Odd detail in the Eila Stele

[Kvothe the Bloodless he/him]

So in the Eila Stele it describes how humans came to Roshar and the Dawnsingers gave them a home, but eventually the humans betrayed them. But there is a detail that seems a little out of place to me, and I feel like that means that it is important

Eila Stele:

Quote

They came from another world. Using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. We took them in, as commanded by our gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god. These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live. 

So it says that "their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind". The part about the gods makes sense, but the part about the "spren, stone and wind" seems strangely specific. I don't really understand why the author of the Eila Stele feels the need to specify that the betrayal went all the way through the stones and the wind, and that's why I'm curious. And how would the betrayal extend to the stones and the wind in the first place? Maybe this is me reading to much into it, but it feels like there's more to this subtle detail.

Any thoughts?

Edited May 11, 2022 by Kvothe the Bloodless

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

11 minutes ago, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

So it says that "their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind". The part about the gods makes sense, but the part about the "spren, stone and wind" seems strangely specific. 

This makes me think of the godspren- we know that the Stormfather for example was around long before Odium came. So he could be wind. Could the others be the Nightwatcher and the Sibling (having trouble remembering if the Sibling was around in some form before Urithiru or not). Or could the God of spren be Ba-Ado-Mishram before she was Unmade?

[Treamayne]

Well, we already knew the Singers felt betrayed because Spren started forming Nahel Bonds with Humans (not the same bond Singers have with spren in their gemhearts, but similar). I always took "Stone and Wind" to be Honor and Cultivation  - Honor in the Highstorms (Wind), Cultivation in the Land (stone) since it is implied that The Singers originally worshipped H&C when Odium followed humanity to Roshar; but when Humans started following Honor and Cultivation, the Singers started following Odium. . .

[Returned]

4 hours ago, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

The part about the gods makes sense, but the part about the "spren, stone and wind" seems strangely specific. I don't really understand why the author of the Eila Stele feels the need to specify that the betrayal went all the way through the stones and the wind, and that's why I'm curious. And how would the betrayal extend to the stones and the wind in the first place? Maybe this is me reading to much into it, but it feels like there's more to this subtle detail.

Any thoughts?

Of course the punctuation of the line might make this irrelevant, as the description is of the gods with a colon afterwards, suggesting that what follows is a list of those gods. Those were simply the things the Singers revered.

I think that there is still more to Roshar than we've been shown. In the stele, spren seem easy enough, as there is a line somewhere about humans providing more for them than the Singers could (I believe it was more intensity of emotion, which was more attractive to the spren). So the spren associated more with humans than with Singers.

Stone and wind being Cultivation and Honor could fit, especially with the reasoning provided by @Treamayne. Spren associated with those gods might also fit, like the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, but the association is less clear. Besides which those are already spren, so that would redundant. If I recall correctly the Singers existed on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation ever arrived there. If so then there may be other powers at play than just the Shards we're so familiar with in the Cosmere.

We also know that the Shin revere stone to the extent that they won't even walk on any that has been cut and worked, which has always been a detail that has lacked context. And there is an epigraph in WoR that says

Quote

The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millenia (WoR, chapter 83, epigraph)

I believe that the conventional interpretation of this is that the Ancient of Stones is Taln, also called Stonesinew (the timing and context are right for that to be the case), but we've also had a WoB saying that Taln never broke. Either Taravangian is wrong about Taln breaking and ushering in the Desolation (which is certainly possible), or that interpretation is off. And if the Ancient of Stones is someone or something we haven't seen yet it could be a reference matching the stone mentioned in the Eila Stele.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Returned

[Kvothe the Bloodless he/him]

4 hours ago, Returned said:

We also know that the Shin revere stone to the extent that they won't even walk on any that has been cut and worked

This was sort of my first thought when rereading the stele. My immediate reaction was that the mention of "stones" had to do with the shin. But, hearing some of your guys's reasons, I think the mention of stones and wind has a double meaning. First, stones symbolizes Cultivation and the wind symbolizes Honor. The second meaning is that betrayal of the stones and wind describes how the humans took over the rest of Roshar, where it is very rocky and highstorms come and go.

[Letryx13]

10 hours ago, Kvothe the Bloodless said:

So in the Eila Stele it describes how humans came to Roshar and the Dawnsingers gave them a home, but eventually the humans betrayed them. But there is a detail that seems a little out of place to me, and I feel like that means that it is important

Eila Stele:

So it says that "their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind". The part about the gods makes sense, but the part about the "spren, stone and wind" seems strangely specific. I don't really understand why the author of the Eila Stele feels the need to specify that the betrayal went all the way through the stones and the wind, and that's why I'm curious. And how would the betrayal extend to the stones and the wind in the first place? Maybe this is me reading to much into it, but it feels like there's more to this subtle detail.

Any thoughts?

This kind of connects with my theory about how the desolations actually started. The Eila Stele says humans betrayed them, but never specifically state what the humans did to betray them, kind of like how nobody knew exactly what the lost radiants did at the recreance.  I think what happened is that humans are much more naturally in tune with spren of honor and cultivation than the singers are, and because of that, spren can feed off of their emotions much more easily.  Because of that, the spren "abandoned" the singers for the humans.

The stone and wind part feels like a reference to Roshar itself.  You could probably substitute it for land and sky in regard to most worlds, and the meaning would hold the same.  If the spren are considered part of Roshar, then the singers probably felt that Roshar itself had betrayed them.  I think that jealousy is what started the desolations.

[Treamayne]

Well, we know that the Nahel Bond helps give Sapience to spren in the Physical Realm.

We also "know" that the Singer bond does not

• By "know", I mean that in all of Venli and Eshonai's POVs we have never seen interaction between a Singer and spren bonded in the Gemheart - though we have seen interaction between Venli and Timbre (even with Timbre in the Gemheart) - who share a Nahel Bond. . .

I imagine it being something like this:

• Humans arrive and are granted the territory in and around modern Shinovar; which is remade by Honor and Cultivation to have the soil and other elements from Ashyn (if that is where the "refugees" were coming from)
• Honor makes the Honorblades (possibly to mimic the Investiture from Ashyn the Humans had)
• Spren start to for nahel bonds, finding that the sapience it brings is a more rewarding symbiotic relationship that the current one with Singers
• Odium quiety "arrives" and begins to meddle
• Humanity, like it always does, is no longer happy with a small country and starts to invade other territories
• Spren begin to change the Nahel Bond to more closely mimic the Honorblades, giving humanity the edge in fighting for territory
• Odium, like an arms merchant, starts "helping" both sides just to escalate the wars
• Odium helps create the Regal Forms for Singers to counter surgebinding
• Honor forms the Oathpact - Singers are betrayed their original god chooses humans over them (when really, he's just trying to counter Odium - but they can;t know that); this also results in the Heralds and Fused
• Desolations begin. . .

Edited May 11, 2022 by Treamayne
Content/SPAG

[Olmund]

With regard to stone, it's worth mentioning that they may have revered the literal stone itself since the ancient singers (pre-Odium) had access to the stone's memory through their form of surgebinding (as we see when Venli "speaks with" the stone in Urithiru). It's very possible animism was big among the Singers back then, since they seem to have an eclectic notion of "gods."

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

42 minutes ago, Olmund said:

With regard to stone, it's worth mentioning that they may have revered the literal stone itself since the ancient singers (pre-Odium) had access to the stone's memory through their form of surgebinding (as we see when Venli "speaks with" the stone in Urithiru). It's very possible animism was big among the Singers back then, since they seem to have an eclectic notion of "gods."

This was my first association when I read RoW back to the Eila Stele's text

When Venli talks to the stones and they remember and have long memories. Plus remember that the Singers were present on Roshar before Honor/Cultivation ever arrived, so I think animism is 100% what they were doing before the Shard's various arrivals and usurpation of their worship

[cometaryorbit]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:56 AM, Olmund said:

With regard to stone, it's worth mentioning that they may have revered the literal stone itself since the ancient singers (pre-Odium) had access to the stone's memory through their form of surgebinding (as we see when Venli "speaks with" the stone in Urithiru). It's very possible animism was big among the Singers back then, since they seem to have an eclectic notion of "gods."

Yeah, losing that ability might be the betrayal of "stone and wind" (maybe there was a Dawnsinger form of Windrunning as well as Stoneshaping)?

On 5/11/2022 at 0:57 AM, Returned said:

We also know that the Shin revere stone to the extent that they won't even walk on any that has been cut and worked

I assumed that was a relic of the original treaty for humans to remain in Shinovar, where there's soil: "don't leave Shinovar and go to the stone landscapes" got corrupted to "don't walk on stones" as a cultural/religious taboo once knowledge of the historical treaty was lost.

But knowledge of Dawnsinger Stoneshaping might also have contributed to the idea of stone as sacred.

[Olmund]

24 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I assumed that was a relic of the original treaty for humans to remain in Shinovar, where there's soil: "don't leave Shinovar and go to the stone landscapes" got corrupted to "don't walk on stones" as a cultural/religious taboo once knowledge of the historical treaty was lost.

I like this idea quite a bit. It could easily have been adopted as a religious tennet because it's how they distinguished themselves morally from those who broke the treaty and moved further East.

[Weltall]

On 5/10/2022 at 10:57 PM, Returned said:

I believe that the conventional interpretation of this is that the Ancient of Stones is Taln, also called Stonesinew (the timing and context are right for that to be the case), but we've also had a WoB saying that Taln never broke. Either Taravangian is wrong about Taln breaking and ushering in the Desolation (which is certainly possible), or that interpretation is off.

There's a theory that one of the other Heralds died shortly before the events of the series, returned to Braize and broke before Taln could, which would fit with both the conventional interpretation and that WoB the Taln didn't break. So long as Taln was close to breaking, that part of the Diagram would still be correct though the interpretation of it could be mistake, which wouldn't be the first time that's happened. There just happens to be a Death Rattle that sounds a lot like that:

"The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me."

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, losing that ability might be the betrayal of "stone and wind" (maybe there was a Dawnsinger form of Windrunning as well as Stoneshaping)?

I assumed that was a relic of the original treaty for humans to remain in Shinovar, where there's soil: "don't leave Shinovar and go to the stone landscapes" got corrupted to "don't walk on stones" as a cultural/religious taboo once knowledge of the historical treaty was lost.

But knowledge of Dawnsinger Stoneshaping might also have contributed to the idea of stone as sacred.

To expand upon this, I think they're definitely referring to the stones themselves there. The spren bit might also be the basic non sapient spren that Singers rely on to change forms in addition to other spren. It's easy to think that the betrayal of spren is refering to the sapient spren like Syl. But I think the betrayal was twofold in that the sapient spren started preferring human bonds for the increased mental capacity they provided and the non sapient spren instinctively were drawn to humans' more vibrant emotions. Which would have made transforming much more difficult and likely led to tensions. In line with those two, I don't think the betrayal of wind is referring to Honor or the Stormfather, but the winds themselves. Syl refers to the winds at various points as if they were in some way sentient/alive. Specifically, the Kaladin asks if she had been with him since he was a child and she says "No, but the winds knew you, so I knew where to find you."(not sure I got that 100%, audiobook listener :))

[cometaryorbit]

I took "burdens of nine become mine" to refer to whatever Ishar did to pin the Oathpact on just Taln at the time of Aharietiam.

If one of the other Heralds broke, which is totally possible, I still don't think they'd be carrying the whole Oathpact the way Taln did.

The Diagram also says "the Desolation needs no usher", but talks about killing the Parshendi before "they can form a bridge". That strikes me as a bit contradictory. Is that 'forming a bridge' a way of 'ushering in' the Desolation?

But maybe something else would have eventually brought the Desolation if the Alethi had struck earlier in WoR and prevented the Parshendi from summoning the Everstorm?

Edited May 18, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Returned]

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I assumed that was a relic of the original treaty for humans to remain in Shinovar, where there's soil: "don't leave Shinovar and go to the stone landscapes" got corrupted to "don't walk on stones" as a cultural/religious taboo once knowledge of the historical treaty was lost.

This seems totally plausible and appropriate for the timescales involved. I hadn't thought about this before, but it requires fewer assumptions than some powerful, mystical being about which we know nothing save for this. You have changed my mind!

 

6 hours ago, Weltall said:

There's a theory that one of the other Heralds died shortly before the events of the series, returned to Braize and broke before Taln could, which would fit with both the conventional interpretation and that WoB the Taln didn't break. So long as Taln was close to breaking, that part of the Diagram would still be correct though the interpretation of it could be mistake, which wouldn't be the first time that's happened. There just happens to be a Death Rattle that sounds a lot like that:

"The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me."

That's a fair possibility: Taravangian has the right information, but draws the wrong conclusion only because of specific events which he couldn't deduce.

As for the "burdens of nine" comment, I've been growing more and more uncertain about it. It definitely sounds like something appropriate for Taln, trapped alone in the Oathpact. But at the same time I'm not sure it's sensible to say that he's carrying the madness of the other nine-- they all seem to be carrying their own so far, at least most of the time. He certainly bore their burden on Braize for a long time, but the madness now seems to me like a different thing.

And also, death rattles only describe the future, never the past, and by the time Taravangian is collecting them anything related to Aharietiam would be in the deep past. It's totally possible that the details are garbled and filtered through the knowledge of the person perceiving the future, but I don't think that we've seen the realization of this one yet.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Returned

[Weltall]

39 minutes ago, Returned said:

And also, death rattles only describe the future, never the past

Not actually true, while they aren't generally going to be about the past they're not limited to describing future events.

[Returned]

9 hours ago, Weltall said:

Not actually true, while they aren't generally going to be about the past they're not limited to describing future events.

Thanks, I hadn't seen that WoB before! I wonder how Moelach's effects work.

[Veez]

16 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The Diagram also says "the Desolation needs no usher", but talks about killing the Parshendi before "they can form a bridge". That strikes me as a bit contradictory. Is that 'forming a bridge' a way of 'ushering in' the Desolation?

Quote

There has to be an answer. What is the answer? Stop. The Parshendi. One of them. Yes they are the missing piece. Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge.

I think this is specifically refering to Rlain aka a Listener Radiant bonded to an Elightened spren, and so connected (Connected?) to all sides of the war. I don't think it's related to the one about ushering the Desolation.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Veez

[Letryx13]

18 hours ago, Weltall said:

There's a theory that one of the other Heralds died shortly before the events of the series, returned to Braize and broke before Taln could, which would fit with both the conventional interpretation and that WoB the Taln didn't break. So long as Taln was close to breaking, that part of the Diagram would still be correct though the interpretation of it could be mistake, which wouldn't be the first time that's happened. There just happens to be a Death Rattle that sounds a lot like that:

"The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me."

I'm pretty sure it wasn't any of the heralds breaking that triggered this desolation.  The Everstorm just provided a back door way around the Oathpact.  I don't remember where, but someone else posted about that. I think it was confirmed.

[Treamayne]

27 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm pretty sure it wasn't any of the heralds breaking that triggered this desolation.  The Everstorm just provided a back door way around the Oathpact.  I don't remember where, but someone else posted about that. I think it was confirmed.

Row Ch 73

Quote

 

You have no idea the power that awaits you, Venli, Ulim said to the Rhythm of Craving. In the old days, forms of power were reserved for the most special. The most valuable. They were strong, capable of amazing feats.

“Then how did we ever lose?” she asked.

Bah, it was a fluke. We couldn’t break the last Herald, and the humans found some way to pin the whole Oathpact on him. So we got stuck on Braize. Eventually the Unmade decided to start a war without us. That turned out to be exceedingly stupid. In the past, Odium granted forms of power, but Ba-Ado-Mishram thought she could do it. Ended up handing out forms of power as easily as Fused give each other titles, Connected herself to the entire singer species. Became a little god. Too little.

“I … don’t understand.”

I’ll bet you don’t. Basically, everyone relied way too much on an oversized spren. Trouble is, spren can get stuck in gemstones, and the humans figured this out. End result: Ba-Ado-Mishram got a really cramped prison, and everyone’s souls got seriously messed up.

It will take something big to restore the minds of the singers around the world. So we’re going to prime the pump, so to speak, with your people. Get them into stormform and pull the big storm over from Shadesmar. Odium thinks it will work, and considering he’s anything but a little god, we are going to do what he says.

 

 

[Letryx13]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Row Ch 73

 

I always took that as an explanation regarding the Everstorm restoring the singers. But since you brought up the idea of Ulim and Venli's conversations, I think there was another part where he mentions needing the Everstorm to pull the fused to Roshar. So yeah, that's how they did it, not breaking the heralds.

[Weltall]

The text in question says that Odium thinks it will work, which doesn't mean it actually did work the same way he expected it to. This is the guy who had his Shardic Murder Spree plans derailed by Tanavast and then staked a lot on his plans for Dalinar in OB and Urithiru in RoW and failed both times. He is, to paraphrase Rodney McKay, a very arrogant man who thinks all his plans will work.

More importantly there are two things that suggest more is going on here than just 'the Everstorm let Odium cheat'. First, the WoB where Brandon confirmed that Taln didn't break and that we'd eventually learn what happened postdates Rhythm of War by over half a year. If we had the answer in that book, Brandon wouldn't have needed to tell us that it's something we'll learn later. Second and perhaps more importantly, Taln returned to Roshar a full book (and a month or two in-universe) before the Everstorm was summoned. In other words, something happened first that let him return.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Weltall

[alder24]

On 19.05.2022 at 4:31 PM, Veez said:

I think this is specifically refering to Rlain aka a Listener Radiant bonded to an Elightened spren, and so connected (Connected?) to all sides of the war. I don't think it's related to the one about ushering the Desolation.

Not to Rlain, but i think it's about Eshonai, she is the only one that matters cause she begins to bond spren before taking Stormform. If she did become a Radient, Listeners would turn away from Venli and Odium and embrace Honor's way, preventing Everstorm from coming that time. "Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge." Destroying Parshendi did form a bridge for Odium.

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not to Rlain, but i think it's about Eshonai, she is the only one that matters cause she begins to bond spren before taking Stormform. If she did become a Radient, Listeners would turn away from Venli and Odium and embrace Honor's way, preventing Everstorm from coming that time. "Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge." Destroying Parshendi did form a bridge for Odium.

I think the Diagram meant to prevent the Listeners from gaining the power of Voidspren, and summoning the Everstorm.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I think the Diagram meant to prevent the Listeners from gaining the power of Voidspren, and summoning the Everstorm.

No, even Diagram knew it was inevitable

Quote

Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia

It's purpose was to establish Taravangian as a ruler/representative of Roshar so he could made deal with Odium saving parts of it - at least in Taravangian's mind, Diagram real goal was to guide him into ascension.

Quote

You must become king. Of Everything.

The Diagram also mention how to find and destroy Radients, probably seeing them as opposition to Taravangian's efforts to unite Roshar. Naming them as a danger.

Quote

One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture.

That's why I thing that quote below refers to Radients, as coming of Desolation is nesesery for Taravangian's plans, Radients appearing among Parshendi would prevent Everstorm from coming - which ironically he needs to become "king of everything" and save them.

Quote

There has to be an answer. What is the answer? Stop. The Parshendi. One of them. Yes they are the missing piece. Push for the Alethi to destroy them outright before this one obtains their power. It will form a bridge.

The "missing piece" could probably refer to the Willshapers, as they were nowhere to be found among humans.