Preservation sucks, any single Shard's influence is a bad thing.

Underwater_Worldhopper · May 16, 2023

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

You're partially wrong. Harmony is a whole new Shard. One Shard, not two. But can be perceived as both one new Shard, or two mixed together. But If Sazed died, he would drop Shard Harmony behind. Sazed is Harmony, not Ruin and Preservation.

He is one Shard, yes, but I mean the Investiture itself still exists within him as either Preserving Investiture or Ruinous Investiture, not one mass of Harmony-Investiture. Similarly, the Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still bouncing around in there somewhere, otherwise Harmony wouldn't be so at odds with himself, he'd only strive for Harmony, whatever it means, not a balance between the two previous Intents, which is what he's currently doing. If he died, he would drop Harmony, but Harmony itself is a unified construct within which Preservation and Ruin still exist. This is what the Coppermind article on Shards says:

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Ruin and Preservation, on the other hand, have blended together into Harmony, albeit they remain separate within this unified construct.

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With Harmonium you are again partially wrong (or partially right, as it can be rightfully perceived in both ways).

What exactly is wrong? The phrasing isn't the best, but what I was trying to say here was that since there is no Harmony-Investiture, Harmonium is just Ruin and Preservation's Investiture manifested together in a way that's separate from an alloy. We have evidence of this in the fact that Harmonium, when heated, tries to split into Atium and Lerasium, and can then be actually split into the two. Harmonium is two substances (if Investiture could be called a substance) trying to act like they're one, but since they're so diametrically opposed to one another, this make it extremely reactive, since they actively try to separate, and use reacting as a means to achieve that end.

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But that's the reason why I think Sazed is doing a "bad" job as a dual Shard holder - he perceives his Shard as both Ruin and Preservation in opposition towards each other, not as a single, unified Shard, like Creation (after all both Ruin and Preservation did Create Scadrial together). I think it's the matter of self-perception that defines Harmony as Harmony, not as something singular.

The perception of the Vessel can't affect the Shard to that degree, otherwise Rayse could've changed Odium into Passion.

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That would be very confusing for readers, and the scale of Cosmere would decrease - they all would be unable to act like Harmony. And what would you call a triple Shard? Quadruple Shard? You're saying it's all balance or imbalance, yet Adonalsium existed, would he also be the ultimate Balance, when Shards didn't even exist back then? Odium was said to be a divine hatred, removed from the god which gave it a context, which suggests to me that he was a singular entity, singular "Shard", rather than all 16 balanced together (plus WoBs say that more Shards could be created or different 16 ones as well). For me the Shattering proves that you can merge Shards together and gain a singular entity, singular Shard, rather than two Shards balancing each other. But you and I both know that the Shattering changed the rules. If different singular Shards could be created during the Shattering, does that mean that Preservation is composed of other smaller Shards, mixed together but not being a single Shard? No, Preservation is a singular Shard. Shards can be split into smaller Shards, which makes them different, but the big Shards are still a singular entity, with one intent, one power, not few balanced together. That's why I think Sazed is doing a bad job. It's also possible, yet highly unlikely, to split Harmony into 2 Shards different from Ruin and Preservation.

This is where we get into the fundamental nature of Shards in the Cosmere. Adonalsium, presumably, didnt have an Intent, so he didnt have to deal with things like certain actions being against his Intent (There was a WoB that Adonalsium's Intent might have been something like making sentient life, but it isnt confirmed). He was shattered using the Dawnshards, which were the Commands used to make quite literally everything, so it's possible that the process of Shattering changed the nature of Adonalsium. He had access to pure, unpolarised, Intentless Investiture, but the process of Shattering, given the way Brandon talks about it, likely polarised sixteen aspects of Adonalsium against each other, and were then split into separate Shards. The fact that he could have been Shattered into a different number of Shards, and different Intents, lends credence to this idea. The Shards don't necessarily embody crucial aspects of existence, but are rather random characteristics of Adonalsium that were made extreme and then yanked apart from one another.

I believe that to remake Adonalsium the way he was originally, the Dawnshards would have to be used again. Simply getting one person to Ascend as Vessel to every Shard wouldn't be enough to remake Adonalsium in that original form. If that were to happen, it would be all sixteen Shards, separate but confined together in one 'Shard', not a singular entity that encompasses all of it under one power, like Adonalsium likely was. As for Hybrid Shards with more than two Shards, my theory still works, the balance would just be harder to maintain over all of those Intents.

The idea is that all Investiture was divided into 16 and then polarised to one of the sixteen Intents, and now not even having one Vessel controlling both can merge the different Investitures into one Investiture unless the Dawnshards are used. We have proof of this, given that when Sazed Ascends, he notes that

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The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it.

The powers don't combine, they remain separate. Harmony doesn't have Harmony-Investiture, but both Ruin and Preservation's Investiture, separate within his one Shard.

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This very example proves this is wrong, as Devotion and Dominion are mixed together into singular Dor.

If you read what I said more carefully, you'd have realised why I dont count these two. The Dor is Investiture which has been pulled out of the SR and into the CR. It no longer acts as a Shard, but rather as just a lot of Investiture. Besides, the fact that the Intents are separate yet forced together puts pressure on the Dor, making it push for release through Sel's Invested Arts, meaning its actively fighting against its combination, and would likely separate if given the chance (Though it might not for a different reason, which is stated in the paragraph after the next).

Its similar to Harmonium, but where Harmonium is held together because of the fact that the two Shards are now contained in one hybrid Shard, the Dor remains together because it has nowhere to go, being trapped in the CR. I'm not arguing that Investiture can never be combined under any circumstances, I'm arguing that when one Vessel Ascends to hold more than one Shard, their Intent becomes about the balance of the two Shards rather than a hybrid Intent of the two originals, and the Dor doesn't contradict this because it no longer acts as a Shard (reason below) and doesn't have a Vessel.

Given that its been forced together so long that its developed a rudimentary consciousness, it might not be able to have a Vessel now at all, effectively removing it from consideration as a Shard until that consciousness becomes sapient enough to act on its own like a human. Given that its forming its own mind, it may refrain from splitting, but only because its been forced together so long that the power itself became sentient.

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Sazed chose the name Harmony because it felt right to him - depending on intent and how a Vessel sees both Shards, I see it very possible that somebody could pick up both Ruin and Preservation and become something different than Harmony/Discord - which is confirmed by Brandon.

Sazed chose the name because he felt it matched the Intent the Shard came to have; He did not decide on the actual Intent the Shard ended up having. If his perception mattered so much that it determined the Shard's Intent, it would have become something like Creation, given that's how Sazed thinks of it during and after his Ascension.

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They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

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Ruin and Preservation were dead, and their powers had been joined together. In fact, they belonged together. How had they been split?

He realises that they can create together, and that they belong together. If his perception made a difference, Harmony would be Creation, and the two Wells of Investiture would become one with the matching Intent. This is one of the reasons I started considering this theory in the first place, since it shows that Sazed's impression of the Shard didn't have nearly as big of an impact on Harmony's Intent as it should have.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

Argenti · May 16, 2023

3 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He realises that they can create together, and that they belong together. If his perception made a difference, Harmony would be Creation, and the two Wells of Investiture would become one with the matching Intent. This is one of the reasons I started considering this theory in the first place, since it shows that Sazed's impression of the Shard didn't have nearly as big of an impact on Harmony's Intent as it should have.

Well, no. Think about it, how would not changing and change fuse together to make creation? Preservation had to work with Ruin because Creation is outright against his intent, while it wasn't absolutely against Ruin's. Sazed is wrong about a lot of things, since he is relatively new to the whole shard thing.

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He is one Shard, yes, but I mean the Investiture itself still exists within him as either Preserving Investiture or Ruinous Investiture, not one mass of Harmony-Investiture. Similarly, the Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still bouncing around in there somewhere, otherwise Harmony wouldn't be so at odds with himself, he'd only strive for Harmony, whatever it means, not a balance between the two previous Intents, which is what he's currently doing. If he died, he would drop Harmony, but Harmony itself is a unified construct within which Preservation and Ruin still exist. This is what the Coppermind article on Shards says:

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Ruin and Preservation, on the other hand, have blended together into Harmony, albeit they remain separate within this unified construct.

The coppermind for Harmony also says this.

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“The point is Harmony, creating a way for as many as possible to make their own choices. ”

—Harmony's stated interest^[5]

What this means in terms of exact intent is unknown, but as Harmony holds both Ruin and Preservation, his intent is certainly a blending of the intents of both.

At various points, the coppermind contradicts it's self. This is caused mostly by Sazed and Brandon saying different things all the time, don't take the coppermind as gospel it's just all of our knowledge in place.

Underwater_Worldhopper · May 17, 2023

On 16/05/2023 at 10:30 PM, Argenti said:

Well, no. Think about it, how would not changing and change fuse together to make creation? Preservation had to work with Ruin because Creation is outright against his intent, while it wasn't absolutely against Ruin's. Sazed is wrong about a lot of things, since he is relatively new to the whole shard thing.

My point exactly. It's very unlikely that Sazed has a hand in the Intent of his Shard eventually ending up as Harmony (As in the Intent itself, not the word he decided best described that Intent, since he had to have been the one who chose that for obvious reasons), meaning something else had to have determined that, and since Harmony is a very weird end product from Not Changing and Destruction, there must be some other factor that determined the Intent.

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The coppermind for Harmony also says this.

At various points, the coppermind contradicts it's self. This is caused mostly by Sazed and Brandon saying different things all the time, don't take the coppermind as gospel it's just all of our knowledge in place.

Reasonable, but we have to get sources from somewhere.

I think the driving factor for this theory stems from the fact that Harmony's Intent can change. No other Shard can do this, and not for a lack of trying. Just the fact that Harmony's Intent changes depending on the balance between Preservation and Ruin shows that both still exist somewhat separately within him, and if the Intent is separate, the Investiture that's polarised to that Intent (the Intent wouldn't be there otherwise, the Investiture is the subject of the Intent) must then also remain separate to some degree. Harmonium proves this, given that it separates into pure Ruin and pure Preservation (Atium and Lerasium). So, if the Intents are still separate, and the Investiture is still separate (despite being lumped in under one Shard), what, then, is the basis for the Intent of Harmony? Seems to me that it's the balance between the two, and if this is true for Harmony, it should be true for the rest of the Shards, hence my theory.

Scars of Hathsin · May 18, 2023

I do agree that Sazed does seem to have trouble holding the two shards, but if he changed what he thought and acted, could they act more harmoniously. Like instead of outright using more Preservation the weaker part could he try and use Ruin more, making it into more of a harmony

Underwater_Worldhopper · May 18, 2023

5 hours ago, Scars of Hathsin said:

I do agree that Sazed does seem to have trouble holding the two shards, but if he changed what he thought and acted, could they act more harmoniously. Like instead of outright using more Preservation the weaker part could he try and use Ruin more, making it into more of a harmony

True, but is being Harmony all that good? Harmony finds it very hard to act, because his Intent is about equilibrium, so anything going against that equilibrium goes against his Intent. At this point, Discord may actually be better than Harmony. There was a whole other thread discussing this very idea, given that one if the Terri's prophecies Alendi quotes in his logbook is "His name shall be Discord, but they shall love him for it". So for the Scadrians (and maybe exclusively for the Scadrians, given some of the things we see in Sixth of The Dusk and SP4), Discord may be a good thing

alder24 · May 18, 2023

I knew there was a place where I wanted to reply.

On 16.05.2023 at 7:18 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He is one Shard, yes, but I mean the Investiture itself still exists within him as either Preserving Investiture or Ruinous Investiture, not one mass of Harmony-Investiture. Similarly, the Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still bouncing around in there somewhere, otherwise Harmony wouldn't be so at odds with himself, he'd only strive for Harmony, whatever it means, not a balance between the two previous Intents, which is what he's currently doing. If he died, he would drop Harmony, but Harmony itself is a unified construct within which Preservation and Ruin still exist. This is what the Coppermind article on Shards says:

That's why I'm saying that Sazed is doing a bad job as a dual Shard wielder. He keeps both of those Shards separate, views them as separate and that's why they're not combined into truly singular Shard. Which was his intent when he Ascended, HoA Ch 82:

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We never understood. He wouldn’t simply bear the power of Preservation. He needed the power of Ruin as well.

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

The way he thinks about both Shards defines the Intent of Harmony (on top of WoBs posted previously):

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there a significance between Harmony and Discord being musical terms? And would they be considered different Investiture tones?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and no. So what's going on here is that... it is significant, I chose those two terms very specifically. Not gonna tell you a lot about Discord or things like that, but the idea is that idea of Harmony is in... the sounds are in harmony, they are working together. In Discord they are not. I wouldn't call them Investiture tones, more the way the two tones are responding to each other.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

He keeps them separate, during the Ascension he wanted to use them together, but as of TLM it is proven that Harmony favors Preservation and is suppressing Ruin, which is not very Harmonious. They're not working together anymore, they're separate but against each other.

On 16.05.2023 at 7:18 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The perception of the Vessel can't affect the Shard to that degree, otherwise Rayse could've changed Odium into Passion.

The difference between Sazed and Rayse is that Rayse is holding a single Shard, while Sazed is holding two Shards. Sazed has much more wiggle room, which Rayse doesn't. And we KNOW that Harmony's Intent can be changed into Discord. So yes, actions and perception of a Vessel can affect a Shard so it would change the way it's manifesting itself. Also Rayse was handling Odium badly, he had been enslaved by the power not controlling it - which would severely limit the impact his perception would make. Sazed is still a young Shard, not influenced by his intent to that degree, having much greater impact over his Shard than Rayse.

Spoiler

yulerule

Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

Spoiler

m4ge

If a Splintered Shard is somehow reformed, is it possible to change the word that expresses its Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but that's a very implausible thing depending on how... so, you're getting into some weird Cosmere stuff here. Most of the ways that these different Shards could manifest could be described differently. Odium is trying very hard to describe his Shard as something different, and there's an argument there. But it depends on if you're like actually changing it or if you just want to call it something different. You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

On 16.05.2023 at 7:18 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He was shattered using the Dawnshards, which were the Commands used to make quite literally everything, so it's possible that the process of Shattering changed the nature of Adonalsium. He had access to pure, unpolarised, Intentless Investiture, but the process of Shattering, given the way Brandon talks about it, likely polarised sixteen aspects of Adonalsium against each other, and were then split into separate Shards.

Brandon also said that before the Shattering spren on Roshar were already associated with different parts of Adonalsium (mainly Honor and Cultivation), so the investiture Adonalsium had might be already polarized to some degree before the Shattering.

Spoiler

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

On 16.05.2023 at 7:18 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The powers don't combine, they remain separate. Harmony doesn't have Harmony-Investiture, but both Ruin and Preservation's Investiture, separate within his one Shard.

On 16.05.2023 at 7:18 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Sazed chose the name because he felt it matched the Intent the Shard came to have; He did not decide on the actual Intent the Shard ended up having. If his perception mattered so much that it determined the Shard's Intent, it would have become something like Creation, given that's how Sazed thinks of it during and after his Ascension.

But his perception matters - Discord. Sazed also wanted to keep both Ruin and Preservation separate, that's why Sazed became Harmony, not Creation. His Intent in the moment of Ascension prevented him from becoming something different than Harmony/Discord, something more unified like Creation.

Spoiler

chasmfriend's friend (Paraphrased)

My friend asked for Brandon to write something about Harmony in her Alloy of Law.

Brandon Sanderson

There's another name Harmony could go by if he weren't able to control the conflict between his halves… *to Zas* Have you guys figured that one out yet? Oh, I'm not going to say anything. You have it on recording… I was pretty sneaky with that one so I don't know if you have it or not.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

That's my whole argument. Sazed is doing a bad job as a dual Shard. He isn't a combination of Ruin and Preservation, and both of them still exist within him, separately, because he keeps them separate. That's the whole problem with Harmony, he isn't truly united to his core. But he could be and should be. You're doing a great job at augmenting your theory, you've raised some good points. I do fully understand what you're saying, and it does make a lot of sense.

5 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

True, but is being Harmony all that good? Harmony finds it very hard to act, because his Intent is about equilibrium, so anything going against that equilibrium goes against his Intent. At this point, Discord may actually be better than Harmony. There was a whole other thread discussing this very idea, given that one if the Terri's prophecies Alendi quotes in his logbook is "His name shall be Discord, but they shall love him for it". So for the Scadrians (and maybe exclusively for the Scadrians, given some of the things we see in Sixth of The Dusk and SP4), Discord may be a good thing

I fully agree with this and expect this will be the case in Era 3.

Underwater_Worldhopper · May 18, 2023

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I knew there was a place where I wanted to reply.

I noticed that you didn't respond, definitely missed your contributions You're like the easiest source of WoBs on here, so it's good to have your opinion on theories.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's why I'm saying that Sazed is doing a bad job as a dual Shard wielder. He keeps both of those Shards separate, views them as separate and that's why they're not combined into truly singular Shard. Which was his intent when he Ascended, HoA Ch 82:

The way he thinks about both Shards defines the Intent of Harmony

Interesting point. If Sazed is acting as a barrier between the two powers, then the whole Harmony Discord thing would only apply to a Hybrid Shard that keeps the Shards within them separate, and not all Hybrid Shards.

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He keeps them separate, during the Ascension he wanted to use them together, but as of TLM it is proven that Harmony favors Preservation and is suppressing Ruin, which is not very Harmonious. They're not working together anymore, they're separate but against each other.

So the smothering of Ruin is really what's driving him towards Discord. If Discord is just Harmony but with a strong leaning to Preservation, that really could be better for the Scadrians.

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The difference between Sazed and Rayse is that Rayse is holding a single Shard, while Sazed is holding two Shards. Sazed has much more wiggle room, which Rayse doesn't. And we KNOW that Harmony's Intent can be changed into Discord. So yes, actions and perception of a Vessel can affect a Shard so it would change the way it's manifesting itself. Also Rayse was handling Odium badly, he had been enslaved by the power not controlling it - which would severely limit the impact his perception would make. Sazed is still a young Shard, not influenced by his intent to that degree, having much greater impact over his Shard than Rayse.

Again, solid point. I think the truth might be somewhere in between our two ideas. Sazed is a bad Shardholder, and is keeping the two powers apart. Hybrid Shards, when keeping their component Shards separate, are forced into the Harmony-Discord/Balance-Imbalance situation.

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Brandon also said that before the Shattering spren on Roshar were already associated with different parts of Adonalsium (mainly Honor and Cultivation), so the investiture Adonalsium had might be already polarized to some degree before the Shattering.

I think that's more that Spren were still made of the original Intentless, Unpolarised Investiture, their nature as nature and forces personified just makes them closer to Adonalsium's aspect of Cultivation, which is why when Adonalsium is Shattered and all Investiture is polarised, they end up becoming polarised to Cultivation's Intent. Honor's Investiture in Spren ends up being something of a coincidence in this case, unless Honor's presence naturally flushed out other Investitures and replaced them with his own over time.

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But his perception matters - Discord. Sazed also wanted to keep both Ruin and Preservation separate, that's why Sazed became Harmony, not Creation. His Intent in the moment of Ascension prevented him from becoming something different than Harmony/Discord, something more unified like Creation.

Honestly, now that you explain it this way,you've convinced me. It makes sense, and it's internally sound. The Harmony-Discord thing is probably due to a Hybrid Shard keeping the Shards within them separate. It could still happen to other Hybrid Shards, but only if they do what Sazed did and prevent them from combining.

cometaryorbit · May 18, 2023

I don't think either combination of Shards we've seen is fully unifying them. Harmony was closer than the Dor, but he's having trouble now. But even the possibility of that means the Shards weren't really fully combined/unified.

Yes, they were combined in the sense that if Sazed died one combined-Shard, not separate Preservation and Ruin, would be left behind. But I think it's more like... soldering the two pieces together rather than fully reforging them. They are genuinely connected, but the connection is weaker than the original material, and there's a stress point where it can break.

I think the Shattering changed the nature of Investiture so that Shards are more stable individually.

alder24 · May 18, 2023

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You're like the easiest source of WoBs on here

Am I... an Archivist now?

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

So the smothering of Ruin is really what's driving him towards Discord. If Discord is just Harmony but with a strong leaning to Preservation, that really could be better for the Scadrians.

I believe it's one of few reasons. Another one is that Ruin's power is greater than Preservation. Discord might not be leaning to Preservation, at some point Sazed might not be able to suppress Ruin any longer, because it's stronger, and it will burst out making Discord leaning towards Ruin - which might not be a bad thing, Ruin isn't just about death, it's about entropy, change. Discord might drive change on Scadrial, and be able to act unlike Harmony. But there are many possibilities on this one.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think that's more that Spren were still made of the original Intentless, Unpolarised Investiture, their nature as nature and forces personified just makes them closer to Adonalsium's aspect of Cultivation, which is why when Adonalsium is Shattered and all Investiture is polarised, they end up becoming polarised to Cultivation's Intent. Honor's Investiture in Spren ends up being something of a coincidence in this case, unless Honor's presence naturally flushed out other Investitures and replaced them with his own over time.

Honor is also about natural laws, sprens are embodiments of natural laws, sprens were likely already leaning towards both Cultivation and Honor before the Shattering - however it worked in detail.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Interesting point. If Sazed is acting as a barrier between the two powers, then the whole Harmony Discord thing would only apply to a Hybrid Shard that keeps the Shards within them separate, and not all Hybrid Shards.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Again, solid point. I think the truth might be somewhere in between our two ideas. Sazed is a bad Shardholder, and is keeping the two powers apart. Hybrid Shards, when keeping their component Shards separate, are forced into the Harmony-Discord/Balance-Imbalance situation.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Honestly, now that you explain it this way,you've convinced me. It makes sense, and it's internally sound. The Harmony-Discord thing is probably due to a Hybrid Shard keeping the Shards within them separate. It could still happen to other Hybrid Shards, but only if they do what Sazed did and prevent them from combining.

I agree, both of our ideas might still work together, depending on individual circumstances, or it might be something in between those two. As I said, you did a fantastic job at explaining your points in detail, it was a nice discussion to have.

Underwater_Worldhopper · May 18, 2023

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Am I... an Archivist now?

Pretty much XD

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Honor is also about natural laws, sprens are embodiments of natural laws, sprens were likely already leaning towards both Cultivation and Honor before the Shattering - however it worked in detail.

Likely, but Brandon specifically calls out Cultivation, so Honor is probably involved in the way you said, just in a much smaller degree.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

cometaryorbit · May 18, 2023

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I believe it's one of few reasons. Another one is that Ruin's power is greater than Preservation.

Yeah. I think the problem Sazed has now is a combination of three things:

1) Ruin is stronger than Preservation;

2) Sazed is trying to prefer Preservation over Ruin, from both the TLM AA and his own wording - he's seeking a sword who can destroy in order to protect. Preservation is the goal, Ruin only a tool.

3) He's trying to maintain the balance by inaction. But inaction is actually not neutral, it's more Preservation.

I think he was fine at the beginning because his remaking the world was genuinely using the two powers in Harmony - he did satisfy both Intents. He saved the world, or at least the North (Preservation) but caused radical change, and almost doomed the South (Ruin). Sure, Sazed the Vessel didn't intend to wreck the South, but the Intent of Ruin was satisfied regardless. I wouldn't be surprised if his reaction to finding out what happened is part of what set him on his inaction path.

Possibly also because the atium Investiture hadn't recycled yet (300 years).

+robardin · May 22, 2023

On 5/18/2023 at 3:56 AM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

True, but is being Harmony all that good? Harmony finds it very hard to act, because his Intent is about equilibrium, so anything going against that equilibrium goes against his Intent. At this point, Discord may actually be better than Harmony. There was a whole other thread discussing this very idea, given that one if the Terri's prophecies Alendi quotes in his logbook is "His name shall be Discord, but they shall love him for it". So for the Scadrians (and maybe exclusively for the Scadrians, given some of the things we see in Sixth of The Dusk and SP4), Discord may be a good thing

Brandon has tried several times to write a story centered around heavy metal music and taking place in an "urban fantasy environment" - Songs of the Dead, that has been in different drafts/forms that didn't quite work and is presently "in limbo" - so maybe Mistborn Era 3 (the 1980s-ish era) will be his chance.

I mean, what's more metal a Shardic name than DiSCoRD? It'll be the lashing-out-at-everything phase that Sazed the Rebellious Terrisman never really went through in life, LOL.

Edited May 22, 2023 by robardin

Walter The Moral · May 24, 2023

On 5/22/2023 at 11:14 PM, robardin said:

I mean, what's more metal a Shardic name than DiSCoRD? It'll be the lashing-out-at-everything phase that Sazed the Rebellious Terrisman never really went through in life, LOL.

If we want to relate Discord to a type of music, look no further than the name: DISCOrd! King of the 80's music.

Preservation sucks, any single Shard's influence is a bad thing.

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