Long Game 94: The Call of the Forest of Hell

[Steeldancer he/him]

hasn't properly read the rules

forgot it was starting today, got distracted by skyward sword

and you guys have already written 4 pages. Lovely. Have I ever mentioned day one is the worst? Because day 1 is the worst so I'm going to sit back and watch for now. 

Edit: alright low key I kinda want to go insane because I think it could be funny to just speak gibberish for an entire day and see if anyone can make heads or tails of it

Edited April 26, 2023 by Steeldancer

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon he/him]

23 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

hasn't properly read the rules

forgot it was starting today, got distracted by skyward sword

and you guys have already written 4 pages. Lovely. Have I ever mentioned day one is the worst? Because day 1 is the worst so I'm going to sit back and watch for now. 

Edit: alright low key I kinda want to go insane because I think it could be funny to just speak gibberish for an entire day and see if anyone can make heads or tails of it

Is it just me, or does this feel a little e? He says he's just going to sit back and watch. That could excuse him from being very analytical, as he hasn't got super involved in the game yet. I don't think it's enough to award one of Kas's evil Digimons yet, but maybe we should keep a close eye on him.

EDIT: That last statement was useless, of course we have to keep a close eye on him, we have to keep a close eye on everyone smh aloha 

Spoiler

xD

Spoiler

Aloha haha

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by TheAlpha929

[Ashbringer he/him]

I mean I usually just do it instead of saying I'm doing it. Or just repeatedly note about how busy I am and let people fill in the rest.

[DeTess she/her]

11 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

The main reason a villager would use VitC (making the elims overcommit to protecting at-risk teammates for fear of secret votes) can be accomplished without the failure chance by switching your vote last-minute in thread. The elim reason to use VitC (vote for villagers or remove votes from elims) can't be replaced by changing their vote in thread last-minute since that leaves a permanent identifiable record.

This assumes that every player can be around just before roll-over, which is not a good assumption. For me it would be around 6 AM, and I have no intention of being up and awake enough to figure out who to vote that early on the regular.

Some reads based on stuff I've seen in the thread:

I thought Alpha felt a little different to last game, but on a reread I'm not really seeing it. They were a little more sensitive to getting voted on maybe? Putting them in the *shrug* category, but I' slightly more inclined to lean village right now than elim?

Mat is being quite defensive which I think is a bit suspicious, especially this early in the game. It seems like they're a bit too sensitive to votes on them, so I'm leaning elim on them. 

I'm inclined to village read kasimir just for the amount of effort they seem to be putting into developing reads and getting to grips with the game, though I suspect they're not that different from Aman and the like in that regard where their elim playstyle isn't all that different. I definitely don't want to execute them anytime soon though.

@Archer, what makes you read Sart's post as village leaning?

Archer is giving me some odd vibes. In particular, what seems like an overestimation of the elim-team size stands out to me as odd, though I can't really figure out why an elim would do that.

@Sart I'd like to point out that I didn't say I thought the rest of the rules weren't worth worrying about, just that I didn't see anything else that had discussion potential. You seem to disagree, so could you explain what you meant by the insanity hampering the elims ability to kill a little more?

Anyone I didn't mention I don't really have feeling on right now, so I'm putting my vote on Mat as I suspect them most out of the few I have reads on.

Edited April 26, 2023 by DeTess

[Kasimir he/him]

12 hours ago, TheAlpha929 said:

Well did you get the response you wanted  

I don't know, you make it sound like I wanted a specific response. I just wanted anything that helped me develop a clearer read on you (bonus if anyone else comments in a way that's readable) as I'd always like more data and I'm well aware you have a tendency to appear Evil given your player bracket, which can confound developing an early read on you. Given I had pretty good reason to believe V!you in LG93 and still theorised you could be Evil because I couldn't get over your votes. I commented about it as much to certain players when noting in the just-finished MR that I was wary of DeTess for pushing you as it felt very LHF. 

I'm currently still fine with a read.

11 hours ago, Archer said:

Essentially a Rioter who voted for Person A publicly can drop their vote and move a vote from A to B, causing a three vote shift. I see that as overpowered in games with as close margins as we tend to have. I'll note though that in this game, it's less of a shift since it's only your own vote that moves

Well, yes and no. I do see the major issues Village-side being timestamping vote movements (we don't have that info here unlike in a standard game) and in terms of getting an accurate read on train size or actual commitment, since this can be widespread. But that last statement is very much E!Kas talking when Orlok, Striker, and I didn't know if Striker could or couldn't be saved due to unclarity about Village commitment.

10 hours ago, Elandera said:

I can't remember if I responded to this yet. But no, it cannot be used to cast a no-vote, as that is instead its consequence.

Wonderful, thank you <3

10 hours ago, Sart said:

In terms of the whole Voice in the Crowd debate, I think it benefits the Elims more than the Village. Vote analysis is the quickest way for villagers to get a feel for where arguments have been going and how to analyze the game. With that analysis seriously in question, due to literally everyone having untraceable vote manipulation, it's much more difficult to get a feel for the thread by reading the thread. Yes, it can be used in gambits, but those are generally the province of PM Spiders, which I am generally not one of. All in all, it's an interesting gimmick, but not one I think benefits the Village all that much.

This is tripping a flag for me. I'm not going to elaborate right this moment as I want to return to this discussion later in this post and I think Devo has said some other things and if the rest of the thread ain't showed up, they ain't gonna.

10 hours ago, Sart said:

For that reason, I'll throw a vote on DeTess. I haven't played with you in forever, and this is my way of welcoming you back.

Are we sure Araris hasn't hacked Sart's account? Asking.

5 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Nah, it's my theory that I (or anyone else tbh) carry over residual suspicion from recently concluded good evil games. Villagers subconsciously extra wary of players who had a good evil game recently so I assumed that was the case here and thought it was an evil read. 

Hmm, ok. I'll be fair, my current read of you is maybe half a  or somewhere in  territory. But that's okay as I think I know a V!you tell and will be watching for it. At any rate, I have to believe I am capable of reading you correctly one way or another, otherwise I might as well lie down and let the Elims cut out my throat right here and now.

5 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Aman's wordings comes off as general speak whereas deTess goes into hypotheticals.

Aman's post imo doesn't feel like fence-sitting, it's just matter-of-fact "whoever uses the mechanism better benefits from it the most". deTess explores situations - "Helps evil players, but if villagers do this, it's harmful to evil players" and concludes that it helps both which is an obvious point. 

"Helps whoever uses it better" VERSUS "Helps both" is the distinction. 

Why do you think this is an important distinction?

Because truth to be told, I don't disagree with the fact I think they're different, I'm just struggling to understand your mindset/train of thought.

5 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Village points for this, because they're right. Unless someone is doing some reverse-pocketing and/or it's endgame stage, the function of VitC can be replicated by a final minute vote-shift. And there's no reason why a villager should prefer VitC to it, other than the circumstances I have mentioned above. 

Oh urgh I missed Devo's post didn't I.

13 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

The main reason a villager would use VitC (making the elims overcommit to protecting at-risk teammates for fear of secret votes) can be accomplished without the failure chance by switching your vote last-minute in thread. The elim reason to use VitC (vote for villagers or remove votes from elims) can't be replaced by changing their vote in thread last-minute since that leaves a permanent identifiable record.

Ok. Figured I'd mention part of my motivation for specifically instigating discussion of VitC as compared to say, insanity mech is because I have a strong memory of being Elim in QF59 which had an anon voting mech and I'm aware of my mindset and my team's mindset that game, so I wanted to pick through responses/thoughts about VitC looking for players who might have shared the same headspace.

To save y'all the trouble trawling (though anyone curious about any sleight-of-hand on my part is free to check C1 of that game - focus on what I say, what Orlok says, and what Striker says) - the short is that we tried to blend in and didn't want to pick any risky positions. We really kept agreeing with everyone about anon voting being Evil af and the need for accountability and let people like Maili and (I think Archer? Ash?) be controversial. I don't really believe VitC is a perfect analogue for anon voting mech but it's a fairly close fit (the main issue here of course is the Day action cost and the 20% failure chance.)

So I was looking through the thread to try to get a sensing of the different positions that developed:

Evil-leaning:

-Mat
-Archer
-Sart

It Depends:

-Aman
-DeTess

Not As Advertised:

-Devo
-TJ
-Technically me

Here's the issue: I think the 'Evil-leaning' position is sensible enough that some Villagers are likely to show up there. I also think this is the most intuitive place for an Elim to go. I started out being sus about Mat and Archer for showing up in that bloc, but after further thought, I still sort of maintain that position but as a loose 'I don't think everyone in that bloc is pure' sort of way. I think what's more informative about the positions here is that I sort of want to ascribe both Devo and TJ light  for taking the counter-intuitive positions of downgrading VitC in terms of usefulness. I don't feel that's the most intuitive place to stake a claim as an Elim because it's likely to be questioned.

Sart, ironically, shifted my view somewhat, as reading his post just gave me a Village vibe for reasons I can't really explain. I thought it was the tone issue - V!Sart is noticeably more strongly emotive in choice of words than E!Sart, but it's odd I want to gut Village read Sart when:

1. The language of the post doesn't support my judgement that it's emotive:

10 hours ago, Sart said:

Her post just parroted what was already in the thread. It's just completely blasé. And to top it off, she also says that the rest of the rules aren't worth worrying about! Rules are always worth worrying about. How will we know how the elims might try to fool us, or how we can sus them out. I'm especially interested in the possibility of insanity, and how that can bound the kill potential of the elims.

2. I actually hesitate because I feel the perspective in this paragraph is more than :

10 hours ago, Sart said:

In terms of the whole Voice in the Crowd debate, I think it benefits the Elims more than the Village. Vote analysis is the quickest way for villagers to get a feel for where arguments have been going and how to analyze the game. With that analysis seriously in question, due to literally everyone having untraceable vote manipulation, it's much more difficult to get a feel for the thread by reading the thread. Yes, it can be used in gambits, but those are generally the province of PM Spiders, which I am generally not one of. All in all, it's an interesting gimmick, but not one I think benefits the Village all that much.

I don't understand how this bit works. Because yes, but unless you have a Village full of Amans and Drakes ready to gambit (>> - AG judgement here leaking through soz <3) I don't feel that it is substantively difficult to get a feel for the thread by reading the thread. As Seraphimon, I have every interest in being transparent about my views because if I die I at least want to give people my best to go off, assuming they backread which I know is a very major assumption in these dark days of SE

Sure there's some room for Village play in terms of being tricky, making switches, downplaying certain suspicions, but usually a Villager will clarify soonest possible. I feel that struggling to get a feel for the thread substantively affects Elims more because your bread and butter is built on understanding the thread.

Ah, screw me.

Very reluctant . I don't want to upgrade it at this point because I don't like rewarding people for looking  with  reads >>

Between Archer and Mat, I'm probably a bit more wary of Archer as I feel that Archer just seems a bit more performative there.

I don't substantively agree with the differentiation between DeTess and Aman - I just don't have a strong read of either at this juncture, and Aman saying it comes down to results and accountability is technically true and I agree and I said as much but it still stokes my goddamned paranoia of Aman. I'm going to sigh, take a deep breath, and remind myself Aman is my bro and I wanna be fair to Threadbro and move on >>

FWIW if it's E!Aman and E!TJ just feckin' kill me now please I cannot. If it's E!Araris as well I will just lie down and give up on life >>

4 hours ago, TheAlpha929 said:

Is it just me, or does this feel a little e? He says he's just going to sit back and watch. That could excuse him from being very analytical, as he hasn't got super involved in the game yet. I don't think it's enough to award one of Kas's evil Digimons yet, but maybe we should keep a close eye on him.

Are you gonna vote him then? :eyes:

4 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I mean I usually just do it instead of saying I'm doing it. Or just repeatedly note about how busy I am and let people fill in the rest.

Presume you are sus of Steel then?

2 hours ago, DeTess said:

I'm inclined to village read kasimir just for the amount of effort they seem to be putting into developing reads and getting to grips with the game, though I suspect they're not that different from Aman and the like in that regard where their elim playstyle isn't all that different. I definitely don't want to execute them anytime soon though.

I'll just note that it's one of the great tragedies of SE that people tend to make that assumption especially right before seeing one of my disaster Elim games, but my skills as an Elim are notoriously asymmetrical to my Village play in the worst possible way  Which isn't saying much about my Village play but says volumes about my Elim play. At this point, I've sort of just given up on trying.

I don't really care to say more in the sense that I'm not invested in whether you want to believe this or not. Certainly as I'm saying this in the context of a game, it should be taken with a pinch of salt. That being said, I cannot count the amount of grief I've gotten in SE games because GMs don't want to believe I can't Elim and put me in positions expecting me to be able to do it and then I stress out/blank out/snap and crem happens so it's in my interests to say it repeatedly whenever someone brings this up, even if most people are 'lol k Kas' about it and then shocked Pikachu when I do in fact have a disaster Elim game as a result of this attitude ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Sure, in an ideal world we'd be equally talented at playing every position but sadly we do not live in an ideal world or I'd've gotten more Digimon Adventure and Digimon Adventure tri. wouldn't be such a disaster but I digress  

I am currently okay voting in the <Aloha, Archer> set. I don't have strong feelings about DeTess but would need more persuading to back that sort of push. Araris, TJ, Aman, Devo, Sart, Alv are non-starters for me at this point. Do we know if Fae and Telrao (RIP both) are going to be replaced, @Elandera?

Edited to add:

Forgot JNV also chimed in. Filing JNV as non-committal, and have a hesitant read on them. J/k essentially light/hesitant  at this juncture, but Kiwimon's the closest thing to a quokka I can offer Quokka Buddy.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Kasimir

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon he/him]

3 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Are you gonna vote him then? :eyes:

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Not yet, like I said it’s not enough to really go off of 

Also yeah, Archer, why did you think that was definitely v?

[Kasimir he/him]

30 minutes ago, TheAlpha929 said:

Not yet, like I said it’s not enough to really go off of 

What would you consider enough to really go off, given your willingness to vote on previous C1s?

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon he/him]

See, the issue with LG93 D1 is that it was my very first SE game. I hadn’t the rustiest idea what I was doing. I don’t like chaos-play. And even in the Deception style game I was never evil, and I haven’t got it since then, so I really don’t know what goes on in the minds of the mafia 

[Archer he/him]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:33 AM, Archer said:

Being annoyed can be a Mat elim tell. 

Allow me to circle back to this carefully worded accusation so I can make it more pointed. I have recently learned that this is an irrefutable tell and would probably do well just voting Mat every time he shows it until proven otherwise. Mat TKN

13 hours ago, Sart said:

In terms of the whole Voice in the Crowd debate, I think it benefits the Elims more than the Village. Vote analysis is the quickest way for villagers to get a feel for where arguments have been going and how to analyze the game. With that analysis seriously in question, due to literally everyone having untraceable vote manipulation, it's much more difficult to get a feel for the thread by reading the thread. Yes, it can be used in gambits, but those are generally the province of PM Spiders, which I am generally not one of. All in all, it's an interesting gimmick, but not one I think benefits the Village all that much.

However, I want to transition from the mechanical discussion to more actionable discussion. It's all well and good to analyze mechanics. Trust me, I can do that for ages. However, we must analyze the analysts themselves, in order to see who is coming at the discussion from a biased point of view. In that regard, what immediately stuck out to me was this post.

Her post just parroted what was already in the thread. It's just completely blasé. And to top it off, she also says that the rest of the rules aren't worth worrying about! Rules are always worth worrying about. How will we know how the elims might try to fool us, or how we can sus them out. I'm especially interested in the possibility of insanity, and how that can bound the kill potential of the elims.

For that reason, I'll throw a vote on DeTess. I haven't played with you in forever, and this is my way of welcoming you back.

When I first read the second paragraph, I was prepared to sus Sart for hypocrisy. But then they actually did transition into person analysis instead of just saying that we should. 

I also think the DeTess accusation is fair, given that this was a (sadly unrealized until it was too late, RIP) indication of their evilness from the MR. 

I agree with everything Sart says here, so I'm getting good vibes. 

8 hours ago, TheAlpha929 said:

Is it just me, or does this feel a little e? He says he's just going to sit back and watch. That could excuse him from being very analytical, as he hasn't got super involved in the game yet. I don't think it's enough to award one of Kas's evil Digimons yet, but maybe we should keep a close eye on him.

I don't see it. People make posts saying 'hi, I'm here but I'm sorry I'm not here' to kick things off all the time, and they're Non Alignment Indicative (NAI).

5 hours ago, DeTess said:

Archer is giving me some odd vibes. In particular, what seems like an overestimation of the elim-team size stands out to me as odd, though I can't really figure out why an elim would do that.

Why do you think it's an over-estimation? 

13 minutes ago, TheAlpha929 said:

 I don’t like chaos-play. 

I think you're in the wrong place, my friend :P.

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, TheAlpha929 said:

See, the issue with LG93 D1 is that it was my very first SE game. I hadn’t the rustiest idea what I was doing. I don’t like chaos-play. And even in the Deception style game I was never evil, and I haven’t got it since then, so I really don’t know what goes on in the minds of the mafia 

Hmm, fair enough. I definitely get it's a thing to get used to.

If I've time, I'm gonna go back and actually read the MR to do an Aloha comparison. Maybe the LG, dunno. Time >>

20 minutes ago, Archer said:

Allow me to circle back to this carefully worded accusation so I can make it more pointed. I have recently learned that this is an irrefutable tell and would probably do well just voting Mat every time he shows it until proven otherwise. Mat TKN

Wasn't that Mobborn, i.e. pseudo-Village Mat?

20 minutes ago, Archer said:

I also think the DeTess accusation is fair, given that this was a (sadly unrealized until it was too late, RIP) indication of their evilness from the MR. 

How so?

20 minutes ago, Archer said:

I agree with everything Sart says here, so I'm getting good vibes. 

Tfw I agree with Archer's Sart read but IDK what to think about Archer xD

Let's temper that Steel.

[Kasimir he/him]

I.

No.

Aloha.

Can be persuaded to vote DeTess as well. Reading MR63 now and the difference already jumps out at me.

[Mat he/him]

6 hours ago, DeTess said:

Mat is being quite defensive which I think is a bit suspicious, especially this early in the game. It seems like they're a bit too sensitive to votes on them, so I'm leaning elim on them. 

I'm confused what you're referring to here? I haven't even mentioned the votes on me. I suppose I had some banter with Alpha on p1 but there was literally nothing else to talk about  Quite honestly, I don't know how many votes I have right now and don't particularly care. Besides, if you know anything about my play (which, in all fairness, you don't) then you'd know that I'm never not defensive.

46 minutes ago, Archer said:

Allow me to circle back to this carefully worded accusation so I can make it more pointed. I have recently learned that this is an irrefutable tell and would probably do well just voting Mat every time he shows it until proven otherwise. Mat TKN

Again I ask, where did I show annoyance in this game...?

17 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

How so?

I'll answer this as I agree with Sart's take-- in the MR (where DeTess was evil) she opened with exclusive rules discussion, staying away from giving actual player thoughts for as long as possible. Here, the exact same thing happened. The mech discussion went on for far longer in the MR than here, but it's unclear to me whether that's because of Sart's accusation. Either way, that's the case, that's the take.

Also, on Alpha-- you probably should read the MR to get that comparison yourself, but for me I'm seeing the same kind of play there and here. I think their early more chaotic play was just due to inexperience, and now that they're more comfortable with the game they've moved past that. Which they said themselves, so there you go  Ninja'd by you while writing the below, and I'm interested in what you found, the difference that's jumping out you. Cause I might just be comparing these two games to their first, where a clear difference is.

Misc. Thoughts--

• I don't like Ash's self awareness about not doing anything. This is probably more a playstyle thing than anything else but if you know you're not contributing then why not... start? Why sign up at all? Steel is the same way, but for some reason I'm more willing to give him the pass. Probably shouldn't though. Alv also fits this bill for me where he signs up and then is impossible to read because he makes ties and doesn't post very often, which is a mischaracterization but this game is so much easier if people just post :P.
• I understand TJ's difference between DeTess/Aman and am kinda surprised Kas doesn't. I don't think his TJ progression is fabricated but it almost feels that way. More so than his other reads at least. It's like he's hyper aware that v!him would have this dilemma and is overcompensating. Don't feel strongly about that but it is there. Personally I've liked TJ's posts but do want to do a similarity check with my game where he was evil.
• Kinda touched on this already, but this is only the second time I've actually read Sart's opening as village. Maybe it's just an 'I-agree-with-you' read but I was right last time :P.
• Has Araris posted? I think he has but I don't remember what.

DeTess for now. What's the VC?

[Kasimir he/him]

Me, getting ninjaed by Mat just as I was editing in a one-liner about how I actually thought Mat was more likely to be  contra Archer, and then Mat goes and invalidates my reasoning. Welp. Stay in the nulls to negatives then >>

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Besides, if you know anything about my play (which, in all fairness, you don't) then you'd know that I'm never not defensive.

I can back this up. But I was waiting to see if anyone else would point it out. It's...never the case that Mat isn't defensive as Evil but he often is as a Villager, and it's not always easy to tell the difference between the two. I thought I had it once but figured I was wrong about it.

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I'll answer this as I agree with Sart's take-- in the MR (where DeTess was evil) she opened with exclusive rules discussion, staying away from giving actual player thoughts for as long as possible. Here, the exact same thing happened. The mech discussion went on for far longer in the MR than here, but it's unclear to me whether that's because of Sart's accusation. Either way, that's the case, that's the take.

Yeah, I'm seeing that as I'm reading the MR, but also that's not really Sart's take, IMO. Sart's take isn't about the avoidance of rules discussion here, but about DeTess not actually adding to the discussion but appearing to. Alongside other stuff.

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Also, on Alpha-- you probably should read the MR to get that comparison yourself, but for me I'm seeing the same kind of play there and here. I think their early more chaotic play was just due to inexperience, and now that they're more comfortable with the game they've moved past that. Which they said themselves, so there you go  Ninja'd by you while writing the below, and I'm interested in what you found, the difference that's jumping out you. Cause I might just be comparing these two games to their first, where a clear difference is.

The truth is, I'm not suspicious of Alpha because of chaos play per se. FWIW, I don't think it's worth equating Alpha's LG93 play entirely with chaos play either (and am wary of attempts to do so) because what I was looking for was fundamentally an engagement mindset. I'm suspicious because Alpha's engagement mode here appears more performative than genuinely solvey - he joke votes you this game, he voted you off the bat in MR63 and instantly substantiated with reasons he felt you were suspicious. Sure, you can say that's weird, but I feel like that just demonstrates a different sort of engagement with the game and I don't feel comfortable eliding that at this point.

Alpha C1:

Not much different from joke-vote on you, I agree.

But look at this:

Instant substantiation on request, willing to be helpful. 

More engagement here. Agreed, it's on request, but you're not really seeing this level of responsiveness or at least attempt at thought IMO.

My main issue is the +1ing feels performative in the context of this game. And Alpha explicitly has zero suspicions and is a lot more vote shy - I asked about voting Steel precisely for that reason. There's also the question of how much credit I want to give the Steel read. I'm of the view Steel is both  and LHF. I made a Steel vote to see if I could bait takers, but got overexcited after reading C1 and sort of just decided to go for it.

I am open to changing my mind if I see different play as I continue reading MR63, but that's where I am now. 

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Steel is the same way, but for some reason I'm more willing to give him the pass.

Because this is Steel's meta, mate  And you're recognising it.

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

• I understand TJ's difference between DeTess/Aman and am kinda surprised Kas doesn't. I don't think his TJ progression is fabricated but it almost feels that way. More so than his other reads at least. It's like he's hyper aware that v!him would have this dilemma and is overcompensating. Don't feel strongly about that but it is there. Personally I've liked TJ's posts but do want to do a similarity check with my game where he was evil.

Two things: I do think there's a difference, but I kind of don't feel the particular difference TJ is pointing out justifies a difference in read. My issue with TJ is just more or less IDK whether I'm jumping too fast to give him any  denomination read, but that's a C1 issue anyway so whatever.

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

• Has Araris posted? I think he has but I don't remember what.

Yes, he voted Archer.

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I don't like Ash's self awareness about not doing anything.

Concerned Dingo vibes a bit.

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

• Kinda touched on this already, but this is only the second time I've actually read Sart's opening as village. Maybe it's just an 'I-agree-with-you' read but I was right last time :P.

BRO

YOU

WERE

THE

GM

>>

Edited to add:

Oh hell I stopped partway through C1. Just resumed reading. Check this out:

Like...look. I genuinely feel that as of now, the Kas reading at this point in the cycle, that there is a clear shift in terms of responsiveness, proactiveness, and willingness to be helpful in response to questions. And what I'm seeing here is a lot of performativity and that doesn't sit well with me. That sort of attitude shift feels like it's explained by a difference in alignment between the two games.

I'm happy to have my view changed as I don't really want to be going after a LHF or punishing a new player for struggling to find his feet. But this is where I'm at.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Kasimir

[DeTess she/her]

1 hour ago, Archer said:

Why do you think it's an over-estimation? 

Five is too many elims for a 17 player game in my experience. It would give the players only three mislynches in total, and if there is any sort of killing role or ability (like say, the crossbows), if it hits a villager once it cuts another mislynch. (two cycles with mislynches of kill + a crossbow shot killing a villager would put us at Lilo).
 

9 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I'm confused what you're referring to here? I haven't even mentioned the votes on me. I suppose I had some banter with Alpha on p1 but there was literally nothing else to talk about  Quite honestly, I don't know how many votes I have right now and don't particularly care. Besides, if you know anything about my play (which, in all fairness, you don't) then you'd know that I'm never not defensive.

Gathered every instance I noted before here:

On 4/25/2023 at 6:39 AM, Matrim's Dice said:

For… what, exactly? xD

On 4/25/2023 at 3:09 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

Oh lol that wasn’t meant to be passive aggressive, it was just meant to be passive xD I’m just bad at tone and am an understander of the responses puns can have

I don’t remember, but that could be because it wasn’t used at all :P. I agree with it being naturally elim sided though.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:53 PM, Matrim's Dice said:

True, but I'm not annoyed...?

I have no memory of this. Why do I have no memory of this >>

I'm not getting the feeling you are annoyed exactly, but you did seem to be challenging every early vote or bit of suspicion thrown at you pretty much immediately, which makes me suspicious. You didn't seem that sensitive to suspicion last game.

[The Paradoxical Phenomenon he/him]

26 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I.

No.

Aloha.

Can be persuaded to vote DeTess as well. Reading MR63 now and the difference already jumps out at me.

“The difference”? Of course there’s a difference. I’m sure if you looked at LG93 there would be big differences in the way I’m playing from both the MR and this game. I’m also coming off of two losses, so maybe something needs to change with how I handle different situations. I’m trying to figure out a style that resonates with me, and I haven’t found it yet xD also there are two replies that I can’t see above me since I’m on mobile (not kindle lol) so if they don’t go with the flow of what I’m saying I’m sorry 

Enough defending myself! I need to get in an actual vote, rather than the joke on Mat. I guess I could see e!Mat, but I almost always want to vote Mat. And Aman, I don’t understand what goes on in his head. I’m getting v vibes from Kas. Steel atm ig

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, DeTess said:

Five is too many elims for a 17 player game in my experience. It would give the players only three mislynches in total, and if there is any sort of killing role or ability (like say, the crossbows), if it hits a villager once it cuts another mislynch. (two cycles with mislynches of kill + a crossbow shot killing a villager would put us at Lilo).

Slightly want to  read this TBH. But wary of this in a player of DeTess's venerable experience >>

Edited to add:

4 minutes ago, TheAlpha929 said:

“The difference”? Of course there’s a difference. I’m sure if you looked at LG93 there would be big differences in the way I’m playing from both the MR and this game. I’m also coming off of two losses, so maybe something needs to change with how I handle different situations. I’m trying to figure out a style that resonates with me, and I haven’t found it yet xD also there are two replies that I can’t see above me since I’m on mobile (not kindle lol) so if they don’t go with the flow of what I’m saying I’m sorry 

Enough defending myself! I need to get in an actual vote, rather than the joke on Mat. I guess I could see e!Mat, but I almost always want to vote Mat. And Aman, I don’t understand what goes on in his head. I’m getting v vibes from Kas. Steel atm ig

Fair, and I'm not necessarily hard-committed to your train. I think there's a balance I have to strike between suspicion and letting you figure your style out without killing you for it. I'm also only on p5 of the MR, and am continuing to read. However, I've highlighted my issues and I'll summarise briefly: it's less of specifically a stylistic change and more a change in how much you're engaging with the game. I think there's a commonality in how much LG93 and MR63 Alpha engaged, and how much engagement was coming from you pre-pressure.

Edited to add 2:

If anything, one reason I wanted to flag this is the number of people who played MR63 and were like "yeah this is consistent." Maybe it's fresh eyes, or maybe I'm confbiasing but it doesn't feel consistent as an attitude to me. Which I think could be reflective of them as well.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Kasimir

[Mat he/him]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

and then Mat goes and invalidates my reasoning. Welp. Stay in the nulls to negatives then >>

What was it? Now I'm curious  

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Yeah, I'm seeing that as I'm reading the MR, but also that's not really Sart's take, IMO. Sart's take isn't about the avoidance of rules discussion here, but about DeTess not actually adding to the discussion but appearing to. Alongside other stuff.

I guess for me those two things might as well be the same. Exclusive rules discussion serves to look like you're engaging without necessarily doing so. DeTess isn't doing that this game anymore, though again, is that because it's suddenly under the microscope?

Re: Alpha (not quoting everything)-- understandable, I see what you mean. For me it's always been hard to tell the difference between finding their feet/backsliding, so to speak, with that alignment shift. I probably won't vote here today but I guess I wouldn't be upset if others did.

11 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Because this is Steel's meta, mate  And you're recognising it.

...Okay, fair enough ...

14 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

BRO

...

Ok I'm actually so confused what do you mean by this

13 minutes ago, DeTess said:

I'm not getting the feeling you are annoyed exactly, but you did seem to be challenging every early vote or bit of suspicion thrown at you pretty much immediately, which makes me suspicious. You didn't seem that sensitive to suspicion last game.

I had less suspicion last game, and the reasoning last game was better  Besides, you did the same with Sart.

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

What was it? Now I'm curious  

Disengagement - MR63 had you offering reads and thoughts off the bat and I'd also come off reading LG92 (yep  ) for a comparator of Sart and Steel, so I saw your E!posting style in that game as well. Clearly that was invalidated the moment you switched on engagement mode in that post.

Though lbr, a village disengagement read often feelsbad anyway.

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I guess for me those two things might as well be the same. Exclusive rules discussion serves to look like you're engaging without necessarily doing so. DeTess isn't doing that this game anymore, though again, is that because it's suddenly under the microscope?

Fair.

I mean, DeTess did swap to player discussion eventually, even in MR63. I remember that one because of sussing Alpha for chaosplay (IIRC) which made me go ??? Had to happen either way. I will comment as well that my general impression of DeTess is that she likes to do rules analysis upfront, so IDK. That being said, I had her as nulls but am no longer sure as I might be upgrading my read slightly but need to think that impulse/thought through more.

4 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Re: Alpha (not quoting everything)-- understandable, I see what you mean. For me it's always been hard to tell the difference between finding their feet/backsliding, so to speak, with that alignment shift. I probably won't vote here today but I guess I wouldn't be upset if others did.

Yeah, as I've noted in response to Alpha, I'm not necessarily hard-committed and might prefer to give Alpha the benefit of the doubt at least for C1 just because it's rough to get sussed for trying to find a playstyle that agrees with you, but am also still reading MR63, so my views may even shift with a more complete picture of the game.

6 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

...Okay, fair enough ...

To be fair, I'm overstating it a bit. But one key tell I've noticed of V!Steel is that he tends to be very dgaf and tends to get E!read for that. E!Steel tends to care more about how he is perceived and as a result, can fall into presenteeism. Cf. LG92, where he showed up in thread, voted, and contributed to the discussion on mass roleclaiming. The comparator here is AG9 - he did show up and vote but generally showed very little interest in early cycles. Also outright stated that he just wasn't gonna.

Quote

I know I should be paying attention to this, but I'm sure you guys will understand that I'm very much enjoying Tress and the Emerald Sea right now and my brain is being entirely consumed by that. 

And yeah I'm not an elim. Cuz if I were I wouldn't have killed Dingo. After seeing the dingo kill I was kind of actually anticipating that there would be a push on me from the elims as I figure I'm pretty easy pickings. Which is weird, because I haven't really done anything interesting yet. 

And I'll say this one last time. I found the play style of reverse speaking annoying. That's it. I'm not going to hate the player, or get angry, or really do anything outside a day 1 vote. Not will I be getting upset about other odd playstyles, I just happened to find that one hard to read. I'm not sure why everyone started getting up at arms about it, because I was NEVER going to make a big deal out of it, or hurt anybody's feelings. So I'd appreciate if people would stop blowing it out of proportion. Thank you, I shall return to reading and try and get a vote before rollover. No promises though. 

You could argue he was fairly unapologetic about RL in LG80, which is true, but he also showed up and voted C1 at the end of it.

Steel References:

Spoiler

1. E!Steel:

Three samples of E!Steel from the recent LG92. I don't really advise players to look it up as this had a 29 page D1  I think what's worth taking away is busy Steel drops in with a few quick thoughts and a vote and engages with the massclaim discussion.

2. V!Steel:

Taken from the recent AG. Steel opening with a post that doesn't really have anything.

Votes Ash, but doesn't really have anything else.

Think it's worth noting low engagement despite a D1 of alright busyness levels and challenge about his vote.

Brief engagement with PM mentions.

Cropping out a clash in the AG for what's relevant:

Quote

Edit: also, yes I see you guys thinking I'm suspicious somehow for not finding suspicious stuff day one. I'm sorry, but no matter the game, I ALWAYS take a few days to gather information before I can really start getting a solid read on people. I've never been the kind of person to do detailed analysis before about... day 3 usually. So, leave me alone. I got some information out of it, so I'm happy with the situation. I'm going to leave well enough alone personally. 

Source post here:

Quote

I know I should be paying attention to this, but I'm sure you guys will understand that I'm very much enjoying Tress and the Emerald Sea right now and my brain is being entirely consumed by that. 

And yeah I'm not an elim. Cuz if I were I wouldn't have killed Dingo. After seeing the dingo kill I was kind of actually anticipating that there would be a push on me from the elims as I figure I'm pretty easy pickings. Which is weird, because I haven't really done anything interesting yet. 

And I'll say this one last time. I found the play style of reverse speaking annoying. That's it. I'm not going to hate the player, or get angry, or really do anything outside a day 1 vote. Not will I be getting upset about other odd playstyles, I just happened to find that one hard to read. I'm not sure why everyone started getting up at arms about it, because I was NEVER going to make a big deal out of it, or hurt anybody's feelings. So I'd appreciate if people would stop blowing it out of proportion. Thank you, I shall return to reading and try and get a vote before rollover. No promises though. 

Highlighting this. There's a major lack of urgency from Steel. He's more interested in his own stuff, and makes mention of this through the rest of the game with regard to reading Tress rather than paying attention to the game. Which is fair, he does him, but I think it's quite a glaring contrast to the presenteeism from E!Steel where he tries to appear present and stay active.

IMO that's much closer to:

This.

I am aware of a second V!Steel tell I'd be watching for, but I'm ok with a  or more modest  read for the moment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

11 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Ok I'm actually so confused what do you mean by this

Thought you were referencing LG93.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Hmm, fair enough. I definitely get it's a thing to get used to.

If I've time, I'm gonna go back and actually read the MR to do an Aloha comparison. Maybe the LG, dunno. Time >>

Wasn't that Mobborn, i.e. pseudo-Village Mat?

How so?

Tfw I agree with Archer's Sart read but IDK what to think about Archer xD

Let's temper that Steel.

I think the part of Mat that gets annoyed and hyperreacts to suspicion is still triggered by the Mobborn, despite it being a pseudo village. But I don't entirely remember how reactive he was.

[Kasimir he/him]

Uggggggh.

Ok.

Say I think it's not great to be pushing Alpha now regardless of my thoughts - I really appreciate players giving grace for playstyle changes, and I've reached this comment from Alpha here.

I don't think it alters my suspicions substantively but it does make me less directly willing to want to go for it right here and now on C1.

Bracketing Alpha:

• I do feel a bit good about Devo. I feel as though I'm seeing hints of her Village meta at this juncture (uncertain, observe more), but also in general, feel she positioned herself someplace not very intuitive for an Elim. Non-starter for now. 
   
• Sigh. My heart says no to any train on TJ. Also still feel his opening is a good look, and as much as my heart lies about TJ... yeah. Don't feel E!TJ opens that way either, and am waiting as I believe I'm aware of a second Village tell where he's concerned. Non-starter for now.  vicinity, maybe , IDRK.
   
• It's counterintuitive but I have a positive gut read of Sart, that, for the reasons I've outlined, which actually boils down to "Village me always thinks Village Sart is kayana and when Sart sounds sane, he's Evil." So sue me, it's worked in the past ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There's probably a more respectable way of framing it given my concerns that Sart's anti-DeTess argument begins from what I take to be a very Elim perspective, but it's tonally/spiritually consistent with his post as Mint Heron, and at core, I just feel it is a good opening post. E!Sart has an aggravated opening in LG92 but that's way more curt/aggravated and I don't feel that coming from him here.  vicinity, maybe , IDRK.
   
• Policy no to Araris and Alv. Araris / Porch Bro is negotiable, Alv / Chance Bro is not.  on both.
   
• I...regret to say this but my gut doesn't feel too good about Aman and I think I know why. I don't want to say more about it at this juncture except that it makes me feel very :| because ThreadPMBro. Realistically, . Want to watch.
   
• I've laid out my reasons in the Steel References of my previous post why I think Steel is . I could be wrong but I am aware of a second V!Steel tell I'm keeping my eyes open for. I'll note that Fifth validated my V!Steel dgaf read previously, so I do feel moderately confident.
   
• Mild  on JNV for disengagement. Disengagement  reads feel bad so I've watered it down, but fundamentally don't feel I'm mistaken given MR63.
   
• I will surprise myself with a mild  on TKN. Sort of gut for this. I think it's based on his play so far, but I know that's not a very strong reason. Will have to keep watching, potential downgrade to  in the vicinity.
   
• Fae and Telrao are a wash at the moment, due to non-presence. Either there's a PH, or they'll be filtered out. I don't regard their alignemnt as a current problem to be solved/solvable. 
   
• I'm getting mild Dingo vibes off Ash but am also very aware that Ash has V and E moments like this, so I'm going to chalk this down to a moderately  place and keep him in PoE.
   
• Which...leaves me with a DeTess, Mat, Archer headache. Of course it does >>

I don't really know I feel one way or another about Mat. I'd agree about the defensiveness but I think that triggers often enough I don't feel I am capable of reliably identifying when it's V!Mat or E!Mat getting triggered. It's one of those cases where I sort of see the reasons for the train yet sort of don't really feel it, I think. I need to go re-read some E!Mat games actually :| 

Gonna say this about DeTess: my current read of MR63 actually makes me feel positive about DeTess. So I'm not sure. Comes down to DeTess going for the LHF there, which doesn't feel like her strategy here. I can close-read her posts a bit more if my health holds up.

With Archer, I think it's the seeming performativeness and profile that gets more, more than anything else. But worth a re-read.

Guess I'm fine re-adding Ash to the list.

I'm not sure I'm changing my vote but I'm not sure I'm comfortable staying either, so might as well work out who I'd be down for if not them.

Edited to add: Eh whatever I'll spell it out. Concerned that Aman's WiM is missing. That tends to be more a V!Aman deal. The counterpoint is that he compensates for it as E!Aman by sitting on the thread like Smaug but I just kinda don't feel it at this juncture. Maybe it's just my processing the trauma from LG93, IDK >>

Edited to add 2: Ah RIP missed Araris's post. God >> This is what I get for posting muddled.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Kasimir

[DeTess she/her]

54 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I mean, DeTess did swap to player discussion eventually, even in MR63. I remember that one because of sussing Alpha for chaosplay (IIRC) which made me go ??? Had to happen either way. I will comment as well that my general impression of DeTess is that she likes to do rules analysis upfront, so IDK. That being said, I had her as nulls but am no longer sure as I might be upgrading my read slightly but need to think that impulse/thought through more.

Yeah, this is, as far as I know, true. I like to start with a bit of rules discussion or thoughts just to get something to talk about and get some discussion going, then start looking back after 24 hours or so have passed to try and form some reads on players. Of course, me being aware of that pattern also means that it is probably fairly NAI behavior for me.

I'll be signing off for the rest of the cycle here. please don't execute me . I'll see you all either in the night cycle, or slowly arriving in the dead doc

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 hour ago, TheAlpha929 said:

And Aman, I don’t understand what goes on in his head.

You and me both, friendo

21 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Edited to add: Eh whatever I'll spell it out. Concerned that Aman's WiM is missing. That tends to be more a V!Aman deal. The counterpoint is that he compensates for it as E!Aman by sitting on the thread like Smaug but I just kinda don't feel it at this juncture. Maybe it's just my processing the trauma from LG93, IDK >>

Ugh same. I’m honestly appalled no one has voted for Aman yet. Smh.

Jokes aside, I noticed my lack of WiM too, but I’m sure it’ll come eventually. I didn’t get a role or any items that lend toward fun gambit plays or can enable reaction tests, which I suspect is a factor. Mostly it’s combination of my ADHD brain being drawn to Redshift at the moment (writing being the last thing I want to discourage for myself) and that this game ended up with more players than I had mentally prepared for.

No one in particular has really stood out to me either, so my Aloha vote had just been initially because I don’t mind following Kas’ leads when I trust him and have no good ones for myself. I also wanted to get a three way tie going to widen the net and see who favors which exes. Then TKN retracted his vote on Aloha and it felt potentially E/E, so to test that, I’ve not felt a need to vote elsewhere.

That said, I’d like a VC. Considering options because I’m enjoying the idea of a D1 Aloha exe less and less. Though Aloha would make an excellent thread title, given it means hello and goodbye

[Kasimir he/him]

And lo, the people crieth unto Elan for a VC.

And the Goddess was silent.

Then Mordekai went forth, and stretched out his hand and—

And Kas then popped another tablet and cursed the -19 plague sweeping through his household, and sighed.

"C'mon Tallybot," he said, and didn't feel remotely like redoing the code.

—and Mordekai found paper and pen and wrote it out because Warmmha helped those who helped themselves.

Quote

Steel (1): Aloha
DeTess (2): Mat, Sart
Mat (2):  Archer, DeTess
Archer (2): Araris, TJ
Aloha (2): Aman, Kas

Someone @ me if I missed something I'm still not feeling that great.

Comments as I scrolled back for votes and redid this:

-Archer's vote is strangely elastic on Mat
- @The Known Novel What do you mean by you feel good about Mat?
-I see TJ and Araris have gotten tired of aggressive distancing :eyes:
-Four way tie seems to point back to the low tempo problem IMO.

Edited to add:

29 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Ugh same. I’m honestly appalled no one has voted for Aman yet. Smh.

Tbh part of me had been wondering if it was you having a rough landing in C1 and figuring I might get more info going forwards. But I'm also willing to acknowledge again that I have a problem when it comes to easily making excuses for certain players ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited April 26, 2023 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

And lo, the people crieth unto Elan for a VC.

And the Goddess was silent.

Then Mordekai went forth, and stretched out his hand and—

And Kas then popped another tablet and cursed the -19 plague sweeping through his household, and sighed.

"C'mon Tallybot," he said, and didn't feel remotely like redoing the code.

—and Mordekai found paper and pen and wrote it out because Warmmha helped those who helped themselves.

Quote

Steel (1): Aloha
DeTess (2): Mat, Sart
Mat (2):  Archer, DeTess
Archer (2): Araris, TJ
Aloha (2): Aman, Kas

Someone @ me if I missed something I'm still not feeling that great.

Comments as I scrolled back for votes and redid this:

-Archer's vote is strangely elastic on Mat
- @The Known Novel What do you mean by you feel good about Mat?
-I see TJ and Araris have gotten tired of aggressive distancing :eyes:
-Four way tie seems to point back to the low tempo problem IMO.

NGL, I love that it’s still a tie. I say let it rand!

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

NGL, I love that it’s still a tie. I say let it rand!

If we break the tie, Alv's gonna be mad isn't he.

Eh yes and no. I'm not really fond of the low tempo - usually leads me to think no Elim is under threat or significantly under threat.

Edited to add:

Inb4 we find out half the game VitCed and the end wagon is something else entirely >>

@Elandera If players use VitC to push through a hammer, what will we see?

Suppose:

Quote

Steel (1): Aloha
DeTess (2): Mat, Sart
Mat (2):  Archer, DeTess
Archer (2): Araris, TJ
Aloha (2): Aman, Kas

Well, sorry two scenarios.

A. Suppose all our red players use VitC to vote TJ. What's the final result? What will the votecount look like in the write-up, on the assumption none of their votes were lost?

B. Suppose Steel is Evil, and has sent in an anonymous vote but hasn't made a thread vote. Steel votes for Aman. Do we see:

Aman (1): 

or 

Aman (1): Steel?

Edited April 26, 2023 by Kasimir