Duxredux he/him Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 (edited) I dunno. I've read over this and there's some assumptions being made. First, does Rosite qualify as alive? Shardblades behave differently when cutting through living vs nonliving matter, and we haven't seen Shardblades cut a living Invested material anywhere close to the durability of Rosite. We see Kaladin stab a Enlightened spren with Syl as a dagger but it doesn't say if the edge fuzzes or not, so I'm not sure if Spren qualify as living or not and could be used as a baseline. I assume Verdant would count as living, but I'm not sure about Rosite. Next is the assumption that someone with Prasanva's obvious finesse with Rosite would just duke it out with a Shardbearer, which seems unlikely to me. His golem served to protect from fire arms and probably to intimidate. When fighting a Shardbearer he may be able to open and close fissures in his golem to catch a Shardblade rather than just tank a hit, possibly more. He also will know far, far more about Plate, Blades, and Radiants as a Ghostblood than the vast majority of Shardbearers will know about Aethers. This isn't to say that he will win, but the dude has enough skill to make and maintain prescription glasses for himself, which is an absurd level of precision from someone not in a machinist's shop. As for highly Invested materials shattering I have a couple ideas. Idea one, in both cases of Plate and Halfshards this may be a property of Rosharan spren manifesting as Tanavastium or an alloy designed for its hardness. Taravangian implied it uses a Radiant spren, but that could also include Plate spren rather than Truespren, which so far is logicspren, creationspren, windspren, gloryspren, and more, which may not be as disturbing to the Stormfather and be in a similar category as other fabrials. Shattering instead of deforming may just be a property of that specific Godmetal in the same way that Bavadinium is extremely hard and does not melt under even extreme temperatures but Harmonium will and is about as maleable as gold. Alternately, densely Invested materials when they try overwhelm each other shatter rather than deform because the Investiture is specifically trying to resist the other Investiture due to differing Intent or Identity. It's kind of like how tensing your muscles can reduce how much an impact hurts or resist getting pushed around - unless the impact is so strong it just breaks bone and tears muscles and ligaments. Because the Investiture is specifically trying to resist the other Investiture's influence, it "tenses" and becomes more brittle, and thus explodes because it is power under tension. I'm probably not using quite the right phrasing but I hope the concept is understandable. On a related note when Kelsier Ascends he describes the power resisting for a few moments before "breaking" and flooding into him. As for Halfshard shields versus other armor they won't grant strength enhancement like Plate will. Heavy armor that doesn't let you move as nimbly as a Shardbearer is exactly what you don't want. Even if they were to make armor, they wouldn't be able to get the seamless design of Plate and would be vulnerable to well aimed spear or sword thrusts into chinks and joints that soldiers are specifically trained to do to circumvent armor. A shield may just be the current best use for the design and for the express use of defending against Shardblades. Edited June 26, 2023 by Duxredux clarity 1
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 26, 2023 Posted June 26, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, therunner said: 10 hours ago, therunner said: Or they can be lesser spren forced somehow to Invest the Shield. Plate proves that lesser spren are Invested enough to resist Shardblade a bit. Right, exactly. If Radiant Spren aren't being used, the Stormfather's lack of a reaction makes sense. But I doubt it's just the Investiture. If that were the case, any Fabrial would be entirely resistant to Shardblades because they're Investing them, which clearly isn't the case. You could make the argument that it's only Radiant Platespren that are sufficiently Invested enough for resistance, yet while Windspren are considered to be among the larger Spren, other Platespren like Creationspren, Gloryspren, and Logicspren aren't described as anything notable. Logicspren are used to make Fabrial clocks, which should by principle be more Investiture-Dense than some segments of Shardplate. If it was just Investiture, a Fabrial Clock would be immune to Shardblades too. The fact that Fabrials require Wirecages, the fact that Half-Shards are Augmenter Fabrials, and the fact that other Fabrials made of Platespren don't become Blade-resistant all suggest pretty clearly that Investiture isn't the main factor in making Half-Shards immune. Quote 10 hours ago, therunner said: Yeah, but the fine metalwork of Fabrial would get damaged by blows more easily than the shield itself. Why exactly would the Wirecage be more likely to be damaged? It shouldn't, not necessarily, if they cushion it right. Either way, if the Wirecage gets damaged, it obviously wouldn't work. The idea is theoretical, it's meant to only apply if the Fabrial itself survives. Quote 10 hours ago, therunner said: And this does not explain why only diamond shapes shields are used for Half-Shards, nor why can the same Fabrial not be used for breastplate/armor. Here's the full quote: Quote They can only take the shape of a shield and don't lend any of Plate's other enhancements. But they can block a Shardblade. It doesn't say that the diamond shape is required, only that they haven't been able to create anything else that is Blade-Resistant. The diamond shape is more likely a result of what shape covers the most area without becoming too heavy to maneuver and reasonably use. The shape probably doesn't matter, so long as the mass remains the same, if that even is a factor in the Fabrial working in the first place. Quote Simplest explanation is that the entirety of shield is part of Fabrial. It may be simple, but that doesn't mean it's true. It's a possibility with nothing to back it but Occam's razor, and even that won't support your answer if a more reasonable explanation comes along. It's speculation at best, conjecture at worst. It's a valid explanation, but it's far from the only one. Without any evidence to back you up other than a principle of theory that's usually reserved for philosophy, you shouldn't be pushing for one specific answer so strongly. It's fine as a headcanon, but it's only one of a multitude of possibilities, since we know next to nothing about the mechanism of Half-Shards. Quote If it effect of the Blade, then Roseite should also shatter in similar way. Which is how this entire discussion got started. And which I agreed to way earlier. Did you miss it? Quote Well Wax carries metalminds that can store thousands of kg/hours, and not be really full. So something like 3 kg of Iron could plausibly store weight of the entire ship for some short trip. Short trips yes, but how short would a trip have to be before it can no longer reasonably store so much weight continuously? Quote Interesting, is it by any chance a translation? It isn't, that's what confuses me. I do most of my reading online, and I've come across some books that have the wording a little switched up, but this is the first time I've encountered it in a Brandon Sanderson book. Quote Per Alder it would be more like ~30 ish pieces. And since gauntlet does seem to be formed from single spren (it looks exactly the same later on when made translucent, as when the spren first forms it), I don't really see any evidence for sections being formed from multiple spren. Per Alder, that would be ~30 pieces at least for the limbs alone. If the book is omitting so many Windspren, it could just as easily be the case that multiple Spren can come together to form a single segment, since the prime evidence against multiple Spren coming together was the number that we see actually form the Shardplate. If that number is apparently so high that more than twice the amount of Spren mentioned are actually present as a low estimate just for the limbs alone, then there could just as easily be a lot of Windspren that come together to form larger sections. And you yourself said that it was possible that the Windsprens' Investiture could feasibly comingle, which is another point in that theory's favor. Quote And all sections shatter the same way, and clearly single section is not dozens of spren. So the shattered pieces of metal are almost certainly coming from just few spren, so individual shards cannot be just one spren. I don't see where you're drawing the conclusion that "clearly single section is not dozens of spren" from when it was just established that the number of Spren we see is inaccurate. But in the next line, you go against your original statement, saying "The shattered pieces of metal are almost certainly coming from just a few spren". Am I missing something, or are you agreeing that more than one Spren compose a single piece of Shardplate? You say that individual shards cannot be just one Spren, which also seems like you're agreeing with the theory, so now I'm just lost about where you stand on this. Quote The part about being only ever diamond shaped is my observation, I don't think any other shape of Half-Shard was ever shown or mentioned. No, I'm sure we've only ever seen diamond-shaped Half-Shards. Quote Or, shield is part of fabrial construction, and they have not figured out how to make fabrial work with different shape of metal. Again, this is conjecture. They may have decided upon the diamond shape for practicality purposes, or for standardization. We don't know the mechanism that Half-Shards work on, so we don't know what problem they're running into with Half-Shard armor. If it was Investiture alone, it wouldn't be hard to fit it onto armor. Why does the shape of metal suddenly become a factor here when it isn't for any other Fabrial? There are a lot of inconsistencies between how this model of the Half-Shard works and how other regular Fabrials that we know of work. Quote Radiants mess with causality quite often (Kal being good with spear, because he will be good with spear, Shallan drawing things she did not withness as they are happening, Dalinar Connecting Kal with his brother). Attracting appropriately sized spren is a minor thing. Kaladin is just naturally good with a spear, he has a knack for it. It's exaggerated for narrative purposes, but it's not so unbelievable. People are just naturally good at certain things sometimes, especially if they have a passion and longing for it as Kaladin does. And it's not like he doesn't get any training at all, he gets several years of it. Shallan's talents are more supernatural, but they still make sense within the context of the Cosmere. When she takes Memories of something, she Connects herself to something, just a little, and then uses that to reproduce the scene on-page, whereupon she loses the Connection. It's a Resonance of being a Lightweaver. Just because something is beyond her physical senses doesn't mean it is beyond Connection and her application of it. And what Dalinar does can also be rationalized. He can already touch the Spiritual Realm, depending on your interpretation of the Cosmere he is either Connecting Kaladin to Tien's actual soul, or he's using the Spiritual Realm to peek into an alternate timeline that could have happened where Tien never died and Connecting Kaladin to that. Here's the WoB: Quote Questioner Close to the end of Rhythm of War, Dalinar Connects Kaladin to something, which gives him the vision of Tien. Did he Connect him to Tien's dead soul, and if so, does Dalinar know what he did? Brandon Sanderson There are two prevailing theories on what happened here among cosmerenauts, in-world Arcanists. You would get two different answers. The most common answer is, Dalinar attached himself to the Spiritual Realm, pulled out possibilities, and showed one of those to Kaladin. Questioner If so, where did the horse come from? Brandon Sanderson Either pure coincidence, or some sort of matching of Fortune to the moment, that ended up leading Kaladin to the place he needed to be, which is the way a lot of Fortune works. Fortune would be like, "You should go here," and you don't even know why. That's what the Arcanist answer would be, it would be the most common answer. Some people would say he reached into the Beyond and connected Tien to Kaladin via Tien's actual soul. I will leave these both as equally valid theories. As I've said many times, I'm not gonna say whether there is an actual afterlife in the cosmere because it is too foundational to too many characters' beliefs, or lack of beliefs, or worldview in-world to have the author contradict them either way. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)  Anyway, even when something in the canon is primarily driven by plot and narrative reasons, there are still in-world rationalizations for how that happened. Stating that a plot device happened because it's a plot device is redundant. You could say that about anything. How do Half-Shards work? Doesn't matter, they work how they work with no need for internal consistency because they have to for the plot to work. Will Roseite shatter if it's hit by a Shardblade? Doesn't matter, it either will or it won't, and when it does it will be purely because the plot desires it and no other explanation is necessary. Do you see what I mean? Why theorize on these things if the answer is ultimately going to be "It's a plot device"? If you don't have a valid response, you can always just say so. So either Spren of the exact size needed to form each specific segment are just the ones that happen to form Shardplate around Kaladin, or there's some way they can coordinate their Investiture. I did like your original response of the Investiture comingling. @Duxredux Quote I dunno. I've read over this and there's some assumptions being made. First, does Rosite qualify as alive? Shardblades behave differently when cutting through living vs nonliving matter, and we haven't seen Shardblades cut a living Invested material anywhere close to the durability of Rosite. We see Kaladin stab a Enlightened spren with Syl as a dagger but it doesn't say if the edge fuzzes or not, so I'm not sure if Spren qualify as living or not and could be used as a baseline. I assume Verdant would count as living, but I'm not sure about Rosite. It most likely does not. It would count as Invested material, but not alive. Quote Next is the assumption that someone with Prasanva's obvious finesse with Rosite would just duke it out with a Shardbearer, which seems unlikely to me. His golem served to protect from fire arms and probably to intimidate. When fighting a Shardbearer he may be able to open and close fissures in his golem to catch a Shardblade rather than just tank a hit, possibly more. He also will know far, far more about Plate, Blades, and Radiants as a Ghostblood than the vast majority of Shardbearers will know about Aethers. This isn't to say that he will win, but the dude has enough skill to make and maintain prescription glasses for himself, which is an absurd level of precision from someone not in a machinist's shop. It's less about Pasanva and more about an Aetherbound in general, and particularly the properties of Roseite. Quote Idea one, in both cases of Plate and Halfshards this may be a property of Rosharan spren manifesting as Tanavastium or an alloy designed for its hardness. Taravangian implied it uses a Radiant spren, but that could also include Plate spren rather than Truespren, which so far is logicspren, creationspren, windspren, gloryspren, and more, which may not be as disturbing to the Stormfather and be in a similar category as other fabrials. Shattering instead of deforming may just be a property of that specific Godmetal in the same way that Bavadinium is extremely hard and does not melt under even extreme temperatures but Harmonium will and is about as maleable as gold. Could be, but the different Shards of different Orders are separate Alloys, which is enough for their properties to drift and for them to be considered different metals entirely. It is unlikely that all of them share that exact same property in this way. Quote Alpharho The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals? Brandon Sanderson No, but good question. Alpharho Are all orders the same alloy, essentially? Brandon Sanderson Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy. Alpharho So, different proportions of tanavastium? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to. Alpharho Would you say different ratios of the same two metals? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing. Alpharho But you won't say what that thing is called? Brandon Sanderson No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) However, that's a good point about the Radiant Platespren. It could be possible that the Augmenter Fabrials in Half-Shards are forcing a Spren to manifest physically, but that's unlikely for some reasons: A single Platespren would not be enough to manifest a whole shield big enough to cover your entire side. You could get around this but using multiple Spren, but the descriptions of Half-Shards only mention a single gemstone. This method would mean that the Shields are made of God Metal, yet the metal they are made of is never described in any way as to hint that this is the case, and they don't burst into liquid metal as regular Plate does when they break, which this would be a form of. Having the Spren manifest physically would require them to actually be outside the Polestone, at which point they wouldn't be affected by the Fabrial's compelling and could just escape. Quote Alternately, densely Invested materials when they try overwhelm each other shatter rather than deform because the Investiture is specifically trying to resist the other Investiture due to differing Intent or Identity. It's kind of like how tensing your muscles can reduce how much an impact hurts or resist getting pushed around - unless the impact is so strong it just breaks bone and tears muscles and ligaments. Because the Investiture is specifically trying to resist the other Investiture's influence, it "tenses" and becomes more brittle, and thus explodes because it is power under tension. I'm probably not using quite the right phrasing but I hope the concept is understandable. On a related note when Kelsier Ascends he describes the power resisting for a few moments before "breaking" and flooding into him. I like this idea, but I don't think this is quite right either. Physically resisting other God metals is specifically a Bavadinium thing. Alternatively, differing Intent would not work here either, since all Shards (Blades and Plates) are made of the same two Shardic (Shard of Adonalsium) Intents. You could argue that the amalgamation of differing ratios of the two Investitures are enough to make them count as separate Intents, but then Blades shouldn't damage Plate of the same Order. Identity could work here, but the more animalistic Lesser Spren may not have enough of an Identity for it to irritate each other, and even if they do, Identity has not been shown to react aggressively in any other case. besides, Shardblades should by this rule also damage each other, but they do not. For Kelsier, the "breaking" of the power may just be flavour text. Quote As for Halfshard shields versus other armor they won't grant strength enhancement like Plate will. Heavy armor that doesn't let you move as nimbly as a Shardbearer is exactly what you don't want. Even if they were to make armor, they wouldn't be able to get the seamless design of Plate and would be vulnerable to well aimed spear or sword thrusts into chinks and joints that soldiers are specifically trained to do to circumvent armor. A shield may just be the current best use for the design and for the express use of defending against Shardblades. Still, that would essentially be synthetic Plate, which is exactly the thing people have been wanting to figure out for centuries. You list possible disadvantages of non-Plate Blade-resistant armor, but it would still be an enormous breakthrough. Chinks in the armor and the lack of extra speed and dexterity just aren't big enough disadvantages for this to not be immediately implemented and made famous. There isn't any reason to believe in this scenario that the armor would be heavier than any other regular heavy infantry armor, which we see that the Alethi employ regularly, so that just isn't a problem. And actual Shardplate wearers are vulnerable to to well-aimed spear attacks too; That's how Kaladin kills one. Still not a reason to not implement them. Edited June 26, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper
therunner he/him Posted June 27, 2023 Posted June 27, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Right, exactly. If Radiant Spren aren't being used, the Stormfather's lack of a reaction makes sense. But I doubt it's just the Investiture. If that were the case, any Fabrial would be entirely resistant to Shardblades because they're Investing them, which clearly isn't the case. You could make the argument that it's only Radiant Platespren that are sufficiently Invested enough for resistance, yet while Windspren are considered to be among the larger Spren, other Platespren like Creationspren, Gloryspren, and Logicspren aren't described as anything notable. Logicspren are used to make Fabrial clocks, which should by principle be more Investiture-Dense than some segments of Shardplate. If it was just Investiture, a Fabrial Clock would be immune to Shardblades too. The fact that Fabrials require Wirecages, the fact that Half-Shards are Augmenter Fabrials, and the fact that other Fabrials made of Platespren don't become Blade-resistant all suggest pretty clearly that Investiture isn't the main factor in making Half-Shards immune. Well, any fabrial is kind of resistant to Shardblades, same way any Awakened object is kind of resistant. It's just that for most cases it does not make any difference. Half-Shards would 'simply' be a Fabrial that through its construction somehow became more Invested than is usual for Fabrials, by e.g. using the sprens essence and not just Stormlight. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Why exactly would the Wirecage be more likely to be damaged? It shouldn't, not necessarily, if they cushion it right. Either way, if the Wirecage gets damaged, it obviously wouldn't work. The idea is theoretical, it's meant to only apply if the Fabrial itself survives. Fine metalwork does not deal with strong blows very well, even indirect one. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Here's the full quote: Spoiler They can only take the shape of a shield and don't lend any of Plate's other enhancements. But they can block a Shardblade. It doesn't say that the diamond shape is required, only that they haven't been able to create anything else that is Blade-Resistant. The diamond shape is more likely a result of what shape covers the most area without becoming too heavy to maneuver and reasonably use. The shape probably doesn't matter, so long as the mass remains the same, if that even is a factor in the Fabrial working in the first place. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: No, I'm sure we've only ever seen diamond-shaped Half-Shards. Again, this is conjecture. They may have decided upon the diamond shape for practicality purposes, or for standardization. We don't know the mechanism that Half-Shards work on, so we don't know what problem they're running into with Half-Shard armor. If it was Investiture alone, it wouldn't be hard to fit it onto armor. Why does the shape of metal suddenly become a factor here when it isn't for any other Fabrial? There are a lot of inconsistencies between how this model of the Half-Shard works and how other regular Fabrials that we know of work. I know, I pointed out in my comment that the diamond shape being requirement is conjecture on my end. However, we never see any other shape. Plus they cannot apply it to armor (which would be natural next step). The shields are mentioned as bulky and unwieldy, why make them in such a way, if better alternative is possible? Why not make smaller shield, so that the wielder retains mobility? Or have breastplate with small cage attached at the back? If shield is part of fabrial, then why shape of metal is a factor is answered, it is part of cage and there shape of metal is important. If only the box is fabrial, and not the rest of shield, it raises more questions about its use. There are no inconsistencies with this model, instead it explains why we only ever see one shape of shield and no other, and why is it not applied to other armor. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It may be simple, but that doesn't mean it's true. It's a possibility with nothing to back it but Occam's razor, and even that won't support your answer if a more reasonable explanation comes along. It's speculation at best, conjecture at worst. It's a valid explanation, but it's far from the only one. Without any evidence to back you up other than a principle of theory that's usually reserved for philosophy, you shouldn't be pushing for one specific answer so strongly. It's fine as a headcanon, but it's only one of a multitude of possibilities, since we know next to nothing about the mechanism of Half-Shards. With lack of any other evidence, the simplest explanation is the preferred one. And the principle is not reserved for philosophy, it is basically used in science as well. You don't posit something new, unless you cannot explain what is happening with what you already know (or some combination of that). 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Short trips yes, but how short would a trip have to be before it can no longer reasonably store so much weight continuously? Don't know, we cannot really tell, since we don't know capacity of metalminds with any certainty. If a bracer can store tens of thousands of kg/hours easily, then ~300 kg construction of a ship could store tens of thousands ton/hours easily. So it could possibly make month long trips without needing to tap the weight. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It isn't, that's what confuses me. I do most of my reading online, and I've come across some books that have the wording a little switched up, but this is the first time I've encountered it in a Brandon Sanderson book. That is odd. Someone should ask Brandon about that, or someone from his team. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Per Alder, that would be ~30 pieces at least for the limbs alone. If the book is omitting so many Windspren, it could just as easily be the case that multiple Spren can come together to form a single segment, since the prime evidence against multiple Spren coming together was the number that we see actually form the Shardplate. If that number is apparently so high that more than twice the amount of Spren mentioned are actually present as a low estimate just for the limbs alone, then there could just as easily be a lot of Windspren that come together to form larger sections. And you yourself said that it was possible that the Windsprens' Investiture could feasibly comingle, which is another point in that theory's favor. @alder24 never said any such a thing, at least that was not my understanding: Quote The upper breastplate segment of the Shardplate is separate from the lower segment, but still both are a part of the same piece, a breastplate, but they protect different parts of the body. Greave, which covers the lower leg, is made out of several segments, combined together with a sabaton, but there is still a clear distinction between frontal greave and back side of it. I don't want to suggest that each small plate is a separate spren (which might be the case), but there are a lot of pieces, fragments and segments of a Shardplate to count. Shardplates are far more detailed and decorative than plate armor, which gives it more room for separation of pieces into smaller distinctive segments. However, from RoW we know that the entire gauntlet, is seemingly just one spren. One spren smashes to the hand, gauntlet is in place only translucent (which full Plate can be made to be, so that is no evidence for gauntlet being incomplete). Per WoK chapter 26 where we get the description of putting on a Shardplate: Quote Next, they set the sabatons - armor for his boots - on the floow before hiim. They encased his boots entirely, and had a rough surface on the bottoms that seemed to cling to rocks. Sabaton encases the entire boot of Dalinar, and military boots are typically nearly up to knees. Greaves go on next, and they cover the up to and over the knees, locking on to sabatons: Quote The greaves came next, going over his legs and knees, locking on to the sabatons. Cuisses after to cover thighs Quote Dalinar stood still as the armor bearers affixed the cuisses over his thigs and locked them to the culet and faulds across his waist and lower back. So to entirely cover a single leg you need ~3-5 pieces of armor (Sabaton, greaves, cuiss, the last twopossibly doubled if they are attached one from front and the other from back). So legs require just 6-10 armor pieces. He already has culet, faulds, skirt goes over them next, so that is 4 pieces for torso and lower body. Breastplate is a single piece based on description (but could be two so lets go with that). Quote ...as the armor bearers locked his breasplate into place, then worked on the rerebraces and vambraces for his arms. For arm we know have rerebraces, vambrace, continuing with gauntlet: Quote Dalinar waved with his left hand as the armor bearers locked the gauntlet onto his right. So that is just 3 pieces for a single arm, so arms requires 6 pieces in total. Finally, goes gorget, pauldrons and helmet: Quote Then the gorget went over his head, covering his neck, the pauldrons on his shoulders and the helm on his head. This puts the total of distinct armor pieces for the entire Shardplate at 22-26. So 30 just for limbs is clearly not correct. 3-5 for each leg 3 for each arm 4 for lower torso (culet, faulds 2x, skirt) 5 for upper torso (breastplate 2x, gorget, pauldrons 2x) 1 Helm  11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: I don't see where you're drawing the conclusion that "clearly single section is not dozens of spren" from when it was just established that the number of Spren we see is inaccurate. But in the next line, you go against your original statement, saying "The shattered pieces of metal are almost certainly coming from just a few spren". Am I missing something, or are you agreeing that more than one Spren compose a single piece of Shardplate? You say that individual shards cannot be just one Spren, which also seems like you're agreeing with the theory, so now I'm just lost about where you stand on this. Gauntlet is most likely single spren (per what is shown on screen in RoW, same in both our versions). We see gauntlet shatter in WoR. Hence shattered pieces are pieces of one spren, and shattering into pieces is not 'spren no longer being Conencted together' as you posit. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Kaladin is just naturally good with a spear, he has a knack for it. It's exaggerated for narrative purposes, but it's not so unbelievable. People are just naturally good at certain things sometimes, especially if they have a passion and longing for it as Kaladin does. And it's not like he doesn't get any training at all, he gets several years of it. Shallan's talents are more supernatural, but they still make sense within the context of the Cosmere. When she takes Memories of something, she Connects herself to something, just a little, and then uses that to reproduce the scene on-page, whereupon she loses the Connection. It's a Resonance of being a Lightweaver. Just because something is beyond her physical senses doesn't mean it is beyond Connection and her application of it. And what Dalinar does can also be rationalized. He can already touch the Spiritual Realm, depending on your interpretation of the Cosmere he is either Connecting Kaladin to Tien's actual soul, or he's using the Spiritual Realm to peek into an alternate timeline that could have happened where Tien never died and Connecting Kaladin to that. Except that Syl has been to drawn to him since before they ever met. She even says so. So there is precedent for spren to being drawn to 'where they belong'. So, bunch of appropriately sized spren being drawn to Kaladin (especially when there were thousands of windspren present) is not much of a reach. Or, you know, there were thousands of windspren present, so ones of appropriate size were simply there. 11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Anyway, even when something in the canon is primarily driven by plot and narrative reasons, there are still in-world rationalizations for how that happened. Stating that a plot device happened because it's a plot device is redundant. You could say that about anything. How do Half-Shards work? Doesn't matter, they work how they work with no need for internal consistency because they have to for the plot to work. Will Roseite shatter if it's hit by a Shardblade? Doesn't matter, it either will or it won't, and when it does it will be purely because the plot desires it and no other explanation is necessary. Do you see what I mean? Why theorize on these things if the answer is ultimately going to be "It's a plot device"? If you don't have a valid response, you can always just say so. So either Spren of the exact size needed to form each specific segment are just the ones that happen to form Shardplate around Kaladin, or there's some way they can coordinate their Investiture. I did like your original response of the Investiture comingling. What? I never said anything of the sort? And I do have a valid response. That there is precedent for Radiants messing with causality in limited fashion, and so we should not be surprised to see appropriate sized spren being present when Radiant gets plate. Syl was drawn to him before they ever met. Why would not specific windspren not be drawn to him in the same fashion? I mean, Kaladin finding the vendor at the end of RoW is more surprising than that. And if you don't like that reasoning, there were thousands of windspren present when he got Plate, self-selection of appropriate sized ones would be 'easy'.  Edited June 27, 2023 by therunner
alder24 Posted June 27, 2023 Posted June 27, 2023 12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It doesn't say that the diamond shape is required, only that they haven't been able to create anything else that is Blade-Resistant. The diamond shape is more likely a result of what shape covers the most area without becoming too heavy to maneuver and reasonably use. The shape probably doesn't matter, so long as the mass remains the same, if that even is a factor in the Fabrial working in the first place. The shield being a diamond shape has no sense if you look at its purpose. The big, bulky diamond shape of the shield, which is described as a kite shield, covering the entire side of the soldier, from head to toes, is just waaaay too big for it to be used against a Shardblades. Kite shields are this big to protect against ranged attacks, to cover your entire body so no arrow would reach it. There are better types of shields that can be used to block a melee attack, smaller, lighter, more maneuverable - something like a heater shield or even a small buckler. Those shields would be far better options to use for Half-Shard, reducing their bulkiness, giving soldiers the ability to effectively fight against a Shardblade. That's why I think their shape is an essential part of the fabrial - without it, a Half-Shard wouldn't work. 12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Why does the shape of metal suddenly become a factor here when it isn't for any other Fabrial? There are a lot of inconsistencies between how this model of the Half-Shard works and how other regular Fabrials that we know of work. But the shape of metal is a factor, important way. A fabrial must have specifically shaped wire cage - that's why suppressors fabrials looks all the same, that's why all Soulcasters looks the same. Placement of aluminum in a wiring determinantes how will it affect a fabiral. 12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: So either Spren of the exact size needed to form each specific segment are just the ones that happen to form Shardplate around Kaladin, or there's some way they can coordinate their Investiture. I did like your original response of the Investiture comingling. You're missing out that spren can be attracted to certain individuals from extreme distances. They don't need to be there - they could be attracted by Kaladin's needs from Shattered Plains or something like that, and instantly appear next to Kaladin. If there is a size requirement, Radiant will just attract a specific spren towards himself from far away. 12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: It most likely does not. It would count as Invested material, but not alive. Is it? How does Silajana see through it? 12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said: Per Alder, that would be ~30 pieces at least for the limbs alone. If the book is omitting so many Windspren, it could just as easily be the case that multiple Spren can come together to form a single segment, since the prime evidence against multiple Spren coming together was the number that we see actually form the Shardplate. If that number is apparently so high that more than twice the amount of Spren mentioned are actually present as a low estimate just for the limbs alone, then there could just as easily be a lot of Windspren that come together to form larger sections. And you yourself said that it was possible that the Windsprens' Investiture could feasibly comingle, which is another point in that theory's favor. 1 hour ago, therunner said: @alder24 never said any such a thing, at least that was not my understanding: Quote The upper breastplate segment of the Shardplate is separate from the lower segment, but still both are a part of the same piece, a breastplate, but they protect different parts of the body. Greave, which covers the lower leg, is made out of several segments, combined together with a sabaton, but there is still a clear distinction between frontal greave and back side of it. I don't want to suggest that each small plate is a separate spren (which might be the case), but there are a lot of pieces, fragments and segments of a Shardplate to count. Shardplates are far more detailed and decorative than plate armor, which gives it more room for separation of pieces into smaller distinctive segments. However, from RoW we know that the entire gauntlet, is seemingly just one spren. One spren smashes to the hand, gauntlet is in place only translucent (which full Plate can be made to be, so that is no evidence for gauntlet being incomplete). Per WoK chapter 26 where we get the description of putting on a Shardplate: Quote Next, they set the sabatons - armor for his boots - on the floow before hiim. They encased his boots entirely, and had a rough surface on the bottoms that seemed to cling to rocks. Sabaton encases the entire boot of Dalinar, and military boots are typically nearly up to knees. Greaves go on next, and they cover the up to and over the knees, locking on to sabatons: Quote The greaves came next, going over his legs and knees, locking on to the sabatons. Cuisses after to cover thighs Quote Dalinar stood still as the armor bearers affixed the cuisses over his thigs and locked them to the culet and faulds across his waist and lower back. So to entirely cover a single leg you need ~3-5 pieces of armor (Sabaton, greaves, cuiss, the last twopossibly doubled if they are attached one from front and the other from back). So legs require just 6-10 armor pieces. He already has culet, faulds, skirt goes over them next, so that is 4 pieces for torso and lower body. Breastplate is a single piece based on description (but could be two so lets go with that). Quote ...as the armor bearers locked his breasplate into place, then worked on the rerebraces and vambraces for his arms. For arm we know have rerebraces, vambrace, continuing with gauntlet: Quote Dalinar waved with his left hand as the armor bearers locked the gauntlet onto his right. So that is just 3 pieces for a single arm, so arms requires 6 pieces in total. Finally, goes gorget, pauldrons and helmet: Quote Then the gorget went over his head, covering his neck, the pauldrons on his shoulders and the helm on his head. This puts the total of distinct armor pieces for the entire Shardplate at 22-26. So 30 just for limbs is clearly not correct. 3-5 for each leg 3 for each arm 4 for lower torso (culet, faulds 2x, skirt) 5 for upper torso (breastplate 2x, gorget, pauldrons 2x) 1 Helm Yes, @therunner is right. I didn't want to suggest that that's how many spren is there, but just that there are different ways in which you can count the number of spren needed, and you can get way more than 12 depending on how you count. Giving it more thought I think that each piece of plate is a separate segment made out of a single spren.  So going back to the knight image there would be 5 segments per arm, 5 per leg (including Tassets), a breastplate made out of 5 segments: Cuirass, Plackart, Faulds and two sides segments (per Gavilar vs Szeths fight), a back side with Culet, made out of 2-3 pieces (upper and lower, or upper-left, upper-right and lower, I don't think it should be a single segment, it's too big), a skirt 1-2 segments, a bevor or gorget for neck and a helmet. In total that 30-32 segments, each made out of a single spren. WoK ch 58: Quote Resi’s attack—though well-executed—left him open, and Adolin made a careful strike at his opponent’s left vambrace, cracking the forearm plate. Resi attacked again, and Adolin again danced out of the way, then scored a hit on his opponent’s left thigh. [...] They worked. Resi bellowed and threw himself into one of Stonestance’s characteristic overhand blows. Adolin handled it perfectly, dropping his Blade to one hand, raising his left arm and taking the blow on his unharmed vambrace. It cracked badly, but the move allowed Adolin to bring his own Blade to the side and strike Resi’s cracked left cuisse. The thigh plate shattered with the sound of ripping metal, pieces blasting away, trailing smoke, glowing like molten steel. Resi stumbled back; his left leg could no longer bear the weight of the Shardplate. The match was over. More important duels might go for two or three broken plates, but that grew dangerous. ch 68: Quote The Parshendi man made an aggressive thrust. Setting his jaw, Dalinar raised his forearm to block and stepped into the attack, praying to the Heralds that his forearm plate would deect the blow. The Parshendi sword connected, shattering the Plate, sending a shock up Dalinar’s arm. The gauntlet on his st suddenly felt like a lead weight, but Dalinar kept moving, swinging his sword for his own attack. Not at the Parshendi’s armor, but at the stone beneath him. Even as the molten shards of Dalinar’s forearm plate sprayed in the air [...] Dalinar slammed his st—the one with the broken armguard— into the ground and released the gauntlet.  It's even better shown in WoR ch 56 and 57 - Adolin and Kaladin's duel against 4 opponents. I don't have an english version to quote, but pieces of named armor are cracked (like vambraces, rerebraces, pauldrons), Kaladin's lashed jump crack the plate but not on the back, but on sides and shoulders, proving once more there are side segments of plate, separate from frontal breastplate and back side.
Duxredux he/him Posted June 27, 2023 Posted June 27, 2023 @Underwater_Worldhopper, this is my point, durability of Roseite is a single property. The finesse that Roseite can be utilized is directly relevant to besting a Shardbearer. Being able to grow or move sections of Roseite on any portion of the Roseite structure is a major trait that Shardplate does not have (or at least not that we've ever seen practiced). Also... the OP specifically makes Twinsoul the Roseite combatant. Why does the exact number of spren in Shardplate matter again and does it warrant its own thread? Also we know that spren in Shardplate are fundamentally Connected to one another. Dead suits of Plate exist and by feeding a large chunk of armor Stormlight you can regrow the whole suit - even if someone has another piece they are giving Stormlight it will crumble away. Yes they can exist and be worn as separate pieces but the whole suit Cognitively and perhaps in other ways is considered as a whole. Also... were we really arguing over a copyediting error in the English text when one of the readers is from Poland? Soap box warning: Spoiler I worry about how many of these threads go when some people wander in and just want to chat with someone about this cool book they read and some ideas they had when they get an essay where they are told categorically with citations why they didn't understand the book they just read, or dismissed with a single sentence. Even then much of what they miss is because they haven't read decades of WoBs that discuss concepts barely touched on in the books. I have a decent education, though admittedly it's been a decade since I took a physics class, and I have trouble following some of these threads or understanding why some points get so hotly disputed. Defense on a stance is fine for a thesis or court of law, I worry that it is unhealthy to the community when taken to this degree on a fan forum. I know many of you genuinely love this kind of indepth debate and that it can be exhilarating that you've found other people who can engage with it at a level that you can. I don't want to take that away but... this format isn't always the most accessible. I don't know. Rants written at 5 AM may not have the best thinking, nor do I have solutions to offer. I'm not the only one seeing a cause for concern here, am I? Â
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted June 27, 2023 Author Posted June 27, 2023 3 hours ago, Duxredux said: @Underwater_Worldhopper, this is my point, durability of Roseite is a single property. The finesse that Roseite can be utilized is directly relevant to besting a Shardbearer. Being able to grow or move sections of Roseite on any portion of the Roseite structure is a major trait that Shardplate does not have (or at least not that we've ever seen practiced). Also... the OP specifically makes Twinsoul the Roseite combatant. Why does the exact number of spren in Shardplate matter again and does it warrant its own thread? Also we know that spren in Shardplate are fundamentally Connected to one another. Dead suits of Plate exist and by feeding a large chunk of armor Stormlight you can regrow the whole suit - even if someone has another piece they are giving Stormlight it will crumble away. Yes they can exist and be worn as separate pieces but the whole suit Cognitively and perhaps in other ways is considered as a whole. Also... were we really arguing over a copyediting error in the English text when one of the readers is from Poland? Soap box warning: Â Reveal hidden contents I worry about how many of these threads go when some people wander in and just want to chat with someone about this cool book they read and some ideas they had when they get an essay where they are told categorically with citations why they didn't understand the book they just read, or dismissed with a single sentence. Even then much of what they miss is because they haven't read decades of WoBs that discuss concepts barely touched on in the books. I have a decent education, though admittedly it's been a decade since I took a physics class, and I have trouble following some of these threads or understanding why some points get so hotly disputed. Defense on a stance is fine for a thesis or court of law, I worry that it is unhealthy to the community when taken to this degree on a fan forum. I know many of you genuinely love this kind of indepth debate and that it can be exhilarating that you've found other people who can engage with it at a level that you can. I don't want to take that away but... this format isn't always the most accessible. I don't know. Rants written at 5 AM may not have the best thinking, nor do I have solutions to offer. I'm not the only one seeing a cause for concern here, am I? Â No joke. I just like starting these threads because it is interesting to see how others think. Honestly, I feel like I know who will be on what sides of each conversation as I am posting it but I do like getting suprised sometimes. I am very obviously biased against shards and am always hoping to figure out alternatives to standing up to the tyrannical Rosharan's who hold those shards to themselves! Joking aside I love Roshar. I think Roshar is a fascinating setting for a story. I even love shardplate and shardblades. But everything is more fun when there are viable counters to it. Roshar and the shardbearers might be liked by me so much for the simple reason that I see them as a huge hurdle to overcome. I really want to see something beat them. I have given up on the fight against radiants. I think overcoming the invulnerable plate and insta kill blade is step one.Â
Underwater_Worldhopper he/him Posted June 27, 2023 Posted June 27, 2023 Â 9 hours ago, Duxredux said: Soap box warning: Â Hide contents I worry about how many of these threads go when some people wander in and just want to chat with someone about this cool book they read and some ideas they had when they get an essay where they are told categorically with citations why they didn't understand the book they just read, or dismissed with a single sentence. Even then much of what they miss is because they haven't read decades of WoBs that discuss concepts barely touched on in the books. I have a decent education, though admittedly it's been a decade since I took a physics class, and I have trouble following some of these threads or understanding why some points get so hotly disputed. Defense on a stance is fine for a thesis or court of law, I worry that it is unhealthy to the community when taken to this degree on a fan forum. I know many of you genuinely love this kind of indepth debate and that it can be exhilarating that you've found other people who can engage with it at a level that you can. I don't want to take that away but... this format isn't always the most accessible. I don't know. Rants written at 5 AM may not have the best thinking, nor do I have solutions to offer. I'm not the only one seeing a cause for concern here, am I? Â I guess it mostly depends on perspective. Science and fiction have both been passions of mine for a long time, and they come together in the Cosmere and other BS books. I've only been on the forums since late April, but I enjoy theorizing and discussing the specifics of things on here a lot. I check the Shard nearly every day, and when there aren't any threads I'm interested in, I start combing through old ones. There are just so many unexpected gems you can uncover about the worlds in these books just by discussing them with other people. Something in the text you missed, a WoB you'd never seen before, ideas you'd never think to come up with, it's captivating for me. Writing and worldbuilding are just as much an art as painting is, even more so if one considers that in writing you have to deal with ideas and concepts you yourself make up, and then must relay accurately to people you can never know in places you will never see, in languages you don't speak. It deserves to be talked about in detail, if just to expose just how much thought and effort goes into the books. I realize that when it gets more technical it may not be the most accessible thing in the world, but you can always ask for clarification or simplification if you're interested but don't quite understand. As for things getting hotly debated, I'm not so worried. It may get intense, but in my experience, they rarely ever become mean-spirited or in poor taste. You have to remember that because it's all words and no tone or expression is conveyed, sometimes you might read something and misinterpret what is trying to be communicated, or assume that someone has said something in a more negative way than what they intended. I acknowledge that sometimes people genuinely get offended or upset (like there was a thread on the Mistborn forum roughly 2 weeks back where two otherwise lovely Sharders got upset with each other), but there are moderators and other Sharders who can mediate or step in to calm the situation down if that happens. More likely you'll get frustrated people than actually upset ones, but it always gets resolved in the end. I wouldn't worry about it, people tend to always pull through in the end, and when they don't, there are always other people around to help.
therunner he/him Posted June 28, 2023 Posted June 28, 2023 (edited) On 27/06/2023 at 2:01 PM, Duxredux said: Soap box warning:  Reveal hidden contents I worry about how many of these threads go when some people wander in and just want to chat with someone about this cool book they read and some ideas they had when they get an essay where they are told categorically with citations why they didn't understand the book they just read, or dismissed with a single sentence. Even then much of what they miss is because they haven't read decades of WoBs that discuss concepts barely touched on in the books. I have a decent education, though admittedly it's been a decade since I took a physics class, and I have trouble following some of these threads or understanding why some points get so hotly disputed. Defense on a stance is fine for a thesis or court of law, I worry that it is unhealthy to the community when taken to this degree on a fan forum. I know many of you genuinely love this kind of indepth debate and that it can be exhilarating that you've found other people who can engage with it at a level that you can. I don't want to take that away but... this format isn't always the most accessible. I don't know. Rants written at 5 AM may not have the best thinking, nor do I have solutions to offer. I'm not the only one seeing a cause for concern here, am I?  I will echo @Underwater_Worldhopper , I do enjoy theorizing and the discussion that come with it. And yeah, sometimes it can become too heated (which is typically when either discussion goes into sociological aspects, or people start resorting to personal attacks instead of argumentation), however I don't think it has gotten to this point here yet, and I don't think it was on trajectory to get there. It can be frustrating sometimes, but all debates/discussions can be, and the best theories must stand the tests of being poked and prodded. Personally, I am more suited to the prodding, and not coming up with new theories myself, because most of the ideas I have a tear apart and never put anywhere. 20 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I even love shardplate and shardblades. But everything is more fun when there are viable counters to it. Roshar and the shardbearers might be liked by me so much for the simple reason that I see them as a huge hurdle to overcome. I really want to see something beat them. I have given up on the fight against radiants. I think overcoming the invulnerable plate and insta kill blade is step one. Oh I do agree! I hope (and think) there will be counters to both Shardplates and Shardblades in the future. I just don't think anything on screen so far rises to that level. And I think defense against Shardblade will always be temporary at best (outside of suppressors), because even Shardplate cannot withstand repeated blows and that is the best mobile defensive material we have seen in Cosmere (hypothetical spren shield not withstanding). SoTD2 spoilers:  Spoiler Shardplate will seemingly continue to be used in Era 4, which shows just how powerful it is. When the same tech survives basically unchanged for hundreds of years, I don't think it encounters any serious opposition over that time. Perhaps there will be some modifications along the way, but honestly, outside of streamlining the frills, there does not have to be any.  Edited June 28, 2023 by therunner
Duxredux he/him Posted June 29, 2023 Posted June 29, 2023 Thanks @Tamriel Wolfsbaine, @Underwater_Worldhopper, and @therunner for addressing my concern. It's a good reminder of the different reasons people come to the forums - like Tamriel who likes watching the way some minds think and seeing the in-depth thought that goes into the little details sometimes poking good-natured fun at alder24 who often will engage with people on even the little things. It's a good reminder that some people simply pop in and read an article, not because they necessarily want to contribute, but because they want to see brilliant minds processing an intricate supernatural system. I should say that I'm not referring just to this thread but more to general observations over the last couple of years (5 AM brain may have chosen to post my soap box on this thread because I figured there may be a "selection process" in that the people who read to the end of the technical debate in this thread were more likely to also engage in such a thread. Not sure if that was a good idea or not yet). Heated threads like that one on the Mistborn forum are the most visible signs of a problem, but it seems like I've seen a lot of threads where some of the more verbose and prolific longtime Sharders are in a full debate and another person adds in a small thought, often with less than 30-50 posts total on the Shard, and it barely gets acknowledged if not outright ignored as the other Sharders continue their debate. I can understand why this can happen with no intent to dismiss - it's a recurring joke that someone will start typing a response to a post and 5 people will have posted before they finish. With tagging, the forum will jump you to the post that tagged you, so it literally skips the rest of the conversation. I get this, and I get how and why it happens, but I worry this dismissal of new ideas and new people to be a much quieter problem to the health of the community. I haven't come up with any testable method of checking - because if someone left, they won't add in any input, creating a survivorship bias in my testing pool. Nor am I sure that asking some of the more brilliant minds to reign themselves in would be good - some people come just to read the sheer breadth of knowledge that is on display (often for many the reason they find Sanderson's books fascinating in the first place). I don't have good solutions, I'm just voicing a concern, one that I worry that people who leave would never say. In the same way that in a forum with only written text and no body language or facial expressions it can be easy to misinterpret the tone of someone's words, it is also difficult to see when someone metaphorically leaves the room or forum because they felt dismissed. There's plenty of other reasons to leave a forum as well - too busy, loss of interest, etc., but it sometimes feels like there's a lot of what could be taken as dismissal. It's a separate but related concern, but I worry we jump to analysis and dissection too early and stunt any brainstorming that was meant as brainstorming, not a hypothesis or theory to be tried with Occam's Razor. This isn't to say to let demonstrably wrong ideas slide, but there's a lot of conjecture on what can or can't be done with Invested arts that have never been seen on page together. This thread asked for that conjecture, but you are way more confident on how Aetherbound work than I am, and I've read AoN. It's also possible that I'm just overreacting when I see something that could be potentially harmful. I was a sanitation and safety supervisor for an university right when COVID broke out and I'm pretty sure some members of my team thought I was stuffy and paranoid. I totally am that person that reads OSHA manuals (U.S. Occupational Health and Safety) and writes my own safety literature for my team. And yes, the Knight's Radiant quiz puts me as a Windrunner, so if those mighty worrier (not a misspelling) tendencies are too much or too early, then I'll reign them in.   Hoo. Okay. Now that I know that everyone on this thread is fine with how it has gone, then let's get back into it. I'm not sure if I would go so far with that SotD2 concept. Spoiler Just because Plate has persisted doesn't mean it has kept pace as nigh-unbeatable armoring with few drawbacks. For aboriginals barely advancing to gunpowder, they don't need anything hardier. Just because Truespren and fabrials have advanced doesn't mean the Platespren have had major developments. They may use it anyway because it's built in to their powerset, maybe it's convenient to cover their form or as a space suit. It's like how the role of Copperclouds and Soothers have changed through the eras though their abilities haven't. Plate could be just as OP this far into the future but it's not the only option. Shardbearers sure get beaten up a lot in SA. Another possible limitation I could see is perhaps Plate and spren in general having issues off Roshar the same way that a lack of an Investiture field on Scadrial meant that TwinSoul's Roseite had limitations and needed more constant replenishment of Investiture or water or else it would crumble. If Plate and summoning a Blade needed ambient Investiture or an external Investiture source to persist or provide strength enhancement, we wouldn't be able to tell just yet because no one has gotten Shardblade or Plate off world yet. If Shardplate ends up drawing a lot of power off Roshar, then it becomes an economics and resource challenge to deploy it. It may even explain why we haven't seen Design off-world or in the PR, even though Hoid certainly has gotten around. I'll also note that Shardplate and Shardblades as far as I can tell haven't demonstrated significant differences in power based on the size of the object manifested by the Spren. In fact we know that the physical mass of the object itself changes, not simply becoming more or less dense as volume changes. Plate resizes to fit the wearer and you can go from a Shardfork all the way up to Oathbringer and it still works. You would think Investiture density would be the main factor, but apparently it's the actual mass of the Blade manifested that helps break through Shardplate. See: Spoiler [deleted] Given Brandon's answer to a block of Cheese stopping a shardblade, how does the last clap work? Brandon Sanderson So, I'll admit, I've been considering the cheese question since it was asked. I'm not sure if it has to be cheese. But any object that is sufficiently thick but also sufficiently pliable that it's going to press down on the blade while it's cutting IS going to create drag on the blade. The Blade does, by necessity of my understanding of the relevant physics, need to be able to vaporize a tiny bit of matter into Investiture while cutting, in order to create space for the Blade to continue to slide through. This is related to why it doesn't cut things with souls. At the same time, I'm not convinced that this is relevant to the actual question being asked. I think that I have to relent that, with a sufficiently large block of cheese and a Shardbearer trying to cut lengthwise through it, the drag produced on the flat of the blade is going to tire the Shardbearer. Making cheese legitimately more difficult to cut through than stone or metal. And a big enough block of cheese might stop the slice straight up, because the weight placed on the blade will be pretty heavy. That said, the top replies to this thread are pretty relevant, and are correctly explaining the mechanics of the situation. There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is. My current instinct says that wider blades would be stopped by this, and so those of you planning to make ten-foot-thick walls of cheese to stop an invading Shardbearer can continue in your...endeavors. Remember, kids, keep your Shardblade thin for actual combat (for multiple reasons.) Only make the big showy forms when you're trying to look intimidating. (With a nod to the fact that a thick blade does tend to be better for getting through Shardplate, giving you more mass to hit with. Choose Adolin's Blade for Shardplate Duels. Szeth/Jezrien's Honorblade for cheese.) General Reddit 2022 (March 19, 2022) Which brings me back to catching or otherwise slowing the Blade without resorting to the material itself having to resist a Shardblade's field of vaporization.
therunner he/him Posted June 30, 2023 Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, Duxredux said: I should say that I'm not referring just to this thread but more to general observations over the last couple of years (5 AM brain may have chosen to post my soap box on this thread because I figured there may be a "selection process" in that the people who read to the end of the technical debate in this thread were more likely to also engage in such a thread. Not sure if that was a good idea or not yet). Heated threads like that one on the Mistborn forum are the most visible signs of a problem, but it seems like I've seen a lot of threads where some of the more verbose and prolific longtime Sharders are in a full debate and another person adds in a small thought, often with less than 30-50 posts total on the Shard, and it barely gets acknowledged if not outright ignored as the other Sharders continue their debate. I can understand why this can happen with no intent to dismiss - it's a recurring joke that someone will start typing a response to a post and 5 people will have posted before they finish. With tagging, the forum will jump you to the post that tagged you, so it literally skips the rest of the conversation. I get this, and I get how and why it happens, but I worry this dismissal of new ideas and new people to be a much quieter problem to the health of the community. Yeah, I am kind of guilty of this :/ It is not that I don't read the previous posts, typically I try. But because composing a reply in threads like these typically takes me around ~40 minutes, and by then I usually have to move to other things (or even sooner, which causes me some issues ), so I end up only replying to people who specifically mentioned me. I see these threads as sort-of running 'parallel' discussion sometimes, where not everyone interacts with everyone, but I understand that is most likely not viewpoint of everyone. 15 hours ago, Duxredux said: It's a separate but related concern, but I worry we jump to analysis and dissection too early and stunt any brainstorming that was meant as brainstorming, not a hypothesis or theory to be tried with Occam's Razor. This isn't to say to let demonstrably wrong ideas slide, but there's a lot of conjecture on what can or can't be done with Invested arts that have never been seen on page together. This thread asked for that conjecture, but you are way more confident on how Aetherbound work than I am, and I've read AoN. I've read AoN as well It has been a while but I did. I am typically quite conservative with my statements (i.e. books + WoBs, unreleased chapters, mild generalizations) and more mentally suited to poking holes in other theories, which can make me seem as sort of 'hard-a**'. With threads that are specifically only wild conjecture I don't engage (e.g. Twinborn combos), simply because I would be dampening their fun for no good reason. This thread asked for strength of Roseite along various dimensions (those I had nothing to add to that was not already said), and how it might match up against Shardbearer, which is not inherently asking only for brainstorming. I answered that to the best of my knowledge and ability, using information I see as solid as possible (e.g. how other things we see interact with Shardblades, other possible properites of Aethers from WoBs). 15 hours ago, Duxredux said: It's also possible that I'm just overreacting when I see something that could be potentially harmful. I was a sanitation and safety supervisor for an university right when COVID broke out and I'm pretty sure some members of my team thought I was stuffy and paranoid. I totally am that person that reads OSHA manuals (U.S. Occupational Health and Safety) and writes my own safety literature for my team. And yes, the Knight's Radiant quiz puts me as a Windrunner, so if those mighty worrier (not a misspelling) tendencies are too much or too early, then I'll reign them in. Eh, better to err on the side of caution than the other way around And you are being quite polite about it, I think. So no harm no foul. 15 hours ago, Duxredux said: I'm not sure if I would go so far with that SotD2 concept.  Reveal hidden contents Just because Plate has persisted doesn't mean it has kept pace as nigh-unbeatable armoring with few drawbacks. For aboriginals barely advancing to gunpowder, they don't need anything hardier. Just because Truespren and fabrials have advanced doesn't mean the Platespren have had major developments. They may use it anyway because it's built in to their powerset, maybe it's convenient to cover their form or as a space suit. It's like how the role of Copperclouds and Soothers have changed through the eras though their abilities haven't. Plate could be just as OP this far into the future but it's not the only option. Shardbearers sure get beaten up a lot in SA.  Well my viewpoint is that: Spoiler Rosharans are comfortable sending a single envoy with Plate to a planet being courted by Scadrians, who send a whole spaceship. And the Rosharan never gives the impression of feeling in danger. That speaks for something.  15 hours ago, Duxredux said: Another possible limitation I could see is perhaps Plate and spren in general having issues off Roshar the same way that a lack of an Investiture field on Scadrial meant that TwinSoul's Roseite had limitations and needed more constant replenishment of Investiture or water or else it would crumble. If Plate and summoning a Blade needed ambient Investiture or an external Investiture source to persist or provide strength enhancement, we wouldn't be able to tell just yet because no one has gotten Shardblade or Plate off world yet. If Shardplate ends up drawing a lot of power off Roshar, then it becomes an economics and resource challenge to deploy it. Three points: Roseite requires Investiture field only when disconnected from Aetherbound, and hence the entity that it is part of. Shardblade and Shardplate are always Connected to the spren that make them up, because they are them. This would suggest that neither Blade nor Plate would crumble. Shardblade definitely does not require external power source (see all non-Radiant summoning and using deadblades), and Living Plate seems to use Investiture only to heal itself (see RoW, specifically Jasnah battle, she runs out of Stormlight but her Plate keeps functioning). Deadplate does require Stormlight to function as we see multiple times. The fact that disconnected pieces of (dead)Plate do crumble to dust, suggests that Roshar does not have Investiture field. Assuming the crumbling to dust is analogous to Roseite crumbling to dust. So I come to conclusion that neither Living Plate nor Blade require Investiture to persist or function. Plate does require Light to heal, and Deadplate does requires light to function. Additionally, based on disconnected pieces of Plate crumbling, I would posit that Roshar does not have ambient Investiture field. Quote It may even explain why we haven't seen Design off-world or in the PR, even though Hoid certainly has gotten around. SP3: Spoiler We will actually see Design there, taking care of a bar, with Hoid being frozen somehow? If I remember right from the previews.  15 hours ago, Duxredux said: I'll also note that Shardplate and Shardblades as far as I can tell haven't demonstrated significant differences in power based on the size of the object manifested by the Spren. In fact we know that the physical mass of the object itself changes, not simply becoming more or less dense as volume changes. Plate resizes to fit the wearer and you can go from a Shardfork all the way up to Oathbringer and it still works. You would think Investiture density would be the main factor, but apparently it's the actual mass of the Blade manifested that helps break through Shardplate. See:  Reveal hidden contents [deleted] Given Brandon's answer to a block of Cheese stopping a shardblade, how does the last clap work? Brandon Sanderson So, I'll admit, I've been considering the cheese question since it was asked. I'm not sure if it has to be cheese. But any object that is sufficiently thick but also sufficiently pliable that it's going to press down on the blade while it's cutting IS going to create drag on the blade. The Blade does, by necessity of my understanding of the relevant physics, need to be able to vaporize a tiny bit of matter into Investiture while cutting, in order to create space for the Blade to continue to slide through. This is related to why it doesn't cut things with souls. At the same time, I'm not convinced that this is relevant to the actual question being asked. I think that I have to relent that, with a sufficiently large block of cheese and a Shardbearer trying to cut lengthwise through it, the drag produced on the flat of the blade is going to tire the Shardbearer. Making cheese legitimately more difficult to cut through than stone or metal. And a big enough block of cheese might stop the slice straight up, because the weight placed on the blade will be pretty heavy. That said, the top replies to this thread are pretty relevant, and are correctly explaining the mechanics of the situation. There is this little "shield of vaporization" around a Blade while it cuts, so a thinner Blade (like Szeth's Honorblade) might not have this drawback at all. It depends on how far back the shield of vaporization extends, and how thick the blade is. My current instinct says that wider blades would be stopped by this, and so those of you planning to make ten-foot-thick walls of cheese to stop an invading Shardbearer can continue in your...endeavors. Remember, kids, keep your Shardblade thin for actual combat (for multiple reasons.) Only make the big showy forms when you're trying to look intimidating. (With a nod to the fact that a thick blade does tend to be better for getting through Shardplate, giving you more mass to hit with. Choose Adolin's Blade for Shardplate Duels. Szeth/Jezrien's Honorblade for cheese.) General Reddit 2022 (March 19, 2022)  Thanks for the reminder of this. It makes sense, we know that Plate can break even from ordinary damage, and so merely having more Physical mass behind strike should do more damage. But I don't think it can be just mass of the Blade, Investiture density clearly must play a role as well based on all of the WoBs on Investiture playing a role in this. Quote Which brings me back to catching or otherwise slowing the Blade without resorting to the material itself having to resist a Shardblade's field of vaporization. Catching a Blade will not be a great tactic, since Shardbearer can dismiss it to free it. It would grant some advantage against someone with Deadblade (for 10 heartbeats or a bit less, if they are like Adolin), but anyone with Living spren could simply skip through the obstacle, or change shape of the blade.  Edited June 30, 2023 by therunner
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