Quick Fix 64: Spies in Starsight

[Kasimir he/him]

For me, ignoring posts, vote analysis:

Two main sets IMO.

1. <Me, Aman, Stick, Hael>

2. <TUN, Bookwyrm, Insanity, Almond>

Divisions made more by thread profile than anything.

IDRGAF about whether they're divided across the sets or not - I'm committed to the claim there is at least one Elim in either set. (No drek Kas...) The point is therefore first to identify the correct set.

• On a meta level, apart from Fifth, we've functionally been shooting into #2 repeatedly. I can see a case for doubling down, or a case for switching.
• Kill pattern seems to suggest #1.
• Raw, unrevised reads from last cycle push me to #2.
• The fundamental reason I am not willing to let go of E!Almond worlds is that I could see us being badly thrown by the fact we don't know how Almond would kill (I sort of feel this applies to Insanity as well to a lesser degree but don't feel as strongly about it because of LG91.)
• In general, I think it is possible to badly misprofile how a player in #2 would kill, with Almond being the most ??? corner of it because we know nothing. With TUN, he has a known kill profile so it'd be more of how much E!TUN feels like screwing with us.
• I think it is also possible to misclear a player in #1 - but this would come down to misreading or misinterpreting a post/vote as being Village when there were really extenuating circumstances. In other words, it's a function of whether you think the mistake is located in kill analysis, or in a clear/V!read that came too swiftly.

@The Bookwyrm - Question for you. You keep on emphasising how much you want to follow experienced players. And yet the one notable occasion on which you disagreed with them was on Xino. Why? What determines when you follow and when you don't?

@ExoticAlmond - Asked before, still asking. Have you played these types of games before, IRL or online?

Can we get everyone to just, IDC, list your current Elim team you are considering. IDGAF if you wanna change your mind later, just right now.

I'm currently on Silver/Hael/TUN, possibly with a side of Bookwyrm.

[Amanuensis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I'm currently on Silver/Hael/TUN, possibly with a side of Bookwyrm.

I'm at Silver/TUN/Stick myself but not 100% locked in there

What's your thoughts on Hael before Stick?

[Stick. she/her]

<Silver, Hael, Bookwyrm> with an optional TUN

Edit:

If I were elim, TBH you guys would know (or heavily suspect it) by now  

Edit2:

Thinking a bit more on it, I can bee why e!TUN might not necessarily mean Kas dies because Hael would obviously advise against it.

Edited December 23, 2022 by _Stick_

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

I'm at Silver/TUN/Stick myself but not 100% locked in there

What's your thoughts on Hael before Stick?

Not 100% locked there either on mine:

With Hael, just a few points:

• I feel he sort of slipped into the background on later cycles. Occasional good points, but if you're recobbling vote analysis with no real conclusions and you're doing it from scratch, and that's your main thing these last few cycles, I sort of wonder if you are making a last minute effort there since it coincides with the heat on him. The counterpoint is I know Hael has engagement issues some games and needs to be drawn out - I think that happened in AG7 and AG8 where V!me had to nag him. The other counterpoint is he probably should've had them already in his doc - he was doing detailed tracking during MR61 to ID the Jedi, including postcounts and so on.
   
• My main reason for V!reading him is still the vote, and I suppose the tone of his C5 posts. But I will note I don't explicitly E!read most of his posts, either. I suppose the way I'd put it is this: in a three or four player Elim team world, I find it hard to believe Silver dies. Add to the fact the main vote shifts came from you, Fifth, and Mat, two of whom have flipped Village, and the final post tap came from me, and I know I'm Village - then what? If I theorise an active bus, I have to look between <Stick, Hael>, and a bus makes a bit less sense for me from Stick's perspective. It's the distancing point: why case Silver and then refuse to vote? It's so early in the cycle that E!Stick should just do it - virtually guaranteed he won't be an end train. If you wanted weaker distancing, literally not casing him would've worked since the only reason I voted Silver was I agreed enough with Stick's case to feel it was worth exerting a bit more pressure there.
   
• FWIW the above is the long way of me saying I am only trying to work out if Silver was actively bussed/sacrificed or opportunistically so.
   
• I note that in MR61, Hael wanted to do maybe a few cycles of quiet/lower activity player kills before swapping to higher activity players. JNV would have fit that profile, with two votes. The Winzik suspicion could've been an additional bonus. I don't think Wiz was especially loud, either, and then we have Devo, who is still middling profile this game - FWIW Devo is one player where I wonder if that's a Hael target. In MR61, he expressed a preference to not go for Devo early.
   
• I tend to associate trickier strategies (rather than gambits per se) with Hael, and am wondering if that is what is throwing me off here.
   
• Ignoring a IKYK, a Mat kill makes more sense for Hael than it does for Stick.

This does require me to ignore my persistent sense that something is very wrong with this team, FWIW.

[Stick. she/her]

Reasons why I am village  :

1. I would have properly bussed Silver instead halfashing it
2. I would have (consensually) bussed my second teammate as well or would've had them bus me
3. I did not pick up on JNV's IC tell
4. I would not have switched to Fifth
5. I would not have killed xino (whatever the case, killing a non-xino villager would've given me greater exe control cuz villager numbers decrease)
6. I would not have killed Mat, he backed off my case and was more willing to go Hael I think

Edited December 23, 2022 by _Stick_
typo (changed by to my)

[Amanuensis he/him]

25 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

<Silver, Hael, Bookwyrm> with an optional TUN

Edit:

If I were elim, TBH you guys would know (or heavily suspect it) by now  

My thing is, we now know for certain that C2 EoD was E/V/V...

This was right before Fifth switched to me:

Quote

(4) Silver: Kas, Wizard, Aman, Devo, 
(3) Nerdy: Xino, Mat, Bookwyrm, 
(3) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, Fifth. 
(1) Aman: Insanity, 
(1) TUN: Stick,

Quote

 

Quote

(4) Silver: Kas, Wizard, Aman, Devo, 
(3) Nerdy: Xino, Mat, Bookwyrm, 
(2) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, 
(2) Aman: Insanity, Fifth, 
(1) TUN: Stick,

Then I switch to Nerdy thinking Fifth/Nerdy:

Quote

(4) Nerdy: Xino, Mat, Bookwyrm, Aman, 
(3) Silver: Kas, Wizard, Devo, 
(2) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, 
(2) Aman: Insanity, Fifth, 
(1) TUN: Stick,

TUN joke votes GM

Followed by Fifth briefly voting Hael and stick briefly voting Fifth...

Quote

(4) Nerdy: Xino, Mat, Bookwyrm, Aman, 
(3) Silver: Kas, Wizard, Devo, 
(2) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, 
(1) Aman: Insanity, 
(1) Hael: Fifth, 
(1) Fifth: Stick,

Fifth returns to me and Hael votes Silver, putting Silver back in a tie:

Quote

(4) Nerdy: Xino, Mat, Bookwyrm, Aman, 
(4) Silver: Kas, Wizard, Devo, Hael, 
(2) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, 
(2) Aman: Insanity, Fifth, 
(1) Fifth: Stick,

Kas immediately unties Silver for Nerdy

Quote

(5) Nerdy: Xino, Mat, Bookwyrm, Aman, Kas, 
(3) Silver: Wizard, Devo, Hael, 
(2) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, 
(2) Aman: Insanity, Fifth, 
(1) Fifth: Stick,

Matt moves off Nerdy onto me

Quote

(4) Nerdy: Xino,  Bookwyrm, Aman, Kas, 
(3) Silver: Wizard, Devo, Hael, 
(3) Aman: Insanity, Fifth, Mat,
(2) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, 
(1) Fifth: Stick,

At 1min to go, Stick goes onto Silver

Quote

(4) Nerdy: Xino,  Bookwyrm, Aman, Kas, 
(4) Silver: Wizard, Devo, Hael, Stick,
(3) Aman: Insanity, Fifth, Mat,
(2) Xino: Nerdy, Almond, 

((Btw this is when I was about to switch to Silver from Nerdy, putting it back up to 5-3))

And then Kas last-second hammers Silver (literally beat me to the punch :P)

So either e!Hael decided to push Silver back into contention with 4 minutes left in the turn

Or e!Stick put Silver into a tie with 1 minute left in the turn

or e!Kas guaranteed Silver's death with 1 second left in the turn

 

My instincts say Stick every time =\

(Technically, my insticts say Aman every time, but my GM PM says otherwise :P)

Edited December 23, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

20 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

It's the distancing point: why case Silver and then refuse to vote? It's so early in the cycle that E!Stick should just do it - virtually guaranteed he won't be an end train. If you wanted weaker distancing, literally not casing him would've worked since the only reason I voted Silver was I agreed enough with Stick's case to feel it was worth exerting a bit more pressure there.

I guess the main objection here is: if players did this, then we wouldn't really be seeing games in which we IDed Elims by noticing that players named them as a sus but refused to vote on them.

This is true, but I can't shake the sense that the way Stick did it is overly elaborate, to the point I'd almost expect a conscious decision to distance to be involved there, and then why not just do it? I recall Silver seeing the thread when he only had two votes on him, at least twice. There was a clear point at which he could have self-presed or replied to Stick and Stick could have retracted.

But he didn't say anything. Was a bus decision made as early as that?

If so, doesn't Stick's behaviour just not really seem consistent with that? That's what stops me, mostly. So I guess you could say it's partly a bus PoE problem. I'm not as fond of the explanation that the team is entirely from Set #2 and that's why they couldn't -

Huh. Let's try this.

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Nerdy (3): Xino, Bookwyrm, Aman
Silver (5): Wizard, Devo, Hael, Stick, Kasimir
Aman (3): Insanity, Fifth, Matrim
Xino (2): Nerdy, Almond
No Vote (2): TUN, Silver

We know there were several late voteshifts:

(1) Aman - I'm reading him solidly Village. Not up for negotiation this game.

(2) Hael

(3) Fifth - flipped Village.

(4) Mat - flipped Village.

(5) Stick

(6) Me

Village-majority shifts. Silver didn't vote. Bookwyrm stayed put. I am willing to consider one of <Insanity, Almond> but they still need a teammate. I know Aman isn't, but at this point I'm going semi-max revision. (Max revision is where I unlock Aman's slot for revision as well.)

The theory in this world if not bussed is that the team already was in a position where they were on CWs, so couldn't move. But it's hard to get a coherent team in this world without Bookwyrm IMO.

Edited to add:

9 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

My instincts say Stick every time =\

I assume this is because putting Silver back in contention with four minutes left is riskier with high volatility and Fifth jumping between trains like Yoda brawling Dooku?

Edited December 23, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

2 elim world? Silver/Stick? How does this affect Stick's play?

I guess same question for Silver/Hael.

ED1T:

4 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I assume this is because putting Silver back in contention with four minutes left is riskier with high volatility and Fifth jumping between trains like Yoda brawling Dooku?

That and idk how quickly Hael would contemplate bussing

Edited December 23, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Amanuensis said:

2 elim world? Silver/Stick? How does this affect Stick's play?

I guess same question for Silver/Hael.

I feel like if Silver consents to the bussing, it'd be worth it almost? Then just snipemax and play hardcore Village. But there should still be flashes of TMI in their posts in such a world, no? That would be the giveaway instead.

[Stick. she/her]

Silver ideally should have sussed me a little bit at the least 

edit:

Where I’m going with this is: it was not a preplanned bus, if it was a bus

Edited December 23, 2022 by _Stick_

[Amanuensis he/him]

13 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I feel like if Silver consents to the bussing, it'd be worth it almost? Then just snipemax and play hardcore Village. But there should still be flashes of TMI in their posts in such a world, no? That would be the giveaway instead.

Would there be TMI tho? In a solo elim world post Silver's death, literally everyone is a target. All they need to do is keep suspicion off themselves (such as by bussing) and follow the villages leads

Both Stick and Hael played more at a distance imo, which is kinda the problem. Less them driving specific votes and more having discussions w/ us or presenting data and going along w/ thread consensus.

I'm not wholly sold on a 2-elim world but I do think it could explain some of the craziness.

ED1T:

@_Stick_

Tbh what I think would be most useful to help me trust you is to build a case not in your defense, but in offense of another. I have wanted to village read you since D1 and that hasn't really changed, but I also respect your e!game too much to believe you when you give reasons for why you're village

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Stick. she/her]

I would like to think I have gone against thread consensus a lot if not most of the time 

Edit:

14 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Tbh what I think would be most useful to help me trust you is to build a case not in your defense, but in offense of another. I have wanted to village read you since D1 and that hasn't really changed, but I also respect your e!game too much to believe you when you give reasons for why you're village 

 

But I think Hael’s village…His posts seem very village and his Silver vote as well. Lmao. I literally do not want to vote him but I’m out of options 

Edit:

I think what this means is that I’m being forced to accept that my Hael read is just wrong. He is elim, unless you are elim. i.e. he is elim. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by _Stick_

[Amanuensis he/him]

3 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

But I think Hael’s village…His posts seem very village and his Silver vote as well. Lmao. I literally do not want to vote him but I’m out of options 

I could believe in a TUN/Book team, assuming luck factored into their kills and TUN is toying with his kill meta intentionally / going after IC suspects. If you're really village and think Hael is village too, I'd look there.

Else y'all need to reevaluate Aman and I need to reevaluate Kas and idw

[The Bookwyrm he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

And yet the one notable occasion on which you disagreed with them was on Xino. Why? What determines when you follow and when you don't?

In regards to Xino and Nerdy:

It was a gut feeling. Yes, I know that's unsatisfying and seems suspicious, but it's the truth. Even with Xino's past behavior pointing to the fact that he should be Elim, I wanted a little bit more evidence before I went for him. I was willing to vote him, but Nerdy seemed so much more suspicious to me in the fact that they, at least for a few cycles, pushed really hard for a Xino vote without any evidence except his past behavior. Sometimes not even that. I wanted more evidence before I went for Xino, though everyone else seemed okay with it, because he was exed, and flipped Village.

At that point I was sure Nerdy was Elim. But they weren't. So now I'm quite literally back to square one. I don't know who to suspect.

I think Hael and TUN are worth a look. In the case that they come up clean, I'd also be willing to look at Kas and Aman, but I'm pretty sure Hael and TUN  are the most suspicious.

And it's also possible that one between Insanity and Almond is Elim, but pretty unlikely that it's both of them.

I need to go re-read the last few cycles.

EDIT: Is it a possibility that Insanity and Almond are both Elim?

Edited December 23, 2022 by The Bookwyrm

[Stick. she/her]

23 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I could believe in a TUN/Book team, assuming luck factored into their kills and TUN is toying with his kill meta intentionally / going after IC suspects. If you're really village and think Hael is village too, I'd look there.

Else y'all need to reevaluate Aman and I need to reevaluate Kas and idw

Mat said this yesterday:

Quote

e!TUN in an e/e exe world I don't think abstains from voting. It's my point from earlier-- if the D2 trains were e/e, there's no point in not bussing. Bussing is actually straight-up beneficial.

I guess, I know e!Stick/Kas/Hael wouldn't abstain there. TUN just abstains regularly anyway so idk if that would weigh out over the gain from bussing for him.

I’m just having a hard time convincing myself TUN would commit so hard to going against his kill meta, it’s a rather big risk, keeping people who suspect you alive and killing those that don’t 

2 minutes ago, The Bookwyrm said:

In regards to Xino and Nerdy:

It was a gut feeling. Yes, I know that's unsatisfying and seems suspicious, but it's the truth. Even with Xino's past behavior pointing to the fact that he should be Elim, I wanted a little bit more evidence before I went for him. I was willing to vote him, but Nerdy seemed so much more suspicious to me in the fact that they, at least for a few cycles, pushed really hard for a Xino vote without any evidence except his past behavior. Sometimes not even that. I wanted more evidence before I went for Xino, though everyone else seemed okay with it, because he was exed, and flipped Village.

At that point I was sure Nerdy was Elim. But they weren't. So now I'm quite literally back to square one. I don't know who to suspect.

I think Hael and TUN are worth a look. In the case that they come up clean, I'd also be willing to look at Kas and Aman, but I'm pretty sure Hael and TUN  are the most suspicious.

And it's also possible that one between Insanity and Almond is Elim, but pretty unlikely that it's both of them.

I need to go re-read the last few cycles.

EDIT: Is it a possibility that Insanity and Almond are both Elim?

I am not in this picture and I don’t know what to make of that  

I don’t think Insanity and Almond make a reasonable pair bc that’s pitting all new/almost-new players against the village. 

[Haelbarde he/him]

I got distracted with video games, so only just getting to bed now, but alarm is set for 6 hours, so I'll finish my review then, but for the moment I'm in the same spot as Stick. For my gut puts her strong village, and I think her back that up, I struggle to see who else, without a thorough look at Book and TUN. The offline when the Xino wagon happens continues to niggle, but I think Aman's point was good.

@Szeth_Pancakes with the elim kill, if two players submit a kill which happens? Earliest valid order, or latest? I've seen both happen in different games, and the answer could have a bearing on the Xino kill.

[Kasimir he/him]

Seriously - @Amanuensis as you play offsite a touch more than I do, but interested in inputs from everyone on this:

We shouldn't be feeling this lost on C6. This is indicative of some error in approach/thinking. Do we have an idea what?

47 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Would there be TMI tho? In a solo elim world post Silver's death, literally everyone is a target. All they need to do is keep suspicion off themselves (such as by bussing) and follow the villages leads

In terms of the way they frame their cases, I was thinking, or who they defend. The knowledge that those players are all Villagers should still be there. And being too passive and following the Village's lead should still be notable, no?

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Seriously - @Amanuensis as you play offsite a touch more than I do, but interested in inputs from everyone on this:

We shouldn't be feeling this lost on C6. This is indicative of some error in approach/thinking. Do we have an idea what?

In terms of the way they frame their cases, I was thinking, or who they defend. The knowledge that those players are all Villagers should still be there. And being too passive and following the Village's lead should still be notable, no?

It's possible we're approaching things wrong, yeah. But with so few players, our PoE more or less ends up the same, no?

I did read a post of yours I missed about Hael just now and I see what you mean. TBH I just remembered the big "gotcha" I saw at the start of the turn, before I went to bed, where I noticed Stick always called Silver Silvereye, even in her first vote for them. I wondered if in a 2-team world, Stick was attempting to prod her new player teammate into activity, later switched off Silver (to TUN, I think?) to "diversify options", then voted Fifth after he began stirring chaos, then finally tied Silver with Nerdy. She might have thought both mine and your votes were stable and hoped either rand would make her look good? If Nerdy went through, Silver lives another day to defend themselves or get flipped, and Stick can look good voting Silver twice in a row.

She did also sleep over her alarm, so if she did submit a Xino safety kill for whatever reason, she wouldn't have been able to change the order.

The alternative, realistically, is Hael deliberately messing with us.

ED1T:

Or TUN's got a new troll meta ig

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Stick. she/her]

9 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I did read a post of yours I missed about Hael just now and I see what you mean. TBH I just remembered the big "gotcha" I saw at the start of the turn, before I went to bed, where I noticed Stick always called Silver Silvereye, even in her first vote for them

I’ve noticed that I’m doing this, though I do think I called them Silver in our previous games together. What does it mean? It’s an arbitrary decision on my part. Silvereye sounds cooler. 

10 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

She did also sleep over her alarm, so if she did submit a Xino safety kill for whatever reason, she wouldn't have been able to change the order.

The alternative, realistically, is Hael deliberately messing with us.

I did bring up another alternative: e!Hael or e!Whoever was in fact online at EoD and deliberately didn’t change the Xino kill because they thought Xino was the last IC and instead of leaving the exe volatile to Winzik’s vote shenanigans (if they think Xino is the last IC aka Winzik, then he will obviously use the vote to save himself), they decide to ensure xino’s death one way or another. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 minute ago, _Stick_ said:

I’ve noticed that I’m doing this, though I do think I called them Silver in our previous games together. What does it mean? It’s an arbitrary decision on my part. Silvereye sounds cooler. 

I did bring up another alternative: e!Hael or e!Whoever was in fact online at EoD and deliberately didn’t change the Xino kill because they thought Xino was the last IC and instead of leaving the exe volatile to Winzik’s vote shenanigans (if they think Xino is the last IC aka Winzik, then he will obviously use the vote to save himself), they decide to ensure xino’s death one way or another. 

Fair.

I do think it makes sense that Xino was attacked because of doc inactivity.

[Stick. she/her]

And if they really did think Xino could’ve been the last of them, I think we can dismiss a four-player elim team. Because why would Szeth go with 4 elims vs 3 ICs. However it’s possible they didn’t think Xino was the last one, but rather just that he was Winzik. Edit: no, that wouldn’t explain why they couldn’t wait for him to get exe’d next cycle. They had to have been assuming he’s the last, or it was a gambit/mistake.

Edited December 23, 2022 by _Stick_

[Amanuensis he/him]

4 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Bleh.

TUN

I feel like this game can be solved today

3 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

Realistically, we're looking at:

1 of <Stick, Hael>
1 of <TUN, Book>

I'm village reading Insanity and Almond and will not consider them

I'm at the point where I just want to park my vote here tbh. Book looks insanely village to me in comparison to TUN at this point. He's either an elim with Stick or Hael or an elim without Stick or Hael. Can we all agree on that?

ED1T:

The only alternative world I see is maybe:

Stick / Almond?

@Kasimir

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Amanuensis

[Kasimir he/him]

30 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I do think it makes sense that Xino was attacked because of doc inactivity.

Big brain strat there, Winzik :eyes:

46 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

She might have thought both mine and your votes were stable and hoped either rand would make her look good? If Nerdy went through, Silver lives another day to defend themselves or get flipped, and Stick can look good voting Silver twice in a row.

That was my thoughts for an E!Stick world, or trying to make sense of it. It doesn't really feel like a major losing strategy - if Nerdy flips, Silver lives another day but you're also on a CW to a flipped Villager, while attention goes to the last minute Nerdy switch, possibly even the you CW (cf. Hael's theorising.) 

And yeah, aware my vote is in reserve right now. I'm dubious it's actively useful at this point anymore, though the Sacred Coin is telling me to vote Stick between Hael and Stick ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

1 hour ago, The Bookwyrm said:

I think Hael and TUN are worth a look. In the case that they come up clean, I'd also be willing to look at Kas and Aman, but I'm pretty sure Hael and TUN  are the most suspicious.

Ngl Book, I appreciate your optimism but I kinda think if Hael and TUN both come up clean, we'll already have lost. Eight players now: I refuse to believe that with a total of four more deaths (unless Hael and TUN die in the same cycle), we'll still be at this. 

1 hour ago, The Bookwyrm said:

It was a gut feeling. Yes, I know that's unsatisfying and seems suspicious, but it's the truth. Even with Xino's past behavior pointing to the fact that he should be Elim, I wanted a little bit more evidence before I went for him

No, I don't really think that's unsatisfying, what I find confusing is that you felt much more strongly about Xino than the other votes you took part in, that's about it. So much of your comments on your votes has been some variant of "I'm following the crowd, this is what everyone else thinks", such that the fact that you felt that way about Xino and no one else is curious. But the fact that it sticks out doesn't immediately or necessarily make it sus, depending.

2 hours ago, Amanuensis said:

That and idk how quickly Hael would contemplate bussing

It's been long enough I'm not sure of his meta anymore. But I would say he would be a player sharp enough to devise snipemaxxing, and the fact you only need one very trustedf player. Whether or not he goes for it is another story. Not sure whether he finds it attractive. That's the question of bussing, yeah.

I guess one more thought at the back of my head: given general unwillingness to rethink you, theoretically you could've been killed instead of Mat. It's a formality whether they pick you or Mat.

There are two players here I can think of who might, in a choice between you and Mat, make the choice to go for Mat and let you live a while longer. That's me and Hael. I'm not sure about Stick. It would certainly be a choice influenced by history.

But I say all of this and still don't want to fully bring myself to believe in an E!Hael world so I guess I'm almost back to TUN all over again. IDK. I guess that's what the thread is for, to just work it out. So I guess I'd ask: why would you put Stick before Hael?

With Stick, it's the kill choice and the way she even first brought up Silver that's giving me pause, mostly. I do read that as being strikes against E!Stick.

Edited to add:

9 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Stick / Almond?

Distancing?

IDK. I am willing to give some credence to E!Almond, but E!Almond needs a partner due to Stick's observation. And my commitment to E!Almond is really insofar as my thoughts that our inability to concretely ascribe kill patterns satisfactorily to anyone indicates a hybrid element in there that we don't know about, that and PoE.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

I personally can't see at least one elim outside of <TUN, Stick, Hael> rn, and I'm down to give Stick and Hael a chance.

(Watch the team be a Hael and Stick double bus)

[Stick. she/her]

What if we…tied. Let RNG decide? 
 

Edit;

NO BAD IDEA

it might expose winzik

Edited December 23, 2022 by _Stick_