matter made from Investiture, but it is not the same as a God metal. If Brandon truly meant regular matter made from Investiture, would he not have referenced Scadrial instead? It's a bit misleading otherwise. That's not the same. Aethers require investiture to exist - without it, without water and connection, they fall apart and decompose. Aethers aren't permanent. Scadrial is. Aethers are still part of Prime Aethers, Prime Aethers can sense through Aethers (which technically is something that Ruin and Preservation can do, but different - because Scadrial was made by their investiture they can do more with matter there than other Shards on their planets: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5293). 32 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: That's only the case if Scadrial was made that way, which I'm not 100% sure of, and if it isn't, then the theory checks out. I still like the idea of Aethers as God Metal correlates that just aren't metals since it sets the Aethers apart in a very niche way, but I'll accept your theory if nothing ends up lining against it. We need more WoBs on Aethers to confirm which theory is the most likely or more Aethers in books. Until then it's just speculations. 33 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: This is why need more Alder on the Shard Yyyy, thank you? I'm here! 1
cometaryorbit Posted June 23, 2023 Posted June 23, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, therunner said: Shardblade easily passes through spren, so I don't think it would repel it like that. It would simply cut through water balloon, like it would cut through any liquid filled object. Liquids are kind of 'easy' to cut Yeah. Liquid investiture is very powerful, so it'd probably block the magical cutting just fine, but still be cut like it would be if hit by a regular mundane sword. Like a thin piece of aluminum - it'd block the magical super-cutting but the physical sword blow would still damage it. About Scadrial ... there *is* that WoB that Ruin and Preservation "didn't create the atoms", so perhaps it wasn't literally created by raw Investiture to matter conversion. They might have assembled the physical planet of Scadrial from asteroids and extra gas-giant moons and such, and then transformed it (Harmony-Ascension style) into a habitable world suitable for humans, making oceans and a breathable atmosphere by transmuting elements, making coal and moving around/adding ore bodies, etc. Then created life and humanity on top. Edited June 23, 2023 by cometaryorbit
therunner he/him Posted June 24, 2023 Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: And each instance is also about turning food into Investiture. Turning regular matter into Investiture would undoubtedly take something like Shardic Intervention or an Invested Art. No, Feruchemy can turn also other attributes into Investiture. Food is just one very specific example (and we don't even know if Feruchemy turns un-digested food, or only digested one). Quote But digesting Aether vines should be a pretty easy thing to do. Citation needed, since again no one in Cosmere, outside of Nightblood and Larkin, can consume Investiture for sustenance. Quote The vines take the form of organic plant matter, which our bodies can digest. Yeah, so they are not Investiture. No more than Scadrian rock, or Scadrians themselves are Investiture. 18 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: There would still be ambient amounts of Investiture, and we see that those ambient Investiture levels can spike a little in certain places, enough to kick start lesser forms of Investiture, such as the Aviar bonds on First of the Sun. That's tangential though, I'd expect anything that can digest plant matter could digest Aether vines, despite being made of Investiture. First of the Sun has Avatar, so still larger Shard presence than Lumar. It even has Perpendicularity, which Lumar lacks (as far as we know). I think Aether vines can be digested simply because they are ordinary (if perhaps a bit Invested) matter. That is far simpler explanation. Quote I was under the impression that air is a gas. If it is perhaps a liquid instead, then perhaps I really am mistaken. Air is gas yes, but arbitrary gas is not air. E.g. air is not gaseous Investiture. WoB is pretty clear that Zephyr Aether creates air not breathable gas, air. 18 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Not necessarily. Aethers are attracted to Iron and repulsed by Steel, so they do have some things in common with Shardic Investiture. Only when growing. Once grown Aethers seem innert to Iron and Steel. Plausibly Iron and Steel (and other metals) affect only Kinetic Investiture, however this alone is not evidence that Aether once created is Investiture, only that Investiture is present when they are growing (which we knew anyway). 18 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: That's a good point, but nothing has outright contradicted that the Aethers are physical Investiture. The WoB you keep citing about Zephyr spores does not say that it is not Gaseous Investiture, only that it is breathable air. Air is not gaseous Investiture! If I say something creates thing A, and thing A is distinct from thing B, then something does not create B. Gaseous Investiture and air are both gases, but they are not the same thing! Why would he specifically say Zephyr creates air if he instead meant it creates gaseous Investiture that can be breathed in? Quote Nightblood is not a good model to use for Shardblades. He's far more powerful, not to mention unique, made from a different magic system, and with direct Shardic Involvement. Just because Nightblood can damage an Honorblade doesn't mean any Shardblade can. Ishar has used his Honorblade for centuries, and yet was so disturbed by Nightblood's damaging of the Honorblade that he immediately evacuates. He previously dueled Sigzil and the other Windrunners, and their Blades do nothing of the sort. Using Nightblood as justification is like saying a bunker can't withstand a firework because it can't withstand a nuclear bomb. The two are vastly different in power. I am not saying that Shardblade could damage Honorblade. Only that clearly more Invested thing can damage less Invested thing (e.g. NIghtblood and Honorblade, or Shardblade and Half-Shard). And since Roseite is seemingly much less Investiture dense (even if it has any Investiture to begin with), than Shardblade would plausibly break it relatively easily. 18 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: My bad, I pulled it up on the Arcanum but forgot to include it: Thank you. 13 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Yeah. Liquid investiture is very powerful, so it'd probably block the magical cutting just fine, but still be cut like it would be if hit by a regular mundane sword. Like a thin piece of aluminum - it'd block the magical super-cutting but the physical sword blow would still damage it. Liquid Investiture is still less powerful than Solid Investiture, so it would most likely not block, only resist to some extant. Edited June 24, 2023 by therunner
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