What if the Fjordell Empire annexed Arelon?

[+ShardlessVessel]

The title is actually a red herring, as I hope the tags imply. The discussion I want to start is regarding a question that I've wanted to ask Brandon for a while, but I don't think I'll ever get the opportunity - so let's discuss for ourselves, yes?

What exactly determines who gets which magic system? We know that being born in a given territory gives you a Connection to the symbols of that territory, but what classifies as a territory? Is it geographical or geopolitical? Is an Elantrian an inhabitant of the kingdom of Arelon or an inhabitant of the surroundings of Elantris? If the borders between nations were to change - that is, if an empire were to annex a kingdom, or a kingdom were to be split into multiple nations, would the magic be affected in some way?

If the Fjordell Empire annexed Arelon, would AonDor still work? And if it did, would it work in the same way? My gut instinct is yes to both of those questions, because we know that both the Fjordell and Rose empires seem to have multiple magic systems within them, but I'm not certain. The Dor exists in the Cognitive Realm, so it would make sense for it to reflect perceived distinctions between locations rather than spatial organization.

[Frustration]

The chasm wan't a change in any geopolitical boundaries, but it had a sever impact on AonDor

It seems to be mostly goegraphical.

[+ShardlessVessel]

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The chasm wan't a change in any geopolitical boundaries, but it had a sever impact on AonDor

It seems to be mostly goegraphical.

That's a good point. I guess another angle would be to consider whether a geopolitical change could also affect the Dor. Again, because Cognitive Realm and Perception.

It's probably entirely geographical, however.

[Primeival Chaos he/him]

Basically, Odium fought and killed Devotion and Dominion here. Their combined powers (the Dor) somehow got into the Cognitive Realm. Because the Cognitive Realm has actual locations, certain magics only work in those locations where the specific concentrated powers of the Dor are.

As a side note, the untamed power of the Dor in Sel's Cognitive Realm is why it is so hard and dangerous to move on and off of Sel.

I would guess that more connection to that specific location of the Dor is how who does what magic is decided

[+ShardlessVessel]

2 minutes ago, Primeval Chaos said:

Basically, Odium fought and killed Devotion and Dominion here. Their combined powers (the Dor) somehow got into the Cognitive Realm. Because the Cognitive Realm has actual locations, certain magics only work in those locations where the specific concentrated powers of the Dor are.

As a side note, the untamed power of the Dor in Sel's Cognitive Realm is why it is so hard and dangerous to move on and off of Sel.

I would guess that more connection to that specific location of the Dor is how who does what magic is decided

I know all of that, my question is in how the lines between Selish dominions are divided. Kingdom borders, or geographical coincidence? Perhaps a bit of both?

[CrypticSpren he/him]

I'd imagine it has to be both. We know for a fact that geographical features matter at least to some degree, because of the chasm. We also know that one can be taken by the Shaod without actually being in Arelon since Galladon's father lived in Duladel proper, so the territories must not be strictly geopolitical.

However, as you said, the shape of the cognitive realm is shaped by people's perceptions. But geopolitical borders aren't the only things that people perceive as groupings. I personally think that if Fjordell annexed Arelon, the two magic systems would remain distinct so long as the Aonic people thought of themselves as Aonic people.

[Treamayne]

If you think back to Shai and Emporer's Soul, she says something to the effect of "the wall thinks of itself as a whole over time, the longer it is considered that way" [paraphrase]

I would guess that if geopolitical boundaries changed, you wouldn't see much change in investiture geography until/unless the people living there started viewing the new situation as "normal." the text implies that Hrovell has been a province of Fjorden long enough that they consider themselves Fjordell (and long enough to develop a dialect of the language); but they are still distinct enough to have their own investiture (the potion thing) so it doesn't seem to be a quick change, if there is any change at all.

[Zapata]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

If you think back to Shai and Emporer's Soul, she says something to the effect of "the wall thinks of itself as a whole over time, the longer it is considered that way" [paraphrase]

I would guess that if geopolitical boundaries changed, you wouldn't see much change in investiture geography until/unless the people living there started viewing the new situation as "normal." the text implies that Hrovell has been a province of Fjorden long enough that they consider themselves Fjordell (and long enough to develop a dialect of the language); but they are still distinct enough to have their own investiture (the potion thing) so it doesn't seem to be a quick change, if there is any change at all.

Hrovell is also considered a backwater which is isolated from much of the rest of the Empire. The Coppermind says this: 

Quote

It is located in the rural southeast of the Fjordell Empire, so they have very little knowledge of what is happening in the world outside their nation.

That (plus their defiance of Shu-Dereth in favor of the Jeskeri Mysteries) seems to me that they still consider themselves to be separate from Fjordell in several ways.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:25 PM, ShardlessVessel said:

I know all of that, my question is in how the lines between Selish dominions are divided. Kingdom borders, or geographical coincidence? Perhaps a bit of both?

It's possible that the Dor is unevenly spread through the cognitive realm, with specific nodes where it is very strong, and so invested in a certain way.

[+ShardlessVessel]

1 minute ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

It's possible that the Dor is unevenly spread through the cognitive realm, with specific nodes where it is very strong, and so invested in a certain way.

I've thought about this. One theory that I had is that the symbols correspond to the shape of the CR itself. Where there's water at sea level, it's a rocky surface, but where there's deep water there are tall hills. Where there's land, there are holes in the black rock; the taller the landscape, the deeper the depressions in the stone.

My idea is that on Sel the Dor takes the place of the beads from Roshar, and the lines of the Aons correspond to deep cavities where the Dor falls (like the mountain range to the east) or tall obstructions that block the Dor (like the sea to the north, or Lake Alonoe). That would mean that it's purely geographical, aside from the matter of cognitive activity.

I'd have to know the base symbols of other nations' magic systems to substantiate this hypothesis, though. I'm going off the fact that Aon Aon is shaped by a sea, a mountain range, a lake and a seismic fault line, all of which would correspond to deep elevations or deep depressions in the CR.

[cometaryorbit]

My guess is that it's geographical. The Selish System essay talks about the land itself being Invested. It often lines up with political boundaries since natural features (e.g. the mountains and sea for Arelon) often define political boundaries, but i think that's less causal and more both the politics and the Dor being affected by the geography.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I have always thought of it as the Cognitive "whole" of a geopolitical region, which includes the geography, culture, customs, as well as the affinities of those nations for others. hence why a Teod can be taken by the Shaod if they are in Arelon. Because Teod and Arelon are Cognitively aligned with their religion and their political ties.

[StanLemon]

Considering Elantris itself predates the country it resides in, I don't think political borders matter much at all. Maybe a small influence on the people that can use the magic system of the area but I think that's about it

[+ShardlessVessel]

49 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Considering Elantris itself predates the country it resides in, I don't think political borders matter much at all. Maybe a small influence on the people that can use the magic system of the area but I think that's about it

That's a good point, but it's possible that the area in which AonDor is effective could be different in the past, i.e. if the kingdoms were different during the time of the construction of the city.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I think it's purely geographical and political borders do not affect the magic at all. The magic is tied to the land, not the people there. A Scadrian couple could come to Arelon and have a child, and that child could then become an Elantrian separately from any Scadrian powers they may have inherited. Perception, so far as we have seen it, only ever affects what you specifically can do, in terms of Invested Arts. People thinking about magic a specific way just doesn't change it the same way perception changes other things. If you wholeheartedly believe you can no longer draw Aons for some reason, then you will be unable to even if you try. But if a large group of people other than you believe you can't draw Aons, that doesn't make a difference to your ability at all.

The only way I can see perception changing the magic systems would be if everyone had such a warped perception of what the land looked like for so long that the entire Cognitive Realm shifted and the Dor moved around, effectively having the same effect as the Reod but instead in the Cognitive Realm. If the Fjordell empire invaded Arelon and the Aonic people of Arelon wholeheartedly accepted the Fjordell identity and culture and began calling themselves Fjordell rather than Aonic, even that would have no impact on AonDor or the Elantrians so long as people are still being born in the land to have the necessary Connections to be taken by the Shaod.