Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Frustration]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

 

It seemed as if the StormFaker got some kind of boost when the herald died? I am thinking something like when a certain mistborn character dies and get a bit of a flash of insight. 

But not only was that not the Stormfather dying it wasn't even a real death.

[+Harrycrapper]

2 minutes ago, duckbox said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a highstorm happening during the prologue scene, or one being referenced on that day by anyone via any of the different editions of the prologue? 

Planning a huge feast on a day with a due highstorm seems a bit silly?

The Stormfather can only (apparently) send visions during a storm can he not?

You raise an interesting point. I believe Dalinar can view the visions whenever/wherever he wants, but if he wants to show them to someone else, a Highstorm needs to be near them. So, it's technically possible for Gavilar to have been in a vision, but I'm not sure if Dalinar is able to do that because he progressed pretty far in his Oaths or if he just needed to know he could do it. I mean Gavilar isn't even really Bonded to the Stormfather, that really doesn't seem like it should be possible.

[Windrunner2319]

4 minutes ago, duckbox said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a highstorm happening during the prologue scene, or one being referenced on that day by anyone via any of the different editions of the prologue? 

Planning a huge feast on a day with a due highstorm seems a bit silly?

The Stormfather can only (apparently) send visions during a storm can he not?

I can't recall off the top of my head, but if there was a reference to one, it would most likely be in Eshoni's prologue. I don't think there was.

[teknopathetic]

On 3/30/2022 at 4:12 PM, Frustration said:

But not only was that not the Stormfather dying it wasn't even a real death.

Perhaps a magical connection of souls to a Bondsmith herald might have some nifty effects? I think we need to be a little more open-minded here about what a God-Herald famous for being crafty might be capable of. 

If the Stormfather acts differently, talks differently, has different motivations, is shown to have a different human aspect, and is even described as being weirdly inconsistent by Gavilar, the most likely explanation is that this is a different entity. Every aspect of this StormFaker is different. What is that shiny spren light? Even if it is regualr stormfather, why is it not there sometimes? That is a clear difference from Dalinar's version. Why did we never hear anything like "son of honour" nor any "rumbling" etc etc. None of the Storm-ism ever occurred.

And he lied! A lot! Syl HATES lies, and she is the ancient daughter. Lying is not of Honour, and this Stormfather is very into lying. 

In my opinion, it is much more work to explain a theory where these are the same two Stormfathers. There are just way way too many red flags here for it not to be something the reader is supposed to pick up. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by teknopathetic

[duckbox]

3 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

You raise an interesting point. I believe Dalinar can view the visions whenever/wherever he wants, but if he wants to show them to someone else, a Highstorm needs to be near them. So, it's technically possible for Gavilar to have been in a vision, but I'm not sure if Dalinar is able to do that because he progressed pretty far in his Oaths or if he just needed to know he could do it. I mean Gavilar isn't even really Bonded to the Stormfather, that really doesn't seem like it should be possible.

Yep, I just double-checked. Dalinar can revisit the visions at his leisure whenever he became a Bondsmith/bonded with the Stormfather. Anyone else would have to wait for a storm.

This would either mean that if it is the Stormfather and there was no storm, Gavilar was bonded to the Stormfather? I really really doubt this. Then again, he could have been which added extra fuel to the Stormfathers objections to a bond with Dalinar/others. Weak take, but possible.

Stormfaker becoming more and more real in my eyes.

[teknopathetic]

2 minutes ago, duckbox said:

Yep, I just double-checked. Dalinar can revisit the visions at his leisure whenever he became a Bondsmith/bonded with the Stormfather. Anyone else would have to wait for a storm.

This would either mean that if it is the Stormfather and there was no storm, Gavilar was bonded to the Stormfather? I really really doubt this. Then again, he could have been which added extra fuel to the Stormfathers objections to a bond with Dalinar/others. Weak take, but possible.

Stormfaker becoming more and more real in my eyes.

The StormFaker says that they are not bonded yet in the Prologue. 

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Perhaps a magical connection of souls to a Bondsmith herald might have some nifty effects? I think we need to be a little more open-minded here about what a God-Herald famous for being crafty might be capable of. 

If the Stormfather acts differently, talks differently, manifests with a different shiny light, has different motivations, is shown to have a different human aspect, and is even described as being weirdly inconsistent by Gavilar, the most likely explanation is that this is a different entity. Every aspect of this StormFaker is different. What is that shiny spren light? That is a clear difference from Dalinar's version. Why did we never hear anything like :son of honour" etc etc. None of the Storm-ism ever occured. And he lied! A lot! Syl HATES lies, and she is the Stormfather's daughter! 

In my opinion, it is much more work to explain a theory where these are the same two Stormfathers. There are just way way too many red flags here for it not to be something the reader is supposed to pick up. 

They speak the same way. Both rumble with disapproval. Both are full of themselves, and he complains before doing what Gavilar asked, just as the Stormfather does with Dalinar.

The Stormfather says in the prolouge that when he finds his next candidate he will treat them differently.

 

And on top of this what does anyone have to gain from impersonating the Stormfather?

[duckbox]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

The StormFaker says that they are not bonded yet in the Prologue. 

Thank you, this is why I need a written version!

[+Harrycrapper]

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The StormFaker says that they are not bonded yet in the Prologue. 

Whether he is the Stormfather or not, the entity Gavilar was working with was also a proven liar. 

[Wandering Shade]

One thing to remember is that this is a rough draft. Things are subject to change here. Specific wording of phrases and such. The meaning is probably going to stay the same, or at least the meaning that Brandon takes from the phrasing (because fans often misinterpret what the author was trying to imply).

With that being said, I think this is actually the Stormfather. We have WOBs which state that Gavilar was bonded to the Stormfather and for an extended period of time, for longer than Dalinar has been, though he never progressed in his oaths. That's the only way Gavilar could be seeing the visions, given what we know about them so far.

Granted, the Stormfather is acting very out of character for himself here, but I think that can be chocked up to the fact that the SF says that he's going to be treating his next bonded person very differently and to this being a rough draft. Its possible that Brandon forgot that the SF shouldn't know some things that he does right now, or that the Stormfather has been lying to Dalinar as well as Gavilar for all this time.

[the_archduke]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And on top of this what does anyone have to gain from impersonating the Stormfather?

Ishar gets a replacement for his spot in the Oathpact?

And, Ishar is our resident expert on screwing with Connection.  If anyone could do what the Stormfaker is promising, it would be Ishar using Connection and his Bondsmith powers.

[Serack]

Just now, duckbox said:

Yep, I just double-checked. Dalinar can revisit the visions at his leisure whenever he became a Bondsmith/bonded with the Stormfather. Anyone else would have to wait for a storm.

At the beginning of chapter 56 of Oathbringer it says,

Quote

His control over these vsions was increasing beyond even what the Stormfather assumed possible.  Today, by holding their hands, he had brought Navani and Jashah in without a highstorm.

Later it says:

Quote

While Dalnar had brought Navani and Jasnah by touch, he had asked the Stormfather to bring in Yanagawn.  The highstorm currently raged in Azir.  

 

[adouloumis]

Ishar is able to summon a perpendicularity in RoW and the Stormfather is unsure as to how he does it. It could of course be the Bondsmith Honorblade but it seems to me Ishar has access to a large splinter of Honor or even the Stormfather himself without somehow the Stormfather knowing it. Though he does try to steal Dalinars connection so maybe that is not right. 

I reread the RoW scene and I found nothing of note to support the StormFaker is Ishar theory except a vague dislike between the two. 

 

However it seems that Ishars deterioration of mental health is recent. The rest of the heralds consider him the sane one, so it could be that it started after this event. 

[Serack]

4 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Whether he is the Stormfather or not, the entity Gavilar was working with was also a proven liar. 

redditor RoboChrist had some great thoughts on this:

Quote

Gavilar shares Dalinar's flaw; they are both excessively confident to the point of hubris. They both tend to assume that the first reasonable explanation they think of is the only explanation, and once they reach a conclusion they never reexamine their assumptions or check to see if they've made a mistake. At least not until after there are catastrophic consequences.

Dalinar was sure that the Almighty told him to trust Sadeas. Gavilar couldn't believe that he was meeting with Heralds.

Without seeing his reactions to the visions from start to finish, we don't know for sure that Gavilar didn't simply misunderstand the messages from Honor and the Stormfather. Maybe he asked Honor "Will I become a new Herald?" right before Honor mused to himself "Yes, you must unite them!"

I think Ishar or someone else was meeting with Gavilar and impersonating the Stormfather on that day, but I'm sure a lot of the 'lies' were ones that Gavilar told himself without realizing it.

 

[+Harrycrapper]

1 minute ago, adouloumis said:

However it seems that Ishars deterioration of mental health is recent. The rest of the heralds consider him the sane one, so it could be that it started after this event. 

I never trusted the other Heralds assessment of Ishar, they're insane too. 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Ishar gets a replacement for his spot in the Oathpact?

If that was all he wanted why all the pretence around saying the words and why does he regret choosing Gavilar?

Why doesn't he just do it?

3 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

And, Ishar is our resident expert on screwing with Connection.  If anyone could do what the Stormfaker is promising, it would be Ishar using Connection and his Bondsmith powers.

He didn't have his blade until recently.

Even if you ignore the timing of the Unmade Ishar only began his experiments recently.

1 minute ago, Harrycrapper said:

I never trusted the other Heralds assessment of Ishar, they're insane too. 

My thoughts exactly.

[teknopathetic]

5 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

I never trusted the other Heralds assessment of Ishar, they're insane too. 

I think the Stormfather even says "I never liked Ishar" 

[adouloumis]

So about Ishar's motive we know this:

 

I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

—The Stormfather

 

 

For him to die really, he would need to be out of the Oathpact. Until Jezrien at least. 

 

 

[+Harrycrapper]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

I think the Stormfather even says "I never liked Ishar" 

I mean, I'm pretty sure he was pivotal in the destruction of Ashyn, no one should like that guy.

[KandraAllomancer]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He didn't have his blade until recently.

 

Interestingly, in chapter 111 of RoW, Dalinar seems to recognize Ishar's blade, wondering if he's seen it already.

That being said, I agree that it is the Stormfather that is talking to Gavilar. If Ishar wanted to replace Taln, he probably could have used Gavilar for that even without his consent. I expect some shenanigans with Ishar's blade to be a vital part of book 5 plot, though.

On an unrelated note, chapter 15 of WoK has this fragment of (in-world) Way of Kings that seems relevant to Gavilar's and Taln's situation:

Quote

I once saw a spindly man carrying a stone larger than his head upon his back. He stumbled beneath the weight, shirtless under the sun, wearing only a loincloth. He tottered down a busy thoroughfare. People made way for him. Not because they sympathized with him, but because they feared the momentum of his steps. You dare not impede one such as this.

The monarch is like this man, stumbling along, the weight of a kingdom on his shoulders. Many give way before him, but so few are willing to step in and help carry the stone. They do not wish to attach themselves to the work, lest they condemn themselves to a life full of extra burdens.

I left my carriage that day and took up the stone, lifting it for the man. I believe my guards were embarrassed. One can ignore a poor shirtless wretch doing such labor, but none ignore a king sharing the load. Perhaps we should switch places more often. If a king is seen to assume the burden of the poorest of men, perhaps there will be those who will help him with his own load, so invisible, yet so daunting.

 

[cometaryorbit]

He might not have been evil pre-madness, though. I mean, the Oathpact seems pretty self-sacrificing*, and the Stormfather makes it sound like it was not just voluntary, but initiated by the Heralds (they "went to Honor").

I wonder if Ashyn wasn't basically the magical version of an industrial accident.

*(Sure, the torture part wasn't expected, but they would still be stuck on the planet of their enemies, leaving all the non-Heralds they knew behind forever.)

[Frustration]

I'm very intrested in the words the Stormfather wants Gavilar to speak.

Apparently

Quote

"Give it to me. Now. I need it."

Is close, does anyone remember anything in The Way of Kings quotes that's even remotly close?

[+ShardlessVessel]

14 minutes ago, adouloumis said:

I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

This reminds me of Ishamael from the Wheel of Time. I wonder if they share more than a couple of syllables in their name.

[mathiau]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Another connection to Ishar being the Stormfaker:

Coppermind:
The nations of Tukar and Emul have been in the state of on-and-off conflict for centuries, with the main point of contention being the city of Sesemalex Dar.^[10] The latest iteration of this conflict was Eighty's War, which at the time of the True Desolation had been going on for six years.^[11] The war was likely initiated by the Tukari god-priest, Tezim, who came into power around the same time. 

Six years? Isnt that exactly when the Vengence pact started? This really lines up with Ishar IMO. Ishar abandons the Kholin's and decided to be his own God-King in Tukar. Those dates are near exact. It explains why Ishar suddenly goes active. He lost Gavilar and knows that a herald has died. Ishar has to move fast because his timeline got messed up. 

Honestly that seems more like a clue that Ishar's madness started around the moment the Herald died

46 minutes ago, duckbox said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a highstorm happening during the prologue scene, or one being referenced on that day by anyone via any of the different editions of the prologue? 

Planning a huge feast on a day with a due highstorm seems a bit silly?

The Stormfather can only (apparently) send visions during a storm can he not?

At oath 0? Yes.

20 minutes ago, adouloumis said:

So about Ishar's motive we know this:

 

I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

—The Stormfather

 

 

For him to die really, he would need to be out of the Oathpact. Until Jezrien at least. 

 

 

Quote

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.

—Observed on Palaheses 1173, collected secondhand and later reported to the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a wealthy lighteyes.^[

I don't think Taln would wish his own death

[teknopathetic]

25 minutes ago, adouloumis said:

So about Ishar's motive we know this:

 

I… have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

—The Stormfather

 

 

For him to die really, he would need to be out of the Oathpact. Until Jezrien at least. 

 

 

We have our motive for why Ishar would hijack the visions and get Gavilar to unwittingly betray humanity! 
 

I think you’ve added the biggest missing peice. If you combine this with the StormFaker’s desire to make new heralds, it is almost undeniable. 
 

Te Stormfather of Syl, Kal, and Dalinar have never shown any such intention. Ishar has shown such an intention. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by teknopathetic