Stoneward vs

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Okay.  I don't really have a specific vs battle in mind but I do think that the vs battles are where I hear so much of the outrageous acts of radiants and uses of the magic systems.  

I want to pose a vs battle against a stoneward.  

I guess I will start it with vs mistborn and I imagine the whole stonesinew thing will wrap up that battle quickly.  At 3rd oath the stoneward has the magic sword and the healing but does he need it?  Being able to turn anything into a weapon is pretty epic and I imagine they possess the trick for entire army engulfing and then crushing CC/mass destruction action we see nearly every order get in the form of "ground to quicksand and back to solid".  

Also who needs healing when you can literally turn your skin harder than Kalad's Phantoms?  I imagine turning into something worthy of the nickname "Stonesinew" would be more stormlight efficient than getting cut in half and regrowing part of yourself.  

I am curious if it were a vs battle against a shardbearer do you think stonewards can use their surges at 3rd ideal in a way to mimick shardplate at the 4th?  Not fully as that would be redundant, but in terms of being able to defend themselves against shardblade cuts?  In other words, could a stoneward make their own bodies invested enough through tension or cohesion that they can resist a shardblade cut?  

If you want to discuss specific scenarios I would pose the old mistborn vs stoneward of 2nd oath. And of 3rd and 4th oaths.  

I think stonewards have better luck against mistborn at 2nd oath than the windrunners do personally.  Probably not better luck that dustbringers and elsecallers.  

Mistborn has no atium (would atium matter though if you can get engulfed by the ground itself and your opponents skin is as hard as stone?) I think maintaining thick skin is probably more sparing to stormlight than just healing back all of a mistborns attacks while they use atium.  

Leeching would be a big issue to watch out for but also everything you touch can become a flexible or ridged weapon in an instant.  

 

Also... in terms of weaponry of a 2nd oath or even 3rd oath stoneward I have to nod my head at good old Bloodborne's beast cutter as the perfect Stoneward weapon.  Strength weapon which can flow from ridged to flexible when needed and packs a wonderfully delightful punch when used.  

 

[NameIess]

If you ask me, there's too many unknowns surrounding Stoneward powers. We don't know if they can harden their own skin, what the distance at which they can use their powers is, how fast they use Stormlight, or how leeching affects their powers.

That said, even if we give Stonewards the benefit of the doubt it won't be an instant loss for a prepared Mistborn. Stonewards are good on the ground, but can't fly or even hover. That gives Mistborn a solid mobility advantage. 3rd-4th ideal would probably not lose, but they'd have a hard time outright winning.

[Frustration]

Given that they can liquefy the ground, dropping not only the Mistborn, but their anchor into solid stone only to immediately resolidify it, I say that it becomes a pretty easy win for the Stoneward.

[The Stick]

They could probably use electrum to see themselves falling into quicksand, so they largely avoid that danger. The real issue for the Stoneward is that that cannot really hit the mistborn. It is really a war of attrition. The Stoneward needs the mistborn to run out of steel and the mistborn needs the Stoneward to use up their Stormlight. How many metal vials are given to the mistborn and how much Stormlight to the Stoneward?

[NameIess]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given that they can liquefy the ground, dropping not only the Mistborn, but their anchor into solid stone only to immediately resolidify it, I say that it becomes a pretty easy win for the Stoneward.

Anchors can be pushed through stone, so as long as the Mistborn stays high in the air pushing off a couple different anchors they should be fine.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Nameless*

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless* said:

Anchors can be pushed through stone, so as long as the Mistborn stays high in the air pushing off a couple different anchors they should be fine.

They can only push through so much stone, they don't have to sink that deep to be brought out of reach.

Not to mention the investiture interference.

[NameIess]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

They can only push through so much stone, they don't have to sink that deep to be brought out of reach.

Not to mention the investiture interference.

Do we know how much stone it would have to be? Investiture interference isn’t going to matter much, since they aren’t trying to affect the stone itself.

[alder24]

I agree, we know close to nothing about Stonewards powers. The only Stoneward who used his powers was in Dalinar's vision, and made stairs out of stone. That's it. Not much to work with. 

I would say it depends where the fight takes place. If it's in the open field, then yes, a Stoneward can sink Mistborn anchors into the ground, half a meter or so should be enough (Wax see only very faint steel lines through brick/concrete walls). But if the fight is happening in a city, then a Stoneward can't just walk around a city and just level it to the ground to get rid of all anchors (khem khem @Frustration). But with a Shardplate it would be very hard for Mistborn to kill him, like in all other "vs" threads. On 3rd Ideal it would be a fight of attrition, who first runs out of Investiture. Mistborn would need to stay in the air and keep distance, he can't stand on the ground to attack in melee or leech a Stoneward, as he would liquify the ground and trap Mistborn. Mistborn can only shoot coins or try to do a fast fly-bys slashing him with daggers or leeching him for 1 second (which would leech a lot of Stormlight). But those fly-bys can end with a one swing of a Shardblade, they're very risky. Moreover a 3rd Ideal Stoneward (or 2nd) can make himself a stone armor, like Toph did with stone bending, why not. It would be equally as hard to penetrate as a Shardplate. And this is within the realms of possibility, without arguing if he can make his skin or clothes as hard and sturdy as a Shardplate, using rocks would be more in range for them, and be easy.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I agree, we know close to nothing about Stonewards powers. The only Stoneward who used his powers was in Dalinar's vision, and made stairs out of stone. That's it. Not much to work with. 

I would say it depends where the fight takes place. If it's in the open field, then yes, a Stoneward can sink Mistborn anchors into the ground, half a meter or so should be enough (Wax see only very faint steel lines through brick/concrete walls). But if the fight is happening in a city, then a Stoneward can't just walk around a city and just level it to the ground to get rid of all anchors (khem khem @Frustration). But with a Shardplate it would be very hard for Mistborn to kill him, like in all other "vs" threads. On 3rd Ideal it would be a fight of attrition, who first runs out of Investiture. Mistborn would need to stay in the air and keep distance, he can't stand on the ground to attack in melee or leech a Stoneward, as he would liquify the ground and trap Mistborn. Mistborn can only shoot coins or try to do a fast fly-bys slashing him with daggers or leeching him for 1 second (which would leech a lot of Stormlight). But those fly-bys can end with a one swing of a Shardblade, they're very risky. Moreover a 3rd Ideal Stoneward (or 2nd) can make himself a stone armor, like Toph did with stone bending, why not. It would be equally as hard to penetrate as a Shardplate. And this is within the realms of possibility, without arguing if he can make his skin or clothes as hard and sturdy as a Shardplate, using rocks would be more in range for them, and be easy.

This is interesting.  You think it is cheaper stormlight cost wise to literally turn oneself into Ben Grimm (The Thing), or in cosmere terms build stone on oneself and turn yourself into a Kalad's phantom sort of deal than to imbue oneself with stormlight and become Luke Cage.  Perhaps Stonewards will look more like our roseite aetherbound friend Prasanva in his roseite mech suit than half naked gladiators with impenetrable skin and unbreakable bone.  

I would imagine it will all come down to the cost to maintain the effects. It would be silly if healing with stormlight were more cost efficient than maintaining a rock-hard pseudo suit of armor. 

But that alone makes me think that the stoneward is wonderfully built for combat under the 3rd oath against a mistborn. Like all battles it is a matter of who runs out of their resources first.  I think a mistborn is going to have a hard time doing anything to the stoneward period.  Stoneward can force the mistborn to come to it.  Turtles are boring strategies but the stoneward is the ultimate turtle. No amount of steel pushing and iron pulling are going to chip away at the stonewards fortifications. And this is one case where I am not entirely convinced that pewter would be an absolute advantage for the mistborn in melee combat. 

 

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This is interesting.  You think it is cheaper stormlight cost wise to literally turn oneself into Ben Grimm (The Thing), or in cosmere terms build stone on oneself and turn yourself into a Kalad's phantom sort of deal than to imbue oneself with stormlight and become Luke Cage.  Perhaps Stonewards will look more like our roseite aetherbound friend Prasanva in his roseite mech suit than half naked gladiators with impenetrable skin and unbreakable bone.  

I would imagine it will all come down to the cost to maintain the effects. It would be silly if healing with stormlight were more cost efficient than maintaining a rock-hard pseudo suit of armor. 

No, I'm refusing to argue if it's possible to affect your skin with Tension and Cohesion in the same way you can affect rock with it. I'm offering a compromise that everyone can agree will work, and will be as effective as a Shardplate. I'm also avoiding arguing if making your clothes rigid and hard wouldn't make them brittle in the process.

Oh, and doing some research I can now debunk that idea of turning your skin into an unbreakable surface with Stonewards powers. It's impossible to affect a living flesh and even a slightly invested object - which means they can manipulate god metals, gems infused with Stormlight, Awakened objects, or even their own body. Rock armor it is.

Spoiler

Questioner

So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few?

Brandon Sanderson

...Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of The Stormlight Archive the way that I did is because I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. 

Questioner

Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers--I mean, everybody has two--but this power you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of-- like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch for that order.

Questioner

So architects or combat engineers fill that order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, stuff like that, but also, just kind of like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. 

Questioner 2

Can they do that to living flesh?

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's the general, the more Invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things... Even a small amount of extra Investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck Stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, I'm refusing to argue if it's possible to affect your skin with Tension and Cohesion in the same way you can affect rock with it. I'm offering a compromise that everyone can agree will work, and will be as effective as a Shardplate. I'm also avoiding arguing if making your clothes rigid and hard wouldn't make them brittle in the process.

Oh, and doing some research I can now debunk that idea of turning your skin into an unbreakable surface with Stonewards powers. It's impossible to affect a living flesh and even a slightly invested object - which means they can manipulate god metals, gems infused with Stormlight, Awakened objects, or even their own body. Rock armor it is.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few?

Brandon Sanderson

...Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of The Stormlight Archive the way that I did is because I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. 

Questioner

Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers--I mean, everybody has two--but this power you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of-- like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch for that order.

Questioner

So architects or combat engineers fill that order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, stuff like that, but also, just kind of like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. 

Questioner 2

Can they do that to living flesh?

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's the general, the more Invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things... Even a small amount of extra Investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck Stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

That is a thing that I thought for a long time using that same WoB.  I had seen replys discussing it in terms of the nickname "stonesinew".  

I do think that the rock mech suits are more likely the case.  

I was always shocked by how easily some surges can overcome investiture interference while others are locked into having no power over living and uninvested.  (But soulcasting being busted is nothing new)  

[therunner]

42 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh, and doing some research I can now debunk that idea of turning your skin into an unbreakable surface with Stonewards powers. It's impossible to affect a living flesh and even a slightly invested object - which means they can manipulate god metals, gems infused with Stormlight, Awakened objects, or even their own body. Rock armor it is.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So far there hasn't been a lot of the Stonewards in the books. Are they going to come forward in the next few?

Brandon Sanderson

...Yes. One of the reasons I built the structure of The Stormlight Archive the way that I did is because I knew it would be easy to overwhelm with the number of magical abilities, and to let myself get distracted by some of them and not do them justice. So I've been very careful, perhaps more careful than I need to be, and when I show like a Fused using a power, I focus more on the ones you know about and things like this, intentionally to keep the reader's attention on what they know as I expand. 

Questioner

Can they shape stone? In one of the flashbacks they kind of melt it and it becomes sand.

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, my original pitch to myself on Stonewards, one of their main powers--I mean, everybody has two--but this power you're talking about was the ability to grab matter and just kind of-- like what if the whole world were clay to you. Not just stone, not just rock, but if you could just pick something up and stretch it, whatever it was, that was my original pitch for that order.

Questioner

So architects or combat engineers fill that order?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, stuff like that, but also, just kind of like you need to get out of a room? Well, let's mash ourselves a doorway here and step through, or just all kinds of stuff. 

Questioner 2

Can they do that to living flesh?

Brandon Sanderson

No. That's the general, the more Invested something is the more it resists, and Stoneward powers are highly resisted by things... Even a small amount of extra Investiture is gonna prevent them. Like if you stuck Stormlight in [an object], say a Windrunner did, a Stoneward wouldn't be able to change that.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

I won't get anymore into it, but I will point out that typically you can affect things that are keyed to your Identity far easier than those that are not.
E.g. Radiants can use their powers through Shardplate, even when Shardplate otherwise fully blocks Invested Arts.

So it might be that while Stonewards cannot affect living tissue of other beings, they can still affect themselves. This would limit the power of the ability, but also nicely explain 'Stonesinew'.

[Duxredux]

Taln was the indisputed best fighter among the Heralds and we have a decent grasp on what most of their Surges allowed for. Granted that was before Ishar was an unchained Bondsmith unrestricted by Honor, but that still has to count for something. Considering the Fused, Thunderclasts, Regals, etc. that Taln took down in all their varieties, Stonewards (not stoneware, autocorrect) probably have answers for even the more isoteric abilities on Odium's side. We probably won't see the cooler applications of their powers until Taln's book though. I don't buy just yet that Taln had significant trouble against Shanay-im, though he could have.

Cohesion and tension... which doesn't work on living objects or Invested materials but works on materials other than stone. As far as I know, the Honorblades do not have mutable shapes like Radiant Blades, but I suspect Stonewards can do similar stunts with whatever material is on hand. See a flier, grab a bow from the ground and a bunch of arrows and start firing away. Manipulate the tension of the "string" and limbs of the bow to be able to fire even the giant spike that was Taln's Honorblade. For a peek at what a Stoneward might be able to do, look at what Prof from the Reckoners pulls off with Tensors, but perhaps greater application. Melt oncoming weapons on impact so they splash away. It won't be pleasant, but change any projectile that hits you into the consistency of paint rounds. Punch straight through non-Invested armor as if it's wet clay.

If Stonewards can indeed affect their own body then skin like stone is just one enhancement they have. It's not Talenel Stoneskin, it's Stonesinew. Maybe he could use Stormlight to modify the tension of his very muscles, ligaments, and tendons to perform supernatural feats of strength and speed, as in maybe he could keep moving around via Stormlight and Tension even if his nervous system was paralyzed. As for that stone armor, it wouldn't surprise me if Shardplate was based off of Taln. That said, there's a big gap between what any Stoneward can do and what Taln was pulling off, so who knows what the average Stoneward can do.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Duxredux
added thought

[cometaryorbit]

Cohesion definitely can't affect living/Invested stuff, but Tension is less clear. I think that WoB is talking about Cohesion. Especially as that's a 2018 WoB so Brandon was probably thinking about RoW being the book that would show Cohesion both for Venli and the Fused.

So Tension on self might be the Stonesinew effect.

This would also fit because we haven't seen the Tension Fused yet, so they might be a more powerful brand being held back for book 5. They might be Shardplate equivalents.

[Walter The Moral]

On 6/4/2023 at 7:47 AM, alder24 said:

Moreover a 3rd Ideal Stoneward (or 2nd) can make himself a stone armor, like Toph did with stone bending, why not. It would be equally as hard to penetrate as a Shardplate. And this is within the realms of possibility, without arguing if he can make his skin or clothes as hard and sturdy as a Shardplate, using rocks would be more in range for them, and be easy.

I'm confused, why would the stone armour be harder to cut through than normal stone? Shardblades can cut through stone like it's almost nothing, and I though that they couldn't cut through Shardplate because the Plate is invsested, not because of its toughness. Would the stone armour be as invested as Shardplate?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

25 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

I'm confused, why would the stone armour be harder to cut through than normal stone? Shardblades can cut through stone like it's almost nothing, and I though that they couldn't cut through Shardplate because the Plate is invsested, not because of its toughness. Would the stone armour be as invested as Shardplate?

The stone armor would be invested yes.  

[Walter The Moral]

Just now, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

The stone armor would be invested yes.  

How Invested does something need to be to resist a Shardlbade? I'm pretty sure Kaladin sliced through the awakened sheet that Vasher threw at him. And shardblades experience more drag when going through Humans, although that may be because of their Spiritucal Aspect, not how Invested they are.

How Invested is Shardplate? It's made up of a bunch of Spren, so are they more or less Invested than Invested Stone. Vasher can sense invisible Spren with his life sense, so they're probably more invested.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Walter The Moral said:

I'm confused, why would the stone armour be harder to cut through than normal stone? Shardblades can cut through stone like it's almost nothing, and I though that they couldn't cut through Shardplate because the Plate is invsested, not because of its toughness. Would the stone armour be as invested as Shardplate?

It's invested with Stormlight, it would resist a Shardblade. It would be constantly infused with Tension or Cohesion for joints to move and plate to repair itself and change shapes. That's why it would be invested and would resist a Shardblade cut to some degree. Not like a Shardplate, it wouldn't be that invested, but like a strong Half-Shard or something like that (well technically a Shardplate segment can withstand 2 strong hits form a Shardblade, just like a Half-Shard, so each individual segment of a Shardplate is a bit more invested invested than a Half-Shard)

But mainly the topic was about vs Mistborn (or I was talking mostly about Mistborn, I don't remember), and he would have no chance against a stone armor,

48 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

How Invested does something need to be to resist a Shardlbade? I'm pretty sure Kaladin sliced through the awakened sheet that Vasher threw at him. And shardblades experience more drag when going through Humans, although that may be because of their Spiritucal Aspect, not how Invested they are.

A metalmind can stop a Shardblade for a few strikes. A Half-Shard can stop 2 strikes. An Awakened cloth with enough Breaths would stop a Shardblade.

Spoiler

Questioner

How many smacks would it take from a Shardblade to break, say, a metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

A metalmind? Depends on how much it's invested.

Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

How would an Awakened with Breath piece of cloth react if it got hit with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade would probably be able to cut it, but it depends on how much Breath we're talking about.

Questioner

So if it had enough, it might be able to block it

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 7, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Shardblades cut organic and inorganic matter differently. How would they interact with an animated construct like an Awakened straw man? What about a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

So I walk kind of a fine line here. Something that's animated as a construct, like an Awakened straw man, is likely going to block the Shardblade to some extent, as powerful Investiture would. A Lifeless is probably just gonna act like it was a living being.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

 

53 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

How Invested is Shardplate? It's made up of a bunch of Spren, so are they more or less Invested than Invested Stone. Vasher can sense invisible Spren with his life sense, so they're probably more invested.

A Shardplate is almost as invested as a Shardblade.

Spoiler

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

Questioner

Is that gonna be the answer for all of these?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably!

Questioner

How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on...

Questioner

Not in a person.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things.

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

Questioner #2

A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah.

Questioner

So that'd be the same for Shardplate too?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

Questioner

A Half-shard?

Brandon Sanderson

A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate.

Questioner

Nightblood? I imagine that being hard.

Brandon Sanderson

Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade.

Questioner

Far beyond metal inside a person? 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is.

Questioner

If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier.

Questioner

That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

Questioner

A soulstamped piece of metal?

Brandon Sanderson

A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

[The Stormfather]

I think a stoneward can beat things if they have a lot of stormlight, but when venli talked to the stone in rhythm of war it took a whole pouch of spheres.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, stormform wert said:

I think a stoneward can beat things if they have a lot of stormlight, but when venli talked to the stone in rhythm of war it took a whole pouch of spheres.

You do get more efficient as you progress in oaths as well.  Though I don't know what oath Venli is. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

You do get more efficient as you progress in oaths as well.  Though I don't know what oath Venli is. 

She was at 1st when doing that, so she was very inefficient.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

She was at 1st when doing that, so she was very inefficient.

I also am curious about something else. I thought there was something to the idea that the 2nd order in line with access to a power sort of has a better handle over that power.  

Examples would be elsecallers and soul casting and light weavers with illusions.   Perhaps this is all wrong.  Kaladin says the sky is his but technically skybreakers get gravitation 2nd in order after windrunners.  Perhaps that is just that kaladin has so much practice and is further progressed in oaths?  Perhaps windrunners having a better grip on adhesion?  I think there is evidence of Kal reverse lashing long before he learned how to fly.  

If it follows that order then the stoneshaping of a willshaper would be their weaker of the 2 surges and would come perhaps more naturally to the stonewards?  (I don't know why I keep wanting to type earthwarden instead of stoneward today)  

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I also am curious about something else. I thought there was something to the idea that the 2nd order in line with access to a power sort of has a better handle over that power.  

Examples would be elsecallers and soul casting and light weavers with illusions.   Perhaps this is all wrong.  Kaladin says the sky is his but technically skybreakers get gravitation 2nd in order after windrunners.  Perhaps that is just that kaladin has so much practice and is further progressed in oaths?  Perhaps windrunners having a better grip on adhesion?  I think there is evidence of Kal reverse lashing long before he learned how to fly.  

If it follows that order then the stoneshaping of a willshaper would be their weaker of the 2 surges and would come perhaps more naturally to the stonewards?  (I don't know why I keep wanting to type earthwarden instead of stoneward today)  

I heard about this but I'm not convinced this is true. Yes, in some cases it works that way, like Elsecallers are better with Transformation than Lightweavers, but Ligtweavers can use Transformation together with Illumination and create "solid" illusions. So who is better now? I think that's because of interactions between Surges in each order, they all create subtle differences that make every order use their Surges differently. In some cases there isn't much difference, except for Reverse Lashing, Windrunners and Skybreakers use the Surge of Gravitation in the same way. And I can't find a WoB that would confirm this is a general rule. 

Spoiler

Questioner

The Knights each have two Surges, they spill over each. I am wondering, is the crossover [shared] Surge for each Knight [Order] the same? Like gravity for Windrunners and--

Brandon Sanderson

Windrunners are always the same thing.

Questioner

No no no, the way the [Gravitation] Surge is for Skybreakers and--

Brandon Sanderson

The way they act? Yes. To an extent, yes. Each of the combinations make a little bit of a tweak to how things act but when you see Skybreakers affect gravity it'll be more or less the same as the Windrunners.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

 

[Argenti]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:49 AM, alder24 said:

 In some cases there isn't much difference, except for Reverse Lashing, Windrunners and Skybreakers use the Surge of Gravitation in the same way. And I can't find a WoB that would confirm this is a general rule. 

 

I could have sworn that Szeth said Windrunners are better at turning? Maybe I'm just go insane.