Amaram's 2nd shardblade

[FatSpren]

I got the impression that the shardblade that Amaram shows to Shallan (who appears as a messenger boy) is not the one that Kaladin got for him, but is, a second, newer one.  Amaram says, "The blade is still new to me.  I find excuses to summon it."

 

This is consistent with Amaram's story that he got the blade only four months ago from an assasin that was sent after him (Helaran). 

 

I do audiobooks, so it's hard for me to go back and find and compare the right supporting quotes.  But I figure this might be proved or disproved by comparing the description of the shardblade Kaladin sees on the battlefield to the one that Amaram shows to Shallan.

 

Thoughts?

[Kurkistan]

First of all, welcome to the forums!

 

Second, you're wrong (I think)! ()

 

I made a point of going back and looking at the relevant section in WoK, and the blade is definitely described in the same way there as it is in WoR.

[king of nowhere]

On the other, hand, even if the blade is the same, I like the idea that he really officially became a shardbearer only four months prior, after acquiring a second set of shards from another assassination attempt. not very likely, though

[She Who Cannot Be Named]

Apart from that: Shallan clearly recognised it as Helaran's Shardblade whom Kaladin has killed.

 

 

"Highlord Amaram continued to stare at the Shardblade in the night. ... Could it be a coincidence? Two weapons that looked the same? Perhaps her memory was flawed.

No. No, she would never forget the look of that Blade. It was the one Helaran had held. And no two Blades were the same."

Words of Radiance. Chapter 52

 

He did feel a chill as she mentioned her brother Helaran's death, anger in her voice.

Helaran had been killed in Alethkar. At Amaram's hands.

Storms... I killed him, didn't I?

Word of Radience, Chapter 74

Edit: Welcome to the forums

Edited July 5, 2014 by She Who Cannot Be Named

[Argent]

For an extra bit of obscure counter evidence, Brandon said that originally he was going to have Amaram dual-wield Shardblades (in The Way of Kings Prime), but then decided against it.

[FatSpren]

(How do I do quotes?)

 

"Highlord Amaram continued to stare at the Shardblade in the night. ... Could it be a coincidence? Two weapons that looked the same? Perhaps her memory was flawed.

No. No, she would never forget the look of that Blade. It was the one Helaran had held. And no two Blades were the same."

Words of Radiance. Chapter 52

 

Yes, no doubt that Shallan recognized Helaran's Shardblade correctly in Amaram's hands.

 

I'm only thinking (hoping) that Kaladin didn't actually kill Helaran. 

 

I'm thinking that perhaps Amaram got his first blade via Kaladin.  Then at a later point, Helaran came as an assassin, but was killed, thus giving Amaram a second blade.

 

 

We know that Kaladin killed a shardbearer in battle.  And that Amaram took the Shardblade.  My question is, do we know for sure that the Shardbearer that Kaladin killed was, in fact, Helaran?

 

And here's something else that's a little suspicious too:

Kal got Amaram his blade over a year ago.  So why is Amaram saying he got his blade only four months ago?  Why hasn't he been using it since the moment he made Kal a slave?

[She Who Cannot Be Named]

(How do I do quotes?)

From another post: Just look at the lower right corner of the post you want to quote. There's a "Quote" button.

Otherwise just click on the speech bubble in the editor. (I think there's also a third option/command line, but I can*t recall it right now... somthing along /quote and /endquote ?)

 

Description of the Shardblade of the person killed by Kaladin:

 

 

Lika a god carrying a majestic blade that should have been to big to use. It was engraved and stylized, shaped like flames in motion.

WoK, Chapter 47

 

Something formed in Helaran's hand, a line of mist that coalesced into silvery steel. A Blade some six feet long, curved and thick, with the side that wasn't sharp rising into a shape like burning flames or perhaps ripples of water. It had a gemstone set at the pommel, and as light reflected off the metal, the ridges seemed to move.

WoR, Chapter 19

And Amaram's Blade is described like this:

 

A Blade with the back edge ridged like flowing waves. Or perhaps tongues of fire. Etchings all along its surface. Curved, sinuous.

Description of Amarams's Shardblade, WoR, Chapter 52

engraved: check

stylized: ?

back edge/dull side: flowing flames/water design: check

curved: check

 

It seems to be the same blade, provided Amaram wasn't able to find two very similar looking swords

 

Concerning the time-frame: it wouldn't be the first time for Amaram to lie... (I can't find a quote describing the colour of his Shardplate, Helaran's used to be golden.)

[Argent]

You could fudge with the facts and make it look like Kaladin killed a Shardbearer who was not Heleran, and then Amaram acquired Heleran's Blade on his own... but doing so not only violates, but downright stomps Occam's Razor. Every related piece of evidence suggests that it was Kaladin who killed Amaram.

 

As to the discrepancy with the time periods... it's not the first time Amaram has lied. Obscuring the truth as much as possible only makes it more difficult for other people to poke holes in his story.

[WeiryWriter]

You could fudge with the facts and make it look like Kaladin killed a Shardbearer who was not Heleran, and then Amaram acquired Heleran's Blade on his own... but doing so not only violates, but downright stomps Occam's Razor. Every related piece of evidence suggests that it was Kaladin who killed Amaram.

 

As to the discrepancy with the time periods... it's not the first time Amaram has lied. Obscuring the truth as much as possible only makes it more difficult for other people to poke holes in his story.

 

^This. And also keep in mind that the Shardbearer Kaladin kills is described as a red-haired Veden.  I'd much rather go with the known liar lying rather than "Oh these two different Shardbearers who have similar looking blades and red hair who are probably Veden aren't the same"

[She Who Cannot Be Named]

A bit off-topic: There IS something off about all that. It is bothering me that Helaran's blade has a gemstone set into the pommel. Apparently gemstones are not part of the original design, and have later been added to bind a blade to a person.

Helaran was supposed to be a Skybreaker. Everything would be alright if he were one of Nin's "Knights", who very likely won't be bonded to spren. (Or Nin is a complete hypocrite and only kills Surgebinders of other orders...)

But then there's this tidbit

 

"Jasnah's ward?" Adrotagia said.

They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been traines. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl's brother, before his death.

WoR, Interlude 14

I doubt that even Jasnah had access to books describing Surgebinding, Helaran even less likely (if he had not been a Surgebinder). How would he have taught her something only vaguely referenced in myths?

 

I'm... kind of confused now ^^

[Fifth of Daybreak]

My theory is Skybreakers kill their spren on purpose in order to prevent desolations, requiring gemstones to bond the blades. There's a link to that thread (was Helaran a surgebinder) in my espoused theories spoilertag. The link takes you right to my post, so you'll have to go to the begining of the thread.

But yeah, big mystery. I used my question when I met Brandon to try and figure it out. Actually it was that mystery that finally brought me to the 17th shard as a poster and not a lurker.

Edited July 6, 2014 by EMTrevor

[She Who Cannot Be Named]

Seems... plausible. Thanks, I'll give it some more thought

[FatSpren]

^This. And also keep in mind that the Shardbearer Kaladin kills is described as a red-haired Veden.  I'd much rather go with the known liar lying rather than "Oh these two different Shardbearers who have similar looking blades and red hair who are probably Veden aren't the same"

 

Yeah, I guess the blades have been described with similar enough designs that there's really nothing left to my theory.  And I totally missed that bit about Kaladin's dead Shardbearer being a red-haired Veden.  Bummer.  Kaladin killed Helaran.  That's gonna be a wedge between Kal and Shallan when she finds out.

 

 

There's still something funny about the time between getting the Shardblade (from Helaran via Kaladin) and then telling people he's a Shardbearer.  Why would Amaram (or any high lord) take a Shardblade and then not immediately let everyone know that he's a Shardbearer?  Why keep it hidden for months?  Yes, Amaram is a known liar, but it seems like an awfully elaborate and patient lie for someone who covets Shardblades so deeply.   I can't see Amaram as a guy who would have a blade for months and not use it or let anyone know he had it.

[Savanorn]

Yeah, I guess the blades have been described with similar enough designs that there's really nothing left to my theory.  And I totally missed that bit about Kaladin's dead Shardbearer being a red-haired Veden.  Bummer.  Kaladin killed Helaran.  That's gonna be a wedge between Kal and Shallan when she finds out.

 

 

There's still something funny about the time between getting the Shardblade (from Helaran via Kaladin) and then telling people he's a Shardbearer.  Why would Amaram (or any high lord) take a Shardblade and then not immediately let everyone know that he's a Shardbearer?  Why keep it hidden for months?  Yes, Amaram is a known liar, but it seems like an awfully elaborate and patient lie for someone who covets Shardblades so deeply.   I can't see Amaram as a guy who would have a blade for months and not use it or let anyone know he had it.

 

 

Well, actually it is a pretty straightforward lie. Why would he lie? Why wouldn't he? It doesn't really matter, because he obviously has. Amaram wields Helaran's shardblade, as previous evidence has concluded. It's also a relatively simple and straightforward conclusion without much risk of inaccuracy.  

 

As for why he might want to wait...well...For instance, even if anyone were to believe Kaladin's story, it doesn't match up with Amaram's. Amaram no doubt has hundreds of people willing to vouch for the truth of his, Kaladin has no one. As Amaram and co. planned. On top of that, Amaram is already a high lord, being a shardbearer might be prestigious...but Amaram isn't really all about the prestige (he's not really a typical Alethi) nor does he even really need it.

On top of THAT, well, maybe it's not even about Kaladin but about who sent Helaran. Amaram believes this to be the ghostbloods, and immediately revealing he killed their assassin would let them know they failed. It could provoke a second attempt, especially before he was ready. Even during the time between when he had the Blade and when he revealed it, he has a significant advantage over would-be assassins. We saw how well Shallan, hardly a hardened combatant, could use her blade to kill someone, and the numerous ruminations on how easy it is to kill people with secret shardblades, even how easily Dalinar got the jump on Amaram because he knew Amaram had a blade, but Amaram didn't know he did. 

 

 

Secret shardbearers are not exactly unheard of (King of Jah Keved) and, further, Amaram wouldn't really need Shards back in Alethkar. It's a small-time back-and-forth war and, apart from Helaran, no one was really even bothering to use Shards there. Besides, it's not like Amaram couldn't bond his blade and keep his blade secret, just in case he does need them, then announce it later. So he's not losing the Shards by not revealing them.  

There's also other more conjecture-based stuff, like maybe Amaram had some other reason he was staying in Alethkar and he subsequently revealed his Shards when he wanted to begin to make plans for the Shattered Plains, because being a Shardbearer he now had the perfect reason to be going there. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I think the main reason he lied is how improbable it was he killed a shardbearer with a broken leg.

[Aleksiel]

Even though I think Kaladin killed Helaran, there's this that bothers: what was a Skybreaker doing on the battlefield, committing a crime by murdering a Brightlord? Nalan has expressed interest only in proto-Radiants, who break the law. whereas Amaram was lawful (well, at least the attempted murder wasn't based on legal charges) and he definitely was not a surgebinder. 

 

So, why in the name of the Almighty did Helaran abandon his fellow Skybreakers to go and illegally kill Amaram, murdering other innocent people in the process? Nalan is definitely against killing people you don't have the proper paper work for. The Sons of Honor want Dasolation unlike the Skybreakers, though the latter seem convinced it's surgebinders, who cause Desolations and not random people's actions.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

Even though I think Kaladin killed Helaran, there's this that bothers: what was a Skybreaker doing on the battlefield, committing a crime by murdering a Brightlord? Nalan has expressed interest only in proto-Radiants, who break the law. whereas Amaram was lawful (well, at least the attempted murder wasn't based on legal charges) and he definitely was not a surgebinder. 

 

So, why in the name of the Almighty did Helaran abandon his fellow Skybreakers to go and illegally kill Amaram, murdering other innocent people in the process? Nalan is definitely against killing people you don't have the proper paper work for. The Sons of Honor want Dasolation unlike the Skybreakers, though the latter seem convinced it's surgebinders, who cause Desolations and not random people's actions.

 

Do we have proof Helaran was a Skybreaker? If Helaran was indeed working with the Ghostblood, than why was his family still in a precarious situation? If Helaran was this powerfull Radiant, than why did he let his brothers and his sister suffer needlessly under his father's harsh treatment? Where did he get the shards to begin with? If indeed he was a Radiant, than how is it he even has shards? Was he not hearing it screaming?

 

Too many things do not add up with Helaran.....

 

As for Amaram, I have been wondering if he perhaps recovered Taln's honorblade.......

[Fifth of Daybreak]

In the Prologue, the other man talking to Nalan (presumably a herald, most widely assumed to be Kalak, though I think Ishar personally,) links Gavilar's murder to them. 

 

 

"I don't like this. What we've done was wrong. That creature carries my lord's own Blade. We shouldn't have let him keep it. He-"

WoR Prologue-To Question

 

Amaram is most definitely a Son of Honor, and a lot of clues we have point towards Gavilar being one as well. The Sons of Honor are attempting to bring back Desolation in order to bring back the Heralds and the rule of the church, so taking out Amaram is not very far removed from his goal, which is to prevent Desolations from returning. It stands to reason if he's acting to prevent Desolations, he wouldn't just limit himself to one piece of the puzzle, but would also kill people who are actively working against that goal as well.

 

As for the killings, is it really illegal to kill on a battlefield? I don't think any men on either side of the battle are going to get charged with any sort of crime, so going to a battlefield to take out Amaram makes the most sense. If it had been the Ghostbloods, they would most likely do it in a sneaky way, but the Skybreakers had to use the chance they had to kill him in a lawful way. 

 

We know that killing Surgebinders is one way he's working to prevent Desolations, it doesn't necessarily mean there aren't other things that could cause it that the Skybreakers are working against. He never says that's the only thing he's doing to prevent them on screen.

 

 

 

Do we have proof Helaran was a Skybreaker? If Helaran was indeed working with the Ghostblood, than why was his family still in a precarious situation?

 

 

. . .Mraize stepped closer to her, towering over her. "You don't know who we are. You don't know what we're trying to accomplish. You don't know much of anything at all, Veil. Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers? I have done some research you see. I have answers for you."

WoR Chapter 88 The Man Who Owned The Winds

 

Helaran is not working for the Ghostbloods, and Mraize states it as simple fact he's a Skybreaker. He's also willing to cite sources is seems, so I wouldn't doubt him. 

[Aleksiel]

Do we have proof Helaran was a Skybreaker? If Helaran was indeed working with the Ghostblood, than why was his family still in a precarious situation? If Helaran was this powerfull Radiant, than why did he let his brothers and his sister suffer needlessly under his father's harsh treatment? Where did he get the shards to begin with? If indeed he was a Radiant, than how is it he even has shards? Was he not hearing it screaming?

 

Too many things do not add up with Helaran.....

 

As for Amaram, I have been wondering if he perhaps recovered Taln's honorblade.......

 

Mraize says Helaran was a member of the Skybreakers and Lin was the one, who worked with the Ghostbloods. The Skybreakers lead by Nin don't seem to possess surgebinding powers, so Helaran was a member of the Order without being a Radiant.

 

I think there's WoB the Blade that Taln appeared in Kholinar is the same Dalinar bonded, so Amaram didn't get an Honorblade as he first sees Taln in WoR. 

 

edit: spelling

Edited July 6, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth of Daybreak]

 

 

I think there's WoB the Blade that Taln appeared in Kholinar is the same Dalinar bonded, so Amaram didn't get an Honorblade as he first sees Taln in WoR. 

 

edit: spelling

 

 

Those definitely aren't the same Blades. Dalinar's Blade wouldn't have screamed if it was an Honorblade, and they have different descriptions, the one appearing in WoK being described as a spike, and the one Dalinar bonds being described as cleaver like, IIRC. I think the WoB you're thinking of states that the man who refers to himself as Taln in Kholinar is the same man who refers to himself as Taln who is taken to the warcamps. 

[maxal]

Mraize says Helaran was a member of the Skybreakers and Lin was the one, who worked with the Ghostbloods. The Skybreakers lead by Nin don't seem to possess surgebinding powers, so Helaran was a member of the Order without being a Radiant.

 

I think there's WoB the Blade that Taln appeared in Kholinar is the same Dalinar bonded, so Amaram didn't get an Honorblade as he first sees Taln in WoR. 

 

edit: spelling

 

Mraize said that? Gee, I missed it completely. He cannot be a member of an order without a spren. That just does not fit. Whatever Nin has, it is not an order, but a bunch of wild gooses willing to do his killing for him.

[Aleksiel]

Those definitely aren't the same Blades. Dalinar's Blade wouldn't have screamed if it was an Honorblade, and they have different descriptions, the one appearing in WoK being described as a spike, and the one Dalinar bonds being described as cleaver like, IIRC. I think the WoB you're thinking of states that the man who refers to himself as Taln in Kholinar is the same man who refers to himself as Taln who is taken to the warcamps. 

 

Ah, you're right, my bad. I thought Taln didn't have a Honorblade, just a normal spren-Blade. Anyway, I still don't think Amaram was able to get the original Blade Taln had, because Amaram didn't have the chance to get his hands on it before Dalinar's men.

 

I think there was a discussion about how Hoid might have taken it on the way from Kholinar to the Shattered Plains, though I think Bordin woud have noticed the Blade suddenly looked different. Unless Hoid Ligtweaved and switched Blades from the very beggining at the gate or something. Whatever happened to the Blade, Amaram doesn't have it.

[Aleksiel]

Mraize said that? Gee, I missed it completely. 

 

He did in Urithiru when he knew Shallan was Veil:

 

 

You don’t know much of anything at all, Veil. Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers?

 

Now, about Helaran:

 

 

He cannot be a member of an order without a spren. That just does not fit. Whatever Nin has, it is not an order, but a bunch of wild gooses willing to do his killing for him.

 

First, we know the Orders had more than just Radiants as members. Second, it depends on your definition of what the Order is. WoB has it Szeth was approached by a member of one Order and that's most likely Nin asking him to join the Skybreakers. They are lead the Herald their order is based on and seem to follow the original philosophy to put law above all else (the Skybreakers second ideal), so I do not think one has to have a spren to belong to a certain Radiant Order. 

 

edit: sorry about the double post, I wanted to edit my previous one, but somehow made a new post instead.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Maxal, I posted the direct Mraize quote earlier in the thread.

WoB says Hoid didn't switch the Blade but noted it was a good question. That Blade is another huge mystery.

Edited July 6, 2014 by EMTrevor

[maxal]

First, we know the Orders had more than just Radiants as members. Second, it depends on your definition of what the Order is. WoB has it Szeth was approached by a member of one Order and that's most likely Nin asking him to join the Skybreakers. They are lead the Herald their order is based on and seem to follow the original philosophy to put law above all else (the Skybreakers second ideal), so I do not think one has to have a spren to belong to a certain Radiant Order. 

 

edit: sorry about the double post, I wanted to edit my previous one, but somehow made a new post instead.

 

Wouldn't that refute the whole purpose of an order? Seeing what our main crew has been through to get a spren, to be made Radiant, how can it be this easy afterwards to simply join one order? Besides, these people certainly aren't real Skybreaker (no surgebinding) nor do they act according to the spirit of the Skybreakers. Murdering people because their deaths is convenient certainly does not fit the purpose of the policemen of the Radiants. They should be looking for people who deserve punishment (*cough* Sadeas *cough* Amaram *cough*) and not poor people whose death would advance some hidden agenda. I just cannot see these actions as Radian-like.