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Predictions about Discord


CognitiveShadow

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Here’s what I think happens:

Sazed morphs from Harmony into Discord. This allows him to be destructive sometimes and preserving other times. He is holding out on this change until he absolutely has to for the upcoming cosmere-wide war. He will then be able to ruin/destroy odium and autonomy’s forces, while preserving the Scadrians. He will be Discord and they will love him for it.

Meanwhile, Kelsier will plan ahead and get hold of a trellium spike to help protect/separate himself from Sazed’s power and influence in the future. After they defeat odium/autonomy, Sazed will continue to be discord and will swing back and forth between destroying and preserving… not the best thing to have outside of a period of war.

Kelsier and friends are going to have to fight against Sazed in order to protect the Scadrial and the cosmere at large. Kelsier will also get some lerasium and gain allomantic abilities. I’d bet money that he eventually gets his hands on a dawnshard and that’s how he ultimately stops Sazed.

Thoughts?

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Shadow said:

Sazed morphs from Harmony into Discord. This allows him to be destructive sometimes and preserving other times. He is holding out on this change until he absolutely has to for the upcoming cosmere-wide war. He will then be able to ruin/destroy odium and autonomy’s forces, while preserving the Scadrians. He will be Discord and they will love him for it.

But wouldn't that mean that his Ruin and Preservation sides are working together in harmony towards the same ultimate goal? I like the idea of fitting the Terris prophecy with the war against Odium and Autonomy.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Shadow said:

Meanwhile, Kelsier will plan ahead and get hold of a trellium spike to help protect/separate himself from Sazed’s power and influence in the future. After they defeat odium/autonomy, Sazed will continue to be discord and will swing back and forth between destroying and preserving… not the best thing to have outside of a period of war.

I don't think one spike wouldn't give Harmony that much influence over Kelsier and getting a trellium spike would probably be even worse, because that would open him up to the influence of Autonomy who is the enemy they are fighting against.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Shadow said:

Kelsier and friends are going to have to fight against Sazed in order to protect the Scadrial and the cosmere at large. Kelsier will also get some lerasium and gain allomantic abilities. I’d bet money that he eventually gets his hands on a dawnshard and that’s how he ultimately stops Sazed.

My theory is that after the war Sazed will pick up either Odium or Autonomy(probably Autonomy, because that would fit better with his intent) and that would balance out Ruin and Preservation solving the problem of Discord.

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4 minutes ago, Ati16 said:

But wouldn't that mean that his Ruin and Preservation sides are working together in harmony towards the same ultimate goal? I like the idea of fitting the Terris prophecy with the war against Odium and Autonomy.

That's true, I guess it would depend on how much Sazed has control over what is preserved and what is ruined. But giving them different goals would make sense... maybe his preservation half is trying to save lives and stop change/conflict, while the ruin side is trying to destroy the whole Cosmere? Sazed could guide the Ruin side towards fighting against the main enemy forces since they are in the way, but then it would be a serious issue after he wins.

7 minutes ago, Ati16 said:

I don't think one spike wouldn't give Harmony that much influence over Kelsier and getting a trellium spike would probably be even worse, because that would open him up to the influence of Autonomy who is the enemy they are fighting against.

Fair, and it wouldn't make sense for him to get more hemelurgic spikes as we learn that hemelurgy has been largely ineffective for Kelsier so far. I guess his only hope is to get a dawnshard haha

8 minutes ago, Ati16 said:

My theory is that after the war Sazed will pick up either Odium or Autonomy(probably Autonomy, because that would fit better with his intent) and that would balance out Ruin and Preservation solving the problem of Discord.

Oooh I like this... I feel like those are mergeable. Does Sazed then slowly but ultimately gain all of the other shards at the end of the Cosmere story line? and become Adonalsium / the true hero of ages??? Or maybe he gives it up to Hoid at the end? I don't know, totally spitballing. Crazy talk.

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My feeling is that the Harmony who meets Kelsier at the end of the book is already Discord at this point. Kelsier mentions the sometimes usual dark shady version of Harmony is not present at this meeting. 

For me, I think I'm most interested in what a shard that is now going by the Intent "Discord" would mean and what they would do. The Intent behind Harmony is theoretically the balancing of Ruin and Preservation's power, which as we know is already in conflict due to the very slight imbalance between the two. Thus far from his inception as Harmony all the way to Era 2, Harmony's actions have been thumbing the scale in the "preserving" direction pretty heavily. He's been foiling nefarious plots and mass devastation for a while now, but using intermediaries (kandra & Wax and Co.) to act as passively as possible about it. I'd imagine a proper representation of Harmony would be even more backseat than he already is, allowing these ruinous events to occur without influence. Things live, things die, all part of the cycle. 

So that brings me to the question of what would Discord actually do? Would his actions be in the direct promotion of Ruin, sort of overcorrecting the swinging of the pendulum in the opposing direction? Or would it be as simple as letting bad things happen, perhaps allowing a war with the Southern Scardrians to happen without influence? Just let humanity eradicate itself as it naturally does. 

At this point, I think I'm leaning toward Discord actually being a net positive for the survival of Scadrial as well as the Ghostbloods (Kelsier) at a cost to the people in-world. It's been stated by Harmony that his ability to influence the Cosmere is minimal at best due to his conflicting nature. I think becoming Discord will accelerate the growth of technology and subsequently that impact will help him extend beyond into the Cosmere. Perhaps Discord can be the Shard, maybe with Honor's and others help, to combat the spread of baddies like Odium and Autonomy?

Just many rambling thoughts I have! haha

Edited by Coriniroc
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I think that the idea that Harmony is balance is an unfounded assumption. Sazed, post-ascension, holds two Shards which are balanced against each other due to their opposed natures-- it's holding Ruin and Preservation at once that forces balance. I don't think that that will change as long as those two Shards are held together without any other. Harmony is Sazed's Intent for those balanced forces: he wants them to to exist in tranquility. So Discord should also be constrained by balance because it has the same components which inherently require it, but the Intent won't be tranquil coexistence.

What I think will be different about Discord is that instead of balance enforced largely by restraint or inaction (even when Sazed wants a specific outcome), the balance will be enforced by more activity which cancels itself out but which also heightens instability. I don't think that Sazed will have quite the same scope to prefer an outcome and position agents to pursue it but will instead maneuver people (who might, in the past, have been agents of Preservation, Ruin, or Harmony) with goals into positions where they will be forced to contend against each other. He'll end up promoting instability for its own sake, and the outcome will be determined by whoever is able to deal with that. Direct action will still be balanced, not by restraint and inaction, but by Preserving some groups and Ruining others so that there is always maximum friction between people and groups of consequence.

I think that we're already seeing a lot of this, and that it's related. Harmony hasn't suddenly become Discord but has been sliding that way for a long time. We've gone from an idyllic people too content to progress (the Elendel Basin) to multiple political groups constantly at each others' throats and essentially refusing to work together (Elendel vs. the Roughs, all vs. Southern Scadrial), for example. I think we'll also see changes from certain "sides" getting help (Harmony sends Wax to save everyone, and sends nothing to the Set) to sending help to all sides (Wax is dispatched for side A and not-Wax is deployed for side B, both sent by Discord).

The defining characteristic won't be capability, as Autonomy favors, or arbitrary conflict, as Odium favors, but will instead be fractiousness and disinterest (or inability) in working with others. Under Discord we'll see more factions bitterly opposed to other factions, more coups, more defectors and double-agents, and more of anything that opposes stability, cooperation, or peace.

Edited by Returned
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I wonder if Ja will come back into play. Although, what Ja did sounds a lot like Kelsier. 

 

Quote

Founding and Growth

Jaism was founded by a single man whose name was lost to history. His followers called him "The Ja". The Ja was skilled at preaching discord, and for that he was murdered by a local king. However, this only served to increase his following, and his believers became particularly zealous.[1]

Jaists believed "that they earned happiness proportional to their overt devotion, and they were known for frequent and fervent professions of faith". People outside the faith became frustrated even speaking to Jaists, since they added the phrase "Praise the Ja" to the end of nearly every sentence.[1] Jaism's overall popularity is not known, nor whether it was limited to certain regions of Scadrial.



https://coppermind.net/wiki/Jaism

Edited by teknopathetic
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It's worth noting that either now or in the near future, Harmony CAN'T be balanced (unless he destroys humanity)

 

He's due to regain some Investiture from Ruin any moment, and once that happens then he will be more Ruin than Preservation and the Shards cannot be balanced.

 

I'm personally sure that this subtle inclination towards Ruin is what denotes the change from Harmony to Discord and therefore the differences between them.

 

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1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder if Ja will come back into play. Although, what Ja did sounds a lot like Kelsier. 

 



https://coppermind.net/wiki/Jaism

This is very interesting! Whether it becomes a factor or not in the future, it could have been a pretty solid Easter egg / foreshadowing for us to reference

2 hours ago, Returned said:

What I think will be different about Discord is that instead of balance enforced largely by restraint or inaction (even when Sazed wants a specific outcome), the balance will be enforced by more activity which cancels itself out but which also heightens instability. 

I tend to agree with this. Instead of holding back with inaction, it will be a release and letting the shards act. Still balanced but not working towards the same goal

1 hour ago, IndigoAjah said:

It's worth noting that either now or in the near future, Harmony CAN'T be balanced (unless he destroys humanity)

He's due to regain some Investiture from Ruin any moment, and once that happens then he will be more Ruin than Preservation and the Shards cannot be balanced.

I'm personally sure that this subtle inclination towards Ruin is what denotes the change from Harmony to Discord and therefore the differences between them.

Isn’t Harmony already unbalanced and leaning towards ruin? I thought that was always the case since a chunk of preservation goes towards making the people of Scadrial sapient.

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2 hours ago, Ookla the Shadow said:

This is very interesting! Whether it becomes a factor or not in the future, it could have been a pretty solid Easter egg / foreshadowing for us to reference

I tend to agree with this. Instead of holding back with inaction, it will be a release and letting the shards act. Still balanced but not working towards the same goal

Isn’t Harmony already unbalanced and leaning towards ruin? I thought that was always the case since a chunk of preservation goes towards making the people of Scadrial sapient.

Yes but we see them perfectly equal through HoA because so much of Ruin is trapped in Atium, hence why he was trying to find the Atium. However when El burned it all, Ruin and Preservation were still equal: he prevented Ruin from achieving his goal and Vin could destroy herself and Ati by forcing the two equal but opposite forces together. 

 

The entire premise of that book doesn't work unless Ruin and Preservation start the book equal and end it equal and the Atium is the difference. Ati is explicit about it.

 

Why this is the case is unclear but Harmony started off with a truly balanced Shard. Overtime that Atium would regrow, in theory, but the Pits were destroyed and Kel told us (whether informed or not) that it would take 300 years for new Atium to form. So where that Investiture is for 300 years is a mystery. Nonetheless, 300 years has passed now, and Atium doesn't spontaneously regrow anymore as it doesn't exist outside of Harmonium. But it seems likely that this Ruin Investiture is back in the world, and possibly back in Saze, unbalancing him 

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24 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Yes but we see them perfectly equal through HoA because so much of Ruin is trapped in Atium, hence why he was trying to find the Atium. However when El burned it all, Ruin and Preservation were still equal: he prevented Ruin from achieving his goal and Vin could destroy herself and Ati by forcing the two equal but opposite forces together. 

 

The entire premise of that book doesn't work unless Ruin and Preservation start the book equal and end it equal and the Atium is the difference. Ati is explicit about it.

 

Why this is the case is unclear but Harmony started off with a truly balanced Shard. Overtime that Atium would regrow, in theory, but the Pits were destroyed and Kel told us (whether informed or not) that it would take 300 years for new Atium to form. So where that Investiture is for 300 years is a mystery. Nonetheless, 300 years has passed now, and Atium doesn't spontaneously regrow anymore as it doesn't exist outside of Harmonium. But it seems likely that this Ruin Investiture is back in the world, and possibly back in Saze, unbalancing him 

This is very clear and a great summary! Thanks! Definitely brings a lot of interesting thoughts, very curious to see what happens with this. Makes so much more sense about why Discord is coming and why it was a foreseeable thing.

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  • 3 weeks later...

In TLM when it shows the map of the southern continent, you can see that Hathsin is far outside the Basin and the Roughs, to the north. I think that the Atium is back, but no one has found it yet. Also, a definition of discord is "a lack of harmony", or "disagreement between people (or in this case, shards)". I think that Discord's intent will be to Preserve and Ruin equally, but he will do it randomly to create chaos. I think he will be shifted towards his Ruin side.

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7 minutes ago, SPECTRE120 said:

In TLM when it shows the map of the southern continent, you can see that Hathsin is far outside the Basin and the Roughs, to the north. I think that the Atium is back, but no one has found it yet. Also, a definition of discord is "a lack of harmony", or "disagreement between people (or in this case, shards)". I think that Discord's intent will be to Preserve and Ruin equally, but he will do it randomly to create chaos. I think he will be shifted towards his Ruin side.

We saw the pits in SoS, and they weren't generating Atium.

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I think he means that the pits are no longer the location of the atium formations, rather the area known as hathsin (likely named after the pits) to the north of the basin is where the atium would grow. However, the Atium grew because of geological interference with the perpendicularity, and we know there is only 1 perpendicularity on Scadrial. My guess is that the investiture is being trickled down to perpendicularity, and when it joins it starts to “corrupt” Sazed.

Of course, this doesn’t answer the question of why he doesn’t just invest using only ruin a little, probably to make atium for marsh, possibly atium-electrum already completely full. Not only would this prevent discord, but if he unbalanced it towards preservation, he could twist the intent to preserve the current power balance, and allow himself to preserve by ruining, more actively helping in the plots.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/27/2022 at 8:38 PM, Frustration said:

We saw the pits in SoS, and they weren't generating Atium.

Did we see the actual pits though? Because SPECTRE120 is right. Looking at the maps of both The Final Empire and the map from The Lost Metal, Elendel City is located near what used to be the Doriel ashmount on the coast of the Southern Sea (now the Sea of Yomend). The Pits were north of Lake Tyrian which still exists as the Tyrian Sea further north than even the Northern Roughs. So did Harmony just move the Pits south (or the bodies of water north)? Or did he leave them where they were and created a decoy Pits in Elendel City?

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5 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Did we see the actual pits though? Because SPECTRE120 is right. Looking at the maps of both The Final Empire and the map from The Lost Metal, Elendel City is located near what used to be the Doriel ashmount on the coast of the Southern Sea (now the Sea of Yomend). The Pits were north of Lake Tyrian which still exists as the Tyrian Sea further north than even the Northern Roughs. So did Harmony just move the Pits south (or the bodies of water north)? Or did he leave them where they were and created a decoy Pits in Elendel City?

Yes, Pits were moved. During WoA Terris settle in Pits, and right next to them was Kandra Homeland. In HoA most people in Luthadel moved to Pits and most likely many hide in them from heat of the sun and Koloss. Kredik Shaw was also moved to Elendel because some people were hidden in there. Most people doesn't know that Pits are now in Elendel as it's still Kandra sacred land, hidden from humanity. 

If Pits were still working, or Atium was being made, Marsh would collect it. He needs Atium to live. 

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