Who do you think is the most powerful single person in the cosmere?

[stonehand]

For the sake of argument, this is discounting Vessels of Shards. I'm also tempted to exclude Hoid, but I'm interested in hearing your opinions.

I'm also interested in who is the most powerful in different kinds of power, most invested, most politically powerful, most powerful combatant, etc etc.

My first instinct is to say that Dalinar is a strong contender for the title, as I'm increasingly convinced that Bondsmiths are OP by design, especially now that Honor's limitations have been largely removed.

What do you think?

[Trusk'our]

Hmm. An interesting question, and one that I would love to answer  

I also think that Dalinar is a pretty strong contender, due to his Bondsmith abilities, but that is mostly due to the potential of his powers; he doesn't know how to use them very well quite yet. He is also very strong politically, as the king of Urithuru and he has many allies in other kingdoms as well. He is a strategic genius in battle, and an excellent general. He knows how to lead a large group of people effectively as well. He can regenerate physical and spiritual injuries, but still ages in his current state.

Hoid would be another good contender as he has thousands of years of experience and knowledge, access to multiple forms of investiture (i.e. Bio-Chromatic Breaths, Allomancy, Surgebinding, Yolish Lightweaving), and he is nearly unkillable due to his unique powers. He lacks the ability to physically harm most beings however, even in the defense of his own life.

Vasher has hundreds of years experience, is a master Awakener, and has the ability to go back to Nalthis a retrieve tens of thousands of Breaths from the Hallendren God-King if he should so desire. Not to mention the fact that he could also control all of Hallendren should he want as well. He also helped create the Awakened sword Nightblood, and has the knowledge and potential resources that he could likely replicate the process should he have need. He is biologically immortal so long as he has some Investiture to feed on, and he can't be poisoned or suffer from disease, but other than that he could be killed just as easily as any other human (well, humanish). He also doesn't seem to want to have great power, which holds him back.

Kelsier also has hundreds of years experience, is a master Allomancer, and most of Scadrial worships him a deity. He is a Sliver, which provides him with certain unknown benefits, he is a cognitive shadow, which prevents him from aging, and he has found a way to regain a physical body even if killed, not to mention the fact that if he was killed he would be able to persist indefinitely in the cognitive realm unless completely destroyed or until he regains physical form. He is also likely a full Feruchemist as well since he created the Bands of Mourning, and even if he wasn't he likely could create another Unsealed Metalmind that granted those powers. He also has a knowledge of, and willingness to use Hemalurgy. He currently cannot leave Scadrial himself, which is a limitation, but he does have people who travel to other worlds for him to gather information and power. Kelsier craves power and knowledge, pushing to constantly gain more of both, and he is an experienced and charismatic leader.

So, I think that Dalinar has the most potential in his current state than any of the others purely due to his Bondsmithing powers. Vasher has a lot of powerful potential as well, and he could likely access it more quickly and easily than Dalinar, but he doesn't seem to want to. Hoid is already very powerful, and we likely have more to see from him, but he has a limiting factor in that he couldn't defend himself as effectively as other people with a similar amount of Investiture from another powerful being, but he also has the whole immortality thing. But honestly, I think that Kelsier is the most powerful person in the cosmere right now, discounting Shards, as he could muster the nearly the entire might of a planet behind him, he's likely already a full Feruchemist on top of being a Mistborn (compounding, am I right?), and he has Hemalurgy at his disposal, which could be very, very dangerous. And he wants to be powerful and dangerous, and already has had hundreds of years to plan out doing so.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

TLR, of course. He is Fullborn, and never got married.

 

[Quantus]

What do you all think about Frost?  We dont know much at all, but between being one of the oldest beings in the cosmere, and being a "Dragon" in the "Dragonsteel" setting, he's at least a sleeper contender that's worth keeping an eye on.  

 

[+ZincAboutIt]

Going to have to agree on Kelsier being the most powerful. His powerset is already very impressive, but his willingness to use all of it in whatever manner it takes to achieve his goals is really what sells it for me. Not only does he have a lot of power, you can be almost certain that he will use it to its fullest potential - something I can’t really say about the other contenders on the list.

Honorable mention goes to Ishar for me, who has all the wild Bondsmith Herald shenanigans plus he’s absolutely out to lunch mentally and would probably unleash it all on a whim  

Edited May 24, 2022 by ZincAboutIt

[+Invocation]

Does Nightblood count as a person?

[+ZincAboutIt]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Does Nightblood count as a person?

I would technically say no in this case as he needs to be wielded in order to act, right?

[+Invocation]

15 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

I would technically say no in this case as he needs to be wielded in order to act, right?

Alright well then I'm hopping on the Kell train.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Going to have to agree on Kelsier being the most powerful. His powerset is already very impressive, but his willingness to use all of it in whatever manner it takes to achieve his goals is really what sells it for me. Not only does he have a lot of power, you can be almost certain that he will use it to its fullest potential - something I can’t really say about the other contenders on the list.

Honorable mention goes to Ishar for me, who has all the wild Bondsmith Herald shenanigans plus he’s absolutely out to lunch mentally and would probably unleash it all on a whim  

Are we assuming (or has it been confirmed) that he's achieved Fullborn Status?  Even relying on something like the Bands would be a significant tactical reduction over a true Fullborn like The Lord Ruler.  

 

To the OP, if the definition of the most powerful is Wins the Fight, anyone that achieves Fullborn is going to be up there since Speedsters are always OP.  The question becomes what are the absolute limits of Speed, but WOB sets a lower limit than what we saw the Bands provide so we cant be sure.  Best challenge is a Soulcaster with the element of Surprise.  

If the question is who has the most versatility in lasting Power, a Bondsmith or elder Irian/Elantrian is pretty high up there, and unlike a full-born they can do Permanent effects and a lot more than personal Augmentation.  

If the question is who can break the Cosmere most, I think Hoid is the crossroad of Willing and Able, though any of the surviving Five Scholar's can tip those scales too with siblings to Nightblood.   

 

Based on actual known Characters with confirmed resources, Marsh is the only one left with a supply of Atium, and even WOB admits it's hard to counter that sort of precognition.  

[+Harrycrapper]

I think the God King of Hallandren is a good sleeper contender. He can take control of any Lifeless regardless of whether he has the proper commands, control hundreds of inanimate objects, doesn't need to speak to awaken/command objects, and can make awakened steel weapons like Azure's sword. He's also so Invested that he's likely immune to direct attacks from various Invested arts(for example, he likely cannot be lashed into the sky or soulcast). 

[teknopathetic]

44 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I think the God King of Hallandren is a good sleeper contender. He can take control of any Lifeless regardless of whether he has the proper commands, control hundreds of inanimate objects, doesn't need to speak to awaken/command objects, and can make awakened steel weapons like Azure's sword. He's also so Invested that he's likely immune to direct attacks from various Invested arts(for example, he likely cannot be lashed into the sky or soulcast). 

We gotta get the Godking a Nahel bond. 

[stonehand]

43 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I think the God King of Hallandren is a good sleeper contender. He can take control of any Lifeless regardless of whether he has the proper commands, control hundreds of inanimate objects, doesn't need to speak to awaken/command objects, and can make awakened steel weapons like Azure's sword. He's also so Invested that he's likely immune to direct attacks from various Invested arts(for example, he likely cannot be lashed into the sky or soulcast). 

Wholeheartedly agree there. WoB have confirmed Nightblood as being one of the most highly invested beings in the cosmere, having been "born" with 1000 breaths and eating more investigate since then. The GK, however, has access to...idk what was it like 50,000 breaths? So by definition he'd be 50,000 times more invested than a normal person? Sure, he didn't have any experience with that when he was finally able to use Commands, but Warbreaker is surely at least half a decade in the past by the time of RoW, so who k ows what he's capable of with a few years of practice.

[The Cosmere Unaware]

Ishar is up there

He has access to what is effectively freeform hemalurgy without the drawbacks and extras, has intricate knowledge of the magic system that is Surgebinding, that Odium thinks has so much potential he wants to use it before the other Shards get too much of a whiff of it, and has seen it rend apart an entire planet. He's scary. Particularly if his mind starts working again there's very little he cannot do or become.

Edited May 25, 2022 by The Cosmere Unaware

[Toaster Retribution]

I’m going to go with Kelsier. The guy has most likely made himself a Fullborn, and is thus nigh unkillable, but can figuratively nuke anything or anyone facing him in combat. He also knows a TON of stuff, arguably more than most, has access to countless minions through the Ghostbloods, and is also worshipped by at least two religions. His one negative is that he seems to be unable to physically leave Scadrial. 
 

48 minutes ago, The Cosmere Unaware said:

Ishar is up there

This is also a very good point, even though his insanity probably nerfs him a litte. 

[Duxredux]

Based on the prompt, I think it depends on what you consider to be power and the context that it is used. For example, do you consider Ashweather Cett to have been powerful? Breeze as an influencer? Dockson as the organizer that helped make Kelsier's dreams become reality? Raoden's optimism and belief in the good in people? We have a lot of 1 vs 1 fights to the death but that isn't the only power. I wouldn't call her the most powerful but Maare's wish to see a flower and the picture she had loved influenced people who went on to remake the world of ash.

In the end, I might choose Kelsier not because he is Fullborn, but because he has a knack for building himself a team and network of extremely competent allies. He is really good at motivating people to become their best, can convince seemingly random people to help him (Vin, Nazh, Fuzz), and he is fantastic at manipulating people into doing what he wants (Ire, Ati, the entire Luthadel Skaa populace). He learns fast, becoming a skilled enough Mistborn to defeat an Inquisitor in only two years, setting up Ruin to be taken down within a very short time of Ascending, and orchestrating the overthrow of the Final Empire with a few years of planning. His ability to take seemingly impossible tasks and breaking them down into manageable chunks and then get his team to believe that the impossible is possible, that ability to inspire is perhaps more powerful than his skills as a Mistborn. If he can't do it himself, he goes and finds someone who can. He's probably one of the best leaders in the Cosmere in that he inspires people to personally grow and innovate to make the Job possible. Being immortal and able to personally level a planet doesn't hurt either.

Hoid... is less good at getting people to like or trust him.

[SymphonianBookworm]

Hoid.

Just... Hoid.

You all know what I mean.

[Elegy]

As much as I (Kelsier fan for 12 years now) would love to say it's him, he's significantly restricted by the fact that he can't leave his planet. Same goes for Ishar, to some extent. It's probably Hoid from what we know, at least now that he's a Rosharan Lightweaver plus the Dawnshard business, he can do all sorts of dangerous stuff:

Quote

Questioner

Lightweavers, you're saying that they're gonna be able to do lasers and things in space era. Could a Lightweaver conceivably make a kugelblitz? It's when compressing enough light into one space that it makes a black hole.

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna say that that's beyond the power level of your average Lightweaver. But who knows? Good question. I've never heard that term before, that's kind of cool. That'd take a lot of Light.

Questioner

Isn't Hoid a Lightweaver now?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is a Lightweaver now, yes. But Hoid does like playing with fire. He should not be a Lightweaver. Hoid is too close to various things that happened with Dawnshards, he is playing with fire.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

If you count Shards, it's Harmony in terms of raw Investiture, but he can't really use it, so I don't think it really counts. If you go for "powerful" as in "most influential", it's easily Bavadin right now, from what we know and can guess.

[HSuperLee]

I suspect that we've not met them yet. As much as Shardworlds are going to have the highest amount of free investiture to lead to powerful individuals, there doesn't necessarily seem to be a direct correlation between quantity of investiture and efficacy of powers. For example, forgery is an immensely powerful invested art, yet its actually has a very low level of investiture. Thus I have reason to suspect we've not seen all the most powerful of the invested arts. Now, considering potential rather than realized power, I'd argue that Rsyn may have one of the greatest power potentials in the Cosmere, being one of the Dawnshards.

[cometaryorbit]

For characters we've seen using their powers on page / have a good idea of their power set (thus excluding reborn Kelsier as we don't really know what he has now), but including characters who are dead as of the newest books:

1. Highest Investiture (non-Shard): probably the Stormfather (by WoB probably even more Invested than Nightblood).

2. Greatest combat power: probably either TLR or Marsh (end of HoA and after) - Fullborn abilities or nearly so plus access to atium. TLR had more powers, but Marsh probably had all the combat relevant ones and might have a deadlier mindset, TLR didnt take fighting seriously

3. Largest world changing implications (non-Shard): Probably Ishar so far. Dalinars bondsmith powers, as a true Radiant, are theoretically more efficient than the Honorblade version, but he has way less knowledge/experience than Ishar.

4. Greatest political power: hmm. Probably the Lord Ruler given how absolute & long lasting his rule was (though he did eventually get overthrown). Ashravan (post healing) could rule a larger population but doesn't have the both god and secular monarch, immortal ruler, thing.

His political *skills* were not good, but *power* absolutely.

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Now, considering potential rather than realized power, I'd argue that Rsyn may have one of the greatest power potentials in the Cosmere, being one of the Dawnshards.

I think anyone with a Dawnshard plus an Invested Art to boost with it would be more powerful than anyone mentioned so far - maybe even more powerful in some ways than a Shard given that the Dawnshards were used in the Shattering.

But we haven't seen anyone like that yet. Rysn doesn't have an Invested Art yet and was told not to bond a spren.

[Elegy]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think anyone with a Dawnshard plus an Invested Art to boost with it would be more powerful than anyone mentioned so far - maybe even more powerful in some ways than a Shard given that the Dawnshards were used in the Shattering.

But we haven't seen anyone like that yet. Rysn doesn't have an Invested Art yet and was told not to bond a spren.

Hoid though!

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think Hoid actually holds/is a Dawnshard in any of his "on page" appearances, though he did a long time ago.

Once we get Dragonsteel and see that version of Hoid he might qualify.

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

For characters we've seen using their powers on page / have a good idea of their power set (thus excluding reborn Kelsier as we don't really know what he has now), but including characters who are dead as of the newest books:

1. Highest Investiture (non-Shard): probably the Stormfather (by WoB probably even more Invested than Nightblood).

2. Greatest combat power: probably either TLR or Marsh (end of HoA and after) - Fullborn abilities or nearly so plus access to atium. TLR had more powers, but Marsh probably had all the combat relevant ones and might have a deadlier mindset, TLR didnt take fighting seriously

3. Largest world changing implications (non-Shard): Probably Ishar so far. Dalinars bondsmith powers, as a true Radiant, are theoretically more efficient than the Honorblade version, but he has way less knowledge/experience than Ishar.

4. Greatest political power: hmm. Probably the Lord Ruler given how absolute & long lasting his rule was (though he did eventually get overthrown). Ashravan (post healing) could rule a larger population but doesn't have the both god and secular monarch, immortal ruler, thing.

His political *skills* were not good, but *power* absolutely.

1. Agreed, though he's limited by a lot of personal philosophic restraint as much as some specific realmic bounds.  And I suspect he (uniquely) cannot leave Roshar without significant ecological fallout, so he's likely trapped forever to some extent. There are some UnMade that could challenge his place; BAM acted as a primary shard's Investiture conduit just like the Stormfather, for example, and Im convinced he has a literal counterpart in an Everstorm voidspren.  I also think we should not underestimate the power of the Nightwatcher's ability to permanently manipulate Spiritwebs; such a thing could tip Power balances like few things we've seen.

2. Agreed.  Super Speed of mind and body, literal Temporal Manipulation, and full Precognition are together a difficult combination to overcome.  

3. Id argue it's not Ishar persay, it's just any knowledgeable wielder of the Bondsmith Honorblade.  Ishar himself and the other heralds are (currently) safer by virtue of being trapped on roshar, but imagine the Honorbloade in the hands of an amoral version of Khriss that just wants to see the Cosmerre burn.  And frankly, the Nightwatcher herself is probably capable of most and maybe all of the Bondsmith's Spiriweb tricks, and we know her modifications are permanent, which a Bondsmith may or may not be able to manage.  

4.  Wulfden the 1st is a contender by that scale too, I think.  If Jaddeth is a real being, Id say they win hands down over both by virtue of ruling a whole Religion via a series of militant Theocrats.  Early generation Ishar is probably on the podium entirely independent of his Investiture, as the leader during the Ashyn Migration and the nominal founder of the Knights Radiant as an organization.  

[Frustration]

Hoid

1. He is a former Dawnshard, giving him near perfect immortality, a lot of fortune, and a healing factor so strong even activly supressed he will heal a tooth in three days and shardblades mean nothing to him. Even Nightblood is only "possibly" able to kill him.
2. He is a Yolish Lightweaver and a Radiant Lightweaver, something Brandon says is "very dangerous" unto itself.
3. He is a Lersaium Mistborn, and probably a fullborn
4. He might have mikrokinesis
5. He has a lot of breath

Add to that his near endless political power, the fact that if he really wanted he could probably get his Dawnshard back, and the fact that he has a lot of items Brandon himself says he shouldn't and he is by far the most powerful non-shard in the cosmere.

No one else can really compare

[Elegy]

On 26.5.2022 at 6:34 AM, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think Hoid actually holds/is a Dawnshard in any of his "on page" appearances, though he did a long time ago.

Once we get Dragonsteel and see that version of Hoid he might qualify.

Yeah, but the WOB I linked proves that him having held a Dawnshard in the past still has immense consequences. Again:

Quote

Questioner

Lightweavers, you're saying that they're gonna be able to do lasers and things in space era. Could a Lightweaver conceivably make a kugelblitz? It's when compressing enough light into one space that it makes a black hole.

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna say that that's beyond the power level of your average Lightweaver. But who knows? Good question. I've never heard that term before, that's kind of cool. That'd take a lot of Light.

Questioner

Isn't Hoid a Lightweaver now?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is a Lightweaver now, yes. But Hoid does like playing with fire. He should not be a Lightweaver. Hoid is too close to various things that happened with Dawnshards, he is playing with fire.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

I don't think we need Dragonsteel to know he's beyond pretty much anyone we know of, except for Shards and maybe huge Splinters, in terms of what he's theoretically capacle of. He just can't actively hurt people, that's his problem.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Elegy