Could an Inquisitor Be Controlled Like a Kandra or Koloss?

[Longshot97]

The title says it all.

To elaborate, I'm wondering if it is at all possible to use Emotional Allomancy to control an Inquisitor through the cracks of their Spiritweb, given that we have never seen it done before.

Granted, there are some good reasons for this.

1. Practically no one knew about this "Hemalurgic backdoor" and the ones that did couldn't and/or wouldn't try it.
2. By the time this was discovered, Ruin had escaped, and no one could contest a Shard's hold.
3. Inquisitors had access to Allomantic copper, possibly multiple times over, which was an excellent counter.
4. Inquisitors have sapience and willpower, and if the Allomancer fails, Adonalsium have mercy upon them.

I'm wondering if I have some of the facts wrong, or if there's a reason all its own for this to never happen.

Otherwise, to cover all my bases, let's assume a group of several Soothers (or Rioters, but for the sake of argument, Soothers) with several Nicrobursts got together Post-Catacendre, and tried to overwhelm Marsh's copper and willpower with a combined Push. Excluding divine intervention, is there any reason this would not work?

Edited March 27, 2023 by Longshot97

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Longshot97 said:

Otherwise, to cover all my bases, let's assume a group of several Soothers (or Rioters, but for the sake of argument, Soothers) with several Nicrobursts got together Post-Catacendre, and tried to overwhelm Marsh's copper and willpower with a combined Push. Excluding divine intervention, is there any reason this would not work?

Hard to say, probably depends on Marsh's mental stability. But he has copper (and duralumin) anyway, so it would help him a lot to counter it, or just be immune to it. But in theory, this should be possible.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

[Duxredux]

Yeah, based on the OP and top response, it should be theoretically possible with enough Allomancers but practically nigh-impossible.

Aside from Duralumin and Copper, Marsh also has Inquisitor Steelsight, Tin, F-Steel, and is likely the best Seeker on Scadrial with his double A-Bronze. He's also really good at moving unnoticed despite literally looking like Death. Catching him in a trap with enough Allomancers to pull this off would be insanely difficult. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he had Aluminum lining for his hood, cloak, or nightcap just in case a group (particularly the Set) tried this kind of stunt.

@Nogo, if you just cruised through the responses, read the hidden quote in the top comment by alder24. That's Brandon talking about the mechanics of emotional Allomancy controlling Hemalurgic creations in The Hero of Ages Annotations.

[Longshot97]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Hard to say, probably depends on Marsh's mental stability. But he has copper (and duralumin) anyway, so it would help him a lot to counter it, or just be immune to it. But in theory, this should be possible.

Excellent point about duralumin, complete forgot about that.

[NerdyAarakocra]

Yes, it would work. Ruin's control over Inquisitors works by the same principle as the Emotional Allomancy backdoor.

Edited March 27, 2023 by NerdyAarakocra

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

Any sentient creature pierced with a hemalurgic spike can be controlled, if they have enough spikes. For humans, I believe the limit is five before control is possible, and inquisitors have far more than that. 

[Trusk'our]

13 hours ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

Any sentient creature pierced with a hemalurgic spike can be controlled, if they have enough spikes. For humans, I believe the limit is five before control is possible, and inquisitors have far more than that. 

Mr. Suit mentions in BoM that you can have three Hemalurgic spikes before external forces can control you.

18 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Otherwise, to cover all my bases, let's assume a group of several Soothers (or Rioters, but for the sake of argument, Soothers) with several Nicrobursts got together Post-Catacendre, and tried to overwhelm Marsh's copper and willpower with a combined Push. Excluding divine intervention, is there any reason this would not work?

We saw the Lord Ruler have barely any effect on Vin and Kelsier with Emotional Allomancy despite the fact he was significantly more powerful than them (Granted, that was a blanket Soothing).

The same principle should apply to Steel Inquisitors, so even if some touch on their emotions seeped through Marsh's Coppercloud, I doubt that it would be enough to control him. Even with duralumin or nicrosil added to the mix, it may not be enough, at least not if they want to maintain control for very long, and the Allomancers in question would soon be having a very, very bad day.

[Immortal Platypus]

Well, if he's not burning copper at that time (unlikely, but possible, like at night when he's sleeping) he could probably do it. And the more spikes you have, the easier you are to control. I don't know if that means you are more susceptible to emotional Allomancy or not, but it might get through a coppercloud even so. TLM:

Spoiler

do people think you could do it with concentrated/purified (whichever it is) Dor? We see someone (not gonna say who, but if you've read it, you probably know who it is ) use it to turn into an Elantrian, which would have to use a TON of power. So I'd think with Dor, it's possible.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Being of Cacophony

[Trusk'our]

4 hours ago, Being of Cacophony said:

Well, if he's not burning copper at that time (unlikely, but possible, like at night when he's sleeping) he could probably do it. And the more spikes you have, the easier you are to control. I don't know if that means you are more susceptible to emotional Allomancy or not, but it might get through a coppercloud even so. TLM:

 

Hey, uh, just wanted to point out that your spoiler is inside a quote tag, not a spoiler.

[Immortal Platypus]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hey, uh, just wanted to point out that your spoiler is inside a quote tag, not a spoiler.

thanks. I've been spending too much time in RP forums  

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, Being of Cacophony said:

thanks. I've been spending too much time in RP forums  

Lol, anytime! 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 3/28/2023 at 10:01 AM, Being of Cacophony said:

Well, if he's not burning copper at that time (unlikely, but possible, like at night when he's sleeping) he could probably do it. And the more spikes you have, the easier you are to control. I don't know if that means you are more susceptible to emotional Allomancy or not, but it might get through a coppercloud even so. 

In Era 1, Vin felt strong (TLR's) EA through a coppercloud due to her single spike. I doubt that they could take control quikly enough to survive, but it is theoretically possible, even with his copperclouds.

[Immortal Platypus]

On 4/7/2023 at 0:18 PM, IlstrawberrySeed said:

In Era 1, Vin felt strong (TLR's) EA through a coppercloud due to her single spike. I doubt that they could take control quikly enough to survive, but it is theoretically possible, even with his copperclouds.

well, TLR didn't have hemalurgic spikes. (I think. Did he?) just spiked his metalminds into himself.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Being of Cacophony said:

well, TLR didn't have hemalurgic spikes. (I think. Did he?)

Hard to say, once Brandon said he used hemalurgy in a way that makes me think he had a spike, but later Brandon can't remember if Rashek had a spike.

Spoiler

Darxbane

In an annotation from book one, it is mentioned that The Lord Ruler needed all three magic systems in order to do what he did. I always assumed that it meant his Hemalurgy enhanced his Allomancy. Did Marsh get a double power, or is the Feruchemy-Allomancy combo enough? (a sidebar to this question is whether or not stacking abilities is possible through Hemalurgy)

Brandon Sanderson

He used Hemalurgy to pull off his most dramatic effects. Marsh didn't need them, but it makes things much easier.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Why in the world would the Lord Ruler spike himself?

Brandon Sanderson

...Because he needed to give himself the powers that he didn't have. He could have done it like-- gained the knowledge but the power was gone so fast he actually needed to-- Well no no no, the spikes, the spikes, the spikes. So, it doesn't matter if he was spiked because he was hiding the metals inside himself so people couldn't Push or Pull on them. That's the real reason he was doing that. Does that make sense?

Questioner

No.

Brandon Sanderson

Metal that's inside of him--

Questioner

Ruin influenced him, what did the spiking do?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the metals that were stuck through him were so people couldn’t Push or Pull on them. If they were outside his body people would know he was a Feruchemist. Which is the very thing he was-- so he would stick the metals inside of himself to hide them.

Questioner

And he did that as Hemalurgic spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd have to go back and look because-- Lord Ruler is he spiked or has he just got--

Isaac Stewart

I thought he was... spiked but I can't remem--

Brandon Sanderson

You're asking something that I wrote 12 years ago.

Isaac Stewart

Peter, was the Lord Ruler spiked?

Brandon Sanderson

Lord Ruler was spiked, right?  Or is it just--

Peter Ahlstrom

I don't think so.

Brandon Sanderson

--piereced with metalminds, right? They're not actual spikes, just metalminds.

And I want to ask the Sharders on there [the recorder] about that Lord Ruler question, because I didn’t think he was spiked but--

Isaac Stewart

I think I recall him having the bands with spikes in them?

Footnote: Brandon has previously stated that the Lord Ruler did in fact have Hemalurgic spikes.
Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

[Nogo]

So, I cruised through the responses and didn't see this...

The Lord Ruler controlled his Inquisitioners.   At the time the inquisitioners had only a pre-approved set (or different sets, not sure) of spikes.

Post-Lord Ruler... Ruin was able to control Marsh (with his kazillion spikes including a bunch a feurch spikes).  But that was Ruin not a mortal. 

Marsh is so powerful that amount of spikes has to be a hinderance to the attempter to control vs. him just becoming possessed.  I can't really imagine a situation where the new, extra spiked/ protected inquisitors could be controlled through emotional allomancy.  It just seems off to me, though I realize that I don't have a good argument here against your nicrosil / soother ambush. It just feels like it wouldn't do crap to Marsh.   

[Immortal Platypus]

13 minutes ago, Nogo said:

Marsh is so powerful that amount of spikes has to be a hinderance to the attempter to control vs. him just becoming possessed

I don't get what you're saying. Can you elaborate?

[Nogo]

27 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

I don't get what you're saying. Can you elaborate?

I'm saying that even though having spikes makes you vulnerable to emotional allomancy I am not convinced that more spikes makes someone more vulnerable to anyone except Ruin (or using Ruin).  It seems to me that the more spikes and the more variety of spikes that you have makes you harder to control versus easier.  And honestly I have zero evidence of this.  I haven't gone back and researched any of this.  There was never a real action that proves this... but allomancers could control Kandra easier than Inquisitors... because Inquisitors have more spikes limiting human control. But Ruin could control inquisitors better than Kandra because Inquisitors have more spikes.  If you think about it, allomancers are Preservation and Ruin is, well, Ruin, so the inverse relationship of controlling spiked individuals sorta makes sense. 

A huge flaw in my argument is that if that were the case... than Vin should have been able to control Elend's crazy mistborn brother (why can't I think of his name!?!?!?) and Vin would have felt a weird sensation (like when she hit Ten-Soon with soothing) whenever Breeze or Kelsier or whoever else used emotional allomancy on her.

And then there's all the Era2 piercings (spikes, whatever) and that goes down even more of a rabbit hole.   In the end, I still stand my ground that I don't think a mistborn even with a duraluminum push and Marsh without metals would be able to control Marsh like a Kolos.  

[Trusk'our]

On 4/20/2023 at 8:55 PM, Nogo said:

I'm saying that even though having spikes makes you vulnerable to emotional allomancy I am not convinced that more spikes makes someone more vulnerable to anyone except Ruin (or using Ruin).  It seems to me that the more spikes and the more variety of spikes that you have makes you harder to control versus easier.  And honestly I have zero evidence of this.  I haven't gone back and researched any of this.  There was never a real action that proves this... but allomancers could control Kandra easier than Inquisitors... because Inquisitors have more spikes limiting human control. But Ruin could control inquisitors better than Kandra because Inquisitors have more spikes.  If you think about it, allomancers are Preservation and Ruin is, well, Ruin, so the inverse relationship of controlling spiked individuals sorta makes sense. 

A huge flaw in my argument is that if that were the case... than Vin should have been able to control Elend's crazy mistborn brother (why can't I think of his name!?!?!?) and Vin would have felt a weird sensation (like when she hit Ten-Soon with soothing) whenever Breeze or Kelsier or whoever else used emotional allomancy on her.

And then there's all the Era2 piercings (spikes, whatever) and that goes down even more of a rabbit hole.   In the end, I still stand my ground that I don't think a mistborn even with a duraluminum push and Marsh without metals would be able to control Marsh like a Kolos.  

A conversation involving Hemalurgy's mechanics has be started again- I hath been summoned.

It is stated in HoA Epigraphs 66 and 67 that more spikes makes a Hemalurgic construct or human more susceptible to all forms of control; more spikes, more holes in the Spiritweb for foreign Investiture to creep in and exert their influence.

Quote

The Hero of Ages/Epigraphs - The Coppermind - 17th Shard

Inquisitors had little chance of resisting Ruin. They had more spikes than any of his other Hemalurgic creations, and that put them completely under his domination.

Yes, it would have taken a man of supreme will to resist Ruin even slightly while bearing the spikes of an Inquisitor.

Koloss also had little chance of breaking free. Four spikes, and their diminished mental capacity, left them fairly easy to dominate. Only in the throes of a blood frenzy did they have any form of autonomy.

Four spikes also made them easier for Allomancers to control. In our time, it required a duralumin Push to take control of a kandra. Koloss, however, could be taken by a determined regular Push, particularly when they were frenzied.

It is also worth noting that Elend's brother, Zane, would not have been susceptible to an Allomancer's or even Ruin's complete control; he had only one spike, which is nowhere near enough to open one's Spiritweb to being dominated by another, no matter how powerful they may be.

BoM spoilers...

Spoiler

Mr. Suit mentions to Wax that he can only have three spikes before Harmony can control him. That means that a human would have to bear at least four Hemalurgic spikes to be vulnerable to being controlled by an external source.

Whispers, particularly if from a being the person bearing the spike has a strong Connection to (such as Ruin through their spike's Intent) can get through, manifesting itself as Zane's supposed insanity.

And as for why Marsh was only able to be controlled by Vin after she drew upon the Mists, he was currently being controlled by Ruin at the time; I believe that this would have greatly limited another being's ability to dominate such an individual, as they would have had to overwhelm Ruin's direct influence.

Hope this helps out a bit 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Trusk'our