New Surge Combos: Now Daily!

[Letryx13]

5 hours ago, Argenti said:

Your Ideals are really good; many of the oaths we've seen add context and force the radiant to change. It's something I very much struggled with.

Thank you, that's kind of what I was aiming for.  

On 5/12/2023 at 1:26 PM, Voidwatcher said:

I assume we are allowed to make up Spren in order to fit certain categories? If so, here's my attempt:

Knight Radiant Order: Worldmakers
Surges: Adhesion + Division
Surge Combo: Restructuring! This allows them to completely demolish/destroy an object/surface/area and perfectly repair it afterward. It takes more Stormlight for larger areas and more stormlight depending on how long it's been since it was originally demolished. (EDITED)
True Spren: Changespren
Plate Spren: Balancespren
Resonance: Increased willpower and confidence (akin to Lightweavers memory ability)
Ideal Theme: Changing the world for the better and eventually learning that some things should not be changed.

(Added Bonus)

First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD

Second Ideal: "I will change the (weak/good/helpful/unconfident) for the better." (EDITED)

Third Ideal: "I will change the (evil/bad/misguided/misinformed), to become something great."

Fourth Ideal: "I accept there are some (things, people, places, etc) that cannot be changed."

Fifth Ideal: "I am Balance." (Skybreaker inspired heavily, it's the only fifth Ideal we have)

Wasn't going to do the Ideals at first, but here's my attempt at it. Surprised that it took such a short time to make this...

I think we had some similar ideas, but I think you need the surge of Transformation.  

[Voidmaker]

3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I think we had some similar ideas, but I think you need the surge of Transformation.  

Fair point, but the difference here is that they use Adhesion and Division to manually reshape others, because they aren't made to entirely Transform people/societies/places/whatever into something completely different, but to manually help remove negative influence (removal = division) and pull together positive influence for them (pull together = adhesion). They don't change people or objects entirely, like how you could change stone into metal with Transformation, but they could break down the stone and extract the metal fragments/ore inside them, recombining the metal into one piece afterwards alongside the stone- not removing what was originally there, but changing it nonetheless.

They also have a focus on balance, which is very not Transformation-ish. An order with Transformation being told not to Transform doesn't really make sense- but it does make sense with this unique capability. Considering Transformation's other uses, it might be better for something else.

I'll admit it seems very Transformation-ish, but that's more so just me attempting to be vague. It's really shown in the Surge Combo I came up with, they can break things down and build them up again, but they cannot change what was there from existence. It's why they have to learn some people can't be aided- they don't have Transformation. The reason I chose this sort of 'drive' for the Order is because they're not supposed to be able to FORCE change with Transformation, they're meant to help it along using their ability of breaking down and building up. It also allows some connection to be established with Elsecallers and Lightweavers and every other order that you guys make that has Transformation and allow for important plot development for characters as they have to learn WHY they don't have Transformation. Overall, I overthought things and made them complex and vague simultaneously, creating confusion.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Voidwatcher

[Spearguy]

Order: Tyrantshatterers 

Surges: Division + Tension

Radiant spren: Anarchyspren

Platespren: Angerspren

Theme: tear down oppressors 

Resonance: no idea but the powers could be used together to basically create shrapnel explosions 

First Ideal:  LBD/SBW/JBD

Second Ideal: I will bring the tyrant down 

Third Ideal: I will let none take their place

Fourth Ideal: I will show restraint 

Fifth Ideal: I will not hold my power over others

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Spearguy

[Letryx13]

On 5/14/2023 at 1:32 AM, Voidwatcher said:

Fair point, but the difference here is that they use Adhesion and Division to manually reshape others, because they aren't made to entirely Transform people/societies/places/whatever into something completely different, but to manually help remove negative influence (removal = division) and pull together positive influence for them (pull together = adhesion). They don't change people or objects entirely, like how you could change stone into metal with Transformation, but they could break down the stone and extract the metal fragments/ore inside them, recombining the metal into one piece afterwards alongside the stone- not removing what was originally there, but changing it nonetheless.

They also have a focus on balance, which is very not Transformation-ish. An order with Transformation being told not to Transform doesn't really make sense- but it does make sense with this unique capability. Considering Transformation's other uses, it might be better for something else.

I'll admit it seems very Transformation-ish, but that's more so just me attempting to be vague. It's really shown in the Surge Combo I came up with, they can break things down and build them up again, but they cannot change what was there from existence. It's why they have to learn some people can't be aided- they don't have Transformation. The reason I chose this sort of 'drive' for the Order is because they're not supposed to be able to FORCE change with Transformation, they're meant to help it along using their ability of breaking down and building up. It also allows some connection to be established with Elsecallers and Lightweavers and every other order that you guys make that has Transformation and allow for important plot development for characters as they have to learn WHY they don't have Transformation. Overall, I overthought things and made them complex and vague simultaneously, creating confusion.

I was mostly focusing on how three of your ideals focus on changing things, but that's reasonable.  I was also thinking of how Pattern told Shallan she had changed Vatha and the others right after she met them in the Frostlands.

[Voidmaker]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I was mostly focusing on how three of your ideals focus on changing things, but that's reasonable. 

2 are aimed towards change, but again they're vague, so here is like some 'test' ideals: "I will aid the evolution of all great men." or something like "I will ensure the greatness of the weakest people.", which fit my general motif of the Second Ideal: not outright 'change', but improvement/betterment. The third Ideal then is something like this: "I will save the wretched from their dark path." or maybe "I will aid even the enemy in pursuit of a better future." This one is more change-oriented, which is why I really take it back for the fourth: "I accept that the weak do not need to pursue strength." or something like: "I accept that not all danger can be swayed." This is where we take it back far on the 'change' motif. Finally, the Fifth Ideal (I don't know if there is variation, so I'll just assume 'I am Balance' is the only possible Oath or something) where the Radiant will fully be able to judge when and when not to change, something that Transformation doesn't possess.

In summary:
"I will change the (weak/good/helpful/unconfident) for the better." means "I improve good people, not completely change them." (Division)
"I will change the (evil/bad/misguided/misinformed), to become something great." means "I improve bad people, not completely change them." (Division)
"I accept there are some (things, people, places, etc) that cannot be changed." means "My improvement is not always helpful, so I can't always seek to improve others." (Adhesion)
"I am Balance." means "I won't alter what does not need to be altered, but I will alter what does need to be altered."

Sorry for the longer posts, I just really like talking about this for some reason 

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I was also thinking of how Pattern told Shallan she had changed Vatha and the others right after she met them in the Frostlands.

Good point, but the main difference is that 'Spiritual Transformation' wasn't really an Intent here, it just 'happened'. She didn't even know she could. I want this order to have balance at the forefront since that is what their Surges are made for. I might end up reworking them, though, because you are right- I completely missed the original Transformation comparison. I'll see if anything pops into my head and I'll republish the Adhesion-Divison combo if I get ideas for it, but I think it's barely justified enough to exist as it is. Thanks for telling me, I would've missed it.

Also, @Argenti, should we make a list of what combos we've already made? Maybe include it in the original post (just throw it in an edit afterward)? I don't want to restrict creativity but I also feel like repeats will be confusing, and I want to see how long it takes to get a full list. Might do something similar to the Twinborn Combo post (go check that out if you haven't, anybody reading this!) where I occasionally post a combo that comes to mind, if you're okay with that or don't plan on doing it yourself.
 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Voidwatcher
argenti mention bit

[Argenti]

3 hours ago, Voidwatcher said:

Also, @Argenti, should we make a list of what combos we've already made? Maybe include it in the original post (just throw it in an edit afterward)? I don't want to restrict creativity but I also feel like repeats will be confusing, and I want to see how long it takes to get a full list. Might do something similar to the Twinborn Combo post (go check that out if you haven't, anybody reading this!) where I occasionally post a combo that comes to mind, if you're okay with that or don't plan on doing it yourself.

all done!

[Voidmaker]

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

all done!

Nice table! Thanks for it. It also just gave me a cool idea: What if we did special combos for 'Surge Overlap' as well? If the lore to these creations is true and Ishar is truly binding together two random surges, then we should totally try to make things like Adhesion x Adhesion and Gravitation x Gravitation and onwards. Should we attempt to make a full 'Order' out of the Double-Surge, or should we just theorize on the cool abilities of Surgestacking? And also, what if we start combining THREE surges at once? That'd be very difficult to chart, but I feel like we should try to test the limits here a bit. What do you think we should do with these 'technicalities'?

[Argenti]

42 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Nice table! Thanks for it. It also just gave me a cool idea: What if we did special combos for 'Surge Overlap' as well? If the lore to these creations is true and Ishar is truly binding together two random surges, then we should totally try to make things like Adhesion x Adhesion and Gravitation x Gravitation and onwards. Should we attempt to make a full 'Order' out of the Double-Surge, or should we just theorize on the cool abilities of Surgestacking? And also, what if we start combining THREE surges at once? That'd be very difficult to chart, but I feel like we should try to test the limits here a bit. What do you think we should do with these 'technicalities'?

The double surges is cool, I'll probably do that, but three surges would require a 3-dimensional chart, or perhaps ten separate 2D charts, if I make ten graphs thats not going on the shard but google spreadsheets instead

[Argenti]

Welp, I'm going to do them once daily because I'm bored. (Credit to @Voidwatcher and @Koloss17 for coming up with the ideas). Just like the twinborn thread, I'll roll dice to pick the surges and make the oaths what feels right, you are welcome to make up to three surges, but I won't. If I roll any of the pre-existing orders I'll skip it and try again, feel free to post duplicates, the more orders, the better. Here's my first one, and a blank format:
(Blank format)

Spoiler

Knight Radiant Order: 
Surges: 
Surge Combo: 
True Spren: 
Plate Spren: 
Resonance: 
Ideal Theme: 

Oaths:
First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD

Second Ideal: 

Third Ideal: 

Fourth Ideal: 

Fifth Ideal: 

 (I immediately rolled Lightweaver, time for a re-roll)

Quote

Knight Radiant Order: Sunbreakers 
Surges:  Division+Illumination
Surge Combo: Allows orbs of light to be created that burn things they come in contact with.
True Spren: Sunspren
Plate Spren: Lightspren
Resonance: Improved nightvision
Ideal Theme: Unveiling secrets and those who control them (Might be too similar to Truthwatchers but oh well)

Oaths:
First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD

Second Ideal: I will unveil secrets no matter the cost.

Third Ideal: "Personal Quest to reveal a secret important to you"

Fourth Ideal: I will strike down those that seek to conceal the truth.

Fifth Ideal: Some secrets (those that cause harm, death Ex) should not see the light.
 

Thoughts? 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Argenti

[Voidmaker]

On 5/15/2023 at 2:29 PM, Argenti said:

The double surges is cool, I'll probably do that, but three surges would require a 3-dimensional chart, or perhaps ten separate 2D charts, if I make ten graphs thats not going on the shard but google spreadsheets instead

Makes sense. I didn't mean you had to make a table out of those, I just wanted to know if there's a 'greenlight' for the wilder combinations. However, since you gave the greenlight for Surgestacking...

Illumination x Illumination! The Selfshapers! (If you have better naming suggestions, I'll take them)
This is a tricky Surge in it's purpose alone- illusions, lights, sounds, all can be fabricated with it. However, I'd expect more 'vivid' illusions- to the point where they wouldn't feel realistic since they lost the Transformation aspect that original Lightweavers have- but with double the Illumination, you'd get Heightening-like effects from it.

This order is based around the individual because the illusions get stronger as you ascend Oaths and you need a realistic anchor to prevent yourself from being lost in the dreamlike illusions. They take a note out of the Lightweavers book but are more associated with accepting the Truths of the world or of other people, as that grants them an attachment to reality. So, chart:

Knight Radiant Order: Selfshapers
Surges: Illumination and Illumination (Surgestacking)
Surge Combo: Dreamlike Illusions that cannot have a physical form, but if controlled right, can completely trick one's Cognitive state into fully believing the illusion was always like that- even for the most paranoid and suspicious. They break upon outside contact, however.
Savant Effect: They are the weakest to their own illusions. As they ascend Ideals, the illusions get stronger but they become more anchored, so it balances out- but they will always be tricked by their own illusions if exposed for too long. Half an hour is the limit before they believe the illusions fully- and if this illusion is a disguise, it takes a loss of Stormlight to make them snap out of it as they embody the disguise completely.
Truespren: Creationspren (Lightweaver Cousinspren)
Platespren: Fearspren
Theme: Helping people face harsh reality.

First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD

Second Ideal: I will make the unwilling face the world. (Something along those lines

Third Ideal: I will not force the world to be different from what it is. (Something along those lines)

Fourth Ideal: I accept that there will be people who are not ready to accept reality. (Something along those lines)

Fifth Ideal: I am Unreal.

Spent a lot of time on this, hard to think of at first. Felt like turning it into a full order, so I did.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Voidwatcher

[Rhythm of Discord]

This is a really cool concept and I like your idea of the sunbreaker. I actually thought that your 5th ideal was good but personally I thought the 2nd ideal was the weakest one. I would recommend something about the Radient themselves not keeping secrets or if you want to stick with the theme of unveiling secrets something like "no matter the cost" instead of everywhere they go could work. Though it does conflict slightly with the fifth it could show character development as they go through the ideals.

[Voidmaker]

39 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Thoughts? My fifth ideal needs some work

Pretty good, make sure to keep a strong emphasis on active truth-hunting in order to differentiate it from Truthwatchers, but besides that, it's great as it is. Might want to make the Fifth more concise, but I don't know how to do that with your Fifth Ideal.

[cometaryorbit]

 Pathseekers

The Order of Pathseekers is fundamentally about opening possibilities. They can be craftspeople; explorers and sailors; merchants and traders; artists or writers -- but regardless, Seekers see their work as a way of giving people more options, whether that's by making better tools, discovering new islands, bringing goods from distant lands, or introducing or reintroducing ideas to society.

Pathseekers tend to be people uncomfortable with leadership, whether they are shy and retiring by nature (as some of the more crafts-oriented or artistic members of the Order are) or simply find it incompatible with their real goals.

Most Pathseekers are people who live, or once lived, in watery areas or rainy climates (such as the seacoast, the Reshi Isles, or the Purelake) but this is not fundamental to the Order - simply a consequence of where their spren are found.

Surges : Abrasion + Tension

The Surge of Abrasion allows Pathseekers to "slick" themselves, others, or objects - reducing friction to zero. This Surge, used alone, is essentially identical to its use by other Orders.

Pathseekers' use of the Surge of Tension is more unique, being focused around fluids (as is appropriate for their spren). They can radically increase surface tension, making anything float on water without being wetted. They can also control capillary action - with sufficient Stormlight, this can be taken to the point of making water flow up sheer cliffs. They can prevent boiling. At extreme levels of knowledge and skill, they can even impose liquid-like behavior on gases.

It is technically possible for them to use Tension to harden flexible solid materials, but this use of the Surge is very difficult for them - requiring both great experience and unusual quantities of Stormlight.

By combining their Surges, they can propel objects (including themselves, or an entire ship, with enough Light) through water with great speed - reducing friction ahead and increasing tension behind.

True Spren: Deepspren. Sapient cousins of rainspren the way honorspren are to windspren, deepspren appear as humanoid figures made of water when seen in the Cognitive Realm. They appear in the Physical as a puddle or small stream of water, often clinging impossibly to tilted or vertical surfaces, and moving by flowing.

Deepspren consider themselves the true soul of water, ever flowing and changing, reshaping itself to fill what it finds, yet always reborn from clouds and rain the same in essence. Symbolically they represent flexibility and the ability to adapt while maintaining one's intent despite discouragement.

Platespren: Rainspren

Ideals: The pattern of Pathseeker Ideals falls in between that of the Lightweavers and the other Orders. They are more standardized than Lightweaver Truths, but less so than other Orders.

The first three Ideals follow a common pattern, though with significant flexibility, while the last two are entirely personal in nature.

First Ideal (same)

Second Ideal: I will seek and share. This Ideal focuses the Radiant not only on seeking improvement or finding something new, but doing it for the benefit of others.

[It is worth noting that those who seek more abstract truth tend to become Truthwatchers instead, though there are exceptions.]

Third Ideal: I will offer what I find, even when I doubt its worth. This Ideal pushes the Radiant to overcome the self-doubt that often hinders Pathseekers from doing the good they can do.

Fourth and Fifth: entirely personal to the individual Radiant and spren pair. Often tied to dealing with some obstacles of personality or personal history that prevent the fullest attainment of the previous Ideals.

Edited May 29, 2023 by cometaryorbit
improved name

[Voidmaker]

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

 Seekers

Wow!!! Very well done. You put a lot more thought into this than most. Makes a lot of sense, and I like how you added the trivial details (Spren design, typical jobs, typical living spaces, etc) to make it seem more 'in-depth', pun intended 

Great work with that imagination, though! You're very good at this. 

My only minor adjustment would be to see if you can find a two word title instead of a one word title, but it's a bit of a nitpick so I don't mind in the end.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Voidwatcher
addon

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

3 hours ago, Argenti said:

Welp, I'm going to do them once daily because I'm bored. (Credit to @Voidwatcher and @Koloss17 for coming up with the ideas). Just like the twinborn thread, I'll roll dice to pick the surges and make the oaths what feels right, you are welcome to make up to three surges, but I won't. If I roll any of the pre-existing orders I'll skip it and try again, feel free to post duplicates, the more orders, the better. Here's my first one, and a blank format:
(Blank format)

  Reveal hidden contents

Knight Radiant Order: 
Surges: 
Surge Combo: 
True Spren: 
Plate Spren: 
Resonance: 
Ideal Theme: 

Oaths:
First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD

Second Ideal: 

Third Ideal: 

Fourth Ideal: 

Fifth Ideal: 

 (I immediately rolled Lightweaver, time for a re-roll)

Thoughts? 

Idea for Sunbreaker Resonance: Highly Destructive Lasers??

[Voidmaker]

1 minute ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Idea for Sunbreaker Resonance: Highly Destructive Lasers??

the sun is a deadly- Lightweaving laser, but better. Nice! Might be a bit too destructive, though 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

I love the way this thread is becoming a SA version of the Twinborn thread, very fun!

[Voidmaker]

21 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I love the way this thread is becoming a SA version of the Twinborn thread, very fun!

We only have 85~ combinations to run through, compared to their 240~ left. We're having fun though.

[cometaryorbit]

2 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

We only have 85~ combinations to run through, compared to their 240~ left. We're having fun though.

Until we start with 3-Surge combinations!

38 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Wow!!! Very well done. You put a lot more thought into this than most. Makes a lot of sense, and I like how you added the trivial details (Spren design, typical jobs, typical living spaces, etc) to make it seem more 'in-depth', pun intended 

Great work with that imagination, though! You're very good at this. 

My only minor adjustment would be to see if you can find a two word title instead of a one word title, but it's a bit of a nitpick so I don't mind in the end.

Thank you!

Yeah ... I considered calling them Farseekers but that felt like it suggested they should have Transportation.

A better name suggestion would be great.

[alder24]

23 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah ... I considered calling them Farseekers but that felt like it suggested they should have Transportation.

A better name suggestion would be great.

Pathfinders?

[Voidmaker]

34 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah ... I considered calling them Farseekers but that felt like it suggested they should have Transportation.

A better name suggestion would be great.

You could call them something like Sailseekers, since they're primarily ocean-travel based. Or maybe Deepseekers? Doesn't work as well, though.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Voidwatcher

[Argenti]

 

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

 Seekers

The Order of Seekers is fundamentally about opening possibilities. They can be craftspeople; explorers and sailors; merchants and traders; artists or writers -- but regardless, Seekers see their work as a way of giving people more options, whether that's by making better tools, discovering new islands, bringing goods from distant lands, or introducing or reintroducing ideas to society.

 Seekers tend to be people uncomfortable with leadership, whether they are shy and retiring by nature (as some of the more crafts-oriented or artistic members of the Order are) or simply find it incompatible with their real goals.

Most Seekers are people who live, or once lived, in watery areas or rainy climates (such as the seacoast, the Reshi Isles, or the Purelake) but this is not fundamental to the Order - simply a consequence of where their spren are found.

Surges : Abrasion + Tension

The Surge of Abrasion allows Seekers to "slick" themselves, others, or objects - reducing friction to zero. This Surge, used alone, is essentially identical to its use by other Orders.

Seekers' use of the Surge of Tension is more unique, being focused around fluids (as is appropriate for their spren). They can radically increase surface tension, making anything float on water without being wetted. They can also control capillary action - with sufficient Stormlight, this can be taken to the point of making water flow up sheer cliffs. They can prevent boiling. At extreme levels of knowledge and skill, they can even impose liquid-like behavior on gases.

It is technically possible for Seekers to use Tension to harden flexible solid materials, but this use of the Surge is very difficult for them - requiring both great experience and unusual quantities of Stormlight.

By combining their Surges, they can propel objects (including themselves, or an entire ship, with enough Light) through water with great speed - reducing friction ahead and increasing tension behind.

True Spren: Deepspren. Sapient cousins of rainspren the way honorspren are to windspren, deepspren appear as humanoid figures made of water when seen in the Cognitive Realm. They appear in the Physical as a puddle or small stream of water, often clinging impossibly to tilted or vertical surfaces, and moving by flowing.

Deepspren consider themselves the true soul of water, ever flowing and changing, reshaping itself to fill what it finds, yet always reborn from clouds and rain the same in essence. Symbolically they represent flexibility and the ability to adapt while maintaining one's intent despite discouragement.

Platespren: Rainspren

Ideals: The pattern of Seeker Ideals falls in between that of the Lightweavers and the other Orders. They are more standardized than Lightweaver Truths, but less so than other Orders.

The first three Ideals follow a common pattern, though with significant flexibility, while the last two are entirely personal in nature.

First Ideal (same)

Second Ideal: I will seek and share. This Ideal focuses the Radiant not only on seeking improvement or finding something new, but doing it for the benefit of others.

[It is worth noting that those who seek more abstract truth tend to become Truthwatchers instead, though there are exceptions.]

Third Ideal: I will offer what I find, even when I doubt its worth. This Ideal pushes the Radiant to overcome the self-doubt that often hinders Seekers from doing the good they can do.

Fourth and Fifth: entirely personal to the individual Radiant and spren pair. Often tied to dealing with some obstacles of personality or personal history that prevent the fullest attainment of the previous Ideals.

Oh wow! You're making me look bad with this much stuff! Ngl this is pretty much what I think @Spearguy was going for, just a lot more developed and he mixed up tension and cohesion, I'll put them next to each other in the graph.

 

3 hours ago, Voidwatcher said:

We only have 85~ combinations to run through, compared to their 240~ left. We're having fun though.

Also, I made that 11-graph system; look at the first post

[Voidmaker]

13 hours ago, Argenti said:

Also, I made that 11-graph system; look at the first post

Yes, I saw it earlier. I forgot that the chart mirrors as well, so it's significantly less than what I counted.

[Argenti]

43 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Yes, I saw it earlier. I forgot that the chart mirrors as well, so it's significantly less than what I counted.

with three surges we have around 900 more combos to go

 

[Voidmaker]

21 minutes ago, Argenti said:

with three surges we have around 900 more combos to go

I thought those weren't going to be counted. Then I guess we have some luck and plenty to do. I'll try and do the first Triplesurge today to test the Radiant Formula on it.