Mistborn V.S. 3rd Ideal Lightweaver

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No? Khriss says that affecting stone is one of the hardest things a soulcaster can do.

Stone that is old and already 'set in its ways' is difficult, but walls will be easier.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

"She's the best we've seen and is thus the best that there can be"

I can count the number of soulcasters shown on screen on one hand. And Jasnah is self-admittedly bad at making organic matter.

We have heard no hint of combat Soulcasting. Jasnah is an Elsecallar, giving her an advantage over every living Soulcaster besides someone with an Honorblade. Further, she is considered a perfect Elsecaller candidate by her spren. She has also spent years honing her abilities, and is of the Fourth ideal. a Lightweaver of the Third will be unable to match her unless they are the best of the best at Soulcasting.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Not in that scene.

Sorry, I was mixed up. Jasnah made oil around herself in a ten-yard radius. She drained multiple gemstones to do so, and that's with her at the Fourth ideal. Granite is more than 2x as dense, so it'll take even more Stormlight. All of that, for only a small chance at killing a Mistborn. Assuming the Lightweaver can pull off a ten yard radius of granite like Jasnah without giving any warning beforehand, that Electrum gives 3 seconds of futuresight, and that the Mistborn starts at the middle of the radius, It will be relatively easy to dodge. Normal human reaction time (not accounting for Pewter) is 0.19 seconds, so double that to be generous to the Radiant and the Mistborn has 2.62 seconds to move ten yards. So they have to move at ~3.816 yards/second or ~7.805 miles/hour. With a few coins scattered around, that's easy.

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Elsecallers are more attuned to the Cognitive realm, but we have no indication that they are better at soulcasting.

Aside from Brandon saying that it was 'possible' that a Lightweaver could replicate Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting, not likely.

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They managed to get Wandersail through it.

That hole was the size of a dozen pillars. Kaza only removed the tips of some underwater ones, and made a hole large enough for dinghies in the pillars above water.

33 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

My point was that skill is a spectrum, and that Vin, Kelsier, Elend, and Zane were all among the most skilled, and powerful, individuals.

Yes, but the average would be closer to Shan Elariel than that guy.

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Jasnah uses soulcasting differently. She can't teach Lightweavers how to do it.

So she uses it differently and we've seen no indication that Lightweavers can use it in combat at the Third ideal in the same way that Jasnah can at the Fourth, but you're assuming that the majority of them will be able to? 

[Frustration]

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Stone that is old and already 'set in its ways' is difficult, but walls will be easier.

Quote

"Stone seems to be uniformly willing to obey the commands of a Surgebinder attuned to Cohesion. This is curious, as stone is often the most difficult of materials to work with in soulcasting--even more difficult than living beings, depending on those beings emotional, mental, and spiritual states." -RoW page 1229.

I don't think what form the stone takes will matter that much.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

We have heard no hint of combat Soulcasting.

We'd heard nothing about combat flight until WoR either. Brandon has been intentionally keeping Transformation for the back half.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Jasnah is an Elsecallar, giving her an advantage over every living Soulcaster besides someone with an Honorblade. Further, she is considered a perfect Elsecaller candidate by her spren.

I fail to see how either of those helps her. Kaladin is basically the perfect Windrunner, but he isn't noticably stronger than others.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

She has also spent years honing her abilities, and is of the Fourth ideal. a Lightweaver of the Third will be unable to match her unless they are the best of the best at Soulcasting.

We have no indication that high oath levels make people more powerful with their surges.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Granite is more than 2x as dense, so it'll take even more Stormlight.

What does the density of the material have to do with stormlight consumption?

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

All of that, for only a small chance at killing a Mistborn. Assuming the Lightweaver can pull off a ten yard radius of granite like Jasnah without giving any warning beforehand, that Electrum gives 3 seconds of futuresight, and that the Mistborn starts at the middle of the radius, It will be relatively easy to dodge. Normal human reaction time (not accounting for Pewter) is 0.19 seconds, so double that to be generous to the Radiant and the Mistborn has 2.62 seconds to move ten yards. So they have to move at ~3.816 yards/second or ~7.805 miles/hour. With a few coins scattered around, that's easy.

Even assuming the instant they realize that their shadow stopped moving they conclude soulcasting and move(which they wouldn't as unlike Atium electrum does not give enhanced mental abilities) they likely won't entirely get clear, especially with the air pulling in. And that's assuming that ten meters is the max range, and not something Jasnah decided to keep her forces safe.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Aside from Brandon saying that it was 'possible' that a Lightweaver could replicate Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting, not likely.

And that's them being better at soulcasting as a whole not having small differences that manifest as different strengths because?

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

That hole was the size of a dozen pillars. Kaza only removed the tips of some underwater ones, and made a hole large enough for dinghies in the pillars above water.

So where'd the opening come from, and where's the hole she made when she turned herself into smoke?

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Yes, but the average would be closer to Shan Elariel than that guy.

Average would be closer to what we see Jasnah do than Shallan.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

So she uses it differently and we've seen no indication that Lightweavers can use it in combat at the Third ideal in the same way that Jasnah can at the Fourth, but you're assuming that the majority of them will be able to? 

Other than Shallan who intentionally suppressed the ability, how many Lightweavers have we seen in combat?

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

My point was that skill is a spectrum, and that Vin, Kelsier, Elend, and Zane were all among the most skilled, and powerful, individuals.

And Shallan is the most powerful and skilled Lightweaver in terms of utilizing her Surges. She picks up Soulcasting instantly like you Saud but that's clearly not normal as earlier in RoW a point is made that other Lightweavers are still struggling with it, and none of them come close to being as good at illusions as her. 

[therunner]

5 hours ago, StanLemon said:

And Shallan is the most powerful and skilled Lightweaver in terms of utilizing her Surges. She picks up Soulcasting instantly like you Saud but that's clearly not normal as earlier in RoW a point is made that other Lightweavers are still struggling with it, and none of them come close to being as good at illusions as her. 

Actually, Shallan is only better at Illusions, in RoW she mentions that other Lightweavers are better at Soulcasting then she is, despite being of lower Oaths.

So, when it comes to Soulcasting Shallan is an example of below average Lightweaver.

6 hours ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

So she uses it differently and we've seen no indication that Lightweavers can use it in combat at the Third ideal in the same way that Jasnah can at the Fourth, but you're assuming that the majority of them will be able to? 

Shallan, below average at Soulcasting, and not yet knowing what is going on was able to use it when stressed out to make a hole in the hull of a ship.
Not bad for being under pressure and not begin practiced with her abilities.

[Letryx13]

I'm not sure we have enough data on this to really determine this one.  Jasnah is the only SoulCasting Radiant we've seen in combat, and she's a different order. Some LightWeavers like Vatha seem to be very talented at it, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume they could fight using SoulCasting.  Maybe SoulCast them while in ShadesMar?  I'd be willing to bet they have the potential to defeat a MistBorn, but until we actually see a LightWeaver's (most likely Shallan's) full potential, I don't think we can really say for sure who'd win.

[NameIess]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I don't think what form the stone takes will matter that much.

I am aware of what Khriss said, but we also know that the age of stone and its location can affect how difficult it is to Soulcast. Kaza noted that the stone in the pillars, which had been Soulcasted, wanted to be air again. Jasnah noted that the stone on the ground of the battlefield in RoW was content and would be difficult to change. So stone that has not recently been changed is more difficult to Soulcast. That makes sense. It would be difficult to Soulcast Urithiru, for example, but a building that had just been made, quite difficult.

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

We'd heard nothing about combat flight until WoR either. Brandon has been intentionally keeping Transformation for the back half.

The back half that features Jasnah more heavily?

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I fail to see how either of those helps her. Kaladin is basically the perfect Windrunner, but he isn't noticably stronger than others.

Is that a joke?

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

We have no indication that high oath levels make people more powerful with their surges.

Yes we do. Kaladin at First ideal nearly killed himself pulling a ton of arrows to him. At Third, he held back a Highstorm. At Fourth, he casually made a hole in one. As a Radiant's connection to their spren increases, their powers increase.

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

What does the density of the material have to do with stormlight consumption?

Making the same volume of a material that has 2 to 3 times higher density will make an object with 2 to 3 times more mass, and therefore it will require 2 to 3 times more Stormlight, because you are transforming 2 to 3 times more material.

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Even assuming the instant they realize that their shadow stopped moving they conclude soulcasting and move(which they wouldn't as unlike Atium electrum does not give enhanced mental abilities) they likely won't entirely get clear, especially with the air pulling in. And that's assuming that ten meters is the max range, and not something Jasnah decided to keep her forces safe.

What part of my post do you disagree with? The air won't pull in until the soulcasting is complete, so the worst that it will do is make the Mistborn bonk their head on stone. Do you disagree that a Mistborn could move at 7.8 miles/hour? A human can run faster than that. Even twenty meters should be possible. Mistborn can move at 16 miles/hour as long as they have anchors around. And the Stormlight cost of that much stone will be massive. Square cube law, and you have to make it a sphere unless you want the Mistborn to just fly above it, which we don't have indication that Jasnah did. Is it the reaction time? Even if we give them an entire second to react, they still only have to move at 10 miles/hour, and they could literally just sprint that with Pewter. 

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And that's them being better at soulcasting as a whole not having small differences that manifest as different strengths because?

And that's not them being better at soulcasting as a whole because?

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So where'd the opening come from, and where's the hole she made when she turned herself into smoke?

Her hole is gone, probably fixed by the Sleepless. They removed a dozen spikes before the Wandersail got there, in order to let them be tricked. No other explanation makes sense. Kaza's hole in one or two spikes did not magically grow into the complete removal of several of the massive spikes that she explicitly said were too big for her to Soulcast.

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Average would be closer to what we see Jasnah do than Shallan.

I heavily disagree. Lightweavers in general focus on Illusions and Spiritual Soulcasting. Jasnah has been focusing almost solely on Soulcasting for years. She is of the Fourth ideal and has been noted as a perfect Elsecaller candidate. She is far beyond the average Lightweaver in skill. Comparing her to the average Lightweaver would be like comparing Szeth to the average Windrunner.

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Other than Shallan who intentionally suppressed the ability, how many Lightweavers have we seen in combat?

We've seen them training for combat using illusions and not Soulcasting.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Shallan, below average at Soulcasting, and not yet knowing what is going on was able to use it when stressed out to make a hole in the hull of a ship.
Not bad for being under pressure and not begin practiced with her abilities.

She took a very long time to do so. She had to have a lengthy conversation with the ship, and got lucky by appealing to the correct thing, its desire to serve. A few hours later, she couldn't even transform a stick, as we all know.

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Actually, Shallan is only better at Illusions, in RoW she mentions that other Lightweavers are better at Soulcasting then she is, despite being of lower Oaths.

So, when it comes to Soulcasting Shallan is an example of below average Lightweaver.

The part of the conversation you missed is at the end of RoW she has little to no trouble Soulcasting after she stops repressing herself. This shows she could always Soulcast and it wasn't for lack of skill or talent but a mental block. She's not really a bellow average Soulcaster at all. Admittedly it is in Shadesmar where Soulcasting is easier but she still had absolutely no trouble in that scene

Edited December 19, 2022 by StanLemon

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Average would be closer to what we see Jasnah do than Shallan.

Jasnah who is 4th Ideal Elsecaller, order much better at Soulcasting and more focused on that than Lightweavers, order that does it differently than Lightweavers, is closer to average? It's like saying that Rashek is closer to average Mistborn.

Shallan is below average, but Jasnah is far above average.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

I am aware of what Khriss said, but we also know that the age of stone and its location can affect how difficult it is to Soulcast. Kaza noted that the stone in the pillars, which had been Soulcasted, wanted to be air again. Jasnah noted that the stone on the ground of the battlefield in RoW was content and would be difficult to change. So stone that has not recently been changed is more difficult to Soulcast. That makes sense. It would be difficult to Soulcast Urithiru, for example, but a building that had just been made, quite difficult.

I'm assuming you mean quite easy on that last line.

Stone is known to be harder to soulcast than living beings, even if some is easier that makes it about equal to living beings.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

The back half that features Jasnah more heavily?

Yep.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Is that a joke?

Nope. Kaladin isn't faster than the others, he can't lash larger objects with the same amount of stormlight, his full lashings aren't stronger.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Yes we do. Kaladin at First ideal nearly killed himself pulling a ton of arrows to him. At Third, he held back a Highstorm. At Fourth, he casually made a hole in one. As a Radiant's connection to their spren increases, their powers increase.

He's been making tunnels in the wind(including highstorms) since OB(page 322 and 602). And in RoW he didn't do that, the Windspren did.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Making the same volume of a material that has 2 to 3 times higher density will make an object with 2 to 3 times more mass, and therefore it will require 2 to 3 times more Stormlight, because you are transforming 2 to 3 times more material.

Considering that mass isn't strictly conserved I have to disagree.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

And that's not them being better at soulcasting as a whole because?

Because Windrunners aren't better with Lashings, Lightweavers aren't better with Illumination, etc.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Her hole is gone, probably fixed by the Sleepless. They removed a dozen spikes before the Wandersail got there, in order to let them be tricked. No other explanation makes sense. Kaza's hole in one or two spikes did not magically grow into the complete removal of several of the massive spikes that she explicitly said were too big for her to Soulcast.

Back up.

The Sleepless, repaired, a giant hole in solid stone, to the point it couldn't be seen, and also removed massive stone pillars that created a perfect barrier around the island they didn't want people to get to, the pillars being larger than buildings.

How?

2 hours ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

 and has been noted as a perfect Elsecaller candidate. 

Being good for the ideals doesn't make you more powerful. 

2 hours ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

I heavily disagree. Lightweavers in general focus on Illusions and Spiritual Soulcasting. Jasnah has been focusing almost solely on Soulcasting for years. She is of the Fourth ideal and has been noted as a perfect Elsecaller candidate. She is far beyond the average Lightweaver in skill. Comparing her to the average Lightweaver would be like comparing Szeth to the average Windrunner.

Well if you want to go by focuses then yes the average Windrunner would be like Szeth, because they spend a lot time focused on learning their weapons. And you know that all Lightweacers focuswd exclusively on Illumination and completely ignored their other ability, because?

2 hours ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

We've seen them training for combat using illusions and not Soulcasting.

And because we didn't see it means it didn't happen?

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Jasnah who is 4th Ideal Elsecaller, order much better at Soulcasting and more focused on that than Lightweavers, order that does it differently than Lightweavers, is closer to average?

Where does it say elsecallers focus more on Soulcasting than lightweavers do?

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'm assuming you mean quite easy on that last line.

Stone is known to be harder to soulcast than living beings, even if some is easier that makes it about equal to living beings.

It can be harder than living beings, depending on their emotional state and whatnot. I'm guessing that means that at the peak of stone's Soulcasting resistance, it can be more difficult than Soulcasting a living being at the lowest point of its resistance. Walls are not anywhere near that peak.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yep.

So we won't see more combat Soulcasting until Jasnah, the only person we've seen to be capable of it, becomes more of a main character.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Nope. Kaladin isn't faster than the others, he can't lash larger objects with the same amount of stormlight, his full lashings aren't stronger.

Kaladin is dramatically more skilled than any Windrunner. He can do things (like keeping up with Leshwi, holding back a Highstorm) that they simply cannot do. Jasnah is dramatically more skilled than any other Radiant Soulcaster. She can do things (like Soulcasting at a distance, Soulcasting during combat) that no other Radiant Soulcaster can do. Skill in Soulcasting is what allows Jasnah to do what she does

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

He's been making tunnels in the wind(including highstorms) since OB(page 322 and 602). And in RoW he didn't do that, the Windspren did.

He only started doing it after reaching the Third ideal, and he used Windspren for the Highstorm in OB too. The higher the ideal, the more Stormlight a Radiant can handle, the easier it becomes to use their powers.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Considering that mass isn't strictly conserved I have to disagree.

I don't understand how that matters. Could you explain further?

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Back up.

The Sleepless, repaired, a giant hole in solid stone, to the point it couldn't be seen, and also removed massive stone pillars that created a perfect barrier around the island they didn't want people to get to, the pillars being larger than buildings.

How?

Irrelevant to the argument. The hole cannot have been made by Kaza, therefore someone else must have done it. Whether or not the Sleepless did it is just speculation on my part, and has no bearing on the fact that the two holes are completely different.

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Being good for the ideals doesn't make you more powerful. 

Not on its own, no, but Jasnah is powerful, and dedicated to bettering herself and her powers. She's been practicing with Soulcasting for years.

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Well if you want to go by focuses then yes the average Windrunner would be like Szeth, because they spend a lot time focused on learning their weapons. And you know that all Lightweacers focuswd exclusively on Illumination and completely ignored their other ability, because?

Szeth is more skilled than the average Windrunner. vastly more skilled. Unless you think Skar or Sigzil can take him?

I'm not arguing that the Lightweavers focus exclusively on Illumination, but as Kaladin focused on his basic lashings and flight more than his other powers, Lightweavers focus mainly on illusions. Soulcasting is just a secondary power to them, from what we've seen.

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Where does it say elsecallers focus more on Soulcasting than lightweavers do?

Jasnah's first developed power: Soulcasting. Shallan's first developed power: Lightweaving. Do you have any evidence against it?

[Primeival Chaos]

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Where does it say elsecallers focus more on Soulcasting than lightweavers do?

This is from the Coppermind

Spoiler

Transformation can be manipulated to change an object into one of the ten essences. To Soulcast, the Lightweaver shifts their perception to see into the Cognitive Realm, and communicates with the Cognitive aspect of the object they want to transform. This is normally done through direct contact with an object, however, can be performed from a distance. Elsecallers are more skilled at doing this, though it is not impossible for a Lightweaver to be able to Soulcast from afar.

This seems to imply that Elsecallers are naturally more skilled at Soulcasting than Lightweavers, which is supported by what we have seen with both sides. We do only have one Elsecaller on screen, but the Lightweavers that we have seen seem to be way less skilled than Jasnah, even if Jasnah is above average.

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Primeval Ookla said:

This is from the Coppermind

  Reveal hidden contents

Transformation can be manipulated to change an object into one of the ten essences. To Soulcast, the Lightweaver shifts their perception to see into the Cognitive Realm, and communicates with the Cognitive aspect of the object they want to transform. This is normally done through direct contact with an object, however, can be performed from a distance. Elsecallers are more skilled at doing this, though it is not impossible for a Lightweaver to be able to Soulcast from afar.

This seems to imply that Elsecallers are naturally more skilled at Soulcasting than Lightweavers, which is supported by what we have seen with both sides. We do only have one Elsecaller on screen, but the Lightweavers that we have seen seem to be way less skilled than Jasnah, even if Jasnah is above average.

You do realize that fans write the coppermind articles? I could go in and rewrite thar right now. 

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

It can be harder than living beings, depending on their emotional state and whatnot. I'm guessing that means that at the peak of stone's Soulcasting resistance, it can be more difficult than Soulcasting a living being at the lowest point of its resistance. Walls are not anywhere near that peak.

That's not what it says, it says that stone is more difficult, and then adds modifiers meaning stone is harder under most circumstances.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

So we won't see more combat Soulcasting until Jasnah, the only person we've seen to be capable of it, becomes more of a main character.

That's like saying that because we won't see Tension used until Taln, who has had thousands of years to practice becomes a main character, that only someone with thousands of years of practice can use it. Brandon is specifically keeping certain surges off screen until the later books so that he has new powers to show off.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Kaladin is dramatically more skilled than any Windrunner. He can do things (like keeping up with Leshwi, holding back a Highstorm) that they simply cannot do. Jasnah is dramatically more skilled than any other Radiant Soulcaster. She can do things (like Soulcasting at a distance, Soulcasting during combat) that no other Radiant Soulcaster can do. Skill in Soulcasting is what allows Jasnah to do what she does

Skill and power are two vastly different things.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

I don't understand how that matters. Could you explain further?

Sure, when Jasnah turnes the rock into smoke in WoK if mass was conserved it would have killed everyone in the hallway instantly. But it wasn't, likewise when corpses are soulcast into stone they don't shrink. I don't think the mass of the created object is proportional to the Stormlight used.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Szeth is more skilled than the average Windrunner. vastly more skilled. Unless you think Skar or Sigzil can take him?

I'm saying that traditional focus of an order doesn't result in specific skillsets. 

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Jasnah's first developed power: Soulcasting. Shallan's first developed power: Lightweaving. Do you have any evidence against it?

That's entirely done to keep from overwhelming the reader, not because one surge is stronger.

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

So I've noticed a pattern in the way that the Radiants learn their surges. They seem to learn their anti-clockwise surge before their clockwise surge?

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Overlord Jebus

Excellent, everyone thought I was a crazy person!

Brandon Sanderson

They do tend to-- Now, I'm gonna give you some behind the sausage stuff on that. That is partially for writing expediency reasons.

Overlord Jebus

How do you mean?

Brandon Sanderson

I designed that partially because I didn't want to overwhelm people with too many magic systems at once so I came up with a little bit of a pattern so that I could have a little bit of an in-world reason why we were slowing that down. It's not a hard fast rule, it's something that I've kept to in order to not overwhelm readers so it's more of form following function than the other way around.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[Primeival Chaos]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You do realize that fans write the coppermind articles? I could go in and rewrite thar right now. 

Fair, but it is supported by this WoB that has already been shared

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. 

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Elsecallers are better at Soulcasting than other people that can Soulcast. He said that it's not impossible for a Lightweaver to do, but based on how he worded it, it seems unlikely. Again, this is backed by the books- we see very few Lightweavers soulcasting at any level even somewhat close to the base minimum that Jasnah can do. Yes, it is a small sample size, but it is still a significant percentage. 

I think that the best weapon that a Lightweaver has against a Mistborn is illusions. However, Lightweavers are much less combat focused. Mistborn, in my opinion, would win most of the time in a flat out battle.

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's not what it says, it says that stone is more difficult, and then adds modifiers meaning stone is harder under most circumstances.

No, it says stone can be more difficult, if the modifiers are in its favor.

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's like saying that because we won't see Tension used until Taln, who has had thousands of years to practice becomes a main character, that only someone with thousands of years of practice can use it. Brandon is specifically keeping certain surges off screen until the later books so that he has new powers to show off.

We've seen combat Soulcasting, we just haven't seen anyone but Jasnah use it.

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Skill and power are two vastly different things.

I agree, but I am not arguing that Lightweavers are incapable of replicating Jasnah's feats. I am arguing that the average Lightweaver would not have the skill to replicate her feats. I do believe that the skill a Lightweaver would to replicate those feats is higher than Jasnah's, but even if it didn't Jasnah is above the average Lightweaver in skill.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Sure, when Jasnah turnes the rock into smoke in WoK if mass was conserved it would have killed everyone in the hallway instantly. But it wasn't, likewise when corpses are soulcast into stone they don't shrink. I don't think the mass of the created object is proportional to the Stormlight used.

Conservation of mass has nothing to do with Stormlight use, except that Stormlight will have to be converted into mass to make up the extra, which is a point against your argument. We also do see that objects with more mass take more Stormlight, as Jasnah repairing the wall of Thaylen city took ungodly amounts of it, while soulcasting people and walls took just about nothing by comparison. So mass is directly proportional to Stormlight used.

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'm saying that traditional focus of an order doesn't result in specific skillsets. 

What? I don't understand.

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's entirely done to keep from overwhelming the reader, not because one surge is stronger.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon's reasoning for putting it into the books has nothing to do with its actual existence. In general, Lightweavers learn Lightweaving first, and Soulcasting second. Additionally, Lightweavers generally don't train Soulcasting as much as they do Lightweaving. Therefore, the average Lightweaver will not have the skill in Soulcasting that Jasnah does.

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Fair, but it is supported by this WoB that has already been shared

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. 

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Elsecallers are better at Soulcasting than other people that can Soulcast. He said that it's not impossible for a Lightweaver to do, but based on how he worded it, it seems unlikely. Again, this is backed by the books- we see very few Lightweavers soulcasting at any level even somewhat close to the base minimum that Jasnah can do. Yes, it is a small sample size, but it is still a significant percentage. 

I think that the best weapon that a Lightweaver has against a Mistborn is illusions. However, Lightweavers are much less combat focused. Mistborn, in my opinion, would win most of the time in a flat out battle.

It says they are betrer at soulcasting at a diatance, not all soulcasting.

18 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

No, it says stone can be more difficult, if the modifiers are in its favor.

"...stone is often among the most difficult of materials to work with in soulcasting--even more so than living beings..."

18 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

We've seen combat Soulcasting, we just haven't seen anyone but Jasnah use it.

Ergo you mist be just as skilled as Jasnah to do it, nevermind the fact that it's probably easier to soulcast at a distance than it is to burn words onto a page.

18 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I agree, but I am not arguing that Lightweavers are incapable of replicating Jasnah's feats. I am arguing that the average Lightweaver would not have the skill to replicate her feats. I do believe that the skill a Lightweaver would to replicate those feats is higher than Jasnah's, but even if it didn't Jasnah is above the average Lightweaver in skill.

And you know Jasnah is above average lightweaver in skill because?

18 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Conservation of mass has nothing to do with Stormlight use, except that Stormlight will have to be converted into mass to make up the extra, which is a point against your argument. We also do see that objects with more mass take more Stormlight, as Jasnah repairing the wall of Thaylen city took ungodly amounts of it, while soulcasting people and walls took just about nothing by comparison. So mass is directly proportional to Stormlight used.

The wall had more volume as well as mass. I fully believe that it would take the same amount of Stormlight to make the wall out of stone as it was bronze.

18 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

What? I don't understand.

Windrunners are traditionally one of the most martial orders, but that doesn't mean that their average skill level is above and beyond what anyone else xan do. Likewise, just because from what we have seen, lightweavers spend more time on Illumination, does not mean their average is incapable of using Teansformation effectively.

18 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Brandon's reasoning for putting it into the books has nothing to do with its actual existence. In general, Lightweavers learn Lightweaving first, and Soulcasting second. Additionally, Lightweavers generally don't train Soulcasting as much as they do Lightweaving. Therefore, the average Lightweaver will not have the skill in Soulcasting that Jasnah does.

What? The order they get surges has nothing to do with their strength in those surges. No more than the fact that Kaladin got Adhesion first makes him better at Adhesion than Gravitation.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[Primeival Chaos]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

nevermind the fact that it's probably easier to soulcast at a distance than it is to burn words onto a page

Do you have proof? Or is that just speculation?

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No more than the fact that Kaladin got Adhesion first makes him better at Adhesion than Gravitation.

Kaladin didn't get Adhesion first. He was just unaware that he could use Gravitation.

 

Not to mention that the Mistborn could do constant duralumin level Soothings or Riotings while within a Bendalloy bubble.

Spoiler

Failsafe

If one were to Riot or Soothe out of a cadmium bubble or a bendalloy bubble, would the emotional Allomancy be effectual? If so, how would it be affected by the speed bubble, and how would that work in reverse?

Brandon Sanderson

If you were to... Someone's inside a bubble, and you're shooting Allomancy into it from outside, would it have an effect? The answer to that would be yes. Shooting out of it should work also. It is going to be affected though. I think depending on the speed of it, you're gonna end up with a stretching or condensing of it. If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit. And if you're doing it from outside in, and they're moving very fast, you're gonna have a lesser effect.

Questioner

Would it have some randomness, like a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

You probably wouldn't be able to target... No, you would be able to. You would be fine. You can do kind of a cone, and things like that. It might be hard to hit the specific individual, but it wouldn't be as much trouble as a bullet.

Questioner

What about with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about duralumin is, if you wanted to extra duralumin it, what you'd have to do is eat some within a speed bubble, use it, then eat some more, then use it. You could therefore kind of multiply up, but yeah. So yes, you could do that, but you'd have to do it multiple times.

spectral.limina

Just to confirm, is that a fast bubble or slow bubble?

Brandon Sanderson

That'd be a fast bubble, cause you're piling it up. More time is passing for you than people outside. Basically, you're doing five times duralumin push in one burst. It could probably get pretty dangerous, some people's emotions.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

I feel like this is an insane power for Mistborns, one that is very underrated. Constant duralumin level pushes or pulls on your emotions could incapacitate you. This is all without the cost of actually using duralumin, as you would only need to be in a speed bubble. A carefully timed Soothe or Riot at this level could mess the Lightweaver up in crucial moments. For example, the Lightweaver is swinging their Sprenblade at the Mistborn. The Mistborn could put a bendalloy bubble up, get out of the way of the Blade, and Riot/Soothe the emotions, probably making the Lightweaver lose their concentration. They drop their guard. The Mistborn then leeches the stunned Lightweaver or lays into them with knives or pewter-fueled punches. 

 

I just don't see how a Lightweaver could plausibly beat a Mistborn without a good deal of luck or backup, based on what we have seen and what is within the realms of plausibility.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Primeival Chaos

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Do you have proof? Or is that just speculation?

Speculation heavily supported by known mechanics of soulcasting.

10 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Kaladin didn't get Adhesion first. He was just unaware that he could use Gravitation.

Shallan didn't get Illumination first. She was just unaware that she could use Transformation.

11 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Not to mention that the Mistborn could do constant duralumin level Soothings or Riotings while within a Bendalloy bubble.

  Reveal hidden contents

Failsafe

If one were to Riot or Soothe out of a cadmium bubble or a bendalloy bubble, would the emotional Allomancy be effectual? If so, how would it be affected by the speed bubble, and how would that work in reverse?

Brandon Sanderson

If you were to... Someone's inside a bubble, and you're shooting Allomancy into it from outside, would it have an effect? The answer to that would be yes. Shooting out of it should work also. It is going to be affected though. I think depending on the speed of it, you're gonna end up with a stretching or condensing of it. If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit. And if you're doing it from outside in, and they're moving very fast, you're gonna have a lesser effect.

Questioner

Would it have some randomness, like a bullet?

Brandon Sanderson

You probably wouldn't be able to target... No, you would be able to. You would be fine. You can do kind of a cone, and things like that. It might be hard to hit the specific individual, but it wouldn't be as much trouble as a bullet.

Questioner

What about with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about duralumin is, if you wanted to extra duralumin it, what you'd have to do is eat some within a speed bubble, use it, then eat some more, then use it. You could therefore kind of multiply up, but yeah. So yes, you could do that, but you'd have to do it multiple times.

spectral.limina

Just to confirm, is that a fast bubble or slow bubble?

Brandon Sanderson

That'd be a fast bubble, cause you're piling it up. More time is passing for you than people outside. Basically, you're doing five times duralumin push in one burst. It could probably get pretty dangerous, some people's emotions.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

I feel like this is an insane power for Mistborns, one that is very underrated. Constant duralumin level pushes or pulls on your emotions could incapacitate you. This is all without the cost of actually using duralumin, as you would only need to be in a speed bubble. A carefully timed Soothe or Riot at this level could mess the Lightweaver up in crucial moments. For example, the Lightweaver is swinging their Sprenblade at the Mistborn. The Mistborn could put a bendalloy bubble up, get out of the way of the Blade, and Riot/Soothe the emotions, probably making the Lightweaver lose their concentration. They drop their guard. The Mistborn then leeches the stunned Lightweaver or lays into them with knives or pewter-fueled punches.

That would require them to duralumin burn bendalloy, and not to mention that they would need to ingest all of their metals to do this.

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

"...stone is often among the most difficult of materials to work with in soulcasting--even more so than living beings..."

"is often" "depending on those beings' emotional, mental, and spiritual states". Notice that she doesn't say humans, and she doesn't say that all stone is that hard. The stone that Stonewards and Willshapers will be using most of the time is stone from the ground, the kind that is hardest to Soulcast. That doesn't mean that some wall that's been up for a few years will be just as hard as stone that has been in place for over a hundred years.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Ergo you mist be just as skilled as Jasnah to do it, nevermind the fact that it's probably easier to soulcast at a distance than it is to burn words onto a page.

Is it? Jasnah did one casually, and the other after preparing herself. And it's even harder for Lightweavers than Elsecallers.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And you know Jasnah is above average lightweaver in skill because?

Because she can soulcast words into a page, soulcast at a distance, soulcast humans, and combat soulcast. She focuses almost solely on Soulcasting, has had years of practice, and has the perfect intellect and personality for Soulcasting.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The wall had more volume as well as mass. I fully believe that it would take the same amount of Stormlight to make the wall out of stone as it was bronze.

Why would it be dependent on volume? You do realize that mass not being conserved means that you need to make Stormlight into matter, right? Therefore, the more mass you Soulcast the more Stormlight you use. It just doesn't make sense to have it be dependent on volume.

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Windrunners are traditionally one of the most martial orders, but that doesn't mean that their average skill level is above and beyond what anyone else xan do. Likewise, just because from what we have seen, lightweavers spend more time on Illumination, does not mean their average is incapable of using Teansformation effectively.

I am not saying that their order is incapable of using Transformation effectively, I am saying that the average of their order is below that of the Elsecallers, and that Jasnah is above the average of the Elsecallers. Therefore we cannot assume that they will be able to pull off her feats with equal ease.

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

What? The order they get surges has nothing to do with their strength in those surges. No more than the fact that Kaladin got Adhesion first makes him better at Adhesion than Gravitation.

Lightweavers get illusions first, and illusions are their 'primary' power. They can Soulcast, but that's not what they focus on or are naturally skilled at, in general. Since we are talking about the average, the general rule is what matters.

 

I think we are getting unfocused. We are arguing about Soulcasting because you claimed it would be an unstoppable technique. I have given reasons that a Mistborn would be able to avoid such an attack, and you have not refuted my reasons. Unless you can, this argument isn't really releveant, because regardless of the outcome attacking the Mistborn by turning the air around you to stone would only result in a massive waste of Stormlight, as you'd have to Soulcast the stone back to air in order to escape.

[Primeival Chaos]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That would require them to duralumin burn bendalloy, and not to mention that they would need to ingest all of their metals to do this.

That's exactly what this WoB is talking about. "If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit" (Referring to Soothing or Rioting). Cheap duralumin level Soothing or Rioting without actual duralumin. The Lightweaver would never be able to concentrate. It would be debilitating, especially in a vital moment.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

"is often" "depending on those beings' emotional, mental, and spiritual states". Notice that she doesn't say humans, and she doesn't say that all stone is that hard. The stone that Stonewards and Willshapers will be using most of the time is stone from the ground, the kind that is hardest to Soulcast. That doesn't mean that some wall that's been up for a few years will be just as hard as stone that has been in place for over a hundred years.

No, they would not be the same, but both would be on par with, or harder to affect than living beings.

6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Is it? Jasnah did one casually, and the other after preparing herself.

No she was pretty casual about soulcadting things away from her.

10 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Because she can soulcast words into a page, soulcast at a distance, soulcast humans, and combat soulcast. She focuses almost solely on Soulcasting, has had years of practice, and has the perfect intellect and personality for Soulcasting.

All soulcasters are, by their nature used to dealing with resistance. Just because some things are harder doesn't mean that only the most skilled can do them.

7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Why would it be dependent on volume? You do realize that mass not being conserved means that you need to make Stormlight into matter, right? Therefore, the more mass you Soulcast the more Stormlight you use. It just doesn't make sense to have it be dependent on volume.

It's just a change in the Cognitive/Spiritual realm, that reaults in a physical change. If it actually provided the energy needed for nuclear fusion Urithiru would have the power to destroy planets.

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I am not saying that their order is incapable of using Transformation effectively, I am saying that the average of their order is below that of the Elsecallers, and that Jasnah is above the average of the Elsecallers. Therefore we cannot assume that they will be able to pull off her feats with equal ease.

And Jasnah is above average for Elsecallers too now? Mathematically she IS the average.

11 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Lightweavers get illusions first, and illusions are their 'primary' power. They can Soulcast, but that's not what they focus on or are naturally skilled at, in general. Since we are talking about the average, the general rule is what matters.

Source, for any of this? Not just what we have seen so far I have gone over why that is a narrative choice rather than an actual restriction on their power. What is the source for saying that Lightweavers are better at Illumination than Transformation?

14 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I think we are getting unfocused. We are arguing about Soulcasting because you claimed it would be an unstoppable technique. I have given reasons that a Mistborn would be able to avoid such an attack, and you have not refuted my reasons. Unless you can, this argument isn't really releveant, because regardless of the outcome attacking the Mistborn by turning the air around you to stone would only result in a massive waste of Stormlight, as you'd have to Soulcast the stone back to air in order to escape.

The Mistborn would need to always burn electrum to see if their about to be trapped, and electrum is one of the fastest burning metals, they will run out long before the Lightweaver is unable to soulcast.

13 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

That's exactly what this WoB is talking about. "If you're doing it from inside a bubble, you could probably effectively get something like a duralumin hit" (Referring to Soothing or Rioting). Cheap duralumin level Soothing or Rioting without actual duralumin. The Lightweaver would never be able to concentrate. It would be debilitating, especially in a vital moment.

It also mentions difficulty focusing, and where Radiants will already resist...

It would probably work, but I doubt it would be as effective as you imply. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, they would not be the same, but both would be on par with, or harder to affect than living beings.

I don't read it that way at all, but it doesn't really matter.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No she was pretty casual about soulcadting things away from her.

She soulcasted a human relatively easily, but took a deep breath before soulcasting the two thieves as they were running away.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

All soulcasters are, by their nature used to dealing with resistance. Just because some things are harder doesn't mean that only the most skilled can do them.

Okay, so you addressed one of my points, partially. The resistance of a human's soul is much more powerful than that of a piece of paper. What about the rest of the examples?

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It's just a change in the Cognitive/Spiritual realm, that reaults in a physical change. If it actually provided the energy needed for nuclear fusion Urithiru would have the power to destroy planets.

A change in the Cognitive/Spiritual explains why you don't need to use a particle accelerator, but it doesn't explain where the extra mass comes from. Or why it would be dependent on volume instead of mass.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And Jasnah is above average for Elsecallers too now? Mathematically she IS the average.

If we use the modern-day averages, then the fight couldn't happen. So we have to speculate on the average of the orders when they were at their peak, and Jasnah is clearly above that, as I have been arguing for the past however long.

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Source, for any of this? Not just what we have seen so far I have gone over why that is a narrative choice rather than an actual restriction on their power. What is the source for saying that Lightweavers are better at Illumination than Transformation?

Shallan is better at illusions. Vathah is better at illusions. Literally every Lightweaver we've seen is better at illusions. Do you have a source that says they're not?

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The Mistborn would need to always burn electrum to see if their about to be trapped, and electrum is one of the fastest burning metals, they will run out long before the Lightweaver is unable to soulcast.

Source for electrum burning so quickly? Even if it does, the amount of Stormlight required to pull off the stone trick is much too high to be spammed, and if Mistborn can have enough Atium for an extended fight, they can easily have more than enough electrum.

[Primeival Chaos]

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The Mistborn would need to always burn electrum to see if their about to be trapped, and electrum is one of the fastest burning metals, they will run out long before the Lightweaver is unable to soulcast.

This is still assuming that the Lightweaver is able to soulcast large areas without touching. It is technically possible, but it's like saying that the Mistborn is a savant with every metal and knows each one interacts, including time bubbles. It can happen, but only with lots of practice and dedication that I'm assuming doesn't happen with the average Mistborn/Lightweaver

Edited December 19, 2022 by Primeival Chaos

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Okay, so you addressed one of my points, partially. The resistance of a human's soul is much more powerful than that of a piece of paper. What about the rest of the examples?

She was able to shove a man, and turn not only him but the people he touched into crystal, and that was before Dalinar opened a perpendicularity. She didn't stop and concentrate she simply shoved him.

1 hour ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

A change in the Cognitive/Spiritual explains why you don't need to use a particle accelerator, but it doesn't explain where the extra mass comes from. Or why it would be dependent on volume instead of mass.

Perception, most people will assume it took more effort to move a larger object regardless of their densities.

1 hour ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

If we use the modern-day averages, then the fight couldn't happen. So we have to speculate on the average of the orders when they were at their peak, and Jasnah is clearly above that, as I have been arguing for the past however long.

And how do you know Jasnah is more skilled than the ancient Elsecallers average?

1 hour ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Shallan is better at illusions. Vathah is better at illusions. Literally every Lightweaver we've seen is better at illusions. Do you have a source that says they're not?

Shallan intentionally repressed her abilities so she clearly does not count. Vathah developed a new soulcasting technique, so he clearly has some skill with it. And we haven't seen any of the others who have all had less than a year to train, with no teachers, for a power Brandon is deliberately keeping until the back five. That does not work as a suitable sample size.

1 hour ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Source for electrum burning so quickly? Even if it does, the amount of Stormlight required to pull off the stone trick is much too high to be spammed, and if Mistborn can have enough Atium for an extended fight, they can easily have more than enough electrum.

Source:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does.

In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast.

And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.)

TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)

As the only difference in work between atium and electrum is the mental benefits electrum should burn only slightly slower.

The Lightweaver doesn't need to spam the ability, just the threat of them being able to do it is enough to force the Mistborn to use electrum, and given that Lightweavers can tell if someone is high on firemoss by looking at their soul they might be able to tell if the Mistborn is using electrum.

1 hour ago, Primeival Chaos said:

This is still assuming that the Lightweaver is able to soulcast large areas without touching. It is technically possible, but it's like saying that the Mistborn is a savant with every metal and knows each one interacts, including time bubbles. It can happen, but only with lots of practice and dedication that I'm assuming doesn't happen with the average Mistborn/Lightweaver

Not really. It would be closer to Kelsier's trick of spinning metal rods at most.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

She was able to shove a man, and turn not only him but the people he touched into crystal, and that was before Dalinar opened a perpendicularity. She didn't stop and concentrate she simply shoved him.

That was after the perpendicularity. Dalinar opened it in an earlier scene, and Renarin was shocked that Jasnah was able to do that until he noticed the perpendicularity himself.

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Perception, most people will assume it took more effort to move a larger object regardless of their densities.

Perception doesn't work that way. Just as pushing something with more mass requires more energy regardless of volume, so too would Soulcasting something with more mass. It doesn't matter how hard you think it is.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And how do you know Jasnah is more skilled than the ancient Elsecallers average?

How do you know that she isn't?

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Shallan intentionally repressed her abilities so she clearly does not count. Vathah developed a new soulcasting technique, so he clearly has some skill with it. And we haven't seen any of the others who have all had less than a year to train, with no teachers, for a power Brandon is deliberately keeping until the back five. That does not work as a suitable sample size.

Developing bad habits doesn't take skill, and this is all the sample size we have. Do you have any evidence that the Lightweaver's average will be dramatically higher than what they are right now?

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Source:

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does.

In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast.

And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.)

TWG Posts (July 31, 2006)

As the only difference in work between atium and electrum is the mental benefits electrum should burn only slightly slower.

The Lightweaver doesn't need to spam the ability, just the threat of them being able to do it is enough to force the Mistborn to use electrum, and given that Lightweavers can tell if someone is high on firemoss by looking at their soul they might be able to tell if the Mistborn is using electrum.

That's still just speculation, but it doesn't matter because a Mistborn will have plenty of electrum on them either way. And with soulcasting off the table, the Lightweaver only really has Stormlight and a Shardblade, and their order doesn't focus on combat. Between pewter, steel/iron, brass/zinc, nicrosil, and a Mistborn's heightened focus towards combat, they won't last long.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

That was after the perpendicularity. Dalinar opened it in an earlier scene, and Renarin was shocked that Jasnah was able to do that until he noticed the perpendicularity himself.

Okay yeah that's right.

5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Perception doesn't work that way. Just as pushing something with more mass requires more energy regardless of volume, so too would Soulcasting something with more mass. It doesn't matter how hard you think it is.

The Physical realm isn't bound that way but the Spiritual and Cognitive realms are. And while yes more mass would have an effect, I doubt it would be proportional.

7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

How do you know that she isn't?

Burden of proof is on you, you can't ask me to prove a negative.

8 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Developing bad habits doesn't take skill, and this is all the sample size we have. Do you have any evidence that the Lightweaver's average will be dramatically higher than what they are right now?

Sample size we have or not it still isn't large enough to make any kind of conclusion.

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

That's still just speculation, but it doesn't matter because a Mistborn will have plenty of electrum on them either way.

They might have a few minutes worth at most

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

And with soulcasting off the table,

It isn't

10 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Lightweaver only really has Stormlight and a Shardblade, and their order doesn't focus on combat.

Mistborn are from a general population, in a society that doesn't focus on combat.

10 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Between pewter, steel/iron, brass/zinc, nicrosil, and a Mistborn's heightened focus towards combat, they won't last long.

Mistborn are less combat focused then Lightweavers are.