Preservation sucks, any single Shard's influence is a bad thing.

[The Subsumer he/him]

In my personal opinion, Preservation gets way too much credit. Everybody treats him as the good to Ruin's evil, the Savior to Ruin's Devil. But that's just straight up not true.

What people don't really realize is pure Preservation would have sucked just as much. Nothing would ever change ever. Nothing would progress. That's why Preservation need Ruin to help him create- because just straight up creation is against his Intent. 

So my whole spiel is that Preservation is unnecessarily glorified by the people of Scadrial, who forget that he was against the emancipation of the Skaa, wanted to have the Lord Ruler rule forever, and was totally down with the tyrannical rule of the Final Empire as long as it kept things the same. Even Sazed falls to this.

I also feel that Preservation- or more accurately Harmony's preservation- isn't really preserving much at this point. Sazed has his policies on interference and he's more Preservation than Ruin, which is throwing him for a loop and he's worried about it... but is he really as unbalanced as we think? Or rather, is he unbalanced the way we think?

Anyways, this goes along with one of my personal theories: no Shard is good on its own. The Intents of the Shards are just too overbearing without anything to balance it out. The biggest planets (story wise, not in actual size) all have the influence of two Shards. Honor and Cultivation, Ruin and Preservation, Devotion and Dominion- all balancing each other out and allowing for growth. Look at one of the objectively worst (inhabited) planets to live on in the Cosmere, Threnody. What happened there? There were two Shards, then they got Odiumed and boom, scary ghost people. It's not always bad against good; rarely, if ever, is it so. But you need two Shards to have a working system.

Partnered with any other Shard but Ruin or Odium and Preservation becomes the bad guy, the one that doesn't allow for change, the one that hampers evolution. There was definitely reason for Ruin and Preservation pairing up, and it wasn't just to mitigate Ruin's power.

Thoughts?

[alder24]

Endowment seems pretty chill. 

For people of Scadrial it is understandable why they think that way. After all, for thousands of years Ruin wanted to kill them all, and only Preservation was stopping him from doing that.

It is not known if Ambition settled on Threnody. There was a battle of 3 shards there, with chunks of Ambition being thrown into Threnody. So I wouldn't say it's a good example.

I wouldn't call Roshar balanced. You know, dozens of Deslations and near human extinctions that happened there aren't really sign of "balanced" system.

But you are right. No Shard is inherently evil, and no shard is good as well.

Quote

Blightsong

Can honorspren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil despite their relationship to Tanavast or Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, because I don't call the Shards good and evil. There are no good and evil Shards in my opinion, like and so, what's evil and what's not evil- you can totally have spren that are of Honor that you would consider evil. They have free will; they are much more strictly limited in that free will than we are, because of their nature as spren. It's very hard for most spren to ever break an oath or to lie. That's just like- as manifestations of laws of nature makes it very hard for that to happen, but they can be cruel.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, The Subsumer said:

So my whole spiel is that Preservation is unnecessarily glorified by the people of Scadrial

the best way to have unequivocally good publicity - i dare say, the only way - is to have an unequivocally evil foe to oppose.

heroes become such because they act in the face of disaster and tragedy. with no disaster or tragedy, there can be no heroes.

getting killed in the process also helps. can't speak ill of the dead, and absolutely can't speak ill of those who sacrificed themselves to save others.

so, ruin wanted to destroy the world. literally. blow it up in a cloud of cosmic dust. preservation was the only thing standing against that fate.

with this premise, it doesn't matter anything else preservation does. he may have been kicking puppies every day before breakfast while turning at the camera and stating "don't mistake me guys, I'm totally not a good guy". wouldn't matter. the people of scadrial would still hail preservation as their savior who sacrificed everything to save them from ruin.

Same thing on roshar. Honor is dangerously close to fundamentalism. but odium is trying to destroy humanity (ok, he only wants to enslave them to use as cannon fodder in his next war, not much difference). Cultivation is hiding. honor died fighting odium. therefore, honor is the hero and don't you ever try telling a rosharan otherwise.

[Tglassy]

It's because none of the Shards were meant to be seperate.  They are different aspects of what is essentially God's Person.  Only because they are seperate, they lack the contects and restraint of the others.  This is summed up in the one quote about Odium:  "He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." 

Odium is passion and rage and hatred...but without a focus beyond what the Vessel decides.  It wasn't MEANT to be like that.  It was MEANT to be simply 1/16th of a part of a person.  

Honor wasn't meant to be just about oaths, but about bindings and unification.  Tanavast interpredted that as Oaths, cause oaths bind and unify.  But by itself, it just means keeping things together and not letting them divide.  That's neither good nor bad.  

Preservation is Inertia.  Ruin is Entropy.  Neither are good or evil, they just are.  Their Vessels decide what their Intent means, and can direct it to a certain extent, but in the end, the power is just the power.  

Cultivation is directed growth.  Endowment is giving power to others.  Devotion is about service, and Dominion about control.  All can be good. All can be evil.  It just depends on the Vessel.

But none of them were ever meant to be seperate from each other.  As seperate pieces, none of them are great.  Endowment gives power to newborn infants, for crying out loud, and her magic system lead to the creation of Nightblood.  When taken alone, they all fail to do what their supposed to: be gods.  

But together?  One being with the power to bind, to sustain inertia, but also to allow entropy and decay, utilizing that to direct growth.  A being who can feel passion and devotion, and who has dominion over all.  And who uses his power to lift others up, and has Mercy and Valor.  When taken altogether, you get a single being, where all the parts give context and nuance to all the others.  

Sazed has two opposing Shards, and doesn't have the right Intent while holding them. He believes himself to be Harmony, but he really shouldn't be.  Neither should he be Discord.  He should be Creation.  Cause that's what they did together.  They created a world and life and a peoples.  But he's so insistant on keeping Harmony, that it's destroying him.    

[The Subsumer he/him]

I agree with this and this is kind of where I was going with it. I really like the use of "context". None of these Shards are entirely good things on their own, they need something to balance themselves out.

18 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Their Vessels decide what their Intent means, and can direct it to a certain extent, but in the end, the power is just the power.  

That said, I don't know if I completely agree with how far you're talking about the Vessels affecting the Shard's intent; I think its quite the opposite. Knowing that Ati was a kind and good human being, I think he would have tried to view Ruin as entropy, like you're talking about- and indeed he did, at least in his own limited scope, as seen by his assurances to Vin. And we see Rayse, actively trying to deny Odium and embrace "Passion", failing miserably. I think each of the Shard's Intents are a little more ingrained than that, and the longer the Vessels hold the Shard, the more effected they are.

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I wouldn't call Roshar balanced. You know, dozens of Deslations and near human extinctions that happened there aren't really sign of "balanced" system.

Fair point, but its a little more balanced than a land of unmitigated rules, evolution, or hatred... though not by the largest margin.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I'd argue the Cosmere would be a pretty fun place if Whimsy got to influence everything unchecked. But maybe that's just me. 

[The Subsumer he/him]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I'd argue the Cosmere would be a pretty fun place if Whimsy got to influence everything unchecked. But maybe that's just me. 

I'm picturing sickeningly sweet Rainbow Magic SuperAwesome Land just slowly creeping across the Cosmere, swallowing everything into its "Fun and Perky!" embrace.

[SPECTRE120 he/him]

When My Little Pony gets added to the Cosmere

[gremlin303]

Isn’t this just fact though? The whole point of the Shards is that they are a singular intent given immense power. None of them are good. Some are more destructive than others but too much of any one thing is bad.

The major theme of the Cosmere is power corrupting, and the hubris of man daring to think they can defeat God and take his power. The power needs to be united or it’s bad for the Cosmere. 

I’m doing a terrible job at explaining this. But yes you’re right. The Shards are inherently dangerous because of their singular nature. All of them. 

[The Subsumer he/him]

Which begs the question: will dual Shards be more stable than the others... or will they be way worse?

[Duxredux he/him]

First, I will note that anything that Ruin said while trying to get Vin or Kelsier to capitulate should be taken with a grain of salt. Similarly anything that Odium said of Honor or Cultivation when trying to recruit to his side should also be taken with a grain of salt. Lastly, and perhaps an obvious statement, most Shards do have a Vessel calling the shots. Those Vessels can choose, can make plans, and can manipulate. To an extent, calling a Shard good or evil is like saying that the position of judge, manager, president, or gardener is intrinsically good or evil. They aren't - but some positions do have more options available to them that let them nuke planets compared to others.

This brings me to my second point in addressing the OP, are we talking about Preservation, the power in general, or Preservation as held by each Vessel? Because as readers I think most would say that Leras, Kelsier, and Vin as they held the power, as we judge the decisions they made, were heroes. I agree with @king of nowhere on how PR often works (public relations, not Physical Realm this time). That said, with the context of Leras, though he was not referenced by name, was praised by Sazed in the HoA epigraphs, and he had in-depth knowledge of the events leading up to the Catacendre, likely beyond what the First Generation of Kandra told him. It is of Leras that Sazed uses these words: "In Preservation's gambit, I see nobility, cleverness, and desperation." Words to describe the holder of power, not the power itself.

By nature of their powerset certain Shards will lean more towards what people will consider "evil" than others. Take Ruin, where they cannot hear the hearts of men, they can only implant their own influence. They interact the world by whispering into the minds of the insane or the spiked - not the perfectly sane and well-adjusted. Psychologically being in that position could seriously distort someone over millenia. That is a stark contrast to Preservation who hears the hearts of men but cannot speak to them until they have died. Their touch on a person literally makes them more sane and their soul more whole. One of these Shards really will have an easier time acting to benefit humanity.

As far as I know, such specific limitations have not been revealed for most of the other Shards, but they are almost certainly there. I agree that nearly any Intent taken to an extreme and to the exclusion of other Intents will have major side effects or downsides. However, details about what information each Shard has access to and the ways they can interact with the world and with people, there will be some Shards that will be able to act with more alignment to what most people would consider beneficial than others. As has been pointed out, Nalthis seems to be doing pretty well, and that's likely due to a fundamental constraint of Endowment - in that it is giving power to another. I don't know for sure, but Endowment may not be able to take power for themselves and must give power to others rather than acting freely. Shards that do not have an Intent that impells them to action may give their Vessels an easier time in reigning in effects harmful to humanity.

Lastly, I think we sometimes forget that Shards can choose to give up their power, become a Sliver, and let someone else do the job. They don't have to hold onto the power until their personality gets subsumed by the Shardic Intent (which I think is at least partially due to the psychological impact of being unable to interact with the world contrary to the Shard's Intent). We've only seen one person on screen hand over a Shard without dying in the process, but it's a valid option. Waiting around until compelled to ruin stuff wasn't the only option available to Ati. I will acknowledge that stepping away from Ruin and handing off that particular powerset to another person seems incredibly risky and a good way to get yourself killed, so there are reasons beyond just being power hungry or selfish for Ati to hold to the power for as long as he did. I'll also acknowledge that we as recipients of WoBs may know some details regarding the underpinnings of the Cosmere that even the Shards Ascended from the Shattering may not know.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

On 11/01/2023 at 10:19 PM, alder24 said:

I wouldn't call Roshar balanced. You know, dozens of Deslations and near human extinctions that happened there aren't really sign of "balanced" system.

That's Roshar after a homicidal (Shardicidal?) Shard comes into residence and makes a mess of things, triggering a generational, eternal war. Before Rayse comes, from what we know, the Dawnsingers were happy and living lives to their fullest.

On 11/01/2023 at 9:06 PM, The Subsumer said:

Anyways, this goes along with one of my personal theories: no Shard is good on its own. The Intents of the Shards are just too overbearing without anything to balance it out. The biggest planets (story wise, not in actual size) all have the influence of two Shards. Honor and Cultivation, Ruin and Preservation, Devotion and Dominion- all balancing each other out and allowing for growth.

Honestly, a fairly simple but very plausible theory. Some Shards (like Odium, although I think that particular Shard's current instability is in large part due to Rayse's power lust and wish to be the only shard) just can't work alone, but would make great co-shards. Ruin is a prime example of this. All he wants is destruction, so how could anything constrcutive ever come out of that? His pact with Preservation shows that Ruin can be channeled into something positive, but Preservation might have just been too antithetical to Ruin's Intent for that to have ever worked out. They can create together, sure, but Preservation would never be happy until the things they made could last eternally, and Ruin would never be happy until everything they made was destroyed, so they would both only ever be half satisfied. Their amalgamation as Harmony demonstrates this well, since once these powers are merged, their contrary Intents make their Vessel impotent.

Ruin and Cultivation, however? They both represent change in a way. If they worked together, they could very easily settle on an evolutionary pact. Constantly in an "Out with the old, in with the new" cycle, quite literally a survival of the fittest situation, only taken to the extreme. I could see a planet with those two very quickly becoming the most advanced civilization of all. Both Shards would be happy, Cultivation, who herself acknowledges that for improvement to be made, things need to be pruned and guided, gets Cultivated, sophisticated life, and Ruin gets to claim the vast majority of said life, constantly devouring the weak and chasing those that adapt further and further into advancement and progression. Particularly on a planet like Roshar, where there's a massive, pre-existing natural cataclysm that could be harnessed to achieve this goal. If the two were combined, the Hybrid could end up being just "Change", which is one hell of an exploitable Intent, since it has no limits or requirements past "The status quo must change", which can always be for the better.

As for a Shard like Odium, he's a little harder to contain, but again, I think this is in large part because of Rayse. If a different Vessel had taken up Odium (one who didn't have the specific plan of killing all other Shards), they could have been paired down with someone like Mercy, or maybe even Endowment, who could temper him and direct him to more constructive directions, like Preservation with Ruin.

But I do think that Odium is a bit of a special case, given his particularly directionless Intent. He doesn't just think it's his duty to bring about entropy like Ruin (which can be applied in beneficial ways, like providing incentive for evolution), he actively hates everything and everyone. Even if he got paired down with someone with a complementary Intent, the Shard would eventually overpower the Vessel and end up becoming evil (though not necessarily Shardicidal evil, just wanton destruction evil).

I think the best course of action would have just been for the 15 other Shards to collectively bind and imprison Odium as soon as he Ascended, trapping him like Preservation does Ruin, or how Honor evetually does to Odium himself. Odium never gets a chance to get used to the power and how to use it, so he's unable to fight back. If the other 15 do it right, they should be able to manage it without any harm to themselves, since they would be spreading any potential damage out between themselves. Or even better, make him vow to never take any action against another Shard, no matter what. With 15 Shards threatening to Splinter him if he doesn't, He'd be forced to agree.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's Roshar after a homicidal (Shardicidal?) Shard comes into residence and makes a mess of things, triggering a generational, eternal war. Before Rayse comes, from what we know, the Dawnsingers were happy and living lives to their fullest.

For more than 7000 years out of around 10000 years since the Shattering, Odium was present on Roshar, immediately pushing people into multi-generational genocide. Most of Roshar’s shardic history is with Odium being there. And Odium was given permission to settle in the system by Honor and Cultivation - which suggests they were both willing to sacrifice people of Roshar just to trap Odium there. Not a balance system.

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Ruin and Cultivation, however? They both represent change in a way. If they worked together, they could very easily settle on an evolutionary pact. Constantly in an "Out with the old, in with the new" cycle, quite literally a survival of the fittest situation, only taken to the extreme. I could see a planet with those two very quickly becoming the most advanced civilization of all. Both Shards would be happy, Cultivation, who herself acknowledges that for improvement to be made, things need to be pruned and guided, gets Cultivated, sophisticated life, and Ruin gets to claim the vast majority of said life, constantly devouring the weak and chasing those that adapt further and further into advancement and progression. Particularly on a planet like Roshar, where there's a massive, pre-existing natural cataclysm that could be harnessed to achieve this goal. If the two were combined, the Hybrid could end up being just "Change", which is one hell of an exploitable Intent, since it has no limits or requirements past "The status quo must change", which can always be for the better.

Yes, they would be fitting together. That’s a great analysis of yours. "Evolution" would be a fitting name for that combination.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

As for a Shard like Odium, he's a little harder to contain, but again, I think this is in large part because of Rayse. If a different Vessel had taken up Odium (one who didn't have the specific plan of killing all other Shards), they could have been paired down with someone like Mercy, or maybe even Endowment, who could temper him and direct him to more constructive directions, like Preservation with Ruin.

It's really hard to say if there is a Vessel capable of resisting Odium alone. Ati afterall was a kind and generous man and we all know how he ended. The only way to tamper Odium is to Ascend with a second Shard - for this new Vessel is needed and it needs to be done quite fast, as every Vessel will eventually succumb to Shard's overwhelming intent.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

But I do think that Odium is a bit of a special case, given his particularly directionless Intent. He doesn't just think it's his duty to bring about entropy like Ruin (which can be applied in beneficial ways, like providing incentive for evolution), he actively hates everything and everyone. Even if he got paired down with someone with a complementary Intent, the Shard would eventually overpower the Vessel and end up becoming evil (though not necessarily Shardicidal evil, just wanton destruction evil).

Not necessarily. I see the pairing of Honor and Odium that could result in a directional hate - Shard of War would direct the hate against their enemies, while Shards like Justice might direct it against those who have broken their promises and oaths, bringing them a divine punishment. It’s not perfect in both cases but manageable at least. This will depend on how equal are powers of both Shards and the mindset of their new Vessel. 

It's really interesting to see if Taravangian will continue Rayse attempts to redefine Odium's intent into Passion, if yes how successful will he be at that. Fully changing Odium to Passion might partially solve some issues with this Shard.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think the best course of action would have just been for the 15 other Shards to collectively bind and imprison Odium as soon as he Ascended, trapping him like Preservation does Ruin, or how Honor evetually does to Odium himself. Odium never gets a chance to get used to the power and how to use it, so he's unable to fight back. If the other 15 do it right, they should be able to manage it without any harm to themselves, since they would be spreading any potential damage out between themselves. Or even better, make him vow to never take any action against another Shard, no matter what. With 15 Shards threatening to Splinter him if he doesn't, He'd be forced to agree.

Which resulted in the death of Leras and Splintering of Honor. The very same fate would likely happen to those trying to bind Odium right after the Shattering. Preservation gave up his mind, which weakened him, making him a shell of a Shard. Almost mindless. And Honor is in pieces. It's not that easy to bind a Shard. This action would very likely be seen as breaking of the agreement of not interfering with one another, exposing all 15 Shards to Odium at the same time. Moreover it seems some (maybe even most) of Shards supported the attack on Ambition or Devotion and Dominion - not only Mercy and Autonomy aided Odium, but Endowment has some very harsh words about Ambition's Vessel Uli Da, Aona and Skai, OB first letter:

Quote

You mustn't worry yourself about Rayse. It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish--violating our pact from the very beginning. [...] No good can come of two Shards settling in one location. It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another, and it disappoints me that so few of the Shards have kept to this original agreement. As for Uli Da, it was obvious from the outset that she was going to be a problem. Good riddance. Regardless, this is not your concern. You turned your back on divinity. If Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with.

 

[cometaryorbit]

I'm not sure single Shard worlds are necessarily always a bad thing for their inhabitants.

Endowment is a single Shard - while Awakening can definitely be problematic and exploitative, it could arguably be a net benefit to the poor compared to what you'd expect at a comparable tech level in our history (Warbreaker era Nalthis strikes me as Early Modern except for the lack of gunpowder, maybe 1500s or early 1600s ish?). Being a Drab isn't nice, but its better than seeing your family starve. At the very least, Nalthis seems no more unstable than Earth (300 years without a major war is a lot better than you'd expect by our history's standards for a region with at least half a dozen distinct nations, historical beefs with each other, and no external greater threat to unite them, IMO) unlike Scadrial or Roshar.

Autonomy is really scary if you're Scadrian, but I'm not sure she's actually that bad for the inhabitants of her own worlds. Moonlight says that people who stay to the safe areas are fine - and if First of the Sun is any indication, that's the vast majority of people.

Every Shard in isolation is dangerous. But that's not the same thing as saying that it's always a negative effect. And from what we see of Harmony in TLM, combining Shards isn't necessarily super stable either.

-

I wouldn't be surprised if Odium got away with it for a while because Ambition was at least as scary as he was; maybe Dominion too.

Edited May 14, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

For more than 7000 years out of around 10000 years since the Shattering, Odium was present on Roshar, immediately pushing people into multi-generational genocide. Most of Roshar’s shardic history is with Odium being there. And Odium was given permission to settle in the system by Honor and Cultivation - which suggests they were both willing to sacrifice people of Roshar just to trap Odium there. Not a balance system.

Aren't we talking about Roshar's ecology and such before the whole Desolations thing? Yes, Odium has been there for the vast majority of the time, but what we were talking about was how successful Shardworlds end up being with two Shards being in residence rather than just one. As for Honor and Cultivation's choice, they may have decided that sacrificing the peoples of Roshar was worth keeping Odium contained. It was a balanced system, before Odium got involved and Honor and Cultivation had to weigh the pros and cons of having a serial god killer trapped in close proximity to them, but unable to hurt any others.

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's really hard to say if there is a Vessel capable of resisting Odium alone. Ati afterall was a kind and generous man and we all know how he ended. The only way to tamper Odium is to Ascend with a second Shard - for this new Vessel is needed and it needs to be done quite fast, as every Vessel will eventually succumb to Shard's overwhelming intent.

Not necessarily. I see the pairing of Honor and Odium that could result in a directional hate - Shard of War would direct the hate against their enemies, while Shards like Justice might direct it against those who have broken their promises and oaths, bringing them a divine punishment. It’s not perfect in both cases but manageable at least. This will depend on how equal are powers of both Shards and the mindset of their new Vessel. 

It's really interesting to see if Taravangian will continue Rayse attempts to redefine Odium's intent into Passion, if yes how successful will he be at that. Fully changing Odium to Passion might partially solve some issues with this Shard.

We'll have to assume that no Vessel can combat the Intent of its Shard forever, beyond maybe affecting the Intent a little. I'll have to admit, I hadn't considered combing Odium with another shard, but that's a totally viable (and frankly better than what I had come up with) avenue to contain it too. As for Odium not being directionless, he can be focused through being combined, but until that happens we have to again assume that His Intent is to hate anything and everything he is opposed to. If, say, Rayse had achieved his dream of being the only Shard and now controls the entire Cosmere, I think Odium really would shift gears into Passion, Not by literally changing Intent, but once there is nothing left to hate, the Intent will start amplifying whatever other emotions are there. As Brandon has said, no one word can entirely capture the essence of an Intent, and the fact that Odium isn't Hatred is indicative of the fact that Hatred isn't the only thing that Shard's Intent embodies. As for Taravangian, I think he would, if for nothing more than to improve his PR (public relations) as propaganda seems like something Todium would do.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Which resulted in the death of Leras and Splintering of Honor. The very same fate would likely happen to those trying to bind Odium right after the Shattering. Preservation gave up his mind, which weakened him, making him a shell of a Shard. Almost mindless. And Honor is in pieces. It's not that easy to bind a Shard. This action would very likely be seen as breaking of the agreement of not interfering with one another, exposing all 15 Shards to Odium at the same time. Moreover it seems some (maybe even most) of Shards supported the attack on Ambition or Devotion and Dominion - not only Mercy and Autonomy aided Odium, but Endowment has some very harsh words about Ambition's Vessel Uli Da, Aona and Skai, OB first letter:

Technically, we don't know if binding Odium to Roshar is what was the final blow that Splintered Honor, so it could be that Honor (being the Shard of Oaths and Binding) found a way to trap Odium there, and Odium then Splintered him. Acting against him would definitely count as breaking the deal, but again, One against Fifteen, with no experience using the powers yet, Odium wouldn't have very good odds. If he attacked the others in self-defense, at most he could take down one or two before the rest get him. They could just Splinter him, Fifteen Infinities against One, or they could bind him and risk having adverse, if weakened due to being spread out, effects on themselves. You do have a point though.

As for Shards supporting him, I think there may be a slight misinterpretation there. Autonomy helped him against Aona and Skai, but she had vested interests in Sel, given the fact that Jaddeth is all but confirmed to be an Avatar of hers. The misinterpretation comes with Mercy. I don't think it's ever explicitly stated (unless you have a source, which I would love to see if you do) that Mercy was fighting alongside Odium, just that the Odium, Mercy, and Ambition fought. I always interpreted that to mean something along the lines of Mercy and Ambition were going to settle together like other Shards and Odium attacked, or that Odium attacked Ambition and Mercy tried to help her. Given the connotations of Mercy, I just never considered the idea that Mercy was helping Odium instead, but I still think it's the unlikeliest of the three possibilities unless Brandon has said otherwise.

And Endowment, her response strikes me more as the opinions of a traditionalist than someone who has a legitimate reason to be angry. She says it's a pity about Aona and Skai, her tone doesn't seem to convey any malice or dislike, just resignation that they did something stupid and paid the price. There is genuine malice against Ambition, but I think that may be because of something Uli Da did or who she was before Ascension, possibly discrimination or prejudice against one of the Sho Del, maybe mixed in with apprehension of her Intent, considering Odium thought Ambition was a threat.

Endowment just sounds snobbish and opinionated, Autonomy was looking after her own interests, and Mercy is unconfirmed to have been supporting Odium. No concrete proof any Shard was against Odium's victims, other than Endowment's dislike of Ambition and Autonomy doing what she always does (meddle and colonize).

43 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Odium got away with it for a while because Ambition was at least as scary as he was; maybe Dominion too.

Excellent point, I could totally see that playing a factor in some Shards turning a blind eye to Odium's rampage; He was definitely dangerous, but he was taking out other potential dangers too, and wasn't growing any stronger by stealing their power.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Aren't we talking about Roshar's ecology and such before the whole Desolations thing? Yes, Odium has been there for the vast majority of the time, but what we were talking about was how successful Shardworlds end up being with two Shards being in residence rather than just one. As for Honor and Cultivation's choice, they may have decided that sacrificing the peoples of Roshar was worth keeping Odium contained. It was a balanced system, before Odium got involved and Honor and Cultivation had to weigh the pros and cons of having a serial god killer trapped in close proximity to them, but unable to hurt any others.

Before Odium got there - maybe it was a balanced world. But so is Nalthis and Taldain. And there are other which we don't know about - Mercy, Invention, Valor, Whimsy - they might have also a balanced worlds we just don't know about.

11 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Technically, we don't know if binding Odium to Roshar is what was the final blow that Splintered Honor, so it could be that Honor (being the Shard of Oaths and Binding) found a way to trap Odium there, and Odium then Splintered him. Acting against him would definitely count as breaking the deal, but again, One against Fifteen, with no experience using the powers yet, Odium wouldn't have very good odds. If he attacked the others in self-defense, at most he could take down one or two before the rest get him. They could just Splinter him, Fifteen Infinities against One, or they could bind him and risk having adverse, if weakened due to being spread out, effects on themselves. You do have a point though.

We don't know how breaking oaths expose Shards - it makes them vulnerable. And they would not only expose themself to Odium but also to each other - everyone would be now vulnerable to attacks and that might be even more disastrous in consequences.

Plus we don't know what relations Vessels had before the Shattering. They might be friends, or enemies united by a single cause, not trusting each other. Right after the Shattering they might simply not know what Odium will do, what his deal is and what he wanted to achieve. You're saying that from the perspective of time, they didn't have such luxury, and might simply believe that everyone would just go separately without messing with each other - including Odium. 

Something made both Mercy and Endowment support the idea of killing Uli Da - maybe Odium was among the “good guys” at the beginning, while Ambition did something that she shouldn’t have done so?

18 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

As for Shards supporting him, I think there may be a slight misinterpretation there. Autonomy helped him against Aona and Skai, but she had vested interests in Sel, given the fact that Jaddeth is all but confirmed to be an Avatar of hers. The misinterpretation comes with Mercy. I don't think it's ever explicitly stated (unless you have a source, which I would love to see if you do) that Mercy was fighting alongside Odium, just that the Odium, Mercy, and Ambition fought. I always interpreted that to mean something along the lines of Mercy and Ambition were going to settle together like other Shards and Odium attacked, or that Odium attacked Ambition and Mercy tried to help her. Given the connotations of Mercy, I just never considered the idea that Mercy was helping Odium instead, but I still think it's the unlikeliest of the three possibilities unless Brandon has said otherwise.

While in the letter it wasn't specifically said that Mercy was on the side of Odium, I don't think Odium would let Mercy escape alive if she was fighting against him. We also know Odium's future plans - backstab Autonomy - if  Mercy was against Odium, she would be the priority to "finish the job". Mercy was found without any problems by Harmony, Odium should have no problems with that as well, to target her. Endowment was very positive about what fate Ambition has met, other Shards might be supportive as well. And there is a WoB saying it's dangerous to attack a Shard one on one (while Odium did attack D&D with "some" help from Autonomy, and H&C likely alone, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that he would attack A&M alone). Based on that I think it's more reasonable that Odium and Mercy were on the same side, but the opposite can be true as well.

I personally believe more or less that Mercy joined because she wanted Ambition to die without much suffering, and that she might be the one that did the final merciful blow to her after escaping Threnody. I also think that Mercy took a less active role in the fight because she wasn't mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded. But that's just my unsupported speculation.

35 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

And Endowment, her response strikes me more as the opinions of a traditionalist than someone who has a legitimate reason to be angry. She says it's a pity about Aona and Skai, her tone doesn't seem to convey any malice or dislike, just resignation that they did something stupid and paid the price. There is genuine malice against Ambition, but I think that may be because of something Uli Da did or who she was before Ascension, possibly discrimination or prejudice against one of the Sho Del, maybe mixed in with apprehension of her Intent, considering Odium thought Ambition was a threat.

It's very highly likely that Endowment Vessel is not a human and because there is only 1 dragon Vessel, she likely is Sho Del as well.

Spoiler

Trae Cooper

In the past we deeply discussed the mechanism with which Breaths are decided to be doled out or endowed on Nalthis. And you said that there is an intellect that is doling them out, but that their intentions or that their goals are difficult to predict or nonstandard. And my question is: are they nonstandard because the base Vessel behind them does not have, at its core, a standard human psychology? 

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Good question. Excellent question. RAFO, I like the way you're theorizing. I have said before, that there are multiple nonhuman Vessels in the Cosmere. So, your theorizing perhaps is going to bear fruit. 

Did someone say "chulls"? No, it's not the chulls. There are no chulls that are holding Shards in the Cosmere. 

Footnote: The questioner is referring to this WoB.
JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

44 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Endowment just sounds snobbish and opinionated, Autonomy was looking after her own interests, and Mercy is unconfirmed to have been supporting Odium. No concrete proof any Shard was against Odium's victims, other than Endowment's dislike of Ambition and Autonomy doing what she always does (meddle and colonize).

44 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Excellent point, I could totally see that playing a factor in some Shards turning a blind eye to Odium's rampage; He was definitely dangerous, but he was taking out other potential dangers too, and wasn't growing any stronger by stealing their power.

That's what I mean by "Shards supported Odium". Not that they actively helped him, but rather it was in their interest to see those particular Shards be Splintered and they were more or less happy to use Odium to achieve that.

[Just_a_Fan he/him]

On 3/9/2023 at 4:00 PM, SPECTRE120 said:

When My Little Pony gets added to the Cosmere

I have NO clue what's going on, but this made me laugh.

ironically, the second you step out of civilization in mlp's world, you walk into a d&d monster manual. and no, i cannot spell.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

While in the letter it wasn't specifically said that Mercy was on the side of Odium, I don't think Odium would let Mercy escape alive if she was fighting against him. We also know Odium's future plans - backstab Autonomy - if  Mercy was against Odium, she would be the priority to "finish the job". Mercy was found without any problems by Harmony, Odium should have no problems with that as well, to target her. Endowment was very positive about what fate Ambition has met, other Shards might be supportive as well. And there is a WoB saying it's dangerous to attack a Shard one on one (while Odium did attack D&D with "some" help from Autonomy, and H&C likely alone, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that he would attack A&M alone). Based on that I think it's more reasonable that Odium and Mercy were on the same side, but the opposite can be true as well.

I personally believe more or less that Mercy joined because she wanted Ambition to die without much suffering, and that she might be the one that did the final merciful blow to her after escaping Threnody. I also think that Mercy took a less active role in the fight because she wasn't mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded. But that's just my unsupported speculation.

It's very highly likely that Endowment Vessel is not a human and because there is only 1 dragon Vessel, she likely is Sho Del as well.

That's what I mean by "Shards supported Odium". Not that they actively helped him, but rather it was in their interest to see those particular Shards be Splintered and they were more or less happy to use Odium to achieve that.

Well argued. I still think Mercy wouldn't have supported Odium, and Odium might not have intended to kill Mercy, only Ambition, or he may have been too injured from the struggle to immediately attack Mercy as well, or he simply saw Mercy as not an immediate threat, and was then imprisoned on Roshar before he could, but with the knowledge we have right now, either one could be the case given we have no hard evidence beyond a single epigraph letter.

As for other Shard turning a blind eye to Odium, I was arguing specifically against the fact that other Shards were actively helping him Splinter other Shards like Autonomy did, oblique support only is very possible, like you said.

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

We don't know how breaking oaths expose Shards - it makes them vulnerable. And they would not only expose themself to Odium but also to each other - everyone would be now vulnerable to attacks and that might be even more disastrous in consequences.

Plus we don't know what relations Vessels had before the Shattering. They might be friends, or enemies united by a single cause, not trusting each other. Right after the Shattering they might simply not know what Odium will do, what his deal is and what he wanted to achieve. You're saying that from the perspective of time, they didn't have such luxury, and might simply believe that everyone would just go separately without messing with each other - including Odium.

If breaking the pact in that way made everyone open to everyone, Odium would have died ages ago. His attacks on the other Shards should have made him vulnerable to every other Shard, which any of the 3 other Splintered Shards should have been able to exploit, or Cultivation would've instead of hiding. I think that breaking such a loose pact would only make you vulnerable to the specific Shard you meddled with, and in that case, the 15 Shards would only be vulnerable to Odium, who couldn't do anything about it.

Unless Odium specifically goes after Shards he could argue had already broken the pact, in which case he would still be considered as within the parameters of the original pact (which would mean that Ambition would have had to have been travelling with Mercy together so Odium could use the loophole, meaning Mercy was on Ambition's side, at least initially).

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

Before Odium got there - maybe it was a balanced world. But so is Nalthis and Taldain. And there are other which we don't know about - Mercy, Invention, Valor, Whimsy - they might have also a balanced worlds we just don't know about.

That's because Endowment and Autonomy have more stable and constructive Intents. They basically lucked out in that going to extreme cases of their Intent wouldn't be bad for their worlds. Ruin couldn't do that, and neither could Preservation. Most Shards have enough of a moderate Intent that they can manage a world by themselves, but some, like Preservation, Ruin, Odium etc couldn't, and would need another Shard to work with or merge with. The argument is that Shards, when paired together, moderate and complement each others Intents, and so statistically Dishardic Shardworlds would be better off than Monoshardic Shardworlds.

Tangent to consider: Would Devotion and Odium's hybrid Intent be Harmony/Discord too?

 

[cometaryorbit]

It's not guaranteed that Mercy fought on either side, exactly. We just know that the three "clashed". Maybe Mercy was trying to end the fight / separate them.

Re Odium + Devotion: I don't think so. Those two might be super hard to combine, because they're nearly opposite but haven't polarized to become perfect opposites like Ruin and Preservation. And I don't think they're inherently exactly opposite - Odium isn't simply Hate and Devotion isn't simply Love. I'd argue that Devotion is actually closer to loving service or care than generically "love", and from RoW Odium seems to be as much about conflict and anger as hate. They wouldn't balance out perfectly, but also I can't see a concept that would combine them.

That depends on how combining Shards actually works, though. Do you get only the overlap of the two Intents, or the sum of both?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

If breaking the pact in that way made everyone open to everyone, Odium would have died ages ago. His attacks on the other Shards should have made him vulnerable to every other Shard, which any of the 3 other Splintered Shards should have been able to exploit, or Cultivation would've instead of hiding.

That's precisely what Odium was doing! He argued that they've broken the pact and he is the "executioner" bringing justice, not intervening against the argument made.

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

Even if in your idea all 15 Shards won't be immediately vulnerable to each other, any one of them can now argue that others have broken the rules exposing them to attacks. Perception very likely matters here.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's because Endowment and Autonomy have more stable and constructive Intents.

I don't necessarily agree that Autonomy is a stable and constructive intent. In its most extreme form it forces total isolation. Taldain is a very divided world, encompassing the idea of Autonomy, with harsh environments, very limited traveling infrastructure and with conflicts everywhere, yet it's still balanced and it's the most technologically advanced world.

I'm pretty sure both Ruin and Preservation could invest in the already existing world separately and create something unique, harsh yet sustainable. While Preservation's world would embrace the idea of pacifism and self-control (like a Tibetan monks, Swiss neutrality or Japanese isolationism), Ruin would drive wars and conflicts around his world (not to ultimate destruction of the planet, that was because of the deal he made with Leras) - more similar to Viking, Mongol or Hun (or pre-isolationist Japan)  society or even sacrificial society of pre-colonial Central America, like Aztecs or Mayans. Balanced and sustainable but not in the same way as our modern society. I bet Ruin's world might even host a  resource greedy society, where inventions and changes can happen quite fast - Ruin might create a world worthy of Autonomy rivalry.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Tangent to consider: Would Devotion and Odium's hybrid Intent be Harmony/Discord too?

Harmony? No. But True Passion? YES! Venli noted that while Odium calls himself Passion, he lacks and doesn't encourage emotions like love, caring, trust etc. Devotion is all about those emotions. Together they could be a real Passion, including all emotions. That's a good combination, hard to find a Vessel like that however. And if the Vessel was not able enough, they might end up in a similar situation as Sazed.

Spoiler

Questioner

I wanted to know why in The Stormlight Archive and Mistborn, all the gods were named after human traits?

Brandon Sanderson

So this is... all the books are connected. So a long time ago, the premise is, a being... god named Adonalsium was split into 16 pieces, and so the various "aspects" of god, and those aspects are now the gods of all of these things. So there were two in the Elantris world, there's one in the Warbreaker world. Mostly Mistborn and Stormlight is where you'll find out about them.

Questioner

Preservation, and... I remember Hatred [Odium] in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, Preservation and Ruin. And on Sel, it was Dominion and Devotion, or Love and Conquest were the two.

Questioner

So all of them are connected?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Jason Paas

Are Odium and Devotion opposites?

Brandon Sanderson

One could make that argument.

General Twitter 2016 (Feb. 1, 2016)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

It's not guaranteed that Mercy fought on either side, exactly. We just know that the three "clashed". Maybe Mercy was trying to end the fight / separate them.

Re Odium + Devotion: I don't think so. Those two might be super hard to combine, because they're nearly opposite but haven't polarized to become perfect opposites like Ruin and Preservation. And I don't think they're inherently exactly opposite - Odium isn't simply Hate and Devotion isn't simply Love. I'd argue that Devotion is actually closer to loving service or care than generically "love", and from RoW Odium seems to be as much about conflict and anger as hate. They wouldn't balance out perfectly, but also I can't see a concept that would combine them.

That depends on how combining Shards actually works, though. Do you get only the overlap of the two Intents, or the sum of both?

 

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Harmony? No. But True Passion? YES! Venli noted that while Odium calls himself Passion, he lacks and doesn't encourage emotions like love, caring, trust etc. Devotion is all about those emotions. Together they could be a real Passion, including all emotions. That's a good combination, hard to find a Vessel like that however. And if the Vessel was not able enough, they might end up in a similar situation as Sazed.

  Hide contents

Questioner

I wanted to know why in The Stormlight Archive and Mistborn, all the gods were named after human traits?

Brandon Sanderson

So this is... all the books are connected. So a long time ago, the premise is, a being... god named Adonalsium was split into 16 pieces, and so the various "aspects" of god, and those aspects are now the gods of all of these things. So there were two in the Elantris world, there's one in the Warbreaker world. Mostly Mistborn and Stormlight is where you'll find out about them.

Questioner

Preservation, and... I remember Hatred [Odium] in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, Preservation and Ruin. And on Sel, it was Dominion and Devotion, or Love and Conquest were the two.

Questioner

So all of them are connected?

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

  Hide contents

Jason Paas

Are Odium and Devotion opposites?

Brandon Sanderson

One could make that argument.

General Twitter 2016 (Feb. 1, 2016)

 

I ask because while a lot of Sharders theorize what the combinations of Shards would be (like my idea of Cultivation + Ruin becoming Change or Evolution just above), the only known instance of Shards being combined in a way where they still act as a Shard with an Intent (So that means excluding the Dor), the Intent is about the balance of the two preexisting Shards, and not a new, novel Intent. Harmony didn't end up with a new, Harmony-polarised Investiture, but rather Ruin and Preservation's Investiture being mixed together. Harmonium isn't pure Harmony Investiture in solid form, but rather Atium and Lerasium which have been Connected spiritually (not just alloyed, as we know that Harmonium definitely isn't an alloy of Atium and Lerasium), forcing new properties onto it. Harmony also doesn't draw on one singular combined Investiture, but two different ones. Even the Coppermind article on Shards says that Ruin and Preservation "remain somewhat separate within this unified construct", the construct referring to Harmony . The Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still present within Harmony, and the balance (or lack thereof) is what determines Harmony's Intent.

Therefore, maybe we've been looking at the merging of Shards wrong this entire time. Maybe Shards don't merge and form a brand new one with a new Intent, but instead, they remain separate within the whole. The equality between them is what affects the Intent, which is always either Harmony or Discord (Obviously a little different to avoid confusion, like Balance and Imbalance, or Consonance and Dissonance, or Unity and Division, etc). This may not hold for Shards with similar or unrelated Intents, like Endowment and Valor, or Mercy and Invention, but it might apply as a rule to opposing or near-opposing Shards, Like Ruin and Preservation, Devotion and Odium (or even Devotion and Dominion, but those complement each other in a way we haven't seen in other Shards, One about gaining and retaining control, the other about lovingly and willfully giving it up to someone, so they might avoid this dilemma), Mercy and Odium, Honor and Whimsy, etc.

I don't think there's a WoB that directly contradicts this idea, but If there is I'd love to see it. I've been sitting on this theory for a while. Thoughts?

 

[Argenti he/him]

3 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

 

I ask because while a lot of Sharders theorize what the combinations of Shards would be (like my idea of Cultivation + Ruin becoming Change or Evolution just above), the only known instance of Shards being combined in a way where they still act as a Shard with an Intent (So that means excluding the Dor), the Intent is about the balance of the two preexisting Shards, and not a new, novel Intent. Harmony didn't end up with a new, Harmony-polarised Investiture, but rather Ruin and Preservation's Investiture being mixed together. Harmonium isn't pure Harmony Investiture in solid form, but rather Atium and Lerasium which have been Connected spiritually (not just alloyed, as we know that Harmonium definitely isn't an alloy of Atium and Lerasium), forcing new properties onto it. Harmony also doesn't draw on one singular combined Investiture, but two different ones. Even the Coppermind article on Shards says that Ruin and Preservation "remain somewhat separate within this unified construct", the construct referring to Harmony . The Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still present within Harmony, and the balance (or lack thereof) is what determines Harmony's Intent.

Therefore, maybe we've been looking at the merging of Shards wrong this entire time. Maybe Shards don't merge and form a brand new one with a new Intent, but instead, they remain separate within the whole. The equality between them is what affects the Intent, which is always either Harmony or Discord (Obviously a little different to avoid confusion, like Balance and Imbalance, or Consonance and Dissonance, or Unity and Division, etc). This may not hold for Shards with similar or unrelated Intents, like Endowment and Valor, or Mercy and Invention, but it might apply as a rule to opposing or near-opposing Shards, Like Ruin and Preservation, Devotion and Odium (or even Devotion and Dominion, but those complement each other in a way we haven't seen in other Shards, One about gaining and retaining control, the other about lovingly and willfully giving it up to someone, so they might avoid this dilemma), Mercy and Odium, Honor and Whimsy, etc.

I don't think there's a WoB that directly contradicts this idea, but If there is I'd love to see it. I've been sitting on this theory for a while. Thoughts?

 

I whole heartedly disagree, I've said it before and I'll say it again,  (from one of my former posts)

Quote

People very commonly think that the Shards keep their intent separate because Harmony doesn't know what's going on and keep talking about the two Shards he holds. My theory works on the premise that when Shards merge, their intent combines and does not remain separate (Its been said Harmony holds one shard, not two). Ex; Harmony is not driven to preserve or destroy but rather he is driven to "Preserve to further Destroy" or "Destroy to further Preserve". The reason he struggles to act is not beccause he's at war with himself, but because his intent is dificult to properly command. 

Recently, I saw people talk about how Ruin and Cultivation would make a good pair and somone else argued that because they're oposed, they wouldn't. But it realy doesn't matter if their intents are oppisites, as when the shards merge their inntents merge and temper each other. With Cultivation focusing on improvement and ruin on decay, they would mellow out and focus on change both to improve and weaken.

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

4 hours ago, Argenti said:

I whole heartedly disagree, I've said it before and I'll say it again,  (from one of my former posts)

 

The Shards do join and become a single Shard, given the Sazed would drop Harmony/Discord if he died, but within that unified construct, I'd argue that the basic Shards remain at least partly separate (The Coppermind article says as much, although Harmony may be an outlier in this regard). Notice that Sazed's Intent isn't an amalgamation of Ruin and Preservation, but rather about the balance between the two. We know for a fact that the powers of Ruin and Preservation can be used in tandem to do things, such as when they created Scadrial together, or when Sazed describes how he uses them in HoA. It's not like they couldn't have formed an Intent that's something like Creation or Protection (Destroy to Preserve), we actively see Sazed say that the powers belong together, and that they can be used together to create. That, when considered with his view of the powers at the end of HoA, its seems very weird and out of place that the Intent he settles on isn't Creation or something like that, but rather Harmony, unless opposing Shards always end up with the Intent of either Harmony or Discord (or, again, something along those lines)

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I ask because while a lot of Sharders theorize what the combinations of Shards would be (like my idea of Cultivation + Ruin becoming Change or Evolution just above), the only known instance of Shards being combined in a way where they still act as a Shard with an Intent (So that means excluding the Dor), the Intent is about the balance of the two preexisting Shards, and not a new, novel Intent. Harmony didn't end up with a new, Harmony-polarised Investiture, but rather Ruin and Preservation's Investiture being mixed together.

You're partially wrong. Harmony is a whole new Shard. One Shard, not two. But can be perceived as both one new Shard, or two mixed together. But If Sazed died, he would drop Shard Harmony behind. Sazed is Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation.

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

You've said that Splintering a Shard is essentially the same thing as the Shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And Shardholders [Vessels] tend to take the name of the Shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two Shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both Shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

A Memory of Light Seattle Signing (Feb. 12, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

 

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Harmony didn't end up with a new, Harmony-polarised Investiture, but rather Ruin and Preservation's Investiture being mixed together. Harmonium isn't pure Harmony Investiture in solid form, but rather Atium and Lerasium which have been Connected spiritually (not just alloyed, as we know that Harmonium definitely isn't an alloy of Atium and Lerasium), forcing new properties onto it. Harmony also doesn't draw on one singular combined Investiture, but two different ones. Even the Coppermind article on Shards says that Ruin and Preservation "remain somewhat separate within this unified construct", the construct referring to Harmony . The Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still present within Harmony, and the balance (or lack thereof) is what determines Harmony's Intent.

With Harmonium you are again partially wrong (or partially right, as it can be rightfully perceived in both ways). 

But that's the reason why I think Sazed is doing a "bad" job as a dual Shard holder - he perceives his Shard as both Ruin and Preservation in opposition towards each other, not as a single, unified Shard, like Creation (after all both Ruin and Preservation did Create Scadrial together). I think it's the matter of self-perception that defines Harmony as Harmony, not as something singular.

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Therefore, maybe we've been looking at the merging of Shards wrong this entire time. Maybe Shards don't merge and form a brand new one with a new Intent, but instead, they remain separate within the whole. The equality between them is what affects the Intent, which is always either Harmony or Discord (Obviously a little different to avoid confusion, like Balance and Imbalance, or Consonance and Dissonance, or Unity and Division, etc).

That would be very confusing for readers, and the scale of Cosmere would decrease - they all would be unable to act like Harmony. And what would you call a triple Shard? Quadruple Shard? You're saying it's all balance or imbalance, yet Adonalsium existed, would he also be the ultimate Balance, when Shards didn't even exist back then? Odium was said to be a divine hatred, removed from the god which gave it a context, which suggests to me that he was a singular entity, singular "Shard", rather than all 16 balanced together (plus WoBs say that more Shards could be created or different 16 ones as well). For me the Shattering proves that you can merge Shards together and gain a singular entity, singular Shard, rather than two Shards balancing each other. But you and I both know that the Shattering changed the rules. If different singular Shards could be created during the Shattering, does that mean that Preservation is composed of other smaller Shards, mixed together but not being a single Shard? No, Preservation is a singular Shard. Shards can be split into smaller Shards, which makes them different, but the big Shards are still a singular entity, with one intent, one power, not few balanced together. That's why I think Sazed is doing a bad job. It's also possible, yet highly unlikely, to split Harmony into 2 Shards different from Ruin and Preservation.

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer

Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that one.

Paladin Brewer

Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people?

Brandon Sanderson

That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Isaac Betzold

Could a Shard be split into smaller Intents, like if Honor were alive and then was split into maybe Integrity and Bravery?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Very plausible. You ask some weird things sometimes, this one is not that weird, this is very plausible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Eric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Eric

So it could've been different Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's plausible.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

Spoiler

CosmereQuestioner

Like Adonalsium, could Harmony split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation with the right intent.

You once stated that it is plausible that with a different intent Adonalsium could have shattered into a DIFFERENT 16 shards. You have also said that Harmony is one shard (or could be viewed this way.) My question: Could Harmony split/be split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation (yet still complementing/opposite) with the right intent of the splitter?  And if not is this because Harmony is still too invested in Scadrial as Ruin/Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Almost anything is possible... but it is very, very unlikely that Harmony would split except back to Ruin/Preservation.

General Signed Books 2017 (March 7, 2017)

 

13 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

or even Devotion and Dominion, but those complement each other in a way we haven't seen in other Shards, One about gaining and retaining control, the other about lovingly and willfully giving it up to someone, so they might avoid this dilemma

This very example proves this is wrong, as Devotion and Dominion are mixed together into singular Dor.

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It's not like they couldn't have formed an Intent that's something like Creation or Protection (Destroy to Preserve), we actively see Sazed say that the powers belong together, and that they can be used together to create.

Sazed chose the name Harmony because it felt right to him - depending on intent and how a Vessel sees both Shards, I see it very possible that somebody could pick up both Ruin and Preservation and become something different than Harmony/Discord - which is confirmed by Brandon.

Spoiler

Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Kiiyashi

If Rashek had been in a position to claim Preservation and Ruin simultaneously, as Sazed did, would he have been able to to Ascend to Harmony, another combination of the two Shards, or just one?

Brandon Sanderson

All three are possible.

General Signed Books 2017 (Jan. 13, 2017)

 

[Argenti he/him]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

You're partially wrong. Harmony is a whole new Shard. One Shard, not two. But can be perceived as both one new Shard, or two mixed together. But If Sazed died, he would drop Shard Harmony behind. Sazed is Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation.

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Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

You've said that Splintering a Shard is essentially the same thing as the Shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And Shardholders [Vessels] tend to take the name of the Shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two Shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both Shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

A Memory of Light Seattle Signing (Feb. 12, 2013)

 

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Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

 

With Harmonium you are again partially wrong (or partially right, as it can be rightfully perceived in both ways). 

But that's the reason why I think Sazed is doing a "bad" job as a dual Shard holder - he perceives his Shard as both Ruin and Preservation in opposition towards each other, not as a single, unified Shard, like Creation (after all both Ruin and Preservation did Create Scadrial together). I think it's the matter of self-perception that defines Harmony as Harmony, not as something singular.

That would be very confusing for readers, and the scale of Cosmere would decrease - they all would be unable to act like Harmony. And what would you call a triple Shard? Quadruple Shard? You're saying it's all balance or imbalance, yet Adonalsium existed, would he also be the ultimate Balance, when Shards didn't even exist back then? Odium was said to be a divine hatred, removed from the god which gave it a context, which suggests to me that he was a singular entity, singular "Shard", rather than all 16 balanced together (plus WoBs say that more Shards could be created or different 16 ones as well). For me the Shattering proves that you can merge Shards together and gain a singular entity, singular Shard, rather than two Shards balancing each other. But you and I both know that the Shattering changed the rules. If different singular Shards could be created during the Shattering, does that mean that Preservation is composed of other smaller Shards, mixed together but not being a single Shard? No, Preservation is a singular Shard. Shards can be split into smaller Shards, which makes them different, but the big Shards are still a singular entity, with one intent, one power, not few balanced together. That's why I think Sazed is doing a bad job. It's also possible, yet highly unlikely, to split Harmony into 2 Shards different from Ruin and Preservation.

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Paladin Brewer

Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO that one.

Paladin Brewer

Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people?

Brandon Sanderson

That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

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Isaac Betzold

Could a Shard be split into smaller Intents, like if Honor were alive and then was split into maybe Integrity and Bravery?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Very plausible. You ask some weird things sometimes, this one is not that weird, this is very plausible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

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Eric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Eric

So it could've been different Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's plausible.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

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CosmereQuestioner

Like Adonalsium, could Harmony split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation with the right intent.

You once stated that it is plausible that with a different intent Adonalsium could have shattered into a DIFFERENT 16 shards. You have also said that Harmony is one shard (or could be viewed this way.) My question: Could Harmony split/be split into 2 shards OTHER THAN Ruin/Preservation (yet still complementing/opposite) with the right intent of the splitter?  And if not is this because Harmony is still too invested in Scadrial as Ruin/Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Almost anything is possible... but it is very, very unlikely that Harmony would split except back to Ruin/Preservation.

General Signed Books 2017 (March 7, 2017)

 

This very example proves this is wrong, as Devotion and Dominion are mixed together into singular Dor.

Sazed chose the name Harmony because it felt right to him - depending on intent and how a Vessel sees both Shards, I see it very possible that somebody could pick up both Ruin and Preservation and become something different than Harmony/Discord - which is confirmed by Brandon.

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Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kiiyashi

If Rashek had been in a position to claim Preservation and Ruin simultaneously, as Sazed did, would he have been able to to Ascend to Harmony, another combination of the two Shards, or just one?

Brandon Sanderson

All three are possible.

General Signed Books 2017 (Jan. 13, 2017)

 

Damnation! I was gonna say that , but yes Sazed is very bad at his job