Are the listeners/singers mammalian?

[Chadolin Kholin]

Something that I’ve been curious about since the start of the series is the physiology of the listeners. They’re described as having carapace, and when Kaladin removes the carapace from one of them in the chasms, he notes how unlike their anatomy is to that of humans. But he doesn’t really go into detail as to why it’s different. We know that they have breasts in mate form, which leads me to believe they could be mammals, but it’s also noted that all of the very few mammals that live on Roshar came over with the original humans from Ashyn. However, the fact that humans and listeners could breed (the horneaters and herdazians both have listener ancestry), seems to indicate that they could be mammals. Is their skin more lizard like, or soft and hairy? The males are mentioned to have beards, but the listeners describe their hair as “hair strands”, so is it the same physiologically as human hair? Ar e there any WOB or in-book quotes that would clarify this?

[SpiritSemicircle]

They could be mammalian, and since they can reproduce with humans, they are most likely mammals. There are some mammals that have a form of carapace, the most notable being the pangolin, armadillo, or even crocodiles. Though maybe they're some sort of hybrid?

[Treamayne]

9 hours ago, Chadolin Kholin said:

Something that I’ve been curious about since the start of the series is the physiology of the listeners. They’re described as having carapace, and when Kaladin removes the carapace from one of them in the chasms, he notes how unlike their anatomy is to that of humans. But he doesn’t really go into detail as to why it’s different. We know that they have breasts in mate form, which leads me to believe they could be mammals, but it’s also noted that all of the very few mammals that live on Roshar came over with the original humans from Ashyn. However, the fact that humans and listeners could breed (the horneaters and herdazians both have listener ancestry), seems to indicate that they could be mammals. Is their skin more lizard like, or soft and hairy? The males are mentioned to have beards, but the listeners describe their hair as “hair strands”, so is it the same physiologically as human hair? Ar e there any WOB or in-book quotes that would clarify this?

Skin and Carapace aren't really deciding factors. From Wikipedia:

Spoiler

A mammal (from Latin mamma 'breast') is a vertebrate animal of the class Mammalia. Mammals are characterized by the presence of milk-producing mammary glands for feeding their young, a neocortex region of the brain, fur or hair, and three middle ear bones. These characteristics distinguish them from reptiles and birds, from which their ancestors diverged in the Carboniferous Period over 300 million years ago. Around 6,400 extant species of mammals have been described and divided into 29 orders.

• Animal - Check
• Vertebrate - Check
• presence of milk-producing mammary glands for feeding their young - Check
• a neocortex region of the brain - Presumably, based on neocortex function:
  • higher-order brain functions such as sensory perception, cognition, generation of motor commands, spatial reasoning and language.
  • - Check
• fur or hair - Check (~ish. In, at least some forms, this is minimal or vestigal)
• three middle ear bones
  • This is the unknown and I would not be surprised to find they have an even more developed auditory structure or that the classification of Mammalia for the Cosmere changes this to just "ossicle based auditory structures"

Spoiler

As sound waves vibrate the tympanic membrane (eardrum), it in turn moves the nearest ossicle, the malleus, to which it is attached. The malleus then transmits the vibrations, via the incus, to the stapes, and so ultimately to the membrane of the fenestra ovalis (oval window), the opening to the vestibule of the inner ear.

Sound traveling through the air is mostly reflected when it comes into contact with a liquid medium; only about 1/30 of the sound energy moving through the air would be transferred into the liquid. This is observed from the abrupt cessation of sound that occurs when the head is submerged underwater. This is because the relative incompressibility of a liquid presents resistance to the force of the sound waves traveling through the air. The ossicles give the eardrum a mechanical advantage via lever action and a reduction in the area of force distribution; the resulting vibrations are stronger but don't move as far. This allows more efficient coupling than if the sound waves were transmitted directly from the outer ear to the oval window. This reduction in the area of force application allows a large enough increase in pressure to transfer most of the sound energy into the liquid. The increased pressure will compress the fluid found in the cochlea and transmit the stimulus. Thus, the lever action of the ossicles changes the vibrations so as to improve the transfer and reception of sound, and is a form of impedance matching.

However, the extent of the movements of the ossicles is controlled (and constricted) by two muscles attached to them (the tensor tympani and the stapedius). It is believed that these muscles can contract to dampen the vibration of the ossicles, in order to protect the inner ear from excessively loud noise (theory 1) and that they give better frequency resolution at higher frequencies by reducing the transmission of low frequencies (theory 2). These muscles are more highly developed in bats and serve to block outgoing cries of the bats during echolocation (SONAR).

So, I conclude we can reasonably call them mammals - or an expanded Cosmere Mammalian equivalent.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarity

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Chadolin Kholin said:

Something that I’ve been curious about since the start of the series is the physiology of the listeners. They’re described as having carapace, and when Kaladin removes the carapace from one of them in the chasms, he notes how unlike their anatomy is to that of humans. But he doesn’t really go into detail as to why it’s different. We know that they have breasts in mate form, which leads me to believe they could be mammals, but it’s also noted that all of the very few mammals that live on Roshar came over with the original humans from Ashyn. However, the fact that humans and listeners could breed (the horneaters and herdazians both have listener ancestry), seems to indicate that they could be mammals. Is their skin more lizard like, or soft and hairy? The males are mentioned to have beards, but the listeners describe their hair as “hair strands”, so is it the same physiologically as human hair? Ar e there any WOB or in-book quotes that would clarify this?

There are also compared to mammals by Brandon, I would say they are fitting mammals the most:

Spoiler

VeryNiceName16

Why does mateform have breasts? It's not the form they use to raise kids, so is this some kind of human influence on the lifespren?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that for now. It is something I have actually thought about and I might get into, I might not.

...

There are plenty of mammals who do not have breasts as a... Enlarged breasts is a secondary sexual characteristic, how about that? In humans it is generally considered by biologists to be a form of displaying readiness and desire to mate. So, not necessarily there for the babies, if that makes sense. And I think it is a similar thing with mateform.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

There are also mammals with carapace, notably Armadillo (give them some love).

[Letryx13]

They're probably something else entirely, some kind of animal kingdom or family we don't naturally have.  Close to mammals, but not quite.  In another post I mentioned how gem hearts feel like a clam's pearl to me, which makes them feel like a different type of animal altogether. But still, close to mammals.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are also mammals with carapace, notably Armadillo (give them some love).

I love armadillos.  I've always like animals with built in armor.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Skin and Carapace aren't really deciding factors. From Wikipedia:

  Reveal hidden contents

A mammal (from Latin mamma 'breast') is a vertebrate animal of the class Mammalia. Mammals are characterized by the presence of milk-producing mammary glands for feeding their young, a neocortex region of the brain, fur or hair, and three middle ear bones. These characteristics distinguish them from reptiles and birds, from which their ancestors diverged in the Carboniferous Period over 300 million years ago. Around 6,400 extant species of mammals have been described and divided into 29 orders.

• Animal - Check
• Vertebrate - Check
• presence of milk-producing mammary glands for feeding their young - Check
• a neocortex region of the brain - Presumably, based on neocortex function:
  • higher-order brain functions such as sensory perception, cognition, generation of motor commands, spatial reasoning and language.
  • - Check
• fur or hair - Check (~ish. In, at least some forms, this is minimal or vestigal)
• three middle ear bones
  • This is the unknown and I would not be surprised to find they have an even more developed auditory structure or that the classification of Mammalia for the Cosmere changes this to just "ossicle based auditory structures"

  Hide contents

As sound waves vibrate the tympanic membrane (eardrum), it in turn moves the nearest ossicle, the malleus, to which it is attached. The malleus then transmits the vibrations, via the incus, to the stapes, and so ultimately to the membrane of the fenestra ovalis (oval window), the opening to the vestibule of the inner ear.

Sound traveling through the air is mostly reflected when it comes into contact with a liquid medium; only about 1/30 of the sound energy moving through the air would be transferred into the liquid. This is observed from the abrupt cessation of sound that occurs when the head is submerged underwater. This is because the relative incompressibility of a liquid presents resistance to the force of the sound waves traveling through the air. The ossicles give the eardrum a mechanical advantage via lever action and a reduction in the area of force distribution; the resulting vibrations are stronger but don't move as far. This allows more efficient coupling than if the sound waves were transmitted directly from the outer ear to the oval window. This reduction in the area of force application allows a large enough increase in pressure to transfer most of the sound energy into the liquid. The increased pressure will compress the fluid found in the cochlea and transmit the stimulus. Thus, the lever action of the ossicles changes the vibrations so as to improve the transfer and reception of sound, and is a form of impedance matching.

However, the extent of the movements of the ossicles is controlled (and constricted) by two muscles attached to them (the tensor tympani and the stapedius). It is believed that these muscles can contract to dampen the vibration of the ossicles, in order to protect the inner ear from excessively loud noise (theory 1) and that they give better frequency resolution at higher frequencies by reducing the transmission of low frequencies (theory 2). These muscles are more highly developed in bats and serve to block outgoing cries of the bats during echolocation (SONAR).

So, I conclude we can reasonably call them mammals - or an expanded Cosmere Mammalian equivalent.

 

Excellent!  This is the answer, I believe.  And in scientific terms, I think the fact that they can successfully interbreed with viable, fertile offspring pushes them all the way into a shared Species, making Humans and Singers Subspecies.

[Chadolin Kholin]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Skin and Carapace aren't really deciding factors.

So, I conclude we can reasonably call them mammals - or an expanded Cosmere Mammalian equivalent.

Thanks! This makes a lot of sense. I guess that then begs the question, why are there no other mammals native to Roshar?

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Chadolin Kholin said:

Thanks! This makes a lot of sense. I guess that then begs the question, why are there no other mammals native to Roshar?

Umm, I feel like the spoiler tag for this thread might be wrong, if you are asking this question.  We should probably stop talking....

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, Chadolin Kholin said:

Thanks! This makes a lot of sense. I guess that then begs the question: (Oathbringer Spoilers)

Spoiler

 why are there no other mammals native to Roshar?

 

We don't know that none of the other fauna would be considered mammals. For example, in the WoR Flashback scenes with Balat's axehound pups, it's implied that axehounds may be mammals from the way they raise their young. It may just be that mammals had a divergent evolution leading to a carapace and gemhearts and many species like the Whitespine may, technically, be mammalian (by the scientific sense).

7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Umm, I feel like the spoiler tag for this thread might be wrong, if you are asking this question.  We should probably stop talking....

Due to events in Oathbringer? Spoiler tags might be desireable.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Treamayne

[Chadolin Kholin]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Umm, I feel like the spoiler tag for this thread might be wrong, if you are asking this question.  We should probably stop talking....

Sorry, I’m new to this site, I don’t really understand how the spoiler tags function. Is there a way for me to change the spoiler tag to all cosmere?

[Treamayne]

Should have said earlier - Welcome to the Forums.

1 minute ago, Chadolin Kholin said:

Sorry, I’m new to this site, I don’t really understand how the spoiler tags function. Is there a way for me to change the spoiler tag to all cosmere?

This may help:

Spoiler

At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) and Edit and Options tools. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow.

• The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post
• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you click that for each post
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote" button that pops up.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
  • Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required.
• Next to Edit you will also find an "options" dropbox, you can use this to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting
• At the top of a post you will find "Report Post"
  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.

Hope that helps.

So, just edit your post to add the spoiler tag on your question (as  you see done in my quote above) by highlighting that text and clicking the "spoiler" (eye) icon to put that question in a spoiler tag. Add a text above it saying "spoilers for Oathbringer."

[Quantus]

28 minutes ago, Chadolin Kholin said:

Sorry, I’m new to this site, I don’t really understand how the spoiler tags function. Is there a way for me to change the spoiler tag to all cosmere?

My concern was more about us spoiling the big reveal before you'd read OB.  Just so I dont accidentally ruin anything for you, how far have you read?

[Chadolin Kholin]

Just now, Quantus said:

My concern was more about us spoiling the big reveal before you'd read OB.  Just so I dont accidentally ruin anything for you, how far have you read?

I’ve read everything in the cosmere except Tress I’m pretty sure. So I’m fully caught up with Stormlight, except for the Book 5 excerpts. 

[Quantus]

Just now, Chadolin Kholin said:

I’ve read everything in the cosmere except Tress I’m pretty sure. So I’m fully caught up with Stormlight, except for the Book 5 excerpts. 

Oh, ok cool.  Ive made mistakes before so I try really hard not to spoil things for anyone.  

36 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

We don't know that none of the other fauna would be considered mammals. For example, in the WoR Flashback scenes with Balat's axehound pups, it's implied that axehounds may be mammals from the way they raise their young. It may just be that mammals had a divergent evolution leading to a carapace and gemhearts and many species like the Whitespine may, technically, be mammalian (by the scientific sense).

Due to events in Oathbringer? Spoiler tags might be desireable.

So far everything that has been actual mammals was imported with the Humans, and set up in their own bottle ecosystem.  Axehound fit the ecological niche of dogs but that wouldnt make them mammals, caring for Young is far from exclusive to Mammals (even some reptiles do it).  

As far as Why there doesnt seem to be any native Mammals to Roshar, based on this WOB and a lot of Shallan's Art, I think it's because Roshar has Fain Life.  Six-limbs is supposed to be the hallmark:

 

Quote

 

LewsTherinTelescope

In The Lost Metal, we find that Sho Del have four arms, making six appendages. In the [sample] chapters for The Liar of Partinel, we find that a fain deer has six legs. Is this pattern important?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

Further, how relevant to this is [it] that if you count four legs plus two wings, dragons have six limbs?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, that is the exact correlation that I would like you to draw! Dragons are fain, if you're wondering. If that's what the question is, yes, dragons are fain.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

 

Axehound By Shallan:

[Treamayne]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Axehound By Shallan:

Spoiler

 

Good points.

Quote

So far everything that has been actual mammals was imported with the Humans, and set up in their own bottle ecosystem.  Axehound fit the ecological niche of dogs but that wouldnt make them mammals, caring for Young is far from exclusive to Mammals (even some reptiles do it).  

It wasn't just "caring for young" it was the implied "nursing" (which is a mammalian trait - to nurse with milk from the mother's body)

Also, I'm not trying to say they are mammals - just that we don't know enough about the biology and ecosystems to definitely say they are not mammals (by the strictest definition I quoted above from wikipedia). 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Treamayne

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Good points.

It wasn't just "caring for young" it was the implied "nursing" (which is a mammalian trait - to nurse with milk from the mother's body)

Also, I'm not trying to say they are mammals - just that we don't know enough about the biology and ecosystems to definitely say they are not mammals (by the strictest definition I quoted above from wikipedia). 

Fair point on the "Nursing".  That might start to become a rabbit-hole of taxonomy, unless they Nurse something that is literally chemical milk from mammary glands.

"Nursing" is an action that a lot of non-Mammals technically do, they just arent providing it through nipples.  A few types of birds, "notably pigeons, flamingos, and penguins, produce a substance from the lining of their crops (the muscular pouch near the throat where food is temporarily stored) known as crop milk."  And it seems Discus fish are considered pretty decent parents and a Nursing one after they were found to sustain their young on a specially nutritious skin mucus for the first several weeks of life. 

https://daily.jstor.org/how-non-mammals-nurse-their-young/#:~:text=Yes%2C even non-mammals nurse,from the world of birds.

And I should really say that Im not in any way a Biologist, this was just a really fun google-fu exercise.  

[alder24]

49 minutes ago, Quantus said:

As far as Why there doesnt seem to be any native Mammals to Roshar, based on this WOB and a lot of Shallan's Art, I think it's because Roshar has Fain Life.  Six-limbs is supposed to be the hallmark:

I like that connection!

44 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Also, I'm not trying to say they are mammals - just that we don't know enough about the biology and ecosystems to definitely say they are not mammals (by the strictest definition I quoted above from wikipedia). 

Could it be that Adonalsium simply created animals that don't fit neatly into our categorisation system? The system that is created by humans (it does work but still)

Spoiler

Questioner

I notice how in the different worlds you have different sets of powers. Elantris has two gods in it, two Shards, and there are four powers that we've seen, and we've seen three powers on Scadrial. Do you have kind of a formula or general rule for how many magic systems there are in a place?

Brandon Sanderson

No. I was looking at this and decided that what people call a magic system is more a human construct of etymology and categorization than it is an actual true magic systems. You could claim that all the magics on Roshar are just one magic system: applying the powers of nature through the Knights Radiant and stuff like that. You could say that is just one magic. You could say that the magics on Sel, Elantris' world, are all the same magic. People divide them into systems saying "these are Aons and these are with the Skaze" but those are kind of the same thing, it's just different powers. So that's a human construct just like saying animal, vegetable, mineral, mammal, non-mammal. That's a human construct. Yes there are Laws in nature that we are using as our guidelines but those are our constructs.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

[HSuperLee]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

And in scientific terms, I think the fact that they can successfully interbreed with viable, fertile offspring pushes them all the way into a shared Species, making Humans and Singers Subspecies.

This is a lot more complicated in the Cosmere, where reproduction is more than a biological process. It is also a spiritual process by which new spiritwebs are formed. As a result, we could think of reproduction in the Cosmere as a magic system. The fact humans and singers can create viable hybrid offspring would appear to be more of an outgrowth of the Cosmere's reproductive magic system than a function of biology. This would put it in a similar category to stormlight healing, where even genetics takes a backseat to cognitive and spiritual aspects.

[Letryx13]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

As far as Why there doesnt seem to be any native Mammals to Roshar, based on this WOB and a lot of Shallan's Art, I think it's because Roshar has Fain Life.  Six-limbs is supposed to be the hallmark:

Dalinar also mentions in the vision with Midnight Essence that the creatures walk around on six legs, but don't seem natural to him.  Which implies that lots of animals on Roshar, even most native species, are six-limbed.  So I agree, that does seem likely.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Could it be that Adonalsium simply created animals that don't fit neatly into our categorisation system? The system that is created by humans (it does work but still)

That's kind of what I'm thinking.  They're not just a different type of animal, but a whole new category altogether.

[Quantus]

26 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

This is a lot more complicated in the Cosmere, where reproduction is more than a biological process. It is also a spiritual process by which new spiritwebs are formed. As a result, we could think of reproduction in the Cosmere as a magic system. The fact humans and singers can create viable hybrid offspring would appear to be more of an outgrowth of the Cosmere's reproductive magic system than a function of biology. This would put it in a similar category to stormlight healing, where even genetics takes a backseat to cognitive and spiritual aspects.

Oh, I agree entirely, "Scientific Terms" will only ever cover half the equation in the Cosmere (space age notwithstanding). And I would not be at all surprised to learn that the crossbreeding was only possible because of supernatural assistance inherent to Mateform.  

 

 

EDIT:

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I like that connection!

Could it be that Adonalsium simply created animals that don't fit neatly into our categorisation system? The system that is created by humans (it does work but still)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

I notice how in the different worlds you have different sets of powers. Elantris has two gods in it, two Shards, and there are four powers that we've seen, and we've seen three powers on Scadrial. Do you have kind of a formula or general rule for how many magic systems there are in a place?

Brandon Sanderson

No. I was looking at this and decided that what people call a magic system is more a human construct of etymology and categorization than it is an actual true magic systems. You could claim that all the magics on Roshar are just one magic system: applying the powers of nature through the Knights Radiant and stuff like that. You could say that is just one magic. You could say that the magics on Sel, Elantris' world, are all the same magic. People divide them into systems saying "these are Aons and these are with the Skaze" but those are kind of the same thing, it's just different powers. So that's a human construct just like saying animal, vegetable, mineral, mammal, non-mammal. That's a human construct. Yes there are Laws in nature that we are using as our guidelines but those are our constructs.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

I think you're right, there, and we are known to be a bit self-centered when it comes to our Scientific Assumptions. 

Honestly if I were going to make a Tree of Life in the Cosmere, even for just the physical creatures with literal atom-based DNA, I'd still probably have a huge break split Naturally Invested Creatures like Dragons and Larkin right at the top, for those who's life/reproductive  cycle naturally require Investiture. But of course then Id confuse myself trying to classify Ryshadium who seem to have evolved/mutated that change recently.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Quantus

[Argenti]

As I've said before, mateform is min-maxed into making babies so much, nothing short of direct shardic intervention can stop it.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Argenti said:

As I've said before, mateform is min-maxed into making babies so much, nothing short of direct shardic intervention can stop it.

If that were true Singers would use R selection, not K selection.

[Argenti]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If that were true Singers would use R selection, not K selection.

Not necessarily, the mateform mindset might follow R selection, but the other forms don't. Plus as a sentient species they do form emotional bonds

[Frustration]

Just now, Argenti said:

Not necessarily, the mateform mindset might follow R selection, but the other forms don't. Plus as a sentient species they do form emotional bonds

R Selection isn't a mindset, it's a biological process.

Singers just cannot produce enough children to classify as a R selected species. Therefore they are not the best at having children that they possibly could be.

In fact mateform is worse than humans, as can be seen by how slowly singer populations grow.

[Nogo]

I am not going down the mammal rabbit hole here... but I have to say, until RoW the Parshendi, Parshmen, Listeners, Singers, whomever... were more crustation and less human.  Then I saw the drawings in RoW and was amazed at how human-like they are.  My mind's eye lied to me until I saw the picture (even though I should have known better by the Shen/Rlain storylines, among others).  

Random comment about the 3 ear bone thing... do the sounds of Roshar have any influence on that argument?  If Singers & Listeners heard through the 3-bone system could they hear the sounds of Roshar? Or are these two separate types of hearing.  I don't have an opinion--the question just sort of jumped into my mind.

Also--tangent--getting a pic <1MB to post in the profile thing is a challenge that has turned me off from getting a profile pic.  <---- Only mammals would say something like that... so it's not THAT off topic.