Fullborn vs. 5th ideal windrunner 2.0

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You know, there is a problem with lashing a black hole - as soon they get close to it, they're dead. Investiture won't help here, as it also is affected by gravity in the same way energy is, and it will fall into a black hole. And how do you touch a black hole to lash it, when its singularity is beyond the event horizon, and the event horizon isn't a physical thing that you can touch?

You're confusing two things.

I never suggested lashing a black hole, just throwing the Fullborn into it.

[Duxredux]

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

You're confusing two things.

I never suggested lashing a black hole, just throwing the Fullborn into it.

Cool idea in theory. I don't think there's a black hole remotely close to Scadrial or Roshar. Anything look like one in the Cosmere at all? https://coppermind.net/w/images/Cosmere_constellation_map.jpg

For reference, the closest black hole to Earth is 1600 light years away.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Duxredux
Clarity

[Sky Breaker]

I think with both of them functionally immortal the only way to win would be to trap the in an aluminum box that’s thick enough that they can’t get out which would be easier for the fullborn 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Duxredux said:

For reference, the closest black hole to Earth is 1600 light years away.

The closest known black hole. For all we know there might be a primordial black hole hidden in our Solar System and we simply can't detect it yet.

Currently, only Taldain seems to be advanced enough to mathematically prove that black holes can exist, and possibly observe and detect some of them with their technology. Rest of the Cosmere is just not there yet to know what even is a black hole. 

And you're showing a constellation map, which shows visible stars in the night sky of some planet. Black holes usually don't produce light, and if so, they would be just mistaken for a star because people don't know about them yet.

[Duxredux]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The closest known black hole. For all we know there might be a primordial black hole hidden in our Solar System and we simply can't detect it yet.

Currently, only Taldain seems to be advanced enough to mathematically prove that black holes can exist, and possibly observe and detect some of them with their technology. Rest of the Cosmere is just not there yet to know what even is a black hole. 

And you're showing a constellation map, which shows visible stars in the night sky of some planet. Black holes usually don't produce light, and if so, they would be just mistaken for a star because people don't know about them yet.

You make a valid point that it can be hard to locate a black hole, but that just makes it that much harder for the Windrunner to find one to lob a Fullborn into. Assuming they had the necessary astrophysics degree to know exactly where one was, the precision needed to throw an object that far would require literal rocket science trajectory accuracy from a uncooperative Fullborn, using a single massively powerful impulse of force, no opportunity for midflight couse correction, at an object they can't see directly, and as far as I know, no Fortune to help them line up that shot.

Instead, why not look at the options the Fullborn has if hurled into space or towards a sun? They have them, using A-Aluminum to cancel the Lashing, F-Gold, F-Cadmium, F-Bendalloy to heal, breath and eat, F-Iron to let them scoot themselves around in zero G by adjusting their weight as they alternately Push and Pull an anchor. To demonstrate scale, the distance from the Earth to the Sun is 8.2 light minutes, which probably is enough time for a Fullborn to come up with a plan.

On a side note, do we know how well Lashings work in space far away from a planet? On Roshar, it looks like they change the direction component of the vector for the force of gravity from Roshar, multiple or partial Lashings affecting the mahnitude of the vector. Away from a planetary mass, Lashings may not give much acceleration.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Duxredux
Clarity

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

On a side note, do we know how well Lashings work in space far away from a planet? On Roshar, it looks like they change the direction component of the vector for the force of gravity from Roshar, multiple or partial Lashings affecting the mahnitude of the vector. Away from a planetary mass, Lashings may not give much acceleration.

They can easily travel in space:

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a Windrunner fly into space?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it actually wouldn’t be that hard, because Windrunners can control pressure, also. And as long as you have Stormlight, you don’t have to breathe. It’s harder for a Skybreaker. Windrunner… As long as you don’t run out of Stormlight, you could travel between planets as a Windrunner if you have enough Stormlight. Wouldn’t be too difficult. Kaladin could probably do it.

Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020)

 

4 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Instead, why not look at the options the Fullborn has if hurled into space or towards a sun? They have them, using A-Aluminum to cancel the Lashing, F-Gold, F-Cadmium, F-Bendalloy to heal, breath and eat, F-Iron to let them scoot themselves around in zero G by adjusting their weight as they alternately Push and Pull an anchor. To demonstrate scale, the distance from the Earth to the Sun is 8.2 light minutes, which probably is enough time for a Fullborn to come up with a plan.

I'm not arguing for or against Fullborn here, but yes, they can nullify Lashings with A-aluminum, and with F-Iron reducing their mass, they can push themself from ions of iron and other metal which are present in the solar wind. That would be slow, but that's enough in space. They can also start pushing from dust particles or if they're very lucky, from small rocks and asteroids. Or just literally reduce their mass to become a solar sail, using light from the star to push them back into the planet.

If a Windrunner were to lash Fullborn outside of the star system, then they could push themself from objects in the Oort Cloud back into the planet, or again, if they're lucky to encounter some small rock or asteroids, they could use those as well. 

That won't be easy for them, it would certainly take some time, but Fullborn aren't as helpless in space as some might think.

And tbf, with both of them being infinitely invested, lashing or investing them in any way would be impossible.

[therunner]

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm not arguing for or against Fullborn here, but yes, they can nullify Lashings with A-aluminum, and with F-Iron reducing their mass, they can push themself from ions of iron and other metal which are present in the solar wind. That would be slow, but that's enough in space. They can also start pushing from dust particles or if they're very lucky, from small rocks and asteroids. Or just literally reduce their mass to become a solar sail, using light from the star to push them back into the planet.

Not going to get into details of this entire discussion, however there is a lower bound on how much attribute you can store (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1096)
That is an area where Fullborn is just as limited as regular Feruchemist, so they would not be able to push off ions, or even dust particles, they would not be able to get that light.

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

If a Windrunner were to lash Fullborn outside of the star system, then they could push themself from objects in the Oort Cloud back into the planet, or again, if they're lucky to encounter some small rock or asteroids, they could use those as well. 

That won't be easy for them, it would certainly take some time, but Fullborn aren't as helpless in space as some might think.

Additionally, space is reeaaaly empty, and range on Pushes/Pulls is 'small' (as in dozens of feet for Lerasium Mistborn) and BoM (if they can be taken as example) don't really showcase that range would increase to millions of km (which would the bare minimum you would need in space).
E.g. Kuiper belt (relatively 'dense' part of Solar System) has average space between two objects ~ couple of million of km.
So if Somehow Windrunner managed to get Fullborn into space and fired them in basically any direction, Fullborn is doomed to die (if they have finite resources).

Not to undersell Fullborn, but in space they are pretty much helpless as far as mobility goes, simply because there is nothing for them to push on.

Edited April 3, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

Not going to get into details of this entire discussion, however there is a lower bound on how much attribute you can store (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1096)
That is an area where Fullborn is just as limited as regular Feruchemist, so they would not be able to push off ions, or even dust particles, they would not be able to get that light.

Yes, there is a low limit, but they don't have to be lighter than atoms. They just need to be as light as possible, and start to accumulate metal particles around them by pulling/pushing them, until they have enough to propel themself through space by pushing on them. And because there is no air resistance, that's enough to slowly gain speed and change direction. They can even use their own metalminds or metal flakes. They only need to become an ion engine themself.

I'm not saying that it would be a very effective method, but it's something they can do.

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Additionally, space is reeaaaly empty, and range on Pushes/Pulls is 'small' (as in dozens of feet for Lerasium Mistborn) and BoM (if they can be taken as example) don't really showcase that range would increase to millions of km (which would the bare minimum you would need in space).
E.g. Kuiper belt (relatively 'dense' part of Solar System) has average space between two objects ~ couple of million of km.

That's why I said "if they're very lucky"  
And those regions of the asteroid belt, the Kuiper belt and likely the Oort Cloud, are more dusty than other regions of the Solar System, so there are "a bit" more particles to catch and push from. Of course, if Fullborn got lashed not in the direction of the Solar System orbital plane, they have to wait only for the Oort Cloud, which is the most likely scenario, and that's why I mentioned mainly the Oort Cloud. Still, there would be "some" dust and solar winds everywhere for them to accumulate.

[therunner]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, there is a low limit, but they don't have to be lighter than atoms. They just need to be as light as possible, and start to accumulate metal particles around them by pulling/pushing them, until they have enough to propel themself through space by pushing on them. And because there is no air resistance, that's enough to slowly gain speed and change direction. They can even use their own metalminds or metal flakes. They only need to become an ion engine themself.

I'm not saying that it would be a very effective method, but it's something they can do.

That's why I said "if they're very lucky"  
And those regions of the asteroid belt, the Kuiper belt and likely the Oort Cloud, are more dusty than other regions of the Solar System, so there are "a bit" more particles to catch and push from. Of course, if Fullborn got lashed not in the direction of the Solar System orbital plane, they have to wait only for the Oort Cloud, which is the most likely scenario, and that's why I mentioned mainly the Oort Cloud. Still, there would be "some" dust and solar winds everywhere for them to accumulate.

"Bit more" in this context is still something like ~100 atoms per m^3, since most of the material is bound up in the comets and asteroids. They would need quite a while before they would gather enough to actually move anywhere

Human body has ~7 octillion atoms, ~10^28, so even if they could reduce their weight to 0.1%, they would have to gather all atoms within 10^25 m^3 of space to be able to effectively push (as in, move themselves and not the dust cloud).

Assuming range of their pulls is  1 km (10^3 m) then they would have to travel for ~10^17 meters (circa 10 light year) before gathering enough material to push off of.

Fullborn is dead in water in space.

And this does not even consider that most of the free atoms in space is hydrogen, followed by helium, neither of which would count as metal most likely (since Mistborn or Fullborn cannot push on water), so it would take even longer to gather enough metallic atoms.

Edit: Using their own metalminds is possible, but they would not be able to break off atom sized bytes, so they would be far less effective. Plus, the fact that metalminds are presumably as Invested as possible in this case limits Fullborn since they would not be able to push on them effectively.

Edited April 3, 2023 by therunner

[NameIess]

If the Windrunner actually had enough Stormlight to lash a Fullborn into the sun within a reasonable amount of time, then this isn’t a battle between Windrunner and Fullborn. It’s a battle between Honor and Harmony, or at least two people who’ve Ascended Well of Ascension style.

Now, if we take a more reasonable definition of “infinite” metals/Stormlight by saying that both Radiant and Fullborn are being directly fueled by their respective Shard as the Heralds/Vin/Elend we’re, the. I think the discussion will go better.

With that definition, I’d give the win to the Fullborn 10/10 assuming that heralds don’t heal more weakly than Radiants, as the Heralds died during desolations so it must be possible to kill someone even with infinite Stormlight. Assuming Radiant healing is superior, I’d still give it to the Fullborn as infinite Atium means immortality, and unlike in a regular fight where the Radiant could maybe disconnect their metalminds, the Fullborn can constantly duraluminum compound the infinite gold they have for unlimited healing at levels that make Miles’ healing pale in comparison. Even if they can’t kill the Radiant, they can outlive them.

[That1Cellist]

9 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

If the Windrunner actually had enough Stormlight to lash a Fullborn into the sun within a reasonable amount of time, then this isn’t a battle between Windrunner and Fullborn. It’s a battle between Honor and Harmony, or at least two people who’ve Ascended Well of Ascension style.

Now, if we take a more reasonable definition of “infinite” metals/Stormlight by saying that both Radiant and Fullborn are being directly fueled by their respective Shard as the Heralds/Vin/Elend we’re, the. I think the discussion will go better.

With that definition, I’d give the win to the Fullborn 10/10 assuming that heralds don’t heal more weakly than Radiants, as the Heralds died during desolations so it must be possible to kill someone even with infinite Stormlight. Assuming Radiant healing is superior, I’d still give it to the Fullborn as infinite Atium means immortality, and unlike in a regular fight where the Radiant could maybe disconnect their metalminds, the Fullborn can constantly duraluminum compound the infinite gold they have for unlimited healing at levels that make Miles’ healing pale in comparison. Even if they can’t kill the Radiant, they can outlive them.

Wait, so what you're trying to say is that neither one can really "win", but a Fullborn can live forever with infinite resources, meaning that they would outlive the Windrunner?

[therunner]

48 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

If the Windrunner actually had enough Stormlight to lash a Fullborn into the sun within a reasonable amount of time, then this isn’t a battle between Windrunner and Fullborn. It’s a battle between Honor and Harmony, or at least two people who’ve Ascended Well of Ascension style.

Now, if we take a more reasonable definition of “infinite” metals/Stormlight by saying that both Radiant and Fullborn are being directly fueled by their respective Shard as the Heralds/Vin/Elend we’re, the. I think the discussion will go better.

With that definition, I’d give the win to the Fullborn 10/10 assuming that heralds don’t heal more weakly than Radiants, as the Heralds died during desolations so it must be possible to kill someone even with infinite Stormlight. Assuming Radiant healing is superior, I’d still give it to the Fullborn as infinite Atium means immortality, and unlike in a regular fight where the Radiant could maybe disconnect their metalminds, the Fullborn can constantly duraluminum compound the infinite gold they have for unlimited healing at levels that make Miles’ healing pale in comparison. Even if they can’t kill the Radiant, they can outlive them.

Heralds in fact do heal worse than Radiants, because the bond between Honorblades and them is shallower, E.g. Szeth cannot heal Shardblade cut. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) Heralds themselves had some other powers, but presumably the healing came from Honorblades and Stormlight. So they would be able to heal repeatadly (infinite stormlight from Honor) however there were wounds they would be unable to heal (but Radiant could).
Also, healing of Radiants is very spiritual based, and likened to Hoid healing here (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435). So I would expect Radiant healing to be superior to Compounded Gold, even when both have infinite supplies.

Additionally, Shardblade to the spine kills even Fused, and severs on all three realms. Since Fullborn is dependant on mainting connection to Metalminds for his healing, severed spine/head could probably kill them. Of course F-steel renders this line of attack moot.

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

Additionally, Shardblade to the spine kills even Fused, and severs on all three realms. Since Fullborn is dependant on mainting connection to Metalminds for his healing, severed spine/head could probably kill them. Of course F-steel renders this line of attack moot.

How many times do I have to say this - keep your metalminds close to your brain! Piercings, teeth, metal plates in your skull.  

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, That1Cellist said:

Wait, so what you're trying to say is that neither one can really "win", but a Fullborn can live forever with infinite resources, meaning that they would outlive the Windrunner?

Yep.

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

Heralds in fact do heal worse than Radiants, because the bond between Honorblades and them is shallower, E.g. Szeth cannot heal Shardblade cut. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) Heralds themselves had some other powers, but presumably the healing came from Honorblades and Stormlight. So they would be able to heal repeatadly (infinite stormlight from Honor) however there were wounds they would be unable to heal (but Radiant could).
Also, healing of Radiants is very spiritual based, and likened to Hoid healing here (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435). So I would expect Radiant healing to be superior to Compounded Gold, even when both have infinite supplies.

Additionally, Shardblade to the spine kills even Fused, and severs on all three realms. Since Fullborn is dependant on mainting connection to Metalminds for his healing, severed spine/head could probably kill them. Of course F-steel renders this line of attack moot.

All healing is soul-based, and we know that F-gold can heal Shardblade wounds:

Quote

Kurkistan

Does a limb that has been "severed" by a Shardblade have any Hemalurgic bindpoints? If the same limb was then cut off more conventionally, would a Bloodmaker ferring be able to grow it back?

Brandon Sanderson

A severed Shardblade limb needs repair to the soul before it would function again. A Bloodmaker would be able to heal it without needing to grow it back.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 18, 2013)

So it’s safe to say that with infinite F-gold a Fullborn would be fine. Also, Fused only die to Shardblades when their gemhearts are broken, I believe they can survive spine hits.

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

How many times do I have to say this - keep your metalminds close to your brain! Piercings, teeth, metal plates in your skull.  

That won't matter if the spine is severed, that instantly severs the entire soul.

16 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

So it’s safe to say that with infinite F-gold a Fullborn would be fine. Also, Fused only die to Shardblades when their gemhearts are broken, I believe they can survive spine hits.

I don't think we've ever seen them take a spine hit. The closest thing I can think of is when Kaladin was fighting one on the walls of Kholinar, but there I don't think it ever mentions him severing the spine.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

That won't matter if the spine is severed, that instantly severs the entire soul.

I don't think we've ever seen them take a spine hit. The closest thing I can think of is when Kaladin was fighting one on the walls of Kholinar, but there I don't think it ever mentions him severing the spine.

So a Radiant would be killed by a spine hit? I believe that regrowth Fused have taken spine hits, as Kaladin mentioned they only died if you hit the right spot on their sternum, breaking the gemheart.

Regardless, there is literally no way that a Radiant could ever get such a hit off. Infinite duraluminum-powered compounding of all 16 metals means infinite speed equal or greater to what Marasi used, along with infinite Atium. The Fullborn can dodge the Radiant until they die, no problem.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Nameless* said:

So a Radiant would be killed by a spine hit?

They'd better.

1 hour ago, Nameless* said:

 I believe that regrowth Fused have taken spine hits, as Kaladin mentioned they only died if you hit the right spot on their sternum, breaking the gemheart.

Regrowth ones I could see, they have boosted healing.

[PinkPlasma]

infinite metal reserves is like. infinite speed. ininite health. infinte strength. its completely unfair

edit cus i wanted to add more

like with infinite fureochemy... its like saying they can pause time. it won't matter if the radiant has infinite stormlight if they are in a thousand little chunks spread across the world. like you wouldn't even need to be a fullborn to win that fight you would just have to be a furochemist, because there is no limit on how much of their power they can pull at once. (as stated in the books so i will assume this is true until proven otherwise) I honestly don't think this is even interesting to debate if its that drastic of an advantage.

Edited April 4, 2023 by PinkPlasma

[therunner]

4 hours ago, Nameless* said:

So it’s safe to say that with infinite F-gold a Fullborn would be fine. Also, Fused only die to Shardblades when their gemhearts are broken, I believe they can survive spine hits.

I believe that regrowth Fused have taken spine hits, as Kaladin mentioned they only died if you hit the right spot on their sternum, breaking the gemheart.

Kaladin in RoW states that Fused die when hit to head, spine or gemheart with Shardblade.
That is despite them having Voidlight in system.

Could you find the part with Regrowth Fused? Or at least general location in book?

3 hours ago, Nameless* said:

So a Radiant would be killed by a spine hit?

With Shardblade/Honorblade? Possibly.

Edit: Thought Regrowth could heal that possibly, and Radiant healing is superior to Regrowth (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/451/#e14448).
Though I think in this particular case the issue would be that Connection to body and Physical realm is severed, so healing has nothing to heal.

Edited April 4, 2023 by therunner

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

They'd better.

Regrowth ones I could see, they have boosted healing.

Given the level of healing a Fullborncan output, they should be able to keep up with boosted healing.

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

Kaladin in RoW states that Fused die when hit to head, spine or gemheart with Shardblade.
That is despite them having Voidlight in system.

Could you find the part with Regrowth Fused? Or at least general location in book?

With Shardblade/Honorblade? Possibly.

Edit: Thought Regrowth could heal that possibly, and Radiant healing is superior to Regrowth (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/451/#e14448).
Though I think in this particular case the issue would be that Connection to body and Physical realm is severed, so healing has nothing to heal.

It was in OB I believe, during the battle of Thaylen city. And Wyndle believes that Lift could heal Shardblades wounds with regrowth, and Nale actually did do it to Szeth with a Fabrial.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless* said:

Given the level of healing a Fullborncan output, they should be able to keep up with boosted healing.

It's more of stacking multiple abilities that let you do the same thing, not just having more power to apply to the same ability. So no, they wouldn't.

3 minutes ago, Nameless* said:

And Wyndle believes that Lift could heal Shardblades wounds with regrowth, and Nale actually did do it to Szeth with a Fabrial.

That's someone else healing them.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's more of stacking multiple abilities that let you do the same thing, not just having more power to apply to the same ability. So no, they wouldn't.

I’d agree with that for Radiant healing, but Feruchemy’s whole thing is being able to tap without limit so long as you have enough attribute.

Quote

That's someone else healing them.

I don’t see the difference. We know from Nale that a Regrowth Fabrial can invest a soul and heal the connection between it and a body, so if a soul is properly invested with healing power it should be able to do the same regardless of source, so long as the Investment is at least equal to that given by Regrowth Fabrials. F-good can be better, so I don’t think there should be any problem in a Fullborn healing their Shardblade wounds.

[cometaryorbit]

I'd be really surprised if a Shardblade to the spine killed 4th+ ideal Radiants. Lower ideal sure, but I think it's fatal to Fused for the same reason a crushed skull kills Heralds.

I think Nale wasn't completely immortal when Honor was alive only because he was a Cognitive Shadow and his body was imperfectly "his", I think a living Radiant with the ability to draw direct from Honor could only die to anti-Light or Nightblood/other Leeching-type effects powerful enough to overcome their maximum feed rate.

Spine Shardblade being fatal would make Radiants a little less ridiculously overpowered though.

[therunner]

9 hours ago, Nameless* said:

I’d agree with that for Radiant healing, but Feruchemy’s whole thing is being able to tap without limit so long as you have enough attribute.

But Fullborn can fundamentally still only do what regular Feruchemist can, they just have more stores to do it with. So they can heal quicker (not caring about loss), and more grevious wounds, but if there is some fundamental limitation, then they won't be able to bypass it (e.g. limit on storage rate, F-steel and friction, etc.). Magic and its limitations is still the same, they just have more fuel to do it with.

Whereas Radiant healing + Regrowth is stacking two different abilities, making each other stronger, sort of like Mistborn with Spike can do things the same Mistborn without spike could not do.

11 hours ago, Nameless* said:

 And Wyndle believes that Lift could heal Shardblades wounds with regrowth, and Nale actually did do it to Szeth with a Fabrial.

Radiants already heal Shardblade wounds, the key is whether they could heal having spine severed (which presumably severs connection to Physical realm).

Additionally, we don't know how Nale used the Regrowth fabrial, or how it works. Perhaps he needed to infuse both the body and soul to heal him (and the healing was not fully successful).

Quote

F-good can be better, so I don’t think there should be any problem in a Fullborn healing their Shardblade wounds.

I don't F-gold is necessarily better, and I agree it can heal Shardblade wounds. What I dispute is that F-gold can heal Shardblade death.

The burned out eyes and loss of color in general suggest that whether happens is more comprehensive then just dying. E.g. if it does sever connection to the body completely, then Fullborn cannot heal that, since their Investiture comes from Physical realm, from the Metalminds.

Right now it seems to me based on what is actually seen in books, is that Sharblade to spine/head is fatal to basically everything/everyone, and only external interference can be used to save someone killed in this manner.

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

How many times do I have to say this - keep your metalminds close to your brain! Piercings, teeth, metal plates in your skull.  

Does not matter, metalminds on limbs cut with Shardblade cannot be accessed, so someone killed via Shardblade would not be able to access any metalminds, no matter where on their body. Feruchemists/Fullborns soul is no longer in the body, so metalminds are no longer accessible to them. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91/#e813)
 

Edited April 5, 2023 by therunner
Edit: added a section, then realized the section is off-base so removed it again :/

[NameIess]

16 hours ago, therunner said:

But Fullborn can fundamentally still only do what regular Feruchemist can, they just have more stores to do it with. So they can heal quicker (not caring about loss), and more grevious wounds, but if there is some fundamental limitation, then they won't be able to bypass it (e.g. limit on storage rate, F-steel and friction, etc.). Magic and its limitations is still the same, they just have more fuel to do it with.

Whereas Radiant healing + Regrowth is stacking two different abilities, making each other stronger, sort of like Mistborn with Spike can do things the same Mistborn without spike could not do.

F-gold has never been shown to have a limitation. Normal Radiant healing seems to have a limit given how difficult it is to force Stormlight to heal Shardblade wounds, but tapping massive quantities of F-gold should not be a problem. Stacking Radiant healing and Regrowth might make healing abilities stronger like Mistborn with spikes, but the difference between Feruchemy and Allomancy is that Feruchemy has no cap. If powerful enough healing could heal a Shardblade to the head/upper spine, then F-gold can almost certainly do it. The only healing power I'd put above a Fullborn with unlimited metal's F-gold would be a Returned's Divine Breath.

16 hours ago, therunner said:

Radiants already heal Shardblade wounds, the key is whether they could heal having spine severed (which presumably severs connection to Physical realm).

Additionally, we don't know how Nale used the Regrowth fabrial, or how it works. Perhaps he needed to infuse both the body and soul to heal him (and the healing was not fully successful).

I just now remembered that Nale didn't actually heal Szeth after a Shardblade killed him. Storming retcons. Although this WoB does say that the original is still canon:

Quote

BlackYeti

If you remember from the original version of Words of Radiance, Kaladin rammed a Shardblade through Szeth’s chest, after which Nale found Szeth and healed him with a fabrial. However in Edgedancer Lift tries to heal a girl who had also had a Shardblade rammed through her chest, and it didn’t work. Wyndle then explains that since she was killed by Shardblade, she cannot be healed at all, unless she is healed right after it happened. Since Nale was obviously not with Szeth and Kaladin to heal him immediately, this appears to be a contradiction.

Therefore, either Nale has some way to remotely heal someone (of which we have no evidence), "right after" is being used very loosely, or when Brandon changed the scene to have Szeth fall to his death instead, he also changed the rules governing what can or can’t be healed.

If so, what other rules could have been changed at the same time? Is there some additional significance to the change in wording from fabrial to Surgebinding for instance? Moreover this would be a somewhat significant precedent that Brandon is setting, and I’m not sure what to make of it.

Peter Ahlstrom

The way it worked in WoR's first draft is still canonical. There are subtle things that make the two situations different.

Miscellaneous 2016 (Nov. 22, 2016)

Regardless, Wyndle told Lift in Edgedancer that she would have been able to heal a girl killed by a Shardblade if she'd attempted to do so immediately after it happened, and didn't mention any such technique.

16 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't F-gold is necessarily better, and I agree it can heal Shardblade wounds. What I dispute is that F-gold can heal Shardblade death.

The burned out eyes and loss of color in general suggest that whether happens is more comprehensive then just dying. E.g. if it does sever connection to the body completely, then Fullborn cannot heal that, since their Investiture comes from Physical realm, from the Metalminds.

Right now it seems to me based on what is actually seen in books, is that Sharblade to spine/head is fatal to basically everything/everyone, and only external interference can be used to save someone killed in this manner.

While the Fullborn is constantly compounding the infinite metals that they have, using either Duraluminum or compounded Nicrosil to enhance the burn rate to levels higher than TLR, their soul is invested more than enough to heal the connection, so long as it is capable of doing so. Given that a Regrowth Fabrial can do it, I think its safe to say a Fullborn can as well.