17 at the Shattering? (discussion)

[Eahlendell]

Hey!

I am currently rereading both stress and TLM on a beautiful beach in Egypt ( too much lore to digest in one go)

I am drawn back to the comment where about implied that he and sixteen other people chattered Ado as they could not trust him to make his own decisions.

My head cannon has always been (since Dawnshard anyway) that there would have been twenty people in total, 4 for the Dawnshard and 16 for each Shard. I am aware that Hoid was offered a shard and did not take this up. I wonder why there were seventeen people originally, did one person never intend to take up a shard? Was there an additional purpose for that person? I just think it’s random that they had one extra person lying around to take up the refused shard. I am wondering if Hoid declined the shard before they attempted the shattering but still wanted to be involved in the attempt.

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated? I feel I have missed a link somewhere. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

It’s entirely possible that some of the Shards took possession of the Dawnshards. Incredibly dangerous, but entirely possible. I have a few ideas where the other two could have gone, but they’re not based on much as I don’t hunt through things for theories so much as just read WoBs.

As for which Shard Hoid was supposed to take / who wasn’t supposed to take one, I think we still are unsure. Although there’s a few Shards we know Hoid wouldn’t have taken (ie Whimsy).

[TheoreticalMagic]

I honestly can't remember, but do we know for sure that Hoid refused to take up one of the Shards as they actually exist now? What I mean by that is, we've always been told that there's different configurations the Shards could have shattered in. Was the Shattering perhaps originally intended to shatter Adonalsium into seventeen Shards, one for each, but at the moment of the Shattering or during the process, Hoid changed his mind or refused to take up a Shard, so some kind of Cognitive blowback of that Shattered Adonalsium into just sixteen different Shards instead, one for each of the Vessels willing and prepared to take up a Shard?

[Ashbringer he/him]

42 minutes ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I honestly can't remember, but do we know for sure that Hoid refused to take up one of the Shards as they actually exist now? What I mean by that is, we've always been told that there's different configurations the Shards could have shattered in. Was the Shattering perhaps originally intended to shatter Adonalsium into seventeen Shards, one for each, but at the moment of the Shattering or during the process, Hoid changed his mind or refused to take up a Shard, so some kind of Cognitive blowback of that Shattered Adonalsium into just sixteen different Shards instead, one for each of the Vessels willing and prepared to take up a Shard?

He was specifically offered one of the Shards. One of the newer ones, because we know it was one we hadn't seen as of... oh 2015 was 8 years ago. Oh. Well, from before the RoW shards. Maybe a few others.

 

Spoiler

The Only Joe (paraphrased)

Was Hoid offered one of the Shards we know about?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You know, I can't remember which Shards I've shown you, Wait, no I haven't shown you that one.

Firefight Portland signing (Jan. 16, 2015)

 

Paladin Brewer

We know that Hoid was offered a Shard and turned it down. Was he offered a specific Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

He was. There is one of the Shards that he would've-- yeah.

Paladin Brewer

Would he have been the 17th person or did someone take his place?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Someone took his place.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

[TheoreticalMagic]

Ah gotcha, thanks.

[StormingTexan he/him]

18 hours ago, Eahlendell said:

I am wondering if Hoid declined the shard before they attempted the shattering but still wanted to be involved in the attempt.

According to this WoB it was not before. I think there were 17 people there so we would have a good name for this fan site . No really it is a good question why there were 17 people there. I have a suspicion that Hoid was not really meant to be there. There are other WoB asking about Hoid's involvement and none of the answers are really definitive in the regard that he was part of the original plan or actively involved. My guess at this point is he was more of a witness to the event (either with or without the knowledge of the 16) and something happened during the shattering that gave him an opportunity to take a shard but he did not.

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

Hoid was once offered a Shard, but he refused it, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Was it right after the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. It was during the events. I wouldn't necessarily say "right after", it was during this process. I would say this is a RAFO before I finish writing at that time. (Not sure if I understood the last sentence right, but I think that's what he said)

Questioner (paraphrased)

And who took this Shard instead?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

We know the Dawnshards were involved in the Shattering, right?  We know Hoid was a Dawnshard.  We know Hoid was present at the Shattering.

Do we know whether Hoid was a Dawnshard at the Shattering?

I feel like I'm playing Cosmere Clue:  "Hoid, with the Dawnshard, at the Shattering!"

Edited January 18, 2023 by AquaRegia

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I feel like I'm playing Cosmere Clue:  "Hoid, with the Dawnshard, at the Shattering!"

To be fair using “at the Shattering” as a clue answer would be like saying “Colonel Mustard, with the candlestick, at the scene of the murder” rather than where the murder/Shattering actually takes place, assumedly “on Yolen”.

[drunkenbotanist]

Can we actually imagine though the room you kill god in

 

Like presumably Brandon has that scene in his head or did at one point.

 

I really wonder what that is going to be like

 

The 16, with the dawnshards in the ---- secret lab/basement/dungeon/roof of massive temple in a thunderstorm/in the cognitive realm so everything is weirdly colored --- very excited to see what he does with this in like 20 years

 

[gremlin303]

I don’t think we know enough about Dawnshards or the Shattering to make any assumptions or headcanons about them at this point. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by gremlin303

[lacrossedeamon]

On 1/25/2023 at 11:56 PM, drunkenbotanist said:

Can we actually imagine though the room you kill god in

 

Like presumably Brandon has that scene in his head or did at one point.

 

I really wonder what that is going to be like

 

The 16, with the dawnshards in the ---- secret lab/basement/dungeon/roof of massive temple in a thunderstorm/in the cognitive realm so everything is weirdly colored --- very excited to see what he does with this in like 20 years

 

Originally the Shattered Plain were going to be on Yolen so I assume that was where it happened in the first draft. And because of that I assume the Shattered Plains are now where Honor was Splintered.

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/11/2023 at 8:14 PM, lacrossedeamon said:

Originally the Shattered Plain were going to be on Yolen so I assume that was where it happened in the first draft. And because of that I assume the Shattered Plains are now where Honor was Splintered.

 I think the old Dragonsteel was pre-Shattering (was going to lead up to the Shattering), so the Shattering couldn't have created the Plains which already existed at the beginning of Dragonsteel.

[lacrossedeamon]

6 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

 I think the old Dragonsteel was pre-Shattering (was going to lead up to the Shattering), so the Shattering couldn't have created the Plains which already existed at the beginning of Dragonsteel.

That... is true. Huh. I wonder what the Shattering in DSP was going to be then.

[The Sovereign he/him]

Just something to consider regarding Hoid being offered a Shard:

Quote

Theofficetroll (paraphrased)

If Hoid were tempted by a Shard, which one would it be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Endowment.

SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013)

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by The Sovereign

[Leuthie]

I think you all are making the process of killing god too simple. If you've read Wheel of Time: 

Spoiler

After being denied help by female Aes Sedai, Lews Therin attacked the Dark One anyway. He took the Hundred Companions (113 male Aes Sedai) to do this. He also took 10,000 soldiers. There were huge losses and ramifications that affected the entire world for hundreds of years.

If Brandon makes the Shattering into 16 people carrying 4 McGuffins, it will be a horrible piece of Storytelling. 16 people might have grabbed Shards, but the Shattering has to be a much more complicated and messy affair than that.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

I think you all are making the process of killing god too simple. If you've read Wheel of Time: 

  Reveal hidden contents

After being denied help by female Aes Sedai, Lews Therin attacked the Dark One anyway. He took the Hundred Companions (113 male Aes Sedai) to do this. He also took 10,000 soldiers. There were huge losses and ramifications that affected the entire world for hundreds of years.

If Brandon makes the Shattering into 16 people carrying 4 McGuffins, it will be a horrible piece of Storytelling. 16 people might have grabbed Shards, but the Shattering has to be a much more complicated and messy affair than that.

Does it?

One guy with a super weapon killed Rayse and took his shard.

So by that definition 17 guys with 4 superweapons is several magnitudes of Overkill.

[gremlin303]

13 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I think you all are making the process of killing god too simple. If you've read Wheel of Time: 

  Reveal hidden contents

After being denied help by female Aes Sedai, Lews Therin attacked the Dark One anyway. He took the Hundred Companions (113 male Aes Sedai) to do this. He also took 10,000 soldiers. There were huge losses and ramifications that affected the entire world for hundreds of years.

If Brandon makes the Shattering into 16 people carrying 4 McGuffins, it will be a horrible piece of Storytelling. 16 people might have grabbed Shards, but the Shattering has to be a much more complicated and messy affair than that.

I agree with this. Too many people assuming it was just 17 people wielding the dawnshards killed big A and then they took the shards. No way it was as clean and simple as that. We barely even know what Dawnshards are, we can’t make any assumptions here. 

[Leuthie]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Does it?

One guy with a super weapon killed Rayse and took his shard.

So by that definition 17 guys with 4 superweapons is several magnitudes of Overkill.

The superweapon did very little to the Shard. It killed the Vessel. We have 2 examples of Shards that have been altered: Dominion and Devotion on Sel, and Ambition near Threnody and elsewhere (chunks were ripped off in the Threnody system and Ambition fled to eventually be fully Splintered)

Both cases most likely required 2 full Shards to accomplish the deeds. Both cases probably took hundreds of years to complete. And those are "just" Shards, incomplete entities with obvious vulnerabilities defined by their limited Intents. Adonalsium was the complete entity with the full set of Intents. So maybe A had the full set of vulnerabilities? Maybe it was even easier to take down than a Shard. Who knows?

However, 17 guys and 4 McGuffins is a very poor narrative choice to take out the entity that is 16x as powerful as the current gods. No matter the relative "power level" of Dawnshards, the "human" element of the story needs more than that. 

Then again, millions of people against a god makes no sense either. The 10,000 soldiers that Lews Therin brought with him weren't there to attack the Dark One. They were there because the Dark One fought back with his own followers. The fight to Shatter Adonalsium probably includes a war against people that didn't think god should be destroyed.

[lacrossedeamon]

On 2/20/2023 at 4:24 PM, The Sovereign said:

Just something to consider regarding Hoid being offered a Shard:

 

So are we thinking this is because Hoid has a massive schlong or because he doesn't but wants one?

[The Sovereign he/him]

10 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

So are we thinking this is because Hoid has a massive schlong or because he doesn't but wants one?

[+Child of Hodor]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:41 AM, Leuthie said:

The superweapon did very little to the Shard. It killed the Vessel. We have 2 examples of Shards that have been altered: Dominion and Devotion on Sel, and Ambition near Threnody and elsewhere (chunks were ripped off in the Threnody system and Ambition fled to eventually be fully Splintered)

Both cases most likely required 2 full Shards to accomplish the deeds. Both cases probably took hundreds of years to complete. And those are "just" Shards, incomplete entities with obvious vulnerabilities defined by their limited Intents. Adonalsium was the complete entity with the full set of Intents. So maybe A had the full set of vulnerabilities? Maybe it was even easier to take down than a Shard. Who knows?

However, 17 guys and 4 McGuffins is a very poor narrative choice to take out the entity that is 16x as powerful as the current gods. No matter the relative "power level" of Dawnshards, the "human" element of the story needs more than that. 

Then again, millions of people against a god makes no sense either. The 10,000 soldiers that Lews Therin brought with him weren't there to attack the Dark One. They were there because the Dark One fought back with his own followers. The fight to Shatter Adonalsium probably includes a war against people that didn't think god should be destroyed.

My question is why 16 (or 17) and not 4? One for each Dawnshard. What were the others doing?  

The Dawnshards are what allowed them to do the Shattering, but they can't do much without an invested art. Did they need so many people because they needed a bunch of different invested arts to be used with the Dawnshards and no one had access to that many arts individually? Did they rapidly hand off the Dawnshards amongst each other, do their part of the Shattering and then hand it off again? That's pretty goofy. 

Maybe they all worked together simultaneously through the Dawnshards? The Dawnshards could make use of what the non-Dawnshards were doing, something like that. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Child of Hodor

[Koloss17 She/They]

Keep in mind: we had Hoid, who we know had a dawnshard, and 16 others. Given that Hoid was seated to take a shard, AND had a dawnshard, it wouldn’t be that much of a stretch to assume that some other folks had a dawnshard and became a vessel.

We are also sort of operating on the assumption that they knew Adonalisium would split into 16 pieces from the get-go. What if they could split it up into any number of pieces? What if there was initially supposed to be 17 shards, and Hoid dipped out, leaving only 16?

[cometaryorbit]

I think the people who would become Vessels were likely a key part of the process. I don't think it was four people with Dawnshards and thirteen spectators standing around who happened to grab a Shard when Adonalsium Shattered.

Khriss says in SH that the original sixteen ripped Adonalsium apart, and Dawnshard uses similar phrasing - I imagine that as meaning that the actual Shattering process was based on attaching part of Adonalsium to each of the sixteen.

I'm sure there was much more to the entire events, but I think the 17 were the only ones directly involved in the actual mechanics of the Shattering itself (as opposed to preparation, or any other conflicts in the lead-up to it or the aftermath).

I think the aftermath was extremely destructive, given that Yolen is apparently mostly lost and has a very small current population. The entire red Starbelt/Scar/Taln's Scar might be a wound from the Shattering.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Are we sure Hoid didn't have all 4 dawnshards at the time of the shattering? Even if it was just a dump from those picking up shards who didn't want to accidentally use them?

If Endowment is the pinnacle of what Hoid would have taken, what else might have Hoid have taken? I expect Endowment to be one of the most free shards, the intent being giving stuff away. Preservation is definetly out, as is Honor. (Unless Hoid new how to use the shard's intent against itslef, vowing never to be overtaken by it's intent.) Ruin and Dominion are probably out, but I don't know enough about Devotion or Cultivation to say on those. Odium is almost certainly a no. Though why do you say no to Whimsy @Ashbringer? Depending on how Whimsy works, Hoid could have some whimsy that doesn't interfere with his plans. Ambition and Autonomy are both likely swayed heavily based on what exactly he wants to do.

The other thing is we can try to figure out who would offer their shard. I have trouble desiding wether the lovers would offer, because then they can be shard+avatar, or if they wouldn't want to have that power decrepency. Also, Rayse definetly wouldn't, so that leaves endowment; who we know didn't; ambition, whimsy, autonomy, & maybe D/D.

Also, I know I don't have all the shards on here, but I thought we knew all but 1. I cannot think of the rest, so let me know who I missed.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed

[Ashbringer he/him]

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Though why do you say no to Whimsy @Ashbringer? Depending on how Whimsy works, Hoid could have some whimsy that doesn't interfere with his plans. Ambition and Autonomy are both likely swayed heavily based on what exactly he wants to do.

There's a WoB that Hoid specifically wouldn't have taken Whimsy. He enjoys whimsy, but that's not really what he's about if that makes sense.

Spoiler

ImKrypton

If there was Any shard to be offered to Hoid, it would have been this one [Whimsy].

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is far too calculating and deliberate for Whimsy. It might seem his style on the surface, but a deep dive into who he is would show that it's very much not who he is.

DeJeR

Will we ever see the world or magic system for Whimsy?

Brandon Sanderson

Some day, hopefully.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 24, 2020)

But it's also been... a very long time since I've spent thought on which Shard he would have grabbed.