Kandra World Hopping Inconsistency

[StormingTexan he/him]

 

This was brought up in the chapter 10/11 Preview reactions but thought it would be good to start a separate thread since it contains Cosmere spoilers. 

In the preview chapters MeLaan says this:

Quote

 

“Well, maybe between planets?” MeLaan said. “I’m not entirely sure. Harmony wants some of us to strike out, begin exploring, learning about the cosmere. It’s become evident that the cosmere knows about us.” She nodded toward the spike pinched between Wax’s fingers.

 

Way back in 2014 we have the WoB indicating there are Kandra on other planets besides Scadrial. 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Are there kandra hiding in any of your books, besides the Mistborn ones?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes there are! Yes there are.

JordanCon 2014 (April 11, 2014)

 

 

A few moths later a follow up WoB. Note he says an agent of Sazed/Harmony so what we have "seen before" is Kandra  post Catacendre. At the time of this WoB the non-MB books that had been published were Elantris, Warbreaker, tWoK, tES, SfSitFoH, WoR, and SotD (Sixth had only been out for a few months). All of these books besides SotD take place before MBE2 according to the unofficial Cosmere timeline. So my first thought was the book he was referring to was SotD. 

 

Quote

 

Newan (paraphrased)

I asked what planet we have seen the kandra worldhopper on.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said "You have seen her before".

Newan (paraphrased)

I asked if she was an agent of Sazed

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said yes.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

 

Then we get this WoB that specifically says there is a Kandra on Roshar

 

 

Quote

 

Skaiiwalker (paraphrased)

Are there any kandra on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Skaiiwalker (paraphrased)

Is Axies one of them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, but good guess. The Aimians are a different race.

Teen Author Boot Camp (April 11, 2015)

 

Then he says we saw one on-screen in Oathbringer 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Have we seen the worldhopping kandra on-screen in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I believe you have. Ahhhh, yes, she gets around. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

So something is not adding up since MBE2 is supposed to be after SA 5 and MeLaan is saying Harmony wants them to begin exploring. I know there has been a lot of speculation on who the Kandra on Roshar is and not really the point but I am curious about the discrepancy in timeline/continuity.

 

A few possibilities

1) Brandon will retcon the previous WoB(s)

2) The Cosmere Timeline is incorrect as we understand it (it is unofficial afterall)

3) MeLaan and/or Harmony is purposely keeping past world hopping from Wax and crew

What do you guys think? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Probably just Sazed trying to ease people into it by secretly sending an experienced Kandra scout first, knowing where is or isn't safe then sending out less experienced people to go explore and gain experience, maybe.

This late in the game I don't think Brandon would make that kind of mistake. Unless he has in which case it'd be easy to retcon.

[drunkenbotanist]

It also could be MeLaan just kind of understating the degree of previous exploration, the way she seems to be understating the task she's about to start, presumably because she's more focused on Wayne right now?

 

"oh worldhopping? Yeah I know nothing about it. Between planets or something anyways"

[Requiem17 she/her]

Quote

“It’s difficult,” she said. “Both to get to the other side—which is an inversion of the real world—and to travel while there.

Another useful quote. MeLaan does appear to know someone with personal experience if she hasn't gone herself.

The someone could be Sazed lore-dumping, but I feel it's more likely another kandra. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 hours ago, Requiem17 said:

Another useful quote. MeLaan does appear to know someone with personal experience if she hasn't gone herself.

The someone could be Sazed lore-dumping, but I feel it's more likely another kandra. 

Which would mean that a Kandra has Worldhopped before and that explorations have been done before, and that Melaan is just an unreliable narrator.

[StormingTexan he/him]

10 hours ago, Requiem17 said:

Another useful quote. MeLaan does appear to know someone with personal experience if she hasn't gone herself.

The someone could be Sazed lore-dumping, but I feel it's more likely another kandra. 

Yes I thought about this as well. Hard to say if she knows from someone els's experience or if Sazed just explained the process/environment to her which I think he would regardless if another Kandra has or has not gone. 

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Which would mean that a Kandra has Worldhopped before and that explorations have been done before, and that Melaan is just an unreliable narrator.

Another possibility that MeLaan is just an unreliable narrator. I should have added that to my list as honestly it is probably the most likely answer. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

12 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Another possibility that MeLaan is just an unreliable narrator. I should have added that to my list as honestly it is probably the most likely answer. 

Well yeah, it's been 300 years since Era 1. If Sazed hadn't set up any scouting expeditions before The Lost Metal then Godhood would be wasted on him.

Maybe he sent Paalm out over the centuries and eventually Trell decided to try to turn her against Sazed. It was said that Paalm did a lot of stuff for Harmony over the years.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 20.10.2022 at 10:04 PM, StormingTexan said:

1) Brandon will retcon the previous WoB(s)

2) The Cosmere Timeline is incorrect as we understand it (it is unofficial afterall)

3) MeLaan and/or Harmony is purposely keeping past world hopping from Wax and crew

What do you guys think?

1. That you work for somebody at a remote location does not require that your employer sent you there. For all we know Sazed contacted the Lord Ruler's explorers.
2. That Harmony now sends Kandra, does not mean that he could not have sent somebody else first. Iyatil and the cans of fish in Shadesmar prove that at least southern Scadrians have been worldhopping for generations.
3. That no Ghostblood should be a Pathian or have Pathians among close family is quite unlikely.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

We also know Harmony is trying to build coalition between Shards and is sending letters to them (and to Hoid). As we are aware, he isnt sending them telepathicaly, or throu Spiritual Realm, so someone needet to carry those letters across Cosmere. And who is better as messenger than creature you can always directly take controll over?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 22.10.2022 at 11:24 PM, Bzhydack said:

We also know Harmony is trying to build coalition between Shards and is sending letters to them (and to Hoid). As we are aware, he isnt sending them telepathicaly, or throu Spiritual Realm, so someone needet to carry those letters across Cosmere. And who is better as messenger than creature you can always directly take controll over?

People who do not immediately cause suspicion and are seen as neutrals not spies. There are good reasons to just use the caravans, whom we know to exist. The cans in Oathbringer were not 300 years old.

[Nathrangking he/him]

This particular issue is addressed this week.

Quote

 

“It is an exciting mission,” she said. “I get to cross the misted unknown, the dark vastness that Harmony calls ‘Shadesmar.’ I’ll be the first kandra to go out there long-term, with an official mission."

 

 

[Requiem17 she/her]

Someone is going to have to ask Brandon about the previous WoBs now. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

12 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

Someone is going to have to ask Brandon about the previous WoBs now. 

Well MeLaan pretty much answered the question in the chapters answered today. Not the first just the first to explore "long term". 

[+robardin he/him]

On 10/20/2022 at 4:04 PM, StormingTexan said:

... we get this WoB that specifically says there is a Kandra on Roshar ... 

Then he says we saw one on-screen in Oathbringer.

So something is not adding up since MBE2 is supposed to be after SA 5 and MeLaan is saying Harmony wants them to begin exploring. I know there has been a lot of speculation on who the Kandra on Roshar is and not really the point but I am curious about the discrepancy in timeline/continuity.

A few possibilities

1) Brandon will retcon the previous WoB(s)

2) The Cosmere Timeline is incorrect as we understand it (it is unofficial afterall)

3) MeLaan and/or Harmony is purposely keeping past world hopping from Wax and crew

What do you guys think? 

This was also the first thing I noticed in reading these preview chapters!

While Harmony uses the kandra as "His agents", He also wants them to have free will (even if more "directed" by him than the humans of Scadrial). For example, ReLuur had to "discover" the temple of the Bands of Mourning (and lose a spike in the process to the Set), and VenDell mentions that Harmony has "let slip" about moving pictures in the future while holding back even from the kandra about things they needed to discover on their own (in His view).

And technically, what MeLaan said does not contradict the statement that we've already seen a kandra on Roshar in Oathbringer, SA4, which predates the Wax and Wayne MB Era 2 books that occur between SA5 and SA5: "I’ll be the first kandra to go out there long-term, with an official mission... I get to explore the cosmere, Wayne. I get to go and see everything there is—worlds we can only imagine."

She's actually being sent by Harmony's express command, with a parameterized mission. She may or may not know that there have already been kandra "out there".

The kandra already known to be on Roshar earlier? Well, that could be an "advance scout", as you say. After all, how else would Harmony know where to send her?

Or perhaps a "rogue kandra"? Harmony is capable of taking direct control of them, but that's even more true of the super-spiked Marsh - but as we saw from him giving Spook's notebook on hemalurgy to Marasi at the end of Alloy of Law, the nature of the Shard of Harmony requires that He allow even his agents to view things differently than He himself does. And to act accordingly.

Another possibility is that it's one of "Trell's" Faceless Immortals, i.e., a kandra made with a trellium spike somewhere in the mix. I think that'd be "less satisfying" because I'd rather learn about the possibility or existence of such beings in the Mistborn series first, but then again, technically we would have, as the mention of a kandra on Roshar before that is only a WoB and not published canon.

Finally, as you say, the "Cosmere Timeline" as we know it is not fully canon until published works are published, WoBs notwithstanding, but there have been so many WoBs referring to MB Era 2 as happening between SA5 and SA6 (plus tidbits like that comment about kandra being in other Cosmere works already, specifically on Roshar) that it's hard to see all of that getting retconned all of a sudden. But yeah, it's certainly possible (expect a WoB shortly after the release of TLM owning up to that, if that turns out to be the case).

Edited October 24, 2022 by robardin

[ftl]

The answer that seems consistent with both published books and past WoBs is that the Kandra on Roshar was not there on a "long-term, official mission". Could be a Kandra there on their own accord, or could be a Kandra there for a short-term mission (where, for immortal Kandra, a few decades might count as "short").

I think it's also totally possible that Brandon changed his mind about the Kandra on Roshar. WoBs aren't real canon, the books always take precedence, and Brandon could have decided that it works better for him if the first Kandra on Roshar is sent between books 5 and 6, during MB2, rather than before. Could be good to ask. I wouldn't even call it a retcon since things not in the books should be considered not-yet-canonized.

[HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose?]

hmmm, mayhaps theres an option you haven't considered. Pre catecendre Kandra. 

The kandra, especially those of the first generation, were very cosmere aware. And besides, 

They litterally live under a perpendicularity.

Perhaps when brandon is talking about kandra outside of scadrial, it may be these kandra, whom harmony cannot, or perhaps due to his intent, will not exert influence over.

[handleinthedark]

I wonder if the-with an official mission- is really the line to pay attention to here. It could be, as suggested above, pre-catecendre Kandra but I also wouldn't be surprised if Harmony gave the option for Kandra to leave Scadrial if they wished and some number of them did so without being on a mission but rather to just get away.

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose? said:

hmmm, mayhaps theres an option you haven't considered. Pre catecendre Kandra. 

The kandra, especially those of the first generation, were very cosmere aware. And besides, 

They litterally live under a perpendicularity.

Perhaps when brandon is talking about kandra outside of scadrial, it may be these kandra, whom harmony cannot, or perhaps due to his intent, will not exert influence over.

Yes but this would be contradicted by the fact he says they are "Agents of Sazed". Now that doesn't mean pre-catacendre Kandra had not potentially world hopped but they were not the ones Brandon was referring to us seeing in other books. 

 

1 hour ago, ftl said:

The answer that seems consistent with both published books and past WoBs is that the Kandra on Roshar was not there on a "long-term, official mission". Could be a Kandra there on their own accord, or could be a Kandra there for a short-term mission (where, for immortal Kandra, a few decades might count as "short").

Yep the chapters this week put it to rest and in context of the new information nothing is really contradicted. Ah the trials and tribulations of reading a book two chapters a week 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Yes but this would be contradicted by the fact he says they are "Agents of Sazed". Now that doesn't mean pre-catacendre Kandra had not potentially world hopped but they were not the ones Brandon was referring to us seeing in other books.

Why not? They may have worked for the Lord Ruler and just switched to the new management, so to speak.

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why not? They may have worked for the Lord Ruler and just switched to the new management, so to speak.

Kandra subjected themselves to what they considered slavery, under the terms of Contract, in order to escape the fate of being destroyed or made puppets by human Allomancers.

If they could have just disappeared off-planet and blend in somewhere else, or even find an uninhabited planet or area of a planet to take up residence in, don’t you think they would have done it?

Well, except for the salmon-like need to return to Scadrial once every century to get the spikes from TLR to make the next Generation, I suppose. There was nothing in the First Contract, AFAIK, that linked getting generational spikes to serving mankind as spies for payment in atium.

I guess there’s that part of the First Contract - they were supposed to be of Preservation and to guard the body of Ruin, the great cache of the Trustwarren, with their secrecy and their very lives - hard to do that from a base in Silverlight or Nalthis or something like that, I suppose.

[Friendshipspren he/him]

Rogue kandra who was and still is loyal to tlr or a kandra that escaped tlr 

 

Also what does tES stand for ? 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Friendshipspren

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 25.10.2022 at 2:11 AM, robardin said:

Kandra subjected themselves to what they considered slavery, under the terms of Contract, in order to escape the fate of being destroyed or made puppets by human Allomancers.

If they could have just disappeared off-planet and blend in somewhere else, or even find an uninhabited planet or area of a planet to take up residence in, don’t you think they would have done it?

Some, possibly even a majority would have done so. However, first, those would not be the ones TLR would send, and even if they absconded, why would TLR care? They cannot reproduce and people out there already know that Scadrial exists.

On 25.10.2022 at 2:11 AM, robardin said:

Well, except for the salmon-like need to return to Scadrial once every century to get the spikes from TLR to make the next Generation, I suppose. There was nothing in the First Contract, AFAIK, that linked getting generational spikes to serving mankind as spies for payment in atium.

I guess there’s that part of the First Contract - they were supposed to be of Preservation and to guard the body of Ruin, the great cache of the Trustwarren, with their secrecy and their very lives - hard to do that from a base in Silverlight or Nalthis or something like that, I suppose.

There were reason for a Kandra especially an old Kandra to go off world willingly or even eagerly.

1. Simple adventure
2. No allomancers
3. Beauty. If you remembered classical Scadrial, would you want to live in the world of ash?
4. Loyalty. There were potential threats out there. Scadrial would need the warning, should it come to that.

And there were reasons to be loyal to TLR

1. Fear. You need to make sure he does not change his mind about the worth of the Kandra
2. Loneliness. If you were on a mission alone and wanted to return, you better keep the reports flowing.
3. Loyalty to Scadrial, again, if there is a threat coming you want to warn the home world.
4. Gratitude. Some Kandra did genuinely think of TLR as their father.

[Ashbringer he/him]

6 hours ago, Friendshipspren said:

Also what does tES stand for ? 

The Emperor's Soul, pretty sure.

[Yumiya]

On 10/22/2022 at 5:24 PM, Bzhydack said:

And who is better as messenger than creature you can always directly take controll over?

Do we know how far Harmony can exert control? If cognitive shadows have trouble leaving their shard's area of investiture, how far does the shard's power extend? Seems like Odium and Cultivation cannot really do much outside the Rosharan system. So can Harmony actually control Kandra outside his system? If not, that means Trell is physically in system...

[That1Cellist he/him]

1 hour ago, Yumiya said:

Do we know how far Harmony can exert control? If cognitive shadows have trouble leaving their shard's area of investiture, how far does the shard's power extend? Seems like Odium and Cultivation cannot really do much outside the Rosharan system. So can Harmony actually control Kandra outside his system? If not, that means Trell is physically in system...

I mean, Odium can't do anything because Honor's restrictions. They keep him there.

Cultivation might have to stay in the system to keep those restrictions in place. Also, we don't actually know if Cultivation is working elsewhere in the Cosmere or not.

I would like to remind you that shards cannot move as easily once they have become invested in a planet. However, with some things, such as breaths, it is much easier to move around. Assuming that Trell is Autonomy, it would make sense for Trell's agents to be very mobile, as that would match up with the Intent, I believe.

Anyway, I would assume that Harmony's agents have pretty good mobility, as we know that you can get off the planet while being invested with a metallic art. So, there must be some workaround. Additionally, Harmony is very knowledgeable, and probably knows the extent of his ability reasonably well.

Edited October 26, 2022 by That1Cellist